Test Match Special - #40from40: Dame Penelope Keith

Episode Date: June 4, 2020

BAFTA-winning acting great Dame Penelope Keith joins Jonathan Agnew in 2000 to discuss her varied career, including a starring role as Margot in The Good Life.

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Special. So far in this series, we've heard from musicians, athletes, comedians and actors, and it's one of Britain's favourite TV and stage stars that we're speaking to today. Back in 2000, England were in the midst of a thrilling test against the West Indies at Lords, a game that saw that rarest of things, all four innings on a single day. So with listeners glued to the action from cars, houses and gardens across the country we were joined by an icon of British comedy

Dame Penelope Keith Star is Margo in the Good Life Audrey into the manor born Keith is a multi-bafter winner and became a Dame in 2014 for her services both to acting and charity so here from July 2000 is Dame Penelope Keith

Was that your first really big break? Yes I suppose so what I'd done And I'd done a series before them called Kate, which I did up in Yorkshire, in Leeds. In actual fact, I went, I remember last night thinking about coming today, that that was the very first test match I saw, I think, which was early 70s, it must have been. No, no, no, probably the second one. And it was again West Indies.

And I went up and there was an actor in it called Brown Badcoe, and we started talking about cricket. A lot of actors like cricket. It's very interesting. Apparently so. Oh, yes, yes. And isn't O'Toole, Peter O'Toole, a great fan. been on. Yes, he's been on here. Yes, hasn't he? I mean, a lot of actors like cricket. And I started

talking to him, and he said, look, if we get there in time, let's go and see the last hour at Headingley. So we tore along from the station to Headingley. It was a beautiful day. And I remember we went up, and there were people starting to meander out. And we went up

to the gate and said, you know, can we come in? And I forget whether it was a tenor or something. He said, you don't want to call me in. You're only an hour left. It's been a very boring day. And I said, no, no, please, please. He said, oh, no, I can't take that off you. No, I can't take that off you.

I tell you what, go in as lads. So Brian and I paid a five-or-each to go in. And that was the day at Heddingley when I think something like four or five West Indies wickets fell in the last hour. Oh, Bill, you're going to search. He will do. It keeps him busy.

I think Garfield. I think it was Sobers, who was captain. It must have been early 70s. I think it was. So was as captain of 66. Oh, dear. You're showing your rage. Yes, I am terribly, you're right.

It can't have been 66, Bill. I don't think it was 66, actually. Well, anyhow. But that, I was doing a series called Kate with a marvellous actress called Phyllis Calvert. And that was on Yorkshire television. And I did, I think, I mean like 13 of those a year. It was a time when they used to be an hour-long series.

So I had six months a year doing it. And that was when I first would walk down the street and people go um haven't I seen you on the telly um which is the sort of first step and then I then good life came along and I suppose after

episode three they'd say oh hello isn't it Margo Bill's approaching me 69 that would be it and the wickets you would have seen I have seen which day was it I wonder was this one here I have no idea but there were quite a

England won by 30 rounds. Yeah, quite a few in the last hour, I remember. Gosh, I did get it right then. It didn't well down. It wasn't sickly, that's good news. Yes. But so then good life happened, and it happens very gradually. And what's interesting about television, especially television comedy,

is that I always say in the theatre, people will say they've seen you in the theatre. I keep posters on my wall to remind me where I spent half my life now, of course, because otherwise it's just gone, all you put is a programme. so people can see a performance and remember it goodly or badly films always seem to me to date and television drama can date but somehow good comedy stands the test of time

that program has never dated it's wonderful it is strange isn't it I mean there are various ones aren't there like Dad's Army of course is the real classic and I get letters now from children I mean who weren't born I had one recently who said because my mum always told me that she was allowed

to stay up and watch you And that's when you realise. It's a goodie. It's a goody. But it does seem to stand the test of time, and people still find it amusing. And the only thing I think that really dates it is, of course, Margot's clothes. Yes, which were pretty horrendous, weren't they? They were.

They weren't yours, aren't they? No, thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. I used to spend more time shopping than rehearsing, really, with that thing. Because they always have a clothes budget. And I always used to say, because Felicity was playing the self-sufficient lady who didn't have the money for clothes,

all the clothes budget went on me. So, um... How did they find you for that? I mean, it was such an extraordinary character. Did you, did you sort of grow into it and did you become this extraordinarily snooty, hot character? It was, it was most peculiar

because what happened was I was doing plays in the theatre called the Norman Conquist by Alan Akebourne with Felicity Kendall. And Richard had done a lot of Akebourne plays, and he'd been sent, apparently. the script of the good life. And they couldn't decide how to cast it. And he'd been to see the Norman Conquests.

And he said to John Howard Davis, who was directing it, I think we've got a job lot here, both characters, I can cast. So we were both cast at the same time. So that was a wonderful help in as much as Flistie and I knew each other very well. Richard is such a wonderful, welcoming chap. And Paul was huge fun. And it was just a magical casting, I think. Yeah.

It's amazing. It looks so much fun. to do? I mean, are they, obviously the finished result is so funny, but is it actually good fun doing it at the time? I mean, is it important you'll get on like that? Particularly in the comedy, I mean. Oh yes, absolutely. You cannot disguise, um, dislike of fellow actors. You know, you really can't, no, no, you must, you must enjoy it. I don't mean enjoy it so that you're all just having a good time and to help with the audience, but you must have the sort of fun that we had. Yeah. Do people laugh at you at school?

You've always been a funny person, if you like. Yes, I think I was. I was incredibly tall and terribly plain. And I think I realized early on that I'd have to do something to get myself invited to places. So I think I probably was, yes. Although I didn't really do much comedy in my career. My career wasn't very long by that time until I did Good Life and Norman Conquest. I'd done mainly, I'd done a lot of odd things on television, sort of in Dixon of Doc Green,

in Emergency War 10 and things like that. Serious sort of stuff. Oh, very serious sort of stuff, yes. So how do you then sort of channel off? How do you then think of, well, it did happen? You don't, really. I mean, playing comedy, well, acting in comedy is exactly the same as acting in anything, only you have to be more truthful, because people totally have to believe that you are who you say you are.

You can actually, I mean, so many actors have said it. I think Sir Michael Regrave was the last great actor to say it. He said, you can fool the town with tragedy, but comedy will find you out, my son. You know, because you have to be so truthful. about it. People must totally believe. There must be any sense of insecurity when you're playing comedy. They think, are you going to remember your lines? Are you really who you are? Whatever. Yes. People have to be very secure to laugh. When you're playing something like Margot, does that sort of take over in a way?

No. No. No. No. You can be Penelope for all night, have breakfast and then go and be Margo for... It is... Acting is a strange craft in as much as the losing yourself in your... okay, I've played very sad people and cried in rehearsal and all that, and done a bit of that. But you can't do that when you're actually performing in front of an audience because you have a responsibility to tell the story to them and be aware of how they're feeling, the same on the television as on the stage.

So when I was playing Margot, I was not only having to remember the lines that I'd only had in my head for a week because we had a week turnaround, I had to think, oh, crikey, and the next one's a quick change because I've got to get into that awful frock with yet more hair. So there wasn't a question of ever losing oneself. A bit of it was, but not all of it.

There was a bit stuck on. The 70s were time for sticking things on, not only eyelashes, but hair and everything. So there's all those other things to do. So you don't become, I mean, quite occasionally, because it was before I was married when I took my car to the garage. I wish I was Margot, because I'd love to have been able

to kind of give someone a peace of my mind. There'd be people expected to be, though, in a way. Oh, God, it's Mario turning up. I don't think so. I think now that audiences are so sophisticated. I think gone are the times. I know when I did Emergency War 10, there was an actor in it who'd stopped when there was a crash

because everyone else had stopped and someone rushed up to him and said, Doctor, Doctor, there's someone hurt. I don't think that would ever, ever happen anymore because people have become so much more sophisticated. But you do totally lose your privacy, don't you? If you're on television all the time, and the one other thing about this job is that no one knows

what we look like. I know what you look like. But it must be, if you're on the screens, playing a popular part like that. Yes. So therefore you guard your privacy very, very jealously.

What do you do? Shut yourself away and... I garden. I mean, what do I do? I live in the country for a start. And the village where I live, everyone knows that I'm Mrs. Simpson. And, you know, that's it.

And I've been around an awful long time now. Yes. You're saying yes, very seriously. I was going to say that I was also one of those people You was allowed to stay up, yes And I think that's only your second series Oh, oh, thanks, Agass Sorry, no.

Great thing is, in the little stuff that Shilper did find me And it wasn't simply your marmalade recipe That I read out of a bit more, But gardening is a pleasure of yours, isn't it? It's a passion. Yeah, we're surprised me about, again, go back to Dear Old Margot, who just couldn't get her hands dirty, didn't she? It was a lovely paradox in a way.

You say, did I become Margo in actual fact, what happened? I had I just moved into a house in Putney when we started that. And I had a garden, and I used to take seedlings in to Richard and Felicity and Paul, and had to explain which end went in first, you know. No.

So, Margot doing this. So that was, yes. No, I'm not, that's, gardening is my passion. I mean, you've obviously got a nice garden. I've got a lodge garden, and I'm just creating another one. now, which is terribly exciting.

Oh, yeah. And what sort of guarding particular? Well, no, I say everything. I'm one of those jack-of-all trades, really. I don't have a special... I don't grow orchids or leaks or anything specific. I do love trees. I believe terribly strongly in trees and planting trees, and I plant as many as I possibly can. I've just planted a walk of eight magnolias, magnolia grandiflora, which is marvellous. We do have deer, of course, where we are, and so one has to do all the protecting against the nibbling the bark. But I love trees. Well, Margot or Audrey, of course,

would have scores of people running around to do all the mowing for her and all the weeding and so on. No, I do that. You totally hands on. Yes, yes. Oh, absolutely, yes. Well, I did do a gardening program, I guess, sometime back. I forget how long ago it was. It must be about 10 years ago. And one of the things I was terribly keen on was the fact that it, I mean, before gardening took off, people just gardened and I was terribly keen that I would be seen as a real gardener. I mean, not a professional gardener, but a real gardener. So we did actually have a garden of an old people's home somewhere in Kingston, which I did used to garden in and do a bit in there. And then I went round all over the country to various gardens, which was totally fascinating. And you wanted to potters round

with the head said, do you listen to the cricket as you put around during the reading. Yes, I do. I've just been given one of those wonderful little small wirelesses which have earphones in that I put in the pocket of my gardening apron and it means whereas before I carried the portable around with me and I and I always forgot it. I can now use it all the time so I can go from the greenhouse to the water garden or whatever and wander around and it's heaven. It's changed my life. It's lovely. Why do you like the radio side of cricket necessarily or do you watch, I mean are you a watcher inside? Do you watch a television or? No, because there's not enough time to sit and watch television during the day

really. I'd love to but I don't and I do like, I mean the classic is, I mean the best is isn't it, having the radio on and then rushing in the eye to see when the wicket's fallen. No, but I do actually like it. You all do it so beautifully. I mean it's marvell. It's become such

an institution now because it's not only informative, it's entertaining as well I think you do it brilliantly. It was great that you were able to recognise blowers straight away when he walked in which didn't surprise me at all but I mean Is he what you expected? He's lovely. He's got his best jacket on for you today.

Well, I think it's a lovely jacket, but he's got a hole in the pocket, you know. He's just lost his fountain pen. Only retrieved it. Bravo. Isn't it lovely that he writes with a fountain pen? I knew you would. Well, exactly.

Little things like that, isn't it? Yes, little things like that, you see. Who's your favourite? I used to love watching Gower about. Did you? Yes, I really did. it was the great thing in my business

the people that I find most rewarding and exciting to watch are the people make it look easy and I think I was lucky enough to work with Eric Morecam and everyone used to think

that he used to fool around every single thing was rehearsed it was just breathtaking was it was wonderful and Gower did used to make it he just went out there and it seemed to happen

I know occasionally it didn't but when he just seemed to bat because that was the thing to do it was great flet Anna Zouciance. I love that word. He didn't net terribly hard, David. If Eric Morgan was precise and concise and...

No, no. David rarely... Here's my captain, of course, at last year, for a number of years. He was a reluctant practising. Yes, yes. But it... I just... I loved watching him. I used to love watching John Snowbowl,

and I loved watching Derek Underwood. It was interesting watching the guys yesterday who were all introduced, the eight... Oh, yes. I know the two weren't... It was 10th, the greats. And seeing Underwood, and he was exactly the same, wasn't he? It's lovely when time stands still like that.

Yes. He hasn't changed, physically, at all. And he was wonderful to watch. There was another person who made it look rather easy. You're telling a story about him, actually. You weren't you earlier on? Yes, I was. I was doing a benefit or something down at Arundall.

I went around with the blanket, I remember. And I didn't, in my business, it's not good news when they throw money at you. But everyone, I went around, I think, with Willis and Colin. in Cowdery and I forget who else. And we were rather pleased they threw money at us. But I remember, I forget which team were visiting, but they'd just beaten. Oh no, England had just beaten them soundly.

And of course the press had said, yes. Well, of course it's not the best team that ex-country has sent over and didum, did-d-d-d-d-d-d-dum. And Underwood said rather quietly, yes, but no one's actually said that we were rather good. And I think this is very English disease, isn't it? It is. And have you found that critically yourself

with theatre performances? Do you take criticism? I don't, I really don't, don't read it now. Really? Well, if you're in the theatre, it's terribly difficult if someone said you're awful. I remember once at Chichester, I was playing in the apple cart, and I was playing someone called Orinthia, who's supposed to be the most beautiful woman in the world, the King's mistress.

One of the notices said, Penelope Keith plays Arinthia, as though she's lost the last race at Goodwood. And as I said afterwards, I don't know whether he meant I'd been riding it or backing it. But it was very difficult the following night to go on, thinking, oh, heavens, how do I go on playing this woman? It is very, very crushing, certainly, and, you know, in the theatre. At least television, you know, it's gone. Do you think we're worse at it, at being critical? I think we've very much got the we made you, we break you attitude, yes.

We don't really like success. No. Do we really? I think we like people who are successful, didn't we? In a way? Until they get to a certain... Until they get to a certain... Did people knock you more when you were really in the linelight?

Yes, certainly. Why, for being sort of the picture that you portrayed rather than for being... I don't know, I don't know, I just think it's a very British disease. Yeah, that's sad. Have you worked overseas? Have you been away and... Just a bit. Last year, I was lucky enough to go to Chicago.

I did a Noel Coward play just in a sort of concert performance, and I went and played in Chicago at the Chicago Opera House, which was wonderful, and that was great fun. And the Americans love successful people. Mark Kew, on the other hand, I'm not saying that that is... better than over here because once you're a failure, they don't want to know you at all. Happily, I've not been a failure there.

So I've worked there, and I've worked in Australia a bit, and that was huge fun. And how do they take you? Well, they think I'm very English. They think I'm very English. I remember walking down Fifth Avenue one day, and someone came up to me and said, gee, aren't you the BBC actress? And I said, yes, yes.

You can still live off, dear old, dear old Margot. Did you think, when you went on to the To the man of born, and you played dear old Audrey there. You could be coming typecast as this character. Clearly you're not a Margot and you're not an Ordry. But they sort of followed quite... Well, they followed on Coastert together,

but the reason I was lucky enough to get Audrey is, in my mind, she was totally different from Margot, you see. Because, I mean, the main difference was that Margot had no sense of humour and Audrey had it in spades. And I think I divide people up to them that has and them that hasn't. you know, so that for me was very different. And what is interesting is that in America, where they have the PBS systems

and they show a lot of English comedy now, they didn't used to, but they do now, I get letters from people who see maybe that, and now next of kin, and I did another series called Sweet 16, and other ones I did it from Thames, and they say, it's great because you're always different.

Yes. Although, still sort of... Well, because I look and I sound as I do, you know, really. But Margot and Audrey were very different kettles of fish, I think, in my mind. Anyhow, I was just so lucky to get two great, great parts within a very short space of time, really. Well, I think we also had Clive Mantle, where the vicar of Dibley was filmed, of course, that beautiful village. Yeah. Where was the Good Life? Where was this poor fellow's garden?

The Good Life. It was in Northwood. It wasn't insurbitant. It upset people greatly that it wasn't actually insurbitant. It was in Northwood, and the great problem for the BBC was to find not a... only a house with a garden that people didn't mind it being dug up and goats doing everything, yeah. But they had to find a house next door that could be Margot and Jerry's and this was the great problem and they found

it in Northwood. Good Lord. And who happens now? I mean people that's living there quite happily. I think they have the best garden in outer London because they had goat manure, chicken manure, pigs and it was dug up annually for four years you see. Yes, of course. And repeat it and put together again.

Now your husband is here. And he's obviously a big cricket fan, so he's been chatting away with Graham Fowler. He comes from up north. He comes from up north. He comes from Lancashire. He's not so much a great cricket fan. Actually, he's a Formula One fan.

Oh, right. When I say to him, you know, he used to play cricket naturally as a Lancasterian. You know, what did you do, battle? Well, I did everything. So, you know. It's quite a Lancastrian trait. Yeah. He's been chatting with Graham Fowl about Accrington.

And rotten store. They all sound rather alike, don't they? They do. And they all look like. that yes yes oh you mean the actual sound yes yes it's it's absolutely fascinating because there's a space called the Rossondale Valley and it's not it's not an urban Lancashire but it's it's it's it's the rural Lancashire it's the urban Lancashire of Manchester Liverpool a carder but the rural burr of Eastlanks is very

similar it's lovely it's there's funny rolling ars okay it is but David Lloyd of course to meet later on have you met David Lloyd no no well he'll be down in the another at Crington special so that's great predicate it's lovely having you here thank you I enjoyed it I've tried I think Peter's been trying for a very long time to have you on haven't we with some

agents and goodness as well I sort of get in their way don't they? Yes they do I'm so glad that you've come and sharing a cricketing memories with us and of course the good life so thank you much indeed for coming in thank you I guess well I can't believe it's 20 years since that interview and that match by the way is discussed in much more detail

in a new Test Match special podcast series looking back at classic tests between England and the West Indies so look out for that on BBC Sounds and while I've got you, here's a taster of another classic view from the boundary you can listen to is the broadcasting great Sir Trevor MacDonald. I worked for a man called Nigel Ryan

who actually employed me and he said to me one day I have been thinking about your career this was news to me I didn't even think I had one you're making the pun using the news to me that's exactly I was using the pun I think it was lost on the occasion at that time.

But anyway, I said, you know, I was very, very grateful. And he said, what I think you should do is to spend half your time traveling around the world doing diplomatic, international political stories, which I had expressed as an interest. And the rest of the time, I think you should do some presenting. I thought all my pigeons or chickens have come home at once. Now, what are the most important attributes for a newsreader? Well, it's very, very difficult, and I'm not sure that a newsreader is the person qualified to give it.

I'm told that you must, at all costs, be accessible. That's obvious. That's true about all broadcasts. What do you mean you've got to turn up on time? I think you have to turn up on time. That's probably very, very good. It's rather important, is? It's terribly, terribly important. I'm also told that you must, in some way, have what people call loosely, but desperately important, I suspect, credibility.

people must believe what you say. They must think that what you say is credible and they must be able to take it to heart. So we don't all think you're telling pork is? Precisely. So it boils down to that. And I suspect that on grave, grave occasions when one is announcing sad news like the death of members of the royal family

or presidential elections and things like that, one must also have something which is called gravitas, which I'm not quite sure what it means or, or what it signifies. But I think I know what is intended by the expression. But you have it in space. Well, I'm not sure. But if I do, I'm terribly grateful because I'm not to show I can define it.

And if you want to catch all of that interview, just hit the subscribe button on BBC Sounds to make sure you catch everything from Test Match Special. Classic View from the Boundary on BBC Sounds. Alan Shearer and Ian Wright. in my kitchen what's going on here the all new match of the day top 10 podcast answering a huge football question every week this has not been easy hasn't it like the top 10 premier league strikers personally i think it's really hard to have shearer anywhere near the top 10 yeah the match of the day

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