Technology, Connected - How Stories Create Shared Reality: Yuval Noah Harari on Trust, Nations and Corporations

Episode Date: November 29, 2024

In Chapter 2 of Nexus, Yuval Noah Harari examines how stories allow humans to build trust, organise large societies and create shared realities.Mark Fielding and Jeremy Gilbertson discuss why religions, nations, corporations, currencies and political systems depend on collective belief. These institutions aren’t imaginary in the sense of being unimportant. They become powerful because enough people accept the same story and act accordingly.Guest Mustafa Quadri joins the discussion to explore how narratives connect strangers and coordinate behaviour across large groups.In this episode, we discuss:How stories create shared realitiesWhy storytelling helped humans cooperate at scaleWhat Harari means by intersubjective realityWhether nations and corporations are shared mythsHow religions use narratives to build trust and identityWhy brands such as Coca-Cola depend on collective beliefHow Bitcoin derives value from a shared network and narrativeWhy some stories become widely acceptedHow narratives influence behaviour and decision-makingHow stories can unite groups while excluding othersThe central argument is that large societies don’t function through facts alone. They also depend on stories that give institutions meaning, create expectations and persuade strangers to cooperate.This conversation examines how shared narratives become social, political and economic power, and why understanding them matters in an age of digital platforms and artificial intelligence.Please enjoy the show.--TIMESTAMPS(00:00) Disruptors and Curious Minds(01:55) Books And Your Thinking Space(02:25) Dust Jacket Vote(02:51) A Religious Disclaimer(03:34) Mustafa On Why We Need Books(07:53) Can We Get Yuval On The Show?(09:21) Sapiens, Nexus And The Power Of Story(12:00) The Last Supper(13:02) Stories Extend Biological Bonds(16:04) Lawyers, Guns & Money(18:41) Inter-subjective realities(22:13) Plato, The Nobile Lie and The 10 Commandments(28:23) Starting A Nation(34:25) Kung Fu Brotherhood(42:00) Good Stories(45:00) Do You Think Unhappiness Make You Susceptible To Story(50:26) Different Believers--Watch Chapter 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BhXeNQkbkY&ab_channel=WhereEmergingTechnologiesMeetHumanity--Learn more at Thinking on Paper

Disruptors and Curious Minds, CEOs, founders, booklovers. Welcome to the Thinking on Paper Book Club where we read books that have stood the test of time. Books that will change your mind. And we need you more than ever. Yesterday I was reading a post by Nicholas Thompson, the CEO of the Atlantic, and he was calling it the demise of the book. People aren't reading anymore. The CEOs and founders in technology aren't reading books.

He's been speaking to the different COs and founders that we speak to because our guests on the whole love reading books. But be what may, read more books and that's why we're here. The Rebellion to the 15-minute Book summary, the rebellion to the shortcut, one chapter, one book, one week. We're on chapter two of the Nexus by Yuval Noah Harari. We're going to be talking about Coca-Cola. We're going to be talking about intersubjective entities about Stalin, Jesus. religion, Bitcoin, stories today, Jeremy. We're talking about stories and talking of stories.

We have a friend with us today to talk about Chapter 2 of the Nexus, don't we? We do, we do. It's pretty exciting day. We're moving in a progression that Mark and I have been talking about for a while. We've had some guests come on in Book Club who are reading the book with us, which is great. But we'll get to our guest here in a second. And I had some things, a couple of things that I've been thinking about that I want to land on, Mark. You always say books that have stood the test of time and books that will change your mind.

So it's an all and, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. All right. So books that will change your mind. Think about this, man. Think about how important. This has just been on my mind all week. The idea of one of the coolest things about us as humans is the ability to amend our thinking spaces to change.

change our perspective with new information and books do that in a really great way. But it's hard to do that if you don't exercise that, right? It's hard to butt up against yourself when you have a belief and that belief becomes part of you and it's hard to change that belief even in the presence of new information. So I wanted to click on that and then I also want to give a quick shout out to the No Jacket Required Club. You know, for you Phil Collins fans, I don't have the I don't have the book jacket on here. And we'll see what's going on in the air tonight, if you will. Mark, do you call them dust jackets over there at all?

Because I call them dust jacket. No, I tend to keep my working space pretty clean. So it's a book jacket. You know, you're a book jacket. Well, since we're going to be talking about religion today, I'll say amen to your talk and a little disclaimer. We are just all personal opinions, but based on the book that we're reading. So, you know, don't take offense. This is literal live, guys, this is live unpacking.

We're not trying to piss anybody off. We're trying to figure this thing out ourselves. So there, we are going to get into some testy, testy waters, you know, that, that, you know, which might be a good thing. But take it for what it is. It's a literal live unpacking of something someone else wrote. Mark, let's get our, let's get our guest on here. Yeah. Yeah.

And if they couldn't tell it, this is unscripted. I mean, obviously they'd probably think that it's been, I got a scripted and redrafted and redrafted. but no, this is all off the cuff. So Mustafa Quadri, welcome to Book Club. Thank you for joining us. And as it's the first rule of Book Club is, if it's your first book club, you have to speak. So why don't you tell us how you got here, Mustafa?

Absolutely. Thank you very much. So LinkedIn happens to be the only social media platform that I'm on. And, you know, I just do not like the fact that, you know, there's fewer and fewer book readers. nowadays. So what I try to do is within the space of technology which I work in, I always try to find a theme that sits at the intersection of philosophy, reading, you know, some other ideas and technology. And I'm always reading books. So if I find something that's relevant to my, you know, professional network that people would find interesting, I do try to find an aspect of it and post

about it, you know. So a few days ago, for example, I read about 1984, right? And I was just going back to the book and I shared some thoughts and whatnot. So I did post, I think, something an excerpt from the book Nexus and you commented about the book club that's there, right? And you're like, here's a book club. I'm like,

wow, that's so great. With spamming comments on LinkedIn, you may. But I, you know, I loved it. You know, this is, I think, this is the beauty of internet on, you know, one side, despite the other horrors and the other problems that we are going to I think talk about today.

that this was so right up my alley I'm like yeah absolutely why not you know from the comfort of my home a book club yeah that's absolutely something to be done and I really really did enjoy the podcast the way you guys carried it the way it was non-scripted and I loved the idea of like the pregnant pause

because you know that's my thing usually and I get in a conversation I get two kinds of views right one is like why do you have to talk about such deep thoughts So people usually are not really used to having a nuance and detail conversation. We just want to talk about the next Batman movie that comes out. So I often find myself a misfit in those conversations.

The other kind is, you know, folks like you, which I've connected from all over the place, you know, I do dabble in a bunch of things from working out to doing a little bit of kung fu to, you know, joining some philosophical debates and whatnot. And, you know, the beauty of that is you find people who have the same, you know, like-mindedness as you, so if you will, right? And I think, you know, that's what I love about books. You know, the books connect people in a way that I don't think any other form of media has, right? Because a lot of other media forms, which are as amazing they are, they do not really seek your creative thinking like a book does, right?

And when you're creative thinking, your imagination, your personality comes out and play in the interpretation of it and you're sharing that with a person. And I think that's the beauty of any conversation that I would have. Thank you. I think, yeah, I think that something's really interesting that you mentioned a second ago that I want to hit on is the idea that when you read something, you allow your mind's eye to cast the visual aspect of this thing that you're reading instead of like looking at something and just totally ingesting whatever is being fired at you. I think that's a really, really good point. And, you know, misfit. I love that word.

You know, it kind of fits into this disruptors and curious minds kind of aspect of what we're trying to do. So friends and neighbors, you know, you two can find yourself starting in a comment thread with Mark Fielding on LinkedIn and wormhole right into one of our episodes. So our building spamming a LinkedIn comment near you coming soon. Could I just say books that have stood the test of time and you mention and you referenced 1984, boom, there you go. That's a book that stood the test of time. And I just, every year I find myself at some point saying, oh, this year, 1984 is more relevant than ever before. And every year, it's like, every year, it's all gone, 984 is more relevant than it was last year. And it's the year before.

So maybe we should do a thinking on paper fiction book club, Jeremy, since we're talking about that. I like that. So we're in chapter two. We're reading Nexus. And tell them, tell them what you're. recent interaction with the author of Nexus. Mark, what happened? What happened with that really quickly? Not only am I spamming Mustafa and people on LinkedIn. I'm spamming the author on Instagram. So Yuval Noah Harari shared the book club on his Instagram stories since we're talking about

information networks. There you go. There's an information network. And I don't know. We should take a bet. Can we get, can we get today? Can we get him? thinking on paper. We'll see how good our information networks are and we'll see how good we are at balancing truth and order. So chapter two, stories, unlimited connection, right? We all know the power of storytelling. Everyone's at least heard of Joseph Campbell at one point in their life, you know, how they're

a particular beating. How's like? Well, maybe, maybe you haven't. If you haven't, he essentially has an equation for storytelling, which is really interesting. It's not really math, but it's a process. It's a proven process to actually light up our limbic senses, our emotional context and our brains, why we love stories. But the hero's journey. The hero's journey, exactly.

So chapter two, Mustafa, let's start with you right off the bat, because we like to kind of tiptoe and step into these discussions. What right off the bat caught your eye as you were starting this chapter? So I think the first time I got introduced to this chapter by the author was in his book Sapiens. And he's talked about this, you know, the power of stories, the power of, you know, human imagination. And the ability to create stories that help us break that Dunbar number limitation, which is the number that says, you know, biologically, an organism can only, a human organism can only connect to 150, maybe 200 people, but not more than that. And the author Harari has a beautiful way of explaining with examples how even a country, which in our day-to-day interaction and language, comes up as something very concrete, very real, is not more than a fiction. It is a story that we tell ourselves, that this is a country, we are fellow countrymen, we are connected by this idea. So I think this is a very good upgrade and kind of a very good follow-up to that idea from Sapiens, very here.

He goes in a much more elaborate detail, putting a lens of AI artificial intelligence information network. So, you know how he talks about chapter one, you know, what stories do or what information does is connects people. I think stories being chapter two is the perfect idea and the perfect placement in the book in that sense. Because, you know, while there are other entities of information, story is the most effective entity that connects people. Yeah, it's super interesting. The idea of some of the biggest movements in history, you know, there's no one-to-one relationship with whoever was leading the movement and the people that were being part of the momentum of the movement, whether it's a good one or a bad one. And story scales, right? Stories scale the ability to overcome that one-to-one to one-to-many. And stories can be used for good and bad. We've seen it.

We've seen amazing stories that brings groups of people together and then stories that bring people together to do terrible things that are, you know, pegged throughout history. Mark, how are you feeling about all this? Well, yeah, we are the rulers of the world because we can cooperate in large numbers and we can cooperate in large numbers because we can tell stories. as you mentioned in this chapter two he mentioned the good and the bad of what can happen when these stories transcend the individual and become this global

networks. He talks about Joseph Stalin. He talks about Nazism. He talks about Coca-Cola and Christianity and Judaism and how these... I really like one of the little nuggets which I found quite amusing was when he was talking about the last supper and how

many people can research cite their experience of the last supper, something which obviously they didn't go to, in more detail and with more enjoyment than they could recount almost every family dinner they've ever had. And like that, I think that really knocked home the power of fiction in this for me. That just that was, I tried to invite it. Was that the Jewish passover meal or was that the last supper?

Well, he mentioned, he kind of referenced both of those. both of them is that the last super one, I don't think it makes it difficult, is the last super one which kind of like, oh, yeah, that's, that's a very good representation of the power of story right there. I liked it. Well, human, human to story chains. Those, those four words I thought were really powerful in explaining this, this variation in the, from the one-to-one relationship to the, to the one-to-man. And the reason why it works, Mustafa, how do you feel about this? The reason why it works, according to the author, is stories, believe it or not, extend biological bonds. Like, that, to me, you know, family is the strongest bond, right? And stories can build this trust

with strangers by imagining them as family. Like, that's, that's pretty, pretty interesting when you think about it. How's that land with you? I completely agree. I think, I think there's a lot of truth to it. So one thing that I really love about the author is how he goes down to fundamental concepts, which are sometimes the most difficult concepts to grasp and understand. So you know how he lays it here that, you know, when we say a reality, what do we really mean by it? That there's only one reality. And that consists of everything that ever existed, that existed today, and that will ever exist in future. And then he says, you know, what do we mean by truth?

Now, on the face, it seems like a very stupid or maybe a very kind kind type of question. But in reality, it's a very interesting question. And he then explains that, okay, any truth can only reflect or represent some aspect of reality. And then he goes down to say, you know, there's a objective reality, you know, stars, planet Earth, plastic, me, you, all of that, the material world. Then there's the reality of what's inside, what we feel, you know, anger, love, emotions, and so on and that bonding. And I believe, you know, then on top of it, there is he talk about intersubjective realities, where he actually expands on this idea of how we come up with stories, how we tell ourselves the story about a country or corporates or, you know, so on and so forth,

the story of capitalism, the story of socialism and so on and so forth. And that, I believe, when we are telling and exchanging stories, that does at least create an inner experience. You know, you feel something from a story. And I think that's the most important part. That as fictional as a story can be, it is having an effect on reality and which part of reality, the experience part of reality. So I absolutely believe, and this is, like, this is so amazing.

It's somewhat a parallel in my mind to the hard problem of consciousness where we say, you know, yes, we understand there's like a physiological phenomenon going on, but why is there a experience behind it? So I think the interplay of experience and phenomena is explained beautifully in this in this house. That like the levels of reality, Mark and I hinted on this yesterday, we're a river, but like kind of blew my mind, right? Objective reality, we understand. It's like, you know, a rock. You pick up a rock.

You can feel it. It's a rock's a rock's a rock, right? Subjective reality, you throw the rock at me. I feel it. I feel that pain. That's my subjective reality. And then this idea of inner subjective reality, like literally. just the way it was phrased kind of blows my mind is like laws, gods, nations, states, corporations.

And for you music fans, Warren Zvon's song, Lawyers, Guns and Money, like rang in the back of my head as soon as I heard him talk, heard him, like read those words. Question for you. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. I was going to say great song, Warren Zvon. Great song. You could ask me a question, but I'm just going to jump in.

Anyway, about like intersubjective realities, intersubjective. entities, they're created by this exchange of information, the stories we tell, that's how they are created. But just as poignantly is that they can disappear as well. I mean, objective reality can't disappear. Subjective reality disappears, I guess, when you die. But if you don't talk about lawyers, guns and, well, guns, objective reality, but like lawyers in nation states and money.

they would disappear. So that intersubjective reality is built on a story. Bitcoin is an intersubjective reality. Yeah, I mean, think about this. So the United States, where I live, you're in France, Mark, so that's where you live. Mustafa, you're in Canada, right? So these all feel like to everybody, like these all feel like very physical objects. these nations, these countries, right? And they're, they're ingrained within us, right? But if we

stop talking about it, if everybody stops saying the United States, if everyone stopped saying Canada, if everyone stops saying France and referring to it in any form, it kind of goes away, right? Like, eventually, I mean, it would take a really long time. But like, how does that, where does that land with you, Mustafa? I think it doesn't even take a very long time in some cases, right? So my roots come from the land of India, which, was a British colony at one point, right? So one day it was the subcontinent. The other day, it was India and Pakistan.

And another day, very quickly, after a few events off a war, you know, there was Bangladesh, Pakistan and India, right? There's disputed lands. So you can talk about, like, the issue of Kashmir. And I don't want to get into the controversy there, but just to give an idea, you know, in some people's story that's, you know, part of Pakistan. Literally, you can look at the map of Pakistan and they'll show the territory as, part of Pakistan, they call it the Indian occupied Kashmir.

At the same time, without even this transition, there's a big part of people who show the same part of what in the map of India. They say, this is Pakistan occupied Kashmir. So, while I agree, for the most part, it does take a lot of time, but some of these fictions change very quickly, very, very quickly. I think that's predicated on how quickly someone can sell the idea or how quickly someone can get a buy-in. from a lot of people about an idea.

And a lot of, you hit something really interesting there. So a lot of people, like, in general, refer to the idea of being a salesperson as, as, I don't know, like I've been in sales before in my career, like officially in the sales title before. And people give those folks a hard time sometimes or they were like, man, I'm not a salesperson. I'm a consultant. I'm an author. I'm this or that. But like convincing people about a,

an idea that you have in your head in order to gain traction with that idea, everybody does that, right? Everybody has to do that. I think it's the most important thing and is the hardest thing. You know, the part of my job is like I work on projects of digital transformation, which is the buzzword thesis. You know what the hardest part of digital transformation is, is to get buy-in from people. You can have the baddest, sexiest technology out there rolled out in your company. But if nobody really understands the value, buys into it and starts using that technology,

your digital transformation is nothing but, you know, like a waste of money. I'm like on Web 3. I work a lot in Web 3 and that storytelling and sales pitch and that digital transformation when it's very difficult to tell the story. People don't even try to tell the story in Web 3. They just tell it about the technology. And obviously people don't care. And like that's something that Yuva says in here.

Like people don't care about the truth. they care about kind of their sphere and what influences them. And I've got a question for you. Hold that question for one second. I want to hit on digital transformation. So Mustafa, the interesting part about that is you're trying to convince, you're trying to get everybody in that room.

I'm picturing like this giant conference room table. There's 20 people at it. You're standing at the front of it. You've got this idea that you want to lead from the executive team. It's coming down from there. You want to lead everybody on this journey of transformation. But you got 20 people all speaking. different languages, all coming from different backgrounds, all having different goals and initiatives

within the company, right? So you have to, that story has to ring true to all of those different viewpoints. So yeah, yeah, I've been involved in some of those as well. And it's a chat, but it's all rooted in story. It's all rooted in story. Yeah, yeah. And I think some of the, some of the technologists who do it really well, especially architects, are some of the best storytellers, because they're keeping a very broad range of audience. You know, the problem of a CIO is somewhat different from the problem of the operations manager who works under the CIO, but his like his bandage point is different, right? So it's absolutely beautiful sometimes how you create stories with that data and, you know,

you try to basically, you're selling yourselves. Yeah. So like you said, everybody's a salesman. I do believe in that. Everybody is at any given point selling something. we're selling the idea of reading books, right? You can go in a really deep philosophical rabbit hole to say, you know, why is it even good? And then what do you mean by good?

But again, the idea, like there's something that we've bought in and now we're trying to sell it. Yeah, awesome. And I do agree. Like some of the most technical network architects are actually some of the best storytellers because they can bring it all together. It's really interesting. Mark, your question. Well, I want you to just tie a bit of the book together about the Noble Lie, Plato,

So the Fifth Amendment, the Constitution, and how that differs to the Ten Commandments. It's about fiction and truth. And telling the fictional story is lying only when you pretend that the story is a true representation of reality. And then he talks about the advantages of fiction over truth. First fiction can be made as simple as we like, whereas the truth tends to be complicated because the reality it is supposed to represent is complicated. Second, the truth is often painful and disturbing.

And if we try to make it more comforting and flattering, it will no longer be the truth. In contrast, fiction is highly malleable. So you're American, Jeremy, the U.S. Constitution versus the Ten Commandments. Yeah, right. In God we trust. As an American, can you talk us through this part of the chapter where he speaks about why the U.S. Constitution is, from my reading, kind of brilliant and the Ten Commandments

aren't. It's, it's, yeah, this, this, this, this, the U.S. Constitution versus the Bible, right? So a lot of people are like, whoa, dude, easy. Like, the Bible is the Bible, man. Like, whatever, you know, you, but both are instruments to organize, right? Both are instruments to organize a group of people around something. right around an intersubjective reality right so um u.s. constitution is you know amendable right i mean there's a process to amend it there's a there's a there's a it's and it's not easy right it's not

easy but there's a process to kind of change it and you know we we we kind of leaned into this earlier in the show with the idea of like changing your thinking spaces right books that can change your mind right it's it's difficult to change your mind especially if it's a belief it's a belief it's locked into you you own the belief your ego defends the belief it becomes really challenging right um but then you look at the ten commandments and i i honestly didn't know this until i read i read this chapter that you know in in the bible in exodus what is it 2017 i think he he says uh you know you shall not covet your neighbor's house you shall not covet your neighbor's wife his male slave or his female slave and i was like slaves like that hit me i was like the bible is is the the the catalyst for this for this

movement to be you know to to to follow to be a good person kind of thing right in general but you know it doesn't have the amenable ability to say wait wait a minute hold on you know slavery's not good anymore guys like stable it was never good but like but it's like it's like hey we can't do this but it's still there and how does that have affect how the message resonate. I don't know, man. That kind of flip me out a little bit. But it's all to do with the wording, isn't it? The intro, he says, that the U.S. Constitution is like, we the people, and the Bible is God Almighty on high. So they have this kind of giving the agency to somebody else. And if we the people can change the story, we have

the agency to change it. But if you put it into the hands of a deity, then it becomes a little bit more tricky to to change your truth. I want to flip this to you in a second, Mustafa, but I want to comment on this as well. Like the we the people, the U.S. Constitution and that sort of thing creates order, right? But he had a sentence in the book that was really well placed is that order shouldn't be confused with fairness or justice, right? And we're seeing, we're seeing a bit of that in some things related to the Constitution and that sort of thing.

So I don't know. It goes, so we're in this, we're in this idea of truth and order, right? And balancing truth and order. Where does your head go, Mustafa, on this, how he walks us through the ability to, to kind of coalesce truth and order and balance it in the right way?

So I think coming from a psychological point of view, it's just fair to say that everybody's cognitive abilities and the ability to work through logic and discern truth are different, right? And it would be unfair to believe or think that the majority of people can truly understand the nuances of, you know, every domain of life. So given that, I have always been somewhat sold on Plato's idea of the Nobel lie, which means that, you know, hey, it is extremely complex to explain to someone why shouldn't they steal your money if they have the ability to do so and the means to get away with it. it is a very complex argument. However, it's a much easier to grasp concept

if you can just sell the idea of, hey, if you do that, you'll burn in hell, so better not, right? So I do believe that that kind of noble eye does have its utility. And so I'm like half and half, right? I think the key is to finding that balance, and I think that's what the author is talking about too, that you cannot go on one extreme only.

It might not be practical at all. And that's how I see. That's why it is not practical, because I don't think everybody would ever come on the same page. Everybody's stories, even a factual story, has somewhat a, I shouldn't say it's a fictional state, but it has an aspect of subjectivity, right? The all could be villains in someone's story

and heroes in someone else's story is the idea. So I think the bigger question is, who gets to decide between the three of us are among the nation of two million people, there should be order or truth. Why should you make that decision for me? Is, I think, the question. Let's go back.

We told a bad story. Yes. So let's go back to that. Let's say the three of us, right, are, you know, starting a nation, right? We're starting a nation. And Mustafa, you've got some great ideas on, you know, like five organizing principles of our nation.

And you're like, dude, I love these. I think they're great. So let's walk through two ways that we can implement that or you could implement that. You could come in and say, hey, Mark, Jeremy, I thought about it. I've got these three things or these five things that are going to help us organize and be really successful. Point one, two, three, four, five. Okay, option number one, right? So Mark and I look at that and we go, well, you know, these are Mustafa's ideas.

They weren't my ideas. Some of them are okay, but I don't know. I don't really feel it. But then Mustafa, you, let's do option number two. option number two you're like yo guys um i was walking in the mountains and i was i was moving through the fog and i was in a really interesting headspace i was thinking about how we could be really successful and i turned the corner and this light shine down on this rock and i looked over at this rock and i go what's that all about and i walk over the rock and i lifted up and underneath the rock

there was this piece of paper and this piece of paper told me that i had to do i'm getting like I'm working myself up into like, you know, the story of it, right? But if you rally us around that, then Mark and I like, huh, that sounds like pretty interesting. It sounds like something pretty meaningful happened up there. Either that or he's, you know, chewing on some gummies or what have you. But do you, does that resonate with you guys? Like, there's two different ways to catalyze something? I love the idea, actually.

It's very interesting how you took us into a thought experiment. And then I love these about, you know, these kind of discussions. I don't know if I can actually break it down in a proper way right now. It's a pretty deep thought to start, right? But I think if I would come to you or anyone, there has to be a case built based on rationality, right? But then at the end of the day, that's me, right? Someone else might be more interested in a scripture that was received out of nowhere, right? And that's exactly what I'm saying.

Everybody's brain works a little bit differently. So, you know, and that requires at least for us to function at some capacity for there to be order. So I'm sold on the idea of being, you know, there needs to be an order and not everybody can understand and grasp the nuanced truth in every domain. So it's fine. But who takes the decision of, you know, when we should step back. from the truth and go towards simplicity or a more sellable, you know, argument is, I think, a more interesting question for me. You know, when should we go from, let's talk about how the economic market has collapsed and what's going on in the industry, causing all these layoffs

to, let's just make America great again. It's a one-liner that sells very, very quickly, right? So again, who makes that decision? I believe we all have to think a little more deeply about it. Exactly. So here, I know you got something here, Mark. I just want to, I want to sprinkle this in. So I spent about a year, a year and a few months on a research project right at the beginning of this whole Web 3 thing about, you know, three years ago or whatever. And I was doing research on Dow's, decentralized autonomous organizations that are kind of held together by this blockchain mechanic. And I was writing articles for an organization with this. And I ran across in my research, an organization called Micro Solidarity. And it was really, really interesting. I'm going to,

I'm going to just pop this up on the screen. They have a, they have a philosophy that is rooted in the idea of our innate, innate desire to belong to something more meaningful than, than ourselves, something bigger than ourselves. We just, we just come from this, this biological need to belong to something bigger than ourselves. And there are stages into that, right? You know, partnership and then, you know, something that they call a crew. But how much does belonging create susceptibility to storytelling? Do you want to tell you that, Mustafa? Pregnant pause. That is a, that is my pregnant pause for sure. Or the need, the need, the desire to belong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I have a really nuanced to be wanted this.

I think the need is that psychological need is for us to find meaning in things. And we find meaning in belonging, right? Because I always get really hung up on the idea, what does it mean for something to be bigger? It's just something that extends out of us, extends out of us, right? And that can become very, very nuanced based on the worldview that you have. If you're a physicalist and you believe that everything is just one substance, one reality, like the author I explained, then there's really nothing bigger than me

because there's no subject-object distinction. Right? So the idea, I think, is more nuanced in terms of it's the need for meaning. And if you can find meaning is in just being yourself, that's fine for a lot of people. But yes, I do believe that stories help you create that meaning. You know, you have seen those videos

where they're like, you know, sell me this pen. And why should I buy you for $500 instead of $5? Right? And they're like, well, this was the pen that, you know, Bill Gates used to sign his first Microsoft deal. I'm just obviously making it up to give it the idea. Right. So that story gives it the value, gives it the meaning. And I think that's why stories are important.

Without a story, how do I say that I belong to, you know, Canada? I'm, you know, part of this big, you know, Kung Fu, brother. You know, how do we say, oh, you know what, I'm now part of this book club, this great book club that, you know, and we had such, you know, fun having this conversation. You know, while that all of that is true, there's a sense of meaning that I derive from it. And it's impossible simply by just putting facts. You know, you have to turn it into some type of story. And I think our brains already do a very, very good job at doing that. A lot of times the way we view the world is not just facts.

It is a story about facts. right so I think there could be a story about facts there could be a story about fiction I don't see it as a factual story or a fictional story do you see the nuanced difference there I do not a first question that you asked the way you did I think I think I think I think the word meaningful is really interesting right you know whether it's meaningful work meaningful life meaningful effort define meaningful? It's something that's more than what you can observe with your naked eye or that's more than the material presence of that thing, right? So the red light means stop, right? This word stops and the whole meaning of it comes from our intersubjective reality, right? You show a red light to a monkey.

They wouldn't stop. You know, they continue eating peanuts or, you know, taking the journey that they are taking, right? So meaning is an abstraction, you know, an emergence of a phenomena on top of the material reality. And this emergence doesn't really happen on the material plane. It happens on the experiential plane. So again, this is what I see by meaning, right? For anything to mean something, it has to have a description that goes beyond its material destruction.

That's great. How would you define meaningful, Mark? Um, not better than that. So I'll leave that. I can't improve on that because I want to just take it back before I forget about what Mustafa was saying about who decides where you draw the line between truth and fiction. Like who decides what part of the story should be told or should be being told. And I was just thinking maybe at the moment, obviously that decision is taken by a small

with people. Maybe there's some way to make those choices more emergent. You mentioned emergent again. Maybe like they could become emergent decision making rather than just somebody taking that decision. And I wanted to take up the part. I'm sorry to interrupt. That's more truth and order though, right? That was my love. Yeah, like there's just truth and fiction. Truth and order then, yeah. Maybe that can be more emergent. But I wanted to pick on the, on this, what you're talking about storytelling and your susceptibility to story. Because I think sometimes we're guilty of putting grand narratives onto our thoughts

and missing out on what, the reality of the 99% of the world who aren't interested in those grand narratives. They have wants and have needs and they have desires. And you can, you're all familiar with persuasion. And you can, you can plant the seeds and you can, direct the story for people and you can make them believe and want and whatever it is that you want them to believe or what. I mean, if you take AI, everyone's talking about artificial intelligence. Okay, for me, I'm a writer, my job is, my work is in danger from artificial

dangers. I have a, I have a want and desire for it not to be. So I'm going to believe the stories that tell me that my job isn't in danger because it seems. my own interest on that particular desire to do so. And I think that a lot of storytelling, we often think of storytelling as a one-way street, but it isn't. It's a two-way street. And like the listener and the teller are engaged in this kind of back and forth a lot of the time.

And more where the listener is susceptible to a particular story, if that makes sense, rather than that's for me, the story is a two-way thing. Meaning the listener could be the creator or the participant in the story or the listener's actions are amended by the story.

I think we all want to be told a story, but we want a story that is very, not many people want to be told a story which completely, contradicts everything in their worldview of what they want and what they believe. Everybody wants a story that resonates with them. I mean, kind of asks back that, you know, this is my truth. Tell me yours.

Everyone has their own truth. Everyone has their own reality. A truth is just one part of an infinite reality. And so the story, I don't know. Like this is live off the cuff rambling. But like if we're talking about the power of a story, which essentially what chapter the two is it's talking about the power of the story to mold and curate human society. Then, I don't know, I'm pointing it to make any sense.

How do you think about that back and forth between this teller and the listener, Mustafa? When it comes to reading, I want to, you know, maybe pull on that thread. When it comes to reading, there's no back and forth, right? Like, the author, Harari is not really getting my, he's just, you know, told his story, and now I can maybe give it a new spin, give it some, thoughts. So it does, you know, I do see his, the author's view of, you know, how it creates connection and so on. But I'm not so sure if I'm really able to maybe understand when you say back and forth. You know, maybe in a different context when you are telling me a story and I have

the opportunity to interact with you, that is maybe something where a story develops as a back and forth, but not in terms of reading or, you know, watching something, you know, when we hear stories on the news, you know, there's no back and forth, but it can trigger a back and forth among the citizens of the nation, citizens of a nation, you know, let's say elections happening, you know, everybody starts talking, so it does have an impact, but I'm not so sure if it's always a back and forth between the teller and the listener. Yeah. How does.

a story, how is a story affected by its adoption? Meaning, a story comes out and it immediately creates two factions, the believers in the story and the people that don't believe the story at all. I mean, you could, you could, you can make the analogy of like football clubs. You can make the analogy of, you know, Ford or Chevy on the car side. Like, there are people who will never drive a forward and there are people that will never step in a Chevy, right? Why? Because of a great freaking story, right? But I'm talking about how good stories accelerate to the point where the momentum, the people that are adopting the story actually affect its adoption more than the story itself. Does that make sense? So the more people that believe in the story,

the momentum behind it, you're seeing like 96% of people start believing in this, or, you know, 70% people start believing in it. You guys, you guys, you guys start looking at me who, you know, go back to where, right? Maybe I should believe it. Maybe this guy's believing it. It shortcuts. Here's my question.

Here's my question. I think I've landed on it. How do great stories short circuit critical thinking? Oh, that's a tough one. Because they answer what you want. You don't like the, there's some like innate need where that will hijack your critical thinking.

We've seen it played out in the last two months. We've seen it played out in the last 100 years. It plays out all the time. Like, he speaks about Nazi Germany. He speaks about Stalin. He speaks about Palestine and Israel. Like, he... These millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions of people

are just turning off their critical thinking because there's something in the story that resonates with their... needs and their wants and their desires at a deeper level that overrides it. Mustafa? Yeah, I'd look at it as, you know, think of as like fishing hooks, right? So there's the limbic brain and the critical thinking, you know, prefrontal cortex. The prefrontal cortex is the fishing hook is that's usually just wrapped up and requires a lot of resource to come out.

The limbic system hook is just like out there, right? So if something can catch onto that hook, our attention constantly, gets to that, right? And unfortunately, the environment, the technology revolution, the information access these days is not really helping, right? Because our attention spans are so freaking narrowed now, right? So I was listening to this YouTube versus a few days ago, and he's like, you know, people tell me to do these shorts.

I cannot do a short version of something as complex as, let's say, you know, why should one criticize religion or use critical thinking, over religion. It's too sensitive. It's too nuanced and it requires a lot of attention. Nobody has that disease. So I think rather than the stories having this credit, I would blame how we've not trained our human minds. We don't give enough time to mindfulness and so on, which are very doable things in our everyday life that we can do, reading new perspectives, meeting new people, allowing a little bit of a twist on the story that we want to hear, which will train our brains to use that cognitive function at least a little more.

You know, the limbic system, I think, will always have it easier because it doesn't require, as I said, that many mental resources. But I think it's, it is on us, really, to start thinking a little more. And my fear with, you know, relevant to the topic of the book, the AI, just talking to a friend of mine who's a teacher. And he's like, you know, my fear is when I go to some of my students and I tell them, you know, come up with like a few ideas.

The first thing that do is go to chat GPT and say, give me a few ideas and this do that. So there's there's this, you know, constant seeking of quick access, not using our brains. And I think that's not so healthy. There's a balance that we have to strike as much as, you know, AI and everything. It's like really, really good tools. And we should use them. I believe there's a maximum amount of comfort of where we should stop, get out and go on a run. We've arrived the reptile brain on a mass level, Mustafa.

Good look with that. We've got a couple of questions in the chat, Jamie. Do you think unhappiness and loneliness make people more susceptible to believing in stories? Yes, absolutely. Any great question. Our conspiracy theory is more able to take root in a country like the US versus a Scandinavia. country, well, let's ask an American. I will just say that I think that do you think unhappiness and loneliness make people more susceptible to believing in stories? It goes back to what I was saying.

Yes, if you're like the current crypto meta is mean coins and that attracts people who are either very wealthy or not wealthy at all. And they both buy into the story for different reasons because they want to believe that there is wealth at the end of the mem coin button clicking. in the same way if you're unhappy or lonely, you're going to buy into a story that's going to remove or improve your life situation. I think that that is human nature. Here's where it gets really scary, right? So if you're if you're by yourself, you know, everyone has one of these, right? If you're by yourself, everyone has one of those. And using that is, you know, you just you sit there and you're doom scrolling or whatever you call it, right?

That induces more anxiety, more loneliness, more need to grab onto something, right? And less, and while you're flipping through YouTube shorts or whatever it is, your patience for holding space dwindles, right? Because we just, we just get bombarded, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then moving away from all that is really uncomfortable for the first time that you do it. Even if it's for five minutes or 10 minutes, the space gets really loud. right? So I think loneliness, anxiety, social media, that whole loop is making us more susceptible to stories and in a lot of cases the really bad ones, right?

Great. I'd go back to, I think, the idea of striking a balance. And stories, in a way, are a commodity that we consume, right? So there has to be a balance, but we, you know, how much I consume. Take a break, take action, or execute, right? And I think that's, what we are not doing, right? So you look at a, you know, let's say you are a gym rat and you want to work your chest. There's only so many of, so much of workouts that you can look at, right?

Eventually, most of them will be, at least from the good influencers, would be something that's good, good advice that you can follow that will have an effect on your chest. But if I just keep watching videos of chest workouts and never hit the gym, what is going to do, right? It's going to basically have an adverse effect on me. And I think that's the problem.

So I think stories are essential, even fiction. So, you know, buy your story, but then take action on it is my, I think is my take on life. Like it, good take. We're, man, we, we, we, I could, I could keep rolling with, with, with this crew for a while, but we probably ought to, ought to land the plane is my, can I, can I land the, can I ask you both the question then, if we're going to land the plane? we've just spent 49 minutes pretty much agreeing with Yuval story. I think we've bought into his story, whether that's through fear.

I think there's a lot of fear in this book. He's definitely playing on our fears of what's to come. I'm not scared of him. No, but you're scared of the picture that he's painting. And so is there anything, I mean, I think you might have read the whole book, Ms. Affle. Let's hear it to chapters one and two where you disagree with Yuval on what. he's saying or how he's saying it or would you take a different viewpoint, I don't know.

I mean, good question. I think for the most part I agree, the few differences I have and I unfortunately don't have a specific example, but there are a few points where he kind of generalizes a little too much for, let's say for religious communities, right, where he would say, oh, you know, all these believe in so and so. If you look at the actual truth of it, these, these religious communities are internally extremely diverse, right? So there are very, very different kind of believers within a believing community or within a religious community. There are some who are, you know, who have a very different view compared to their own fellows within the same community. And I

think that's what Harari fails to capture. I would say it's an honest mistake maybe. You can not really know and have the expertise on each domain. So sometimes his statements on religion seem to be affected by the generalization fallacy. Okay. Good. Ermi, for you, anything for you? Nothing's really stood out yet.

I'm sure I'll find something before the end of the book. But I largely agree that, you know, this story is a vehicle for coordination and in action, right? And, you know, some of the throughout history, he talks about, you know, history being the study of change, which he references, which I think is a great way to think about that. And in schools, not to get on my educational soapbox, in schools, if we approached history as higher level holistically, the study of change, that's some powerful shit right there. Like instead of saying Mustafa, what date did the Magna Carta get put out there and then try to regurgitate that? Who cares? But what did the next four documents after the Magna Carta, how did that influence where humans went next? That, to me, is some interesting shit. But it's not happening. So I went on a rabbit hole of tangent. I'm going to step off my soapbox.

Currently, to answer your question mark, I'm largely in agreement with what I've read thus far. Like your reference to the Magna Carta, I was just thinking of maybe we could get our former guest from a few weeks ago to kind of use AI to create a modern retelling of the Magna Carta. 1066, wasn't it? Anyway, I agree as well, I think. I still don't like the pigeon of peace. I think that he did that on purpose. He did it to piss you off.

He did it to piss me off. Like, I've listened to him quite a lot. I've read most of his books. He is a, it seems have a deep understanding of religion. I don't know if he is personally religious or not, but it's, It's strange that he makes those generalizations with religion when he's obviously so knowledgeable of it. We get one more comment on a disagreement with the author. Oh, yeah, good.

I disagree. Yeah, go ahead. I disagree with the author in him saying that DNA is not a representation of reality. The whole history of evolution of fitness is a recording of what it takes to remain alive. and make another copy that has to reflect history of reality. Who wants to take that? Mustafa. Yeah, DNA's not a story, right?

Yeah, but DNA represents only part of reality. I think I might not be reading this correctly. Maybe the commenter meant it in a little bit of a different fashion. But I would stick to you all's explanation, that there's truth always has a representation. of an aspect of reality. I mean, you can pick a completely fictional account of Batman and you can find representations of reality.

The ideas around justice and there being a city, you know, I mean, the city is the city. You know, the gravity works exactly the same way. Gravity works in our real world in a Batman universe, right? And so on and so forth. So there's always aspects of reality, you know, reality that you can find. But I would say everything has, you know, a hint of story to it.

I'm honestly not sure if this requires a little bit more, maybe of a deeper die from the commenter if they can explain, then maybe we could do a little bit of a back and forth, not sure if we have the time for it now. I think about DNA, yeah,

I think about DNA is the building blocks for potential of something, right? Because you have all these, like, different little interdependencies and interactions. Like, it's like certain diseases are still trying to figure out, it's not one,

it doesn't come down to one gene. It comes down to the interaction between multiple genes, and then you have two things interacting is exponential, three things, four things, five things. The exponential math on that becomes unwieldy. But that's why I think that is like potential, right? These are little building blocks of potential. I'm not sure, Brandon, if we were helpful in addressing your comment, we thank you for it. And thanks for following along with us. Probably time to wrap it up, though, Mark. Any closing thoughts? Yeah, page 12 and 13. I'm not going to read it because there's quite a lot. about DNA, but he does go into some detail about it.

So maybe we'll read that again and go over again if you're here next week. Sorry, I only have LinkedIn user as his name. What's his name, Jeremy? I believe Brandon. Brandon. Brandon. Brandon on unions, yes. Okay, not next Friday because it's Thanksgiving, but in two Fridays we'll be back

at chapter three. So keep that question in mind. Yeah, and I'll look into that page as well. Thank you for pointing out. I think I might be able to make a more. meaningful comment later on. Because I do have a feeling that I am certainly missing an aspect of, you know, what the what the commenter really meant here. This has been fun, Mustafa. Thanks for joining us, man. Your perspectives are great and kind of moved our conversation into a

new thinking space as well. So thanks for joining. If you want to appear in this box over here next time, comments on the stream and we'll pull you in and we'll chat about this book. It's Pretty amazing. Stories, powerful technology, if not the original. Yeah. And next time we'll be talking about the second most powerful, the written word, the written document. So we're moving from all traditions to writing in information networks. Yeah, Mustafa, maybe I'll go on LinkedIn. I'll start spamming some people. We'll get some more people in. If you want to join us again, if you want to join us again in two weeks for chapter three, you're more than welcome. Maybe I think we can have it up to

10 people in this studio Kong Jeremy say if you can I do it I think I can make it in two weeks I'll just have to look at my calendar but really thank you so much this this was amazing and I think you were extremely welcoming this was my you know

first ever experience going on a live stream I've done some videos and I love going to book clubs in person but this was very very fun thank you for keeping it very inclusive I do truly appreciate you guys constantly getting back to me even though I I didn't feel that I added as much value as you guys do,

but this is brilliant, keep up the good work. Thank you. And could I just say, it's funny, because here we go about, this is my truth, tell me yours. I felt the opposite. I felt that like you added so much more than me and Jeremy ever add. So thank you for, in time for coming on.

Appreciate you guys. Commenter, thanks to the audience, man. That's, that, you know, makes it even more fun. Awesome. Till next time. Adios. Be curious. Stay disruptive.

Keep thinking on.