Test Match Special - 2005 memories: Tres and Colly reflect on England’s last tour to Pakistan

Episode Date: December 7, 2022

As England continue their first Test tour of Pakistan, two of the coaching staff, Marcus Trescothick and Paul Collingwood, were playing the last time England toured here. They sat down with Simon Mann to give their memories of what happened both on and off the pitch, including facing Shoaib Akhtar, an explosion at Faisalabad, and staying up until 1am for Sports Personality of the Year

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge. Perfect for the ultimate defender. The high-performance defender, Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. This is the TMS podcast.

from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, this is Simon Mann in Maltan. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast. It was an enthralling win for England in Ralpindi, and we're looking forward to bringing you commentary on the second test match here in Maltan from Friday onwards. Not only was the match in Ralpindi, only England's third win in Pakistan ever.

It was also their first test here for 17 years. Two members of the current England coaching staff, Paul Collingwood and Marcus, We're on that tour back in 2005, and I caught up with them back in Ralpindi to get their memories of that series of facing Sherbahter, an explosion that was briefly thought to have been a bomb and a batting collapse here in Maltan. That and much, much more. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, Tres, that tour of Pakistan came right off the back of the ashes. So how easy or difficult

what was it, to get yourself up straight away after that? You know, the amazing win, not series win at the Oval, and then the celebrations, and then a few weeks later, you're off to Pakistan. Yeah, obviously it was a, what was it, a month or six weeks later that we were sort of coming out here. But I remember specifically feeling on a high still, almost off the back of that, you know,

the buzz of the summer and what we created and the sort of team that we were, you know, now being talked about ours and, you know, what we could achieve going forward. It was like, I felt, you know, we were invincible coming here for the first test match. And obviously then you get into the test match and it changes. But initially, you know, coming here was a real buzz for me.

I really enjoyed the thought of coming here. What about you, Colley? I mean, I was only involved with one test match at the Oval. So I probably wasn't on quite a high as these boys and quite the intensity that prolonged intensity that they'd had throughout the summer. But yeah, it was a lot of things. I'm, you know, coming here and seeing Pakistan for the first time and getting into the cricket. It was an exciting tour for us because we were confident that the team knew their roles on the side.

And, you know, I think there was a genuine belief that we were going to come out and win out here. You were ready to go despite the fact that, you know, you'd come off the back of that huge series. Well, I'm not so sure about that. sure how much practice and cricket we've done in between the two series. But, yeah, I think mentally and kind of conference-wise, we were ready to go for sure, but it's obviously coming out in these conditions. It's a totally different ball game. One thing that happened on that tour that doesn't always happen on tours,

and it certainly hasn't happened much on this tour, is you actually had some warm-up games going into the test matches. What were those like? You came up against Mohamed Asif. Yeah, very different to what tours are like now Obviously the whole tour Because obviously it was Tess and ODIs back in that time Was two months long

It completely different to what it is now Only a four-week trip that we're here on at the moment But I don't remember much of the warm-up games I think you remember facing Asifah Asif was born on absolute wheels I just remember this young kid's like dawdling in And he was hitting people in their head for fun But he took, I think he took

about the six or seven wickets in the Lunds and it was like who the hell is he's going to he's going to break his way into the test team but i don't think you quite managed to but it was the first time i'd ever come across them and i do remember that did you like warm-up games were they essential were they sort of a little bit of a pain you just had to endure them a bit like running on the treadmill almost um i think they're you know i think we viewed them as essential at the time and i think they were valuable practice You're coming out of England when we'd had five or six weeks like we've talked about. You know, October's never a particularly busy month back in England after for professional cricketers. So coming out here, you needed to prep.

You needed those couple of warm-up games that you get to get that little bit of practice into it. But I think it evolves now. It's completely different how they look upon their preparation and what they're trying to do. There's more cricket all year round so they can try and change it. But back then, I think it was essential that you had that little bit of time to adjust to conditions and get ready for getting. games that you needed to play. And it wasn't just cricket because there had been an earthquake in Pakistan and you were actually involved in some humanitarian aid? Yeah, so myself and Michael Vaughn were invited by the RAF to go up while we were here in Islamabad to go and deliver

some aid up into, you know, to people that had been hit by the earthquake and in the houses had been completely decimated. So we did that. We went up in, in helicopters at the back dropped Adolf and made a couple of stops and I remember flying through the mountains and obviously we're really close to them here you can see them from pretty much from the hotel and you know it was pretty amazing the two helicopters sort of flying side by side through the mountains go and seeing what it is and all the houses you could look down upon didn't look any different at all so you're all thinking right what we go in here to do it's only when you get to ground level that you realize the roof is actually on the floor and the houses have been

completely demolished and people really struggling then you know you know, to rebuild their houses, rebuild their lives, and us dropping off their, you know, a small bag of bags of rice or maize or whatever it would have been was a huge thing for them, exactly what they needed at the time. And was that a sobering experience for you as well? Oh, incredible, yeah. Absolutely amazing to, you know, to experience it.

A, to be going on these helicopters flying with the guys from the RAF and then, you know, to see the people and do such a good job. There was a second part because I think it was either the next, day we went to the hospitals about five or six of us went around and looked around all the wards and again just sort of adding support to the calls and I remember the hospitals

being completely full up all the wards completely jam-packed with people that have been affected by it but the doctor's saying look we've got days left of supplies ready to try and help these people and more people are constantly sort of coming in so experiencing those sort of things in real

life were incredible what was it like going back to the cricket after that experience? Interesting. I think, you know, it puts things in perspective and you see the reality of life for many people in a different part of the world. It's struggling to deal with something that's happened as big as a big earthquake here. So, you know, they've just had floods here. Now, you know, it's quite coincidental the sort of timings of these sort of things happening for when we arrived. But to experience it, just try and offer an element of support or, you know, the connection between Pakistani life and cricket in this part of the world is incredible.

You know, back to the cricket, first test in Moulton, and you were captain. Michael Vaughn had captained during the ashes, memorably. Can you recall why you were captain and why he was out? I think it was his dodgy knee, won't it? It's one of his dodgy legs that he had, I think, was dodgy knee. So, yeah, the amazing, really. I remember doing the post, you know, all the match interviews and stuff that you have to do or pre-match interviews and pre-series hype that everything goes with it or the photos

where the two captains are holding the trophy it was my first experience of that so a little bit different as you can imagine but once we got into the game it's uh you know roles were normal after that and you were in the cycle you played that last test match at the oval you were in the side for this game you're quite so in the infancy of your test career then yeah 100% so there would have been a few nerves around. Actually, my first memory of Moulton was, I remember checking into the hotel there and there was a cow in reception. And I was like, I thought like, what's going on here? There's like, there's an actual cow. Is this checking in or what's going on? And I remember saying to the later, it's just going to get moved and there were like, no sir, no, sir, no, so you can't.

What happened? Yeah. It just kept moving. And what happened? So when we disappeared, did it, was it there the next day when we came to for breakfast. No, no, it wasn't like a resident or anything like that. It's all just wandered in and they all left in there. It just obviously wandered up the steps and just wandered into reception. I was thinking, I'm checking in to my room. There's a cow. I couldn't

believe me eyes. But yeah, anyway, we got on to the cricket and it wasn't the most memorable test match for me. I don't think I made any runs, but probably because Trez was captain. Well, Trez, you made some runs. I mean, it's actually a game that England controlled for the most part. You bowed Pakistan out for 274. You made

418. You led the way. What do you remember about that? You made 193. Yeah, a good pitch. I think we did really well to bowl them out quite cheaply in the first innings. And then we put obviously a big total on the board to put ourselves in a opportunity of winning the first test match. I think you're always looking to try and get bigger scores in

your first innings because it always gets harder. And we managed to do that. So, you know, getting a first innings lead was fantastic for us. Yeah, lead of around about the 140 mark. They responded with 341. Salman Butt made 122. So you needed 198 to win the game. Can you remember what the mood was in the dressing room

after three innings of the match, needing 198 to win? I remember going into bar, I'm feeling quite nervous. And back then, you know, totals like that were quite hard to achieve. And obviously, with the reverse, swinging ball and a bit of spin

it was quite difficult but it was one game that we realised that we should have actually won it was a huge opportunity but as I said I was quite early on my test career so I remember personally there was a hell of a lot of nerves

waiting to go into bat and I was scoring rates weren't too good so you're kind of trying to eke away it at a total like that and it didn't work this was your 67th test match Jose, were you confident in getting the 198 you needed to win or was there a few doubts after they'd come back and set you a reasonable score in that final innings

or at least a score in that final innings? I think we were confident, especially from what we had achieved in the previous few years and obviously the crescendo being in the ashes in the summer and the team that we were. I thought we were a good enough side to build and knock this down. I don't think it was ever going to be an issue. I think we always knew that one issue was going to be to show a back time.

That was always going to be the challenge because he, You know, his ability with his pace and in these conditions when the ball reverses, you know, he is lethal, or he was lethal at that sort of stage. And we knew that he was going to be a real tough ask. But I think we felt as a group of batters. I thought we were fairly happy to do that. You were 64 for one, chasing 198, and then you lost quite a few wickets. You ran about 110 for 6.

Then a recovery. Garant Jones got some runs. You were 166 for 7. I mean, the game was in the balance. you don't actually get that many test matches that really come down, you know, to become that tight, actually. Unlike Edgebaston, yeah, we don't have too many of those, do you? But no, but when it comes to that, and I think, you know, the pivotal moment is, again, when show is bowling and bowling at the tail, it's very, very tricky for those guys coming in trying to, you know, face someone that quick and with his skills trying to do it.

But it wasn't, it wasn't just his how quick he was bowling. He developed this slow ball, hadn't he? And he was really bamboozled in the batters with, you know, you just think he's running in that far. He's going to bowl 95 mile an hour. And all of a sudden he had this kind of slowball that dropped on here. And he almost yorked here every single time. When it comes out of his hand, you think, oh, my God, beamer.

And then all of a sudden, you kind of, oh, is it going to be a beamer? And then it's down next to your toes. It just kept doing everybody, didn't it? Well, what did he get? How many wiggis do you get five or six in the second instance? He actually only got three. But he did clean up the tail, Danish Canaria got wickets,

but it was Shoeb who just put the icing on the cake at the end. He was the one that won the game ultimately for them. Amazing, isn't it? What you sort of misremember on what it was, because he was so pivotal. I think he also got wickets then as he went along throughout the series. He must have got a couple more Fifers, but I tell you why,

because I remember going into a team meeting, and we would obviously talk about the opposition ballers, and he'd been at Sheribut, but he'd been at Durham for a couple of years, so I said, boys, listen. I thought I was going to be like a real experience campaigner coming into I thought I'm going to impress them here get through his first four five overs you'll be bowling quick

don't take him on do anything short don't hook him pull him you know he'll pull even quicker at you don't rile him up get through that second spell not as quick he'd be late 80s 85 not be interested remember one of the games 25th over he was born 96 mile an hour it was absolutely hurtling in it was like Bull and 96-mile-lower in-swinging New Yorkers knocking stumps everywhere.

I was like, sorry, boys. It seemed to be one of those series that he really got revved up for and sustained his pressure and his speed throughout the whole series. I think we judged him. We played against him before where he thought, right, exactly like Collie said, you can get through a certain period of his game and his bowling, and then it would sort of drop off or you'd get a little bit, it'd become a bit more comfortable,

it never seemed to. But it was a different level of Pierce. I mean that's as quick as you're going to get anyway in the world Brett Lee, show you back to shot on Tate you know it was that kind of level of pace you can't train for that

really it's just something different when you're especially when he's running in about 50 yards you're looking up and he's like he's a dot in the distance and you're thinking oh my God this isn't going to be pleasant but did he have a sort of presence as well not just his bowling but just his

sort of demeanour on the field was that intimidating in any way or was he able to get one over you sort of mentally? I think he had that presence yeah because like Collie said you run in from a long way away there was a buildup

to the action on the you know when he gets to the crease but you know everything that had happened before he'd bowled the fast in a hundred mile an hour board in the World Cup and when we were playing against him in Cape Town so you know we'd seen him and we'd played against him and the hype goes around these sort of people

as being the world's fastest bowlers so it goes before them but like we said you kind of know that it's going to fall away or it's going to drop off you can't sustain bowling 100 miles an hour but he seemed to well he touched 17 wickets in the series and he was the leading wicket taker

so your memory is not fallible on that and he was consistent throughout the series you lost the game you fell 22 runs short was that a sort of moment in the dressing room after I don't know if you can recall it where he thought hold on a second a this shouldn't happen we should have got these and it shouldn't happen to us

just beating the Australians? Not so much that, that we'd just beat in Australia, but I think it was a realisation that we shouldn't have lost that game. It was a hammer blow, because you know coming over to here, it's not easy to win test matches. You're not going to get given opportunities very often to win too many test matches, and that was one that had slipped us by, I think. Second test match was in Faislabad.

Now, you weren't captain for that. Michael Vaughn was back. Were you relieved at that? Were you like, you okay going back into the ranks? Happy to see Michael back? Always good to see the skipper back in. And it was just like, yeah, you just fit back into your normal role after that. You know, you work quite closely anyway as captain and as an experienced player

to try and help the skipper as much as you can do. And it sort of falls back in the place. Again, we had some decent performances, but, you know, nothing too stunning that we were putting ourselves in a position to win the game, unfortunately. Vaughney came back in for me, didn't he? The skipper came back in. I only made 10 and 3 in the first game. so I was obviously putting into the sidelines as Waterboy, but...

What's that like for a player? I mean, did you think you would only get the one test because Michael would come back in? Or if you performed, you might have stayed in? Is it hard to take when you left out, or do you sort of have to be phlegmatic about it? No, I think I just accepted it back then. You know, I'd spent a couple of tours on the sidelines before then in the test match arena.

And I didn't mind it at all. I hear a lot of people, you know, know, being grumpy about being 12th man and not getting a game. Back then, I was living the dream. I was travelling around with England, going to amazing places, you know, learning about international cricket, about international test matches and watching these guys. So to me, being 12th man was brilliant, but obviously you want to play. But, yeah, I think the one thing about that test match was we actually had a team doctor called Peter Gregory.

Now Peter Gregory was like He was the biggest cricket on Iraq You've ever come across And he just wanted a tall cricket He was always asking your questions But he travelled with his bowling boots And he was only a club cricket He wasn't any, he obviously wasn't any good

He probably bowled a lot slow than I did But he did And here he was He would put his cricket boots on when we were training And I remember honestly There was a net session where Peter Gregory our team doctor came running up to bully he actually got us out and then the next day the team comes out and says

calling you're not on the team I was like I wonder why I'm just being bawled off our team doctor I don't think Flex would have been that evil to you would I don't think not quite Duncan Fletcher was the coach at the time I mean it was probably a logical choice does it Michael comes back you go out you know it's the ruthlessness of international sport at the top level isn't it yeah you had to take it but I'm still putting it down Peter Gregory, to be honest. He had a house called Sticky Wickets.

I mean, this is how much of a... He named his house Sticky Wickets. I mean, what's he doing? In the game itself, it was notable for a couple of things. Insey got a couple of hundreds, Innsomal Hack. There was a bizarre runout where he was trying to avoid the ball and Steve Harmeson threw the ball at the stumps and he sort of jumped in the air and he was off the ground

and he was given run out. Do you remember that? Yeah, wrongly though, wasn't it? Yeah, incorrectly. Yeah, that's right. I think all baffled by it because I think he was in his crease but jumped up in the air

I think that's what it was and I think some law chains came around because of it but yeah just bizarre you don't see those sort of things very often and you remember quite poignantly that these sort of things happen and you look back on them like we are now

remembering them thinking well what the hell happened to that the other thing that happened in that match I don't know where this is imprinted on your memory not was the gas canister incident when the gas canister went off? Yeah, I was showy was running into bowl and I was back to face.

You should do what you do, don't you? You can only face what's in front of you. Now there's been a loud explosion sound and it's coming from, we think, behind the standaway to our right. There's a lot of fans on their feet and the players are coming from the field. Marcus Drosothic is trotting from the field.

There are police going on to the pitch now. And I was like, oh my God, what is going on here? You know, we've been in, you know, in Pakistan and we were all a little bit on edge, shall we say, with things that are happening around the world and whatever it was. And our first instinct, or my first instinct was, oh my God, it's a bomb, you know, naturally. Massive explosion. There's no real signs of panic at this stage. But the fans on the far side.

Some of them peering over the wall to the stand behind us to the right. Now the players are all gathered in the centre of the pitch. That includes Ian Bell and Marcus Juscoffick. One of England's security guards is on the field. And these are nervous times for all concerned, really. I mean, thankfully no one was injured by this gas canister. It was from a drinks trolley. It was something like that, wasn't it?

Like the fizzy drinks trolley and this gas canister was on there. I remember just sitting up in the change room. and hear this huge bang and I was like what the hell and I'm looking out in the middle in Tres I've never seen him run so fast Oh come on You don't need to go there

You've been like a sane bulge running up a pitch with your pads and your helmet And then I looked out And I'm watching Shire de Fridi And he's doing pirouettes In the middle of the pitch And what's going on here

It was incredible Stupid one amazing sort of five ten minutes I remember just nipping off to sort of square leg and we were like everyone sort of congregated together waiting for the aftermath of what the hell's going on are we leaving the pitch are we staying on are we going home yeah are we on the next flight home it's like oh no and then you get back into sort of looking around and on the crease it's like what's this great big mark on a length and it's like darrell i think it was darrell hair was it or maybe and simon talfour i think look what's

this so they had to then try and work out what was going on and they looked at videos and it was fairly clear to see after that, wouldn't it? Yeah, he was doing a period on the pitch to try and damage the surface because pitches are quite flat out here, aren't they? Any opportunity you can take? Yeah, what gives you that impression? Well, Enzy got a couple of hundreds.

The game went on because they were established pretty soon afterwards that it was a gas canister. I think everyone, the immediate reaction was bomb, tore over, straight away. Well, it was for Tres, and he ran off the pitch.

He was pads off, helmet off, and you almost had his suitcase in his hand in his way. But, yeah, we were back out there and I managed to run the drinks around for the rest of the day. Well, scores in that game. Pakistan made 462. England 446. Ian Bell making 100.

Kemm Peterson making 100. And then Pakistan 268 for 9 declared. So England set close to 300 to win and finished on 164 for 6. Trez, you've got a duck in that innings. I left it. Leave it and get bold or LBW? I remember leaving it now

I remember shouldering arms and just show him in swinger Ziba over W I can't remember So 1-0 onto the last test match in Lahore Now Collie for that game You were back in again

Andrew Strauss was that you were back in I mustn't have been bold off Peter Gregory in the net The day before that one But yeah I got back in I managed to Managed to feel good at the crease And score some runs

Didn't quite make the 100 but it was nice to get some runs in both things yeah i got 96 in the first inns i think i mean it got 80 in the second or something but um i do remember in the first in the first inns i was when i was on 96 in back i'm not kidding yet i was worst player in the 90s i was always so nervous i just wanted to get it over and done with as quickly as possible and as soon as i got it like 94 96 always had this little kind of devil on me surely one shot one shot one shot one shot, it's only one shot, go on, just whack it, just smack it, just slog it, go down the wicked, do whatever, it was always on my right shoulder and they're like chipping away

and the other one saying, no, you'd be all right, just go with the same rhythm, just bat, you'll be fine, you'll get past it under, all this kind of stuff. But the devil always won. And show who came in, I hadn't even tried to pull a hookum so far in that innings. And he pitched one short, what do I try to do? Try to hook him, straight top edge. And anyway, I've seen it in the air and I thought, oh, Danish Kinney. area under, I've got a chance of you. And somehow it's stuck. I mean, it didn't even look like catching it and it's stuck in his hands.

I mean, honestly, I've 96 had to trudge off, missed out in another 100. Because actually there was a test match a bit later in your career where you did go to 100 with a 6. In the same match, it was, well, he probably did it there as well. At Edgeburston, when Kevin Peterson tried to hit Paul Harris for 6 to go to his 100

in the game and he didn't do it, he was caught mid on, but you did it later in the game and you nailed it. Yeah, and there was a few occasions where I didn't nail it. 96 in Brisbane when I came down the wicket and Shane Warren just tossed it a little bit slower and wider and I got stumped by Gillicrist. It was shocking, why did I ever do it? I could have had so many more test hundreds.

But was that the game, 96 and 80? Was that the game where you thought, yeah, I really can do it at test match level? Because you were, you guys, we were just been speaking about, you were at the relative infancy of your test career. Yeah, I think so. think no matter what level you play out, whether you go from club level to first class level or first class to international level, it's you've got a, the only thing that gets you over

that hurdle of getting the confidence and the belief that you can do it at whatever level you're playing is scoring runs in the middle. And that was the first time that I'd kind of felt comfortable and obviously playing against a good bowling lineup. You know, I came out of that test match saying yeah I'm you know I can play a test cricket and so yeah I mean that was pretty much a kickstart of my test career really so I was I was delighted with the performance but obviously good at that we didn't get the win 50 few in the first innings treising that test match England 288 though and then Pakistan 636 for a declared you watched Mohammed Yusuf back for about I don't know 14 days scored a double hundred I mean it

When you haven't got a score, big enough score on the first thing, you see them dig in, how easy or difficult is it to just keep your spirits up knowing you're in for a couple of days in the field? Yeah, it's not very easy. It's quite demoralising. You know, with someone like him, you just seem to churn out runs against us. And, you know, you can see how well he's playing. You know, the pitch is good and the ball's not really moving,

and he's pretty attuned to the conditions that he's batting in. So it was always going to be tricky, and especially when they go and get a big total like that, I think the writing was on the wall almost and you're trying to survive and get somewhere close, respectable, in the second innings, but it wasn't going to be. Well, Colley got 18 the second innings.

England was like for 248. You lost by an inning, so you lost the series. A series, 2-0, you went, you know, you came to Pakistan, expect, and do well, you lost the series 2-0. What was that like? I mean, obviously, it disappointed, but after the high of the ashes,

suddenly that sort of feeling of back down to earth? Yeah, I think it slowly felt like things were falling away from us as the team that we created for the previous two years on the trips to South Africa in 0405 the home series against West Indies and New Zealand and those sort of times when you're building to something that we were in 05 and then it was all gone you know we'd all been smashed to bits and slowly players were sort of like leaving that team

Simon Jones I don't think made the trip I think Ashley was injured off the back of that and obviously then myself as well sort of coming to the end towards after that. Because that was the tour in which, I mean, from a personal point of view, you had the knowledge that your father-in-law had fallen off a roof. Yeah, so that was during the first test match. I think it was at the end of day two. I'd had a call and seen things and obviously then, you know, the whole evening that night

was pretty hectic. And then the rest of the test match was, you know, a bit of a blur almost because, you know, you're trying to deal with things and trying to, you know, speak to home and make sure everything's okay and you know you're trying to you know just sort of keep in touch with both sides obviously trying to play the game and focus as much as you could do but you're trying at the same time to you know make sure everybody's okay but yeah it was tricky and that you know it wasn't easy and even then going on throughout the rest of the series because he was then in hospital for a good period of time afterwards wasn't nice you know I look back upon it now was you know probably a bit of a mistake by staying

out there I should have probably gone home for a period of time even if it was just a week or a couple of days just to make sure my wife was okay and dealing with everything but you know you live and learn and you know we come through the other side yeah I mean do you think that you know things would be different now actually that there's a little different attitude to that sort of thing especially mental health that you'd have been given compassionately even no one would have batted an eyelid yeah absolutely obviously to separate the two things out and my mental health struggle started later on from this sort of this incident but I think definitely now, anybody would have, you know, suffered the same sort of thing, you know, on any of the tour we're on now.

I think it would be very different. I think it's accepted a far greater for people to leave trips for personal reasons, compassionate reasons, to go and deal with things at home. So you played on, you lost the test series, but the end of the test series didn't mean the end of the tour. You know, it was a one-day series straight afterwards as well. And then you actually lost that. You lost by three to two in that series. I mean, one day series, do they stick in your mind like test matches, or do you actually think, oh, goodness me, look at the scorecard a bit later,

you think, did I play in that game? I can't remember anything about it. Yeah, I think they're tricky because of the length of the trips that you're on. You know, that's the hardest part. When you've played three test matches, and they're hard work, you know, especially on test matches in this part of the world where they go five days regularly. You know, they're not easy to do.

So you get to the second part of the trip, and it's trying to have the energy and the mental strength to keep going. And that's a real challenge when you're doing two-month trips. Yeah, I don't remember too much about that one-day series. The only game I do remember was Karachi and that noise. And the atmosphere there was just so electric. Probably the most noise or the best atmosphere I'd played under. And Razak, I think, scored some runs.

And whenever you were running into ball, they were just like, rah, son, raw, so. And you're like, oh, my God, I'm going to get hit for six here. It was just, it was so intimidating. I found Karachi itself, like a really intimidating players. It's really hot as well, I remember that, because it was a day game. I remember we fielded it first, and it was boiling in comparison to where we'd been and in other parts of Pakistan. Because obviously we're here in Islamabad at the moment. It's very fresh evening times, getting down to eight, nine degrees. It's very chilly in the morning. And obviously, we played the last two ODIs in Islamabad. I remember fielding, and it was really cold because it was just before Christmas. And you can imagine, seven or eight, nine degrees in, you know, at nighttime, it's fresh. Yeah, I was on the, we did BBC personality of the year as well, didn't we? And we had to, I don't know, it was one o'clock in the morning.

We'd won the first game in Lahore, and it was that night or the second night? Were they back-to-back games? I can't remember. So, yeah, so you're up the night before a one-day international, so early hours of the morning because of the time difference and, you know, you've done so well in the summer, you were the big thing, weren't you, as a team? Not individuals and as a team. Amazing, really.

You know, and the whole, you know, those things that happen like that, like Spotty off the back of 05 and, you know, remembering the sort of great times that you had and celebrations, and this was just another part of it, of the awards and accolades that you were picking up. But it sort of did get in the, the way of actually playing. But it was almost accepted

that that was going to be okay. I remember that we'd won the first one, so this almost bought us a bit of time. You know, this was okay, that people had an excuse and, you know, it was looked upon. I think it remembered being it was looked upon okay, I think. Just some final thoughts. How has, I mean, 17 years since you've been here,

how has Pakistan changed, or have you not been here long enough to sort of be able to make that judgment so far? We've not really been outside the hotel or been to the creek ground. That's been it. You know, we've been here a week, and all we've seen is pretty much what we're seeing. You have a 15-minute journey to the ground,

and obviously the police escort that we have. The security is immense in comparison to what we had before. We might see a little bit more. Obviously, we're off to Maltaan next and see it. But I remember it being so quiet and calm and peaceful, the place where we are. I mean, that's where we are at the moment in Islamabad, And it's very, very similar.

Just that nice presence about it. Less hustle and bustle in comparison to other places around the world. But it's calm. It's quite peaceful at the moment. Did you get out and about 17 years ago? Not really. I remember we popped down to McDonald's on a team trip one day. Yeah, I think so.

Maybe that's where the cow came from. I shouldn't say that. But, yeah, look, I was lucky enough and fortunate enough to come back here, 2017 for the World 113 T20s. Andy Flow, I don't know why, but he chose us in the World 11 team. And the one thing, I mean, we were in the security bubble then, we're obviously in a security bubble now, but the one thing I have noticed since back in 2005 is how we're appreciative the players and the support in Pakistan are that we're here. I mean, you hear it when you're just walking around the ground all the time. Thank you for coming, sir. Thank you

for coming. And I remember 2017 that all the players were just looking in your eye, shaking your hands, saying, you know, what this means to us. You coming back to play cricket in Pakistan is so much. A lot of their players hadn't even

played in Pakistan. You know, they're from Pakistan, but never played. They always had to play in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. And seeing their families actually come to watch them in their home ground was you know, you do realize, you're making a difference to world cricket, to Pakistan crickets.

And I feel very much the same here now with 17 years on in the test arena that an England test team is here. And it's a really, you know, it's a historical moment coming back and seeing the smiles on the fans' faces and realize that you are making a huge difference. Yeah, exactly that point really. I've been lucky enough to have two tours here now, and this is the third one. So I played six test matches in Pakistan. some of the lads who are playing in the team

or, you know, have played in the last few years have not managed to have any of those opportunities. All their tours and all their trips have been in the UAE or abroad. So to think that they're playing for their country, in their own country, against opposition there. You know, it's quite a nice feeling to think that we're making a difference when it comes to those sort of things. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.