Test Match Special - #40from40: HRH The Duke of Edinburgh

Episode Date: April 2, 2020

HRH Prince Philip the Duke of Edinburgh chats to Brian Johnston about his love of cricket in a classic 'View from the Boundary' interview from 1987.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. on BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Jonathan Agnew with another classic view from the boundary as we celebrate 40 years of this iconic radio feature. Our next trip down memory lane takes us to August 1987

and the bicentenary of the Marlaboone Cricket Club. In honour of the occasion, a special match was played at Lords with MCC taking on a rest of the World Eleven. The likes of Gordon Greenwich, Sir Richard Hadley, Iman Khan and Capald Dev all played and on Test Match special we had our own star team. turn. Only one man in history has had two separate terms as president of MCC, and it seemed only right to approach him to see if he might be interviewed. Though his royal highness, the Duke of Edinburgh, was unable to attend the fixture due to family commitments in Balmoral, he was

delighted to chat at Buckingham Palace a couple of weeks before. So for the first time ever, the view from the boundary interview was recorded away from the ground, with Brian Johnston, no doubt wearing his finest and heading to the palace. Your round, it's very nice view to join us on test match special and were not known for our modesty. So can I start off by asking you, how good a cricketer were you when you were a boy? I mean, where did you start your cricket? Oh, well, I was never very good. I started my prep school, I suppose, at Chim, some years ago. And then I had a bit of a break because I went away to Germany for a year to school, and then came back again to Scotland and played there, I suppose, most of the time I was there

until I joined the Navy. I'm rather cheating, because I found a report of you at Cheam, which said an energetic all-rounder, highly unsympathetic to Stonewalling. Now, that was evidently some report about you at Cheam. Apparently, yes. A hard-hitting batsman. Well, I may have attempted to hit it hard.

I don't think I've succeeded all that often. And what about Gordon-Stine? I mean, did they play cricket seriously there? I mean, well, fairly seriously, yes. But the only problem was when I went there, it was right at the beginning, and we didn't have. have a ground, or a pitch, basically. We used to go into the public park at Elgin and play there.

But it was quite fun. We played all sorts of people around about. We played against the army at Fort George and Inverness, and we played against various schools, up and down, Fort Augustus. I think I've seen some pictures. Did you play in shorts? No. No, I've seen a picture.

No, we played hockey in shorts, which was sort of usual. We were quite conventional as far as cricket was concerned. And you were captain? Yes, I suppose for the last term. Were you a good tactician? I had no idea. I can't remember all that much about it. And was there any cricket in the Navy at all?

I mean, when you went to a place like Malta, would you play? Well, very little because I joined in, I suppose, in the summer of 1939, and so it was rather pitchfork straight into the war. And there was really very little opportunity to play cricket during. Well, I did play just after the war in Malta. And also, I had one ghastly match in Akabar. It's a place not to play cricket, in my opinion. And I know exactly what it feels like to run out of water in the desert.

After I played bowl three overs, my tongue swore up with such a degree I couldn't breathe. Rather sandy pitch or something. Yeah, well, it was a matting, I suppose, but it's the thing I'd rather forget about. I mean, as a boy, were you taken to watch cricket? Did you watch it? Do you have any special carers? Yes, we used to, certainly from Chim, he went up to Lords to watch,

I can't remember he was, I suppose there must be one of a test match or something. Oh, yes, I mean, the usual, I suppose, it's awfully difficult to remember names, but I seem to remember the wikikeeper was called Duckworth, isn't he? Oh, yes, the quack, quack he was called,

exactly, clack, quack, used to. But you must have been about the same age, you know, aren't you? As Duckworth? No, no, I mean, as, I'm about the same age as I am. I'm a great to say, sir, I'm about ten years old.

Well, then you'd remember all these people. I'd remember all them. I wondered if you saw the great Wally Hammond, because he was a chap who stood out then, or even Bradman. And Bradman, oh yes, surely. Because, I mean, those were the greats at that time. And what about Prince of Wales and Duke of York and Prince Edward? I mean, did you have them coached or did they...

No, I didn't have them coached. I rather expected them to play in the ordinary way at school, which they did in the majority of them. But they never went on with it, as it were. I mean, they just played their... just played their bit at school and then rather sort of drifted away from... I got three sons and none of them ever played cricket, you know. So it's some...

They did play, but I mean they didn't continue it. I had a short period after the war when I played at Windsor. There was marvelous... You remember the cartoonist Jackie Broome? Oh yes, yes. Oh, yes. And I remember one glorious occasion when I thought I'd bowl a googly. Bola Googly, it came out of the back of my hand, but when it hit the, I mean, when I did it,

when it hit the ground, it did actually go the wrong way. But this time it flew fairly high into the air and so Jackie Rooms all this coming and ducked, whereupon it hit the wicked full toss, which he then did a splendid cartoon of this ball arriving. Spedeguze dropper, cottonball, anything like it. But again, in my researches, I'm told that you took one for 12 against Hampshire. That must have been probably at Highcliffe. I should think that probably... Well, we had a... Do you remember George Newman?

Yes indeed, yeah. Well, he organised a series of sort of charity matches for the National Playfield Association. The first one was at Bournemouth, actually. That was probably... It was the first time I'd ever played on a sort of good pitch at first said. I'd rather enjoyed it. And, of course, playing with what amounted of first-class cricketers,

either active or retired, they had a marvelous way of organizing the game. They're very cunning, aren't there? aren't there? And everybody was allowed to get off the mark. But there came a moment when it was considered that they'd had enough. Things got quite serious, though. You were a bit lucky because Porchie was once going in in one of his games.

And Ingleman McKenzie said to Butch White, to the very far bowler, give him one. Like you said, give him money, get off the box. And Butch White thought he meant to give him on, he took a 35-yard run and said him a tremendous beamers, which rather shook Porchie. Now, that was a lovely ground. I played the John Reeves. John Reed was playing in that match, I think, and he made the fastest 50, I think, that anybody's ever made anywhere. Not floor bowling, I hope.

No, I think he was on my side. I thought I did rather well there. I made 25 in the last innings. That's right. I see a picture of you bowling, you know, Izingree cap. There was a picture of bowling. Not in the cap, I don't think. He was walking out to the, that was at Arandall.

Yeah, no, I think you were burning caps. I've always said the only other person was Ronald Kilman in the film as raffles. You deny. No, I swear. I didn't build an account. But at Arandall, one thing I do remember is I had Tom Graveny. It was caught at short leg, which, of course, caused enormous hilarity all around. He was promptly dubbed as my rabbit, you know.

Well, not a bad rabbit to have, too. Well, yeah, it's if you're taking one week here, come on. And what about the great moment in 1950, when you were approached by Martin Boddy and Code to become patron and 12th man? Whose idea, first of all, of the Lord's Taverners? Whose idea was the 12th man? Not in body. I can't remember offhand. I think it was. I said, you know, patrons rather sort of stuffy title for that sort of thing. I mean, couldn't we have some other, some other title which would perhaps be distinguish me from the other side? I said, what about 12th man? I mean, I wasn't prepared to do anything unless it was absolutely necessary. It was an extraordinary start, wasn't it, these actors getting together and deciding to try and do something for the children.

Well, do things for cricket, yeah. And they were very successful. What? In the early days, I suggested to them that rather than go to all the business of actually making the donations and finding things to give the money to, that their best bet would be to give it to the National Playing Field Association with certain conditions and put one of their members onto the committee because all the contacts were there. And so they could distribute the money much more cheaply from their point of view. That started them off and after that they went off on their own. And now, of course, they produce nearly a million a year. Yes, it doesn't all go into cricket, though.

No, that's right. They've now gone very much on the minibuses, haven't they, for mentally handicapped and, you know, those sort of things, which is very good indeed. And there's some strange events we used to have, didn't we, at the ball. You were there at several of them. No, I only, I think, attended two, because I made it a condition that if I was going to go tall, that it wasn't, well, I thought the charity balls were a dead ball, frankly, and I suggested it again that it was rather, that if they were going to have an evening party, why not do something rather special? And could they not have some sort of do, as it were? And so somebody cooked up this idea of having this cricket match in the Dorchester where it was ballroom. And it was quite successful. It took an awful lot of organising.

They had all sorts of things. They had athletic meetings, cricket matches. Yes, each year they did something different. And they had the rowing. And the rowing, yes. You were definitely there then because you were the umpire. Yeah. Do you remember what you said?

No. John Snag always says that you were saying are you ready Oxford Cambridge Tavernas are you sober

before they started but they got rigged up these boats they took an immense amount of trouble over it is I think that's what really finally dished it because nobody

could go to quite so much trouble every year but it's rather good way of doing charities and to have a sort of camaraderie like this as well because they enjoy it

oh yeah and then also in 19449 was, as you became president of MCC. Was this unexpected? Totally, yes. I think... I followed Plum Warner, didn't I? No, he followed me.

It was right. It was... Garry? Lord Garry? I can't remember. Yeah, somebody did think like that. And he suddenly came along and said, would I succeed him? Well, I didn't know much about it. Anyway, I took some soundings and people said, yes, go ahead. So I accepted. It was quite interesting because that was the time when the cricketts

fixtures were growing at a tremendous rate. Yes. And there really was quite. It was also, I seem to remember it was a New Zealanders came over there. That's right. Yes, it was, yes. But I remember suggesting that it might be an idea to, I could foresee that the demand on first class cricket as time would be so great

that there would be no room for the amateur. And I suggested then that they ought to divide the cricket up into, the county matches should be at weekends, so that the amateurs could take part, midweek should be a professional league with groups of counties. I mean the professionals from groups would play under a different team headings during the week. Yeah. That was back in 1949. Well, there was a bit of advanced thinking anyhow, but it's developed a different way. In effect, they put the two together now.

It says that the whole thing has become professional. They play both, the same people play both, which is rather, it has squeezed out in a sense the gifted amateur, which is a pity. Wasn't it rather awe-inspiring when you've had your first meeting there with all these august members? They're all very jolly lot, really.

They're a jolly lot, really. I think the great thing was, well, in fact, most sports I found, that provided you're interested in the sport, age or background, makes not the slightest difference. I found this as I was president of the International Equestrian Federation for years and I found exactly the same thing. I mean, if you've got an interest in the thing, people forget about everything else.

One quote again, I'm very pleased. In your speech, I read it in Tony Lewis's book, I think, you said, I am the link between the first family and the first sport. So can I assume that you think cricket is the first sport still? Oh, yes. Oh, well, that's good. They try and make soccer national game and all that. Oh, well, it is, but I was president of the EFA for a bit, too.

Well, you've done both then. And I must have asked you, because you opened the new stand the other day. What do you think of the new stand? I didn't open it, I launched it. Well, Lord, it was launched it in that day with the gale and dreadfulness. Well, you've seen it, I've seen it, I've got a great sale on the top. It's really, I like it. I expect it to go past, you know.

It does rather, it reminds me the tents of the Battle of Agincourt. That's it, yeah. But do you like it or not? I think it's right. It was very good, yeah. And then, unusually, you accepted the president for a second year in 1974. That is a bit unusual. In fact, you're the only one.

Well, are you sure? I don't think I am. There was some of the other. Well, sir, I think we've looked in the thing. They always quote you as being the only one. Well, I know they do that, but you want to be careful about believing everything you read in the letters. Well, it seemed to be so unusual that it seemed that it was something that would be quite amusing to have in the record books. Actually, I discovered that there was a much more simple.

the reason for it. Oh. And that was the committee wanted to put up the subscriptions. And so I walked into the annual general meeting to preside, to be given the agenda which said proposed the increase in subscriptions. I suddenly realized why I'd been asked back again. No one would dare boo you. Well, they did.

It's very often. Anything about the role of MCC today? Do you just see it now as a club which has lost its sort of... No, I don't think it's lost anything. I think it's, you've got to have a sort of development. I mean, the whole scene has changed. I think the idea that a club can be both the sort of central club in England anyway, and also the governing body for the sport worldwide or involved in that is really very unreasonable.

I don't think anybody should. I think that the club and the MCC has got exactly the same responsibilities it always had. But inevitably, you've got to share the responsibility for test matches and international cricket with a wider body. And I think that's a normal development. I think members make an awful lot of fuss about it, aren't they? Yes, I think it's marvellous to say, oh, this is the way it always used to be. But the thing is that the whole picture of the whole picture of cricket is different. I mean, it isn't played the way it was 40 years.

I mean, it's not organized the way. There's so much more of it, and there's so much more international. There's a World Cup. There are all these knockout tournaments and every other sort of thing, which never existed before. What about the national playing field, sir? You're still very much involved, the president of that. I mean, what is the main need for that now?

You've done so much for the sport. Well, it's very difficult. We ran into difficulties over the charity law, because the MTAFA is a charity. And, of course, originally, it helped out village clubs and all sorts of, anybody who wanted to play cricket. But it turned out that you're not allowed, the charity is not allowed to give to an organization

that is not itself a charity. And, of course, for years it was accepted that a non-profit club, I mean, a sort of social thing that was certainly not making any money. It was at all intents and purposes of charity. But then we had to stop that. it really became quite a problem. We give a lot of advice on, depends what they,

who asked for it, of course, where they're charged. But the main emphasis now is on sort of children's play, playgrounds. A lot of adventure playgrounds, aren't there, which is very good? But I mean, many other, the whole range of children's play, because, funnily enough, it doesn't come under the Sports Council. They don't take any interest in, I mean, when they don't take any interest, they're not required to.

And there is really no one who coordinates the whole spectrum of children's play. And actually the situation in that area is a bit confused at the moment, but there's plenty for the MPFA to do. I mean, are you in favour, basically, of things like the national playing field, being responsible as opposed to government doing it? Well, I think the government finds it very difficult to do it, because central government can't really administer this thing on a national basis. is it's got to be local authority.

And local authorities do, in fact, of course, help a very great deal, but they vary very much from one place to another. And, of course, with the provision of playing fields and play space, it's also you've got to get at the planning authorities, the new towns, people, the development corporations, actually to make provision for play space and playing fields. We found that in the days of the new towns,

for instance, you know, the greatest difficulty in persuading them to leave room for playing fields. And they're more more being encroached on, aren't there, which is well so... Well, but that's another difficulty, you see, with the price of land, and, of course, a lot of companies had their own playing fields, and they wanted to expand, so they expanded onto their playing fields. One of the things that we tried very hard to do was to get employers in a town to gang together and provide playing fields, in a sense,

on a community basis for everybody, rather than each one have its own field. the difficulty is that even local authorities are beginning to get rid of playing fields because they see they want to burn some money by selling and it makes it very difficult for schools and for clubs and for it's it they play space playing fields generally has had a pretty rough time the last few years I'm important I mean I think I know the answer it do regard team games and competitive games I mean do regard that as important well I do yes because I mean I I think that there's a lot to be said for individual sports.

They give you a great kick if you win and a sort of thing. But I think the important thing about team games is that it's really a part of social education. And it's a sort of education you don't get anywhere else. I mean, you learn because it's fun, you learn to cooperate, you learn to sublimate your personality into the team. You have to learn to win and to lose. And I think it's very good for people. and they learn how to get on in society in a sense

very easily through games, which is very difficult to learn in any other way. You can't teach people. There are people who say, you know, you shouldn't be too competitive these days, you know. Well, I don't think team games are, in a sense, not too competitive. It's true that if you get into the professional end,

of course they become competitive because you've got the inducement of earning money. Most amateur games are not as bad as that. And certainly amateur sport generally is people go and enjoy themselves. I mean, I go in for this carriage driving now, and it's great fun. It's a sort of great family. You know, somebody wins one weekend, some wins another. There's not, there isn't that sort of terrible pressure.

Although in some classes there are, particularly when there's something like a world championship coming off. And when you're sponsored, that's when the pressure is on. Because then you want to do well for your sponsor, then you say, well, if I can, can get into the World Championship, then I can, you know, do even better for the sponsor. And then you think, well, if I can, if there's a short cut, I'll take it. So the pressure goes on only in a certain area, but I wouldn't have thought that that normal competition can be as bad for people at all. Is it as dangerous as it looks?

I mean, if you've been pulled off the box and things, you, no, no, I mean, everybody's, everybody's, no, I mean, everybody's, well, everybody, most people have turned over at some stage or another. You make it so very casual. It's not as bad as that. It looks terrifying. Well, in contrast, then, to the team thing, you have your awards, the Duke of Edinburgh awards, which is very much individual, isn't it? Yeah.

So, I mean, the object of that is to... Ah, but it's in four sections anyway. Yeah. And there's the service section, which is individual, although you can do that with a group, or you can do it through an organisation. There's

a skills section which you can either do in a group, let's say in amateur theatricals or something, that sort. But those two you can do individually, obviously. There's a physical recreation section which you can do individually or through team games. You can do it through team games, absolutely, yes. Oh, yes. And then there's the expedition section where you have to go in a group of four, at least.

So it's not as if you were completely cut off. And then for Gold Award, one of the conditions is you have to go away for a residential course for a weekend or thereabouts. And of course, for many young people, that's the first time they've ever been away from home. And then they have to mix with other people of their own age. So it's not exactly a team thing,

but at least it's a community activity. What made you start it, just for this very purpose to get people? Well, it's rather long, winded, I mean, it's a rather long story, but we had a thing rather like this, started by my headmaster, Gordonson, Kurt Hahn. And it was slightly like what the present award scheme But then he came to me after the war, and by 1950, something rather false, and said, my boy, I want you to start in the war scheme.

He called you my boy. I said, yes, sir. I said, well, you get to group together, and if they agree, I'll come and chair it. And he did, and he got, John Hunt was a member of the committee, who was rather taken with the idea, and offered to be the first director. But the principle of the exercise really was to provide an introduction to the sort of activities that adults found interesting and rewarding, which was in most cases not included in the ordinary formal education. This was all the sort of side things which took place at boarding schools. Very often don't take place in any other schools.

The encouraging thing with the speech, I mean you have tremendous demand for people taking part, don't you? Yeah, well, anybody can take part? It's now running in 40-odd countries, I think. That's great. Nice success story. Can we just come back to cricket in this bicentenary year? Is there anything about modern cricket you'd like to see changed? Anything you don't like when you watch it on the telly or think you say, gosh, why they do that? Is there anything?

No, I don't think so. I only wish to God that sometimes some of their trousers fitted a bit better. Well, they've all changed a bit. It's a very close fit sometimes. But what about the embracing after, we're getting a bit better now, the English team, I think, after someone's taken a catch. Yes, it's quite funny, isn't it?

I mean, in the old days, it was considered no matter how excited you were, you had to sort of play it down and pretend nothing had happened. Now you go to the absolutely opposite extreme. I mean, something quite normal and everybody gets in a frightful state of excitement. Rugby players don't.

If you score brilliant try, they hardly pay any attention to you. That's right. But in cricket... That used to be the standard way of doing it, isn't it? Yes. You took a catch. You didn't even take your hat off. I didn't know.

You certainly didn't throw the ball in the air. No, no, nowadays, of course, it must be so painful. Look, I don't think about these things go in fashions, you know, it'll change one way or the other. Well, so thank you very much for talking to us, and I'm going to maintain that you're the only chap who's been president twice of MCC. I don't close the book yet.

It may be a third time. Well, let's hope there is, sir, and thank you very much indeed for talking to us. In another 25 years' time, really. Thank you so much. Edinburgh remains the only MCC president to serve across two separate terms. He's still an active member of the club, opening the rebuilt Warner Stand in 2017. There's so much more in the archive to enjoy.

If you want another royal treat, what about the legendary royal correspondent Jenny Bond, who is with us at the Oval in 2019? I'm so bad at etiquette. Are you? Do you know, I've just refused to curtsy to anyone. In all the years I was royal correspondent, which was many, I just couldn't do it I couldn't make that little

It's a bob like Steve Smith He could cutts, he couldn't he He could cut it But you never No I couldn't do that No And I really didn't like saying

Your Majesty either Or your royal highness It all sounds so odd to me So basically I would just meet the Queen or Prince Charles And I would shake their hands And I would say Hello ma'am

Or hello sir I do the ma'am and the sir But that's all my mouth would let me do You see that's the first Bit of surprising information that you've given me I assumed you'd have to absolutely, as royal correspondent, be absolutely on message as far as that sort of formality was concerned.

No, I mean, they weren't very keen on me at the Palace, which I thought was a great accolade, really. They always felt they told me that there was a sting in the tale of my reports. And so there should be really, I would call it balance. They would call it a sting. Yes. So some people seem to think that as a Royal Correspondent for the BBC, I was employed by the palace.

I mean, nothing could be further than the truth. It was a straightforward job of journalism. I still is. I still do a lot of commentary. and writing. And it's just a journalist. That's what I am. I'm a hard news journalist. This is just a rather curious and quite difficult brief. Very difficult brief, is it? I was saying earlier on, I was talking about that you were coming on. I mean, for me, it's easy. I mean, if I want to know something about the team, I'll go and ask the captain or anything.

You know, the access that we have. But for you, what access did you have? I mean, if there is a story kicking about. You totally put your finger on it. Yes. I always say he was a political correspondent. I mean, Theresa May is sitting over there right now. She is. You know, many of the political editors would have had one-to-ones with her, would have been able to ring up and get very, very close to what she thought about things. Whereas I couldn't ring up, you know, the palace and saying, you know, would Betty like to have a cup of tea? You know, it wasn't going to happen. I did meet the Queen many times.

Socially? Well, not socially, but I mean. Media receptions in which she's obliged to go around from group to group and spend five minutes with the dreaded press. And bless her, she was always charming But what did we talk about, you know Maybe the weather or something like you didn't have it It's incredibly difficult, isn't it? Yeah, no meaningful question

I did know Diana And I got to know Charles a bit better But I knew Diana quite well She was different But basically the access you get is The least they can possibly offer Yeah, my awful moment with the Queen I think our programme was 50 years old

And we had to parade down to Lords In the committee room There was me, Peter Baxter, Christopher, Henry Blofeld, Bill Frundel, down we went in our suits. And there's the Queen who had made us this huge Dundee cake. I mean, a huge, big thing. So there is this situation which you know very well of the few of us standing there very nervously. You've got the Queen and you've got a Dundee cake. Now, conversation had kind of dried up because it's not easy, is it?

So what do you say in that situation? What do you ask? What did you ask? I said, did you make it yourself? It didn't go down very well. There was sort of, well, there's awful sort of jarring moments in which I really didn't know what else to say. Was that a royal folk? Did she not reply at all?

She said not personally, but specially. Oh. Thought it's quite a good answer, don't you think? Look out on social media for details of more upcoming classic view from the boundary episodes and subscribe to the TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. TMS podcast. Classic View from the Boundary. Suddenly, that was a big bang. An explosion in the depths of space.

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The real story of Apollo 13. There's one whole side of that street grass. 13 minutes to the moon, season two. I literally got on my knees and prayed. Listen on BBC Sounds.