Technology, Connected - AI Will Never Be Conscious - Federico Faggin, Irreducible (Chapter 6)

Episode Date: May 6, 2025

In Chapter 6 of Irreducible, by Federico Faggin, Mark and Jeremy get into what makes living cells tick and why machines will never be conscious.What is “live information” and how does it blend matter, energy, and data into life? How can machines be alive if they don't know, if they can't know what it's like to be aware? How can AI be conscious when it can't feel? Please enjoy the show. And share with a curious friend. --Join the book club: www.thinkingonpaper.xyz-- Chapters(00:00) Introduction to Irreducible (02:54) Exploring the Nature of Life(05:54) Biology Vs Information(09:04) Consciousness and Free Will(12:10) The Hard Problem of Consciousness(15:12) The Future of AI and Consciousness(18:03) Science Fiction and Human Experience(20:52) Differences Between Cells and Computers(27:01) Conclusion and Reflections on Consciousness

Disrupt us and Curious Minds, booklovers. You tuned into Thinking on Paper Book Club. We're reading Irreducible by Federico Fryghan. Consciousness, Life, Computers and Human Nature. But before we get into Chapter 6, I have an urgent news update from Thinking on Paper. We've just wrapped interviewing Kevin Kelly, ladies and gentlemen. Kevin Kelly, founder of Wired, author, father, thinker, futurist. Since the 1990s, he's been at the avant-garde, the forefront of all tech revolution.

He's been there giving advice. casting his opinions, describing the future. We interviewed him. So wherever you're listening to this, click on the previous episode and listen to that and let us know what you think. Kevin Kelly. Plugging the show, Jeremy. There you go.

So irreducible. Chapter 6. Life. What is life, Jeremy? Well, I'm going to tease our Kevin Kelly episode where you basically flip the pages and you ask Kevin Kelly to stop on his book and we read a passage of there. I don't know that we can... How much do you think we can talk about Kevin Kelly in this episode of the Thinking on Paper Book Club

before people go, enough of Kevin Kelly, I want to know about consciousness AI and what it means to be human. I say we push the boundary. I say we push the boundary. All right. So the nature of life, chapter six, a lot of interesting themes are coming up. A lot of things are connecting on one pole being the quantum, being quantum coupled with the idea of free will and consciousness, potentially, dare I say, being fundamental. But then going back to the macro level, the classical level and what that means via animate slash inanimate. I'm kicking it, kicking it down the line, molecules in DNA, stars in the galaxy,

Neil deGrasse Tyson added a nice little note just to get us thinking about the bigness and the smallness and the smallness and the bigness. What roped you in to your chapter six aha moment? The nature of life. The nature of life, what is life? That's why I began with that. I'm going to stick with that.

And I'm going to ask the listeners to comment below with what you think life is. really about. He begins with a few quotes. We have Charlie Chaplin. We have George Louis Borghese. If it is a journey, if it is a dream, if it is awaited, if it is a plan that takes place day after day. And you do not notice it except by looking backwards this life, which is too good to be meaningless. So again, it's all about organic life and consciousness. And he's trying to connect the dots between what it means to be conscious and life. And essentially, he's just building up the argument over and over again for why AI and why machine.

genes will never be conscious because they're not organic matter. Life is dynamic. Life is holistic. Right back to Kevin Kelly again, listeners. Kevin Kelly has a very opposite opinion as our author and host of Irreducible. So if you want to hear the opposite side of what this guy thinks, listen to the Kevin Kelly episode. Yeah, because he defined consciousness as a spectrum, didn't he, where AI will be conscious,

but it won't be consciousness the same as. hours, which is kind of what Frederico's getting into here when he's talking about paramecium and he's talking about amylase and cyanobacteria and biomolecules and how they are kind of conscious note. So cyanobacteria, I learned about them a long time ago and just the idea that burping bacteria created the work, the world that we live in right now, like literally these bacteria exhaling and creating, helping to create the air that we breathe. breathe right now. So if that doesn't tie you together into that we're all kind of made of the same

stuff and there are bigger things that play than just us. But let's let's dive into this. This one idea that I wrote down, the idea that biology is becoming more about information than biochemistry. And that got me thinking to what he was calling live information and how we use live information as you know, as animate organisms versus the information that happens within inanimate computers. What did you think about that? The whole... Just the clarification for the listeners in the last chapter, Federico outlined his, what he calls live information, which Jeremy has just referred to,

and he calls it matter plus energy plus information, and that is only possible in live organic matter. That also pointed back to DNA and DNA basically being recipes for producing the things the small things that were built and made of. So that's interesting. When you think about it, not being all about these biochemical processes, is actually the information required to induce the catalysts

into producing the processes. I think that's a theory that's been around for the last 20 years. I think he references that it's gaining more and more ground today. Back to the callback to computers can't give birth to other computers, which conjures the funniest images in my brain of robots in the labor room. But here's what I picked out of that. Humans built from the inside out.

Literally, like every small piece of us contains the information to build the whole of us. And then computers being outside in, there are these pieces and parts that get kind of cobbled together and then connected and organized with software. One more thing on that that I thought was pretty cool. Back to the human side, cells are made of dynamic quantum matter.

And computers, the pieces of computers, are made from permanent classical matter. So there's that quantum classical discussion. Friends, Mark, I got a question for you. What can these listeners do to help support us and continue this mission of delivering groundbreaking content, unique insights, and generating what tech means for us now and in the future? Well, if we're going to get Sam Altman, if we're going to get SpaceX, if we're going to do a show from NASA, we need more likes, we need more subscribers, we need more energy. and I know the people are listening to this or watching this, wherever they are, whoever they are, they're full of that because they think on paper. So like, subscribe.

Help us. I don't have a question for you in there, but I'm just, it's helping me continue to differentiate between man and machine. Well, that's why we do the book club, Jeremy, so you can think in real time and let those thoughts percolate and digest and come to the surface. And this book, so call back again to ladies and gentlemen, we interviewed Kevin Kelly this week. If you want to listen to that, check it out. But one of the first questions we asked Kevin Kelly was the role of nature within technology, the role of technology within nature. And I asked that question because I spend a lot of time in nature.

And a lot of this chapter wasn't particularly novel to me. I mean, life is dynamic. Life is holistic. Okay. There is no permanent reality except for the reality of change. It is important to recognize irreducible existence of an individual consciousness in every living organism. For example, we cannot explain the coherent and intelligent behavior of a paramasicist. them in a widely unpredictable environment without there being a central creative function that coordinates its actions as a unit.

Just as we have consciousness and free will, so every cell in our body must also share the same properties. He's referred to this, alluded to this before. I like it. I agree with it. I think that anyone who grew up watching Star Wars probably agrees with that. This is basically describing a life force within everything, within the cell, within. But as a fundamental element of nature. I don't know. It's what Star Wars is.

Let's on. Eh, I mean, is it? That's essentially what the force is. He's doing that thing of over-complicating simple ideas. That's where I'm going with this. He's not the first person to say there is one universal, just as we have consciousness and free will. So every cell in our body must also share the same properties.

This is possible because the essence of the whole is present in each of its parts. Most people understand this oneness, this interconnectedness, this holistic system. of what it means to be alive and conscious in this today. So cells with free will, like, so this, like the cell, one of the cells on my cheek has free will to participate in the ecosystem that is my face in my body and me, make choices on its own. Is that what he's saying? I don't know if I consciousness and free will, that gets, that gets funky, right?

So I am subscribing to the idea. And again, I keep calling back to lights on audio documentary. Anika Harris, you know, a lot of her position is that consciousness is fundamental, meaning, you know, you can't ask more questions about it. It's an element that is just is. And it exists in all things as a piece of all things. On the free will, does that thing on your face have free will? Are we confusing our free will with the free will of a cell? Is there some kind of spectrum of free will?

Here's the challenging thing about it, kind of the hard problem. I think it's the references the hard problem of consciousness maybe. The idea that we can't observe someone else's consciousness. I can't sit there with my clipboard and my white coat and observe what your consciousness is from an objective perspective. It's locked within. It's an inside out thing. And it's something that I can't study about you, which makes it so difficult. Meaning you can't look under a microscope and look at a cell and look at a mitochondria within a cell and be like,

well, let's see what the consciousness activity is going on with this particular cell today. And what does that even mean? Like literally, what does that even mean? It's our perception, our organization of sensory inputs and are stitching together of a human experience. Maybe that is kind of what consciousness is. I don't know. It's really, it's really a big bag to unpack, but it's one that I'm interesting, I'm interested to continue to explore. Like I'm pretty, pretty driven to kind of figure that thing out, but it's tough. It's the hard problem. Consciousness is what gives perception and understanding to the organism,

while free will allows it to act as a unified entity within its own intention based on conscious comprehension. So comprehension again, he references as the difference. Computers can't really comprehend something according to our host and author. But if you think about like a computer with sensory inputs and those sensory inputs, bring an information to the computer and the software makes, makes it seem like the computer's making a decision where it is really just subscribing to a rule that's very deterministic, right? So you can pre-program some stuff, but you can't pre-program this idea of consciousness. It just happens. And it just is ever, ever revealing itself in real time.

Shout out to the moms in the world, though. Speaking of mitochondria, did you know that all mitochondria come from the female side of the, of the, of the birth, equation. I didn't know that. That's that's the energy, the energy pieces of our body. What makes us, what gives us energy, what creates energy in our body? Comes from, comes from moms. It's kind of awesome. So we all, that's where you get our energy from. All right, here you go. What did you think about the him casting out to, you know, 100 to 200 years where, hey, robots might eventually be able to connect their genome to a 3D printer and drop by drop literally build another version of that robot.

I thought that was an interesting analogy. But that still wouldn't be conscious. Exactly. And why, Mark? Well, I want to change his thought experiment. What page is that on? Because they'll still be built from

the outside, not from the inside out, like we are built from inside. It would still be 3D printing itself. But what if? Forget the 3D printer. I think he's creating an argument to support what he's saying with that. Because, okay, at this distant future

where robots are AI robots are in space 3D printing replicas of themselves. Why are they using 3D printers? So, okay, you have this futuristic vision and yet they're using a printer. So for me, that was like, okay, what if, as I said in a previous episode,

what if they're making them in a petri dish? What if they're making replicas of themselves, bioorganic replicas of themselves, which are, which contain the electrons, which are building themselves from the inside out. What if we move away from this insistence that robots are non-organic, that robots are made of bits and pieces and chips in a lab

are made from the outside in? Why do we move away from that and make our robots in a petri dish? And then I want to see if they're making themselves from the inside out, then are they capable of free will and consciousness? But if you're making them in a petri dish, that requires organic material versus... Yeah, that's what it means.

Yeah. So is it a robot? Why is it not a human? Well, not exactly. Yeah. Well, that's a whole other episode, isn't it? When does the robot become the human? When does the human no longer become a...

When is the human no longer human but something else? And when is the robot no longer a robot and something else? And do we meet in the middle somewhere? We've created this new species that's not robotic, not human as we know it today, but something new and capable of free will and conscious thought. Yeah. A robot that goes, you know what, I'm not working today. It's sunny.

It's spring. Sod you. I am, I've got free will. I am a, I am a semi-organic, semi-mechanoid. Have you ever had those instances where you were in a like a crowded space and you considered maybe these things around me are robots? What if what if what if what if like three or four of them are actually robots and I say this with a little bit in Jess because I was hanging out with a buddy years ago and we were at this weird little food hall just outside of Naples Florida which is just an odd little I think it's like Naples.

No no no no no no I wish Naples Florida and we're sitting there looking around he just goes and he goes think all of these people around here are robots and we just went on with this thought experiment for like 30 or 40 minutes not under the influence of even a cold beer. And it was really interesting to kind of think about that. I'm not sure where I'm going. Like a mixture of the Truman Show with this multiverse theory and the all in a computer game. Yeah, possibly. See, you should take that thought because I want this book right now, I want it written by a science fiction writer. And I think this book goes a long way to explaining why science fiction as a genre is. So I had this thought a while ago, I said that in the future, in the distant, distant future,

like thousands and thousands of years in the future, if we're still around, the only literature, which will still be read, will be science fiction. It's the only genre of human literature which will survive the eons of space. Why do you say that? Like physically survive or just narrative? The stories will survive because it's wired into us. And I think that in the far, reaches of the future will the human condition will be wrapped up in that's the story of

science fiction and i don't think that drama and romance and mystery and all of these i don't think though people won't be reading dracula in a thousand years but they will be reading a blade runner dandroy's dream of electric sheep there you go well i i i disagree with that mark because right now there's a call back to the nis for 20-somethings you know teenagers and 20-somethings call back to the aesthetic of the nays, which to me doesn't seem that long ago, but if you really actually do the math, it's 30 plus years ago, whatever. Yeah. But I think there's always going to be a callback to what was while you're looking towards

what will be. I'm talking 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 100, 200,000 years into the future when we have organic humanoids everywhere. Wow. The fundamental difference between a cell and a computer, page 130, he lays it out, seven differences, seven fundamental differences between a cell and a computer. The most notable difference between a computer and a cell is that a computer is made of permanent classical matter, while a cell is made of dynamic quantum matter.

And then he outlines seven. Should we jump through those quickly? I think this would be quite interesting following the discussion we've just had. Paramasium and microchip? Is that where we're going? Yeah, why not? That sounds like a, or you and me and a microchip. our listener and a microchip.

What is the difference between you, listener, and a microchip? Number one, a robot is a classical reductionist and permanent organization made up of separate parts assembled by external agents. A cell is a quantum and classical organization, holistic, dynamic, and self-reproducing made of live information that moves in and out of its porous and dynamic membrane. Number one. Okay. Well, as I just said, why?

But okay. Yeah, and this is the whole illusion of boundaries, too, from natural systems. Their cells aren't these little, like super neat little circles where everything stays contained. There's a symbiotic nature between the cell and the environment. And, you know, things like bacteria, they're inside and outside. They're themselves all the time, right? Yes. Cell's never the same instant after instant, right?

Yep. Number two, Jeremy, here's with number two. So chips or we'll say robots in this example, number two are deterministic, with the exception of input signals which come from the free will of conscious agents interacting with them. So this kind of goes back to like a robot having these sensors that can take stuff in from the environment and then process that through their programming to make a decision where it seems like, oh, light comes in and the robot puts a hat on or whatever the heck it is. It's not a decision by the robot. It's a processing of the software. So the free will and

consciousness piece of it comes into when you decided to program the robot to put a hat on when a certain degree of sunshine came in the sensor. Number three, robots, or chips, robots are not autonomous and require constant supervision unless they perform simple functions. Sales, on the other hand, are autonomous capable of dealing with unpredictable situations, including hostile environments. Obviously, I don't think Federico has seen any films about robots, but yes. Well, all right, so robots are not autonomous and require constant supervision.

He also references hostile environments, so, you know, parenting children require. constant supervision. Our children robots now. Do robots really need constant supervision? I mean, like, there's the football pitch down here, there's a robot that cuts the lawn, cuts the grass, and it doesn't have anyone supervising it. I can't wait for

the backlash from this episode, Jeremy. So supervision, supervision is, could be considered maintenance of code, right? Rather than standing standing next to, yeah, with a I'm being suspicious. All right, number four, each cell of a multicellular organism contains the entire blueprint of the hole.

So this goes back to, you know, the 3D printing analogy and that sort of thing. So every drop of the robots, 3D printer, powered by its genome, doesn't contain all of it in the little drops. So that makes sense. DNA in every cell. And I still wish that they'd never call junk DNA, junk DNA, because it just seems that it's anything but junk. It's like 98% of all our DNA is junk DNA. And because they called it that at the beginning, it's kind of stuck. And if it's stuck in my mind, it's stuck in everyone's mind about how, I think it's junk.

And it's quite hard to separate the word from what actually is. Leave it to us to call something not valuable when we can't explain it or understand it. Like, same with dark matter, like dark matter. Like, it's doing something very profound, but it's just this weird dark stuff that no one knows how to explain. Except for Vera Rubin, who did it true. tremendously well. Number five, in a robot, information processing and communications are essentially digital with some analog input output functions.

While in a cell, live information is used. Remember, live information is matter plus energy plus information. So no matter in the processing of information in a robot. But there's energy. It's in the power supply, right? It's not in the mitochondria, is it? That only comes from the woman robot. Let's go, moms.

What's up? All right. Number six. Robots are objective classical systems without consciousness and without free will. Cells are both objective and subjective, and they have consciousness and free will, even though they are strongly conditioned by the laws of physics. Strongly conditioned.

Strongly conditioned. Ding, ding, ding. It's Pavlov. Pavlov cell. Fantastic. Fantastic. I'm with you on this bit about cells. They have consciousness and free will.

It's quite hard to wrap my head around what he's trying to say with that free will where they're operating. within a holistic hole so it's not like free will me i'm going to decide to take my hat off and go out and sunbat it's more they have to do something within their system and yeah like i said hard to get my head around that yeah free is free will coordinated consciousness so that's something to think about too like you're you're talking about all these things coordinated in this ecosystem of an event happening um quala qualia is like the quantifiable or the attempted quantifiable aspect of the experience which which you know has has a lot to do with consciousness

But yeah, he's talked about this. Classical objective and quantum and conscious is the difference there. Number seven, bring us home, Mark. A cell has all the classical characteristics of a machine, and in addition it has the quantum characteristics that come from live information, consciousness, and free will. In a robot, there is no hole, but only the sum of its classic parts. A cell is connected with a quantum hole that is more than some of its quantum and classical parts.

In summary, the crucial properties that differentiate a living, from a robot equipped with artificial intelligence derived from the consciousness and free will that communicate with the quantum portion of its cells using live information to determine its overall behavior. Man. So what do you guys think? What is life? What is the difference between man and machine? I think this chapter did a pretty decent job of putting somewhat concrete parameters behind it. I thought that was pretty cool. But it's like, yeah, the animate inanimate, what makes things animate? You know, there used to be this magical. right, this little math. I forgot what they ended up calling it back in like the the Greek days, but it was like this essentially like this magic dust that activated particles where now the thought is that the magic exists within the small pieces and parts and not based, not the result of a collision between pieces and parts. So anyway, face melting,

brain melting aside, we're moving through this book. We're stepping into chapter seven, which... The nature of consciousness, Jeremy, 7, which I think might help hopefully answer some of our problems and challenges with this free will part of the picture. Maybe, maybe not. Are you an expert in consciousness? Are you a physicist? Are you a neuroscientist? Are you somebody that lives and breathes to uncover and unlock what is consciousness?

If you are, please send us a note. We want to have you on this next episode for Chapter 7 because Mark and I need a little handholding. And let's look at an examination quote of consciousness. Right? What is life but full of care? You have no time to stand and stare. We are conscious. You are conscious.

An electron can't exist without the whole, but you exist. You are conscious. Now, this is your thinking on paper. Check in for you to use it. So take a minute, be aware. Think about what you're doing, where you are. Look around you. What can you see?

Who are you with? What are you thinking about now? Consciousness. How funny. You just like, when you snapped, everything stopped. in that moment. You mentioned like, what are you thinking right now and what is right now? And now is actually then because it takes 80 milliseconds to process what now is. Daniel Eagleman, if you ever read any of his books, he talks about how senses hit our brain in a different time and

we stitch together reality. One really cool example from the meditation world is to understand what now really is. Think about the moment right before you move something. So stay still and think about your hands. But don't move your hands. But don't move your hands. yet. Think about, I'm about to wiggle my fingers. That's now. The about to right in between. So anyway, there you have it. We've teetered on some lines today, but I'm okay with it. That's what it's here for. Mark, any closing thoughts before we? Yeah, I'm going to go speak to my consciousness and do something fun, because is fun not the whole point of consciousness? I argue that it is. Thank you for listening to the book club, everybody. Bring your books next week. Be disruptive. Stay here.

Curious. Keep thinking on paper.