Test Match Special - #40from40: Mishal Husain

Episode Date: June 25, 2020

Today presenter Mishal Husain gives a fascinating insight into the world of journalism in an interview at the Oval in 2016.

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Hello, I'm Jonathan Agnew and welcome to the Test Match special podcast. We're enjoying going through the archives to pick out some of our favorite interviews as you celebrate 40 years of our iconic view from the boundary feature. One of the joys of hosting these chats is the chance to really challenge ourselves as broadcasters, switching gears from one minute describing a wicket to the next interviewing of Prime Minister, maybe. Well, in August 2016, while I was testing myself in a different way, come on. on equestrianism at the Rio Olympics.

We're welcome to a guest for whom interviewing the big names in politics is a daily activity. Michelle Hussein is one of the regular hosts of the Today program on Radio 4, getting up in the middle of the night to be ready to grill those in charge from 6 in the morning. Michelle brought her family along to the Oval Test between England and Pakistan and took a seat next to Simon Mann, who began by asking how she felt being the one answering the questions. I feel that it is a good experience for someone like me to. be on the other side of the microphone and have a taste of what we put our guests through quite regularly. But it's slightly uncomfortable experience because I am of course much more used

to being the one asking the questions rather than answering them. Yeah, I mean, not only that, you've got to speak for about half an hour as well. That is much longer than I would ever get to interview someone, let alone be interviewed. Yeah. I mean, how long would you normally get? About three minutes or something? Or a bit longer? It totally depends what the interview is and where in the program it is, if we're talking about the Today program, one of the best pieces of advice I was given before I began was from Alan Little, who I think is one of the best broadcasters in the country. And he said that in the morning, when you see that pile of briefs on your desk,

you have to treat it as a triage, and you look at those briefs, and there are ones that you're going to spend three minutes thinking about, and they're the ones that you're going to spend 20 minutes thinking about. So the longest chunk of time that we have is the 10 past 8, which generally is about a 10-minute interview. unless it's the Prime Minister or the Director General of MI5 or someone like that, in which case they're allowed a bit of extra time. Well, we'll talk about that in a moment.

We'll talk about your experiences on the today program and presenting the news. But let's talk about cricket to start with. You're here with your three sons today and your husband. I think Ed mentioned, didn't he, before they went off for lunch. One of your sons is wearing an England top and one of your sons is wearing a Pakistan top. And those two are twins, which I thought was rather fitting for today.

it's you know they're lucky they're able to feel that whichever team wins this one they've got a vested interest although i did see your son who's wearing the england shirt i did see him smiling when that wicket went down just before lunch yes that's the problem with being actually in the commentary box you know we're in danger of revealing too much so who do you who are you supporting well i can honestly say to you that i look out you know on and it's been such a glorious morning at the oval it's just a beautiful sight to see these two teams at the, you know, the peak of performances of cricket. And just to look out and feel that both of these countries are a part of me and both of them have helped

make me what I am today. So, so I think, you know, it's a great atmosphere here. And, you know, I'm proud of being part of these countries and both of these being a part of me. Yeah. Would you watch much cricket when you were growing up? When I was growing up, I remember, I grew up in the Emirates, but it was long before it became the sort of cricketing heart. that it is today. But I remember being taken to an England-Pakistan test match at Lords. It must have been towards the end of the 80s. I remember thinking a day at the test was quite hard work, actually.

So you'd been what would you been at the time? I was born in 1973, so I reckon I must have been, yeah, early teens. I can't remember the year that this was. But I think, you know, I wasn't the sort of fan that my sons are, you know, doing fantasy cricket teams every moment they can and absorbing all the statistics. But I think if you're of South Asian heritage, Cricket really runs in your veins.

And so I think that, you know, even if you're not a huge fan, it's just, you know, somewhere in the lifeblood. And then, you know, I married someone who's not only a big fan but plays and my sons play cricket all year round, actually. So you've been drawn into cricket by them. Yes, it's very much a part of my life all year around. So they do nets in the winter. And so I think, yeah, you know, whether it's watching,

something like this or watching them play. Yeah, I suppose I'm a cricket mum really now. So you have to drive them to nets and wait for them and watch them and encourage them? Yeah, and I won't even get into what it's like dealing with four lots of cricket whites in the laundry in the summer. Well, they teach them to washing themselves. You're right. I need to get to that point. You're right, good point. And I'll say you said it. It's not me making you do this. It's Simon Mann. Absolutely. Wash your own cricket whites.

What about your parents? Were they big cricket friends? Your dad was a doctor, wasn't it? Your mum? One was a, started off as a TV presenter and then became a teacher. In the very early years of Pakistan television in the 1960s, she was one of its early producers. And today is Pakistan's Independence Day. So perhaps that is also, you know, perhaps the team are faring well, you know, partly because the stars are aligning for them. But, yeah, my father's a doctor, you know, not terribly big on cricket at all.

But I think they, you know, I grew up as an expatriate kid. So I grew up. I was born in Northampton, but then I went to live in Abu Dhabi. And then I came to live in the UK, essentially when I came to boarding school here when I was 12. I went to boarding school. What was that like? Yes. It was, you know, for me, it was a great experience in the sense that it made me very independent. And I think that has stayed with me throughout my life. But I do, the hard, I loved my school, and I was very happy. But I do remember that saying goodbye to my parents at the airport and getting on.

on a plane and I wouldn't see them for three months usually two to three months at a time and I do remember how how heartbreaking that was and and I would always be in tears but not in front of them and in fact my I think my mother realized but my father was blissfully unaware of all of this until we did the Sunday Times relative values section together and I told the Sunday times that I used to cry for most of the journey to the UK back to school and he said to me afterwards I never realized. At which point I thought, your child is not seeing you for three months.

How did you think your child was going to be feeling? But it's one of those things that I never let him know. But, you know, I'm very close to my parents. It certainly didn't adversely affect my relationship with them. Quite the opposite because I appreciated them in a way. Do you never say to them, oh, why did you send me? No, because I knew. My parents were living in Saudi Arabia at the time.

And they really wanted me to have a British education. And at that time, there was no British school beyond primary school. And, you know, my education was the most important thing for them. And they weren't going to compromise on that. So if I'd said to them, actually, I want to stay with you and go to school, that would have been compromising on my education. And that would never have been right for them. And so they, you know, they wanted the best for me.

They wanted to give me the best that they could. And they had really high expectations for me. And, you know, I would, that again, I think, is part of what's made me what I am. In your interviewing, you've interviewed Satchin Tendulka and Kevin Peterson. And Moin Ali, just before this series began, actually. Sachin and Moin are both quite hard to interview because they're both very modest about their achievements. And while that is, I think, an admirable personality trait, it's not so easy in your interviewee when you're, you know, you want them to talk about their achievements. achievements and so

you know both of them are I was very struck by that that you really had to draw you know to actually for them to acknowledge their greatness was quite hard work but in a way that's very personally charming I noticed you missed Kevin out

off that list of the list of three I could not associate that particular trait with Kevin Peterson but I found him incredibly impressive to interview and he you know also very charming. And after that interview, I thought, gosh, you know, managing someone like him is probably no different to managing one of the big beasts of broadcasting. You know, it's

talent management and it's clearly not without its challenges. But, you know, I think it's a great shame for whatever reason that we didn't see more of him play at, you know, in this sort of arena in his peak years. Were they trickier interviews? I think sometimes, you know, sometimes, you sports people, we feel this, you know, they don't have to come on and be interviewed. They do their talking out there. And yet, you know, perhaps in your trade, politicians, they need to come on. They need that oxygen of publicity. And there's a formula or there's a grammar to a political interview that is, you know, is well understood by both sides.

And that sort of interview is easier in that sense, that there are understand. parameters they need to be on the politicians and you need them on as well. So each side has something in it. But I think sports people to some extent, and I did a lot of interviewing of champions, for example, and I worked on London 2012, and I have this, you know, fantastic experience of sitting on the BBC sports sofa and getting to interview one gold medalist after another. I think the hardest, sometimes the sorts of people we interview on today who've gone through, you know, terrible experiences

and essentially what you're doing in the time you have with them is asking to relive that terrible experience, which is a very big ask. But I think people from the world of entertainment are probably the hardest and the most unpredictable. I once interviewed one of the Chapman brothers about a new exhibition

and as we came to him on the Today program, I could hear him munching what I think were cornflakes as the interview began. So, you know, perhaps it was interviewer's performance art, I don't know. But they are the most unpredictable, I think.

Do you ever get to a situation where you just can't think of the next question? Yes. I like to think you try and hide that. But I think the golden rule for interviewing, if you can call it that, is it's listening to what the guest is saying, while at the same time having your sort of armory of where you want the interview to go next, but being able to junk it if the person says something that really, deserves to have a follow-up.

So the worst moments are where your interviewee has said something that you just haven't picked up on, which is probably very obvious to the audience who have been listening properly. So I think that is the heart of the challenge. Yeah, because actually, you know, you're potentially thinking about your next question, are you thinking about where you want to go?

Yeah, well, you're certainly thinking about what you wanted to get out of this interview. And, you know, it may be that the guest is taking you in a direct, you know, deliberately taking you in a direction to avoid you getting to where you want to go. or they may be saying something really interesting that turns out to be better than what you had planned. So that's the judgment you have to make. And every presenter might make different calls

in exactly that scenario faced with the same guest. What's easier? What's harder, I should say, Broin, rather than what's easier, presenting on the Today program or presenting the BBC News at 10 o'clock or whatever. BBC News at 10, which you have, thanks to being on this program, I've managed to get a day off from,

because otherwise I would be in the newsroom on a Sunday off to do. And on a sunny Sunday afternoon, that could be quite hard. The Today program is demands much more of you, but is equally much more rewarding. And they are really very different, they are very different disciplines. So, you know, on a BBC One News bulletin, it's much more about guiding the viewer through. It's not about putting, you know, your own, you know, adding, you know, when we write a Today program, script. You know, you want it to sound

different to the news on Radio 4. So you want it to have a bit of an edge to it or a bit of a take on the story within the guidelines in which we operate. So it definitely demands more of the journalist in you. What was the heart doing when you hear the music for the 10 o'clock news? Are you so used to it now

that you can almost do it in your sleep or is it the adrenaline go pumping through you? No, the adrenaline definitely goes whichever scenario you're in. And I think the tougher settings is when, you know, when you present those programs on location. And I've presented both the 10 o'clock news and the today program from a Syrian refugee camp in Lebanon

or from outside the school in Peshava, which was horribly attacked by the Taliban at the end of 2014. And those are the scenarios where you're not in a studio environment. And you might be in somewhere noisy. You can't hear the gallery properly. And yet, you know, it has to be a high quality product at the end of it. So those are the most demanding scenarios. What's it like when you have to go into somewhere, like you mentioned, the Peshire attack?

You went to a Botabat, didn't you, after Osama bin Laden was shot. What's it like when you're almost one of the first people on the scene and you have to sort of compose yourself and try and turn yourself around and present what you've just seen to the public? I really felt that when I walked through the gates of that school in Peshava because, you know, what we were seeing was so shocking and yet I, you know, I had to handle that in a professional way

in a way that was not, that maybe emotive for the viewer or the listener but not emotional from my side. So I think that's... Do you feel emotional about it? Or you've got that journalistic distance now? I think at the time you are focused on telling that story and so in that case I walked through the school from the auditorium that the gunman had come into and then through the corridors of the school into the area where the principal's office was

which was where the whole siege had come to a particularly horrible end and it was one scene of devastation after another getting worse and worse because in those final rooms that's where the gunmen had blown themselves up, it was almost unimaginable. So actually, what gives you something to hold on to there is you are focusing on describing that scene. I was walking through with a cameraman, but I had to add more description than you would if you were just telling the story through pictures, because I had one chance to record this for radio

and television. So I think the sort of mechanics of what I was doing actually gave me a structure to what I was seeing because my job was to describe this scene to people all around the world who you know who would who would see it and respond to it do you think your colleagues were you know people who do the job you do would say the same thing or do you find other other people more emotionally drawn into it and other people less emotionally drawn into it I really admire those of my colleagues who who do that kind of thing day in and day out and there are many of them as a presenter I I only you know that There are some things I see firsthand, but a lot of my time is in the studio.

But I think the ones who go from one often horrible scene to another, you know, Jeremy Bowen, Olegirin, at least you said, I just have so much respect for because I think that, you know, you can't become accustomed to it, but you have to find your own way, I imagine, of keeping yourself going through all of that. I mean, you mentioned there that most of the time you're in the, the studio, that means, well, either the TV studio or the Today Studio.

And there is a horribly unglamorous side to it as well, isn't it? What time do you get up to do the Today program then? When I first started, I got up at 3 and AM for the Today program. And now three years down the line, I've allowed myself an extra 12 minutes. So it is 12 minutes past three. That's the point I've graduated to. And I think, you know, it may go a bit beyond that, but I can't imagine it's ever going to go beyond about 20 past three.

I actually know that feeling so well from having done, you know, early shifts to myself over the years. You never get used to it, do you? No, you don't. You always feel a bit sick first. I mean, don't feel sorry for us, by the way, a dear listener. No, it's a great fun. So what would your day on the today program,

or your morning on the today program, what does it entail? So you get up 12 minutes later than you used to do, then? Yes, and you arrive, the today's presenters arrive at about 4 a.m. And the thing I found most surprising when I first joined is that often you have to do a pre-record almost as soon as you arrive because any... Pre-record? Yes.

Well, just briefly. Oh, a pre-recording ahead of the program on tape, not live. So that because any, for instance, any interviewee in America was going to be persuaded to stay up late. So, you know, 11 o'clock midnight, their time. And you'd record them at that point and then you'd run it later on because it's really the middle of the night by the time you go on air. So that was the biggest shock to me that you arrive

and sometimes you hit the ground running straight away. But otherwise, again, there's a sort of grammar to it. You spend the next couple of hours writing your scripts, reading your briefs. Probably that's the wrong order I've said them in. You know, reading your briefs followed by writing your scripts and reading the newspapers. So the triage lesson that Alan Little gave me

is really important in that because the rookie mistake is to spend an equal amount of time on everything you're doing. when, you know, some things are going to demand much more of you than others. And you've got to be your best as well at a time when actually you feel wretchedly tired often. Yes, but I am quite religious about sleep. So if I'm awake beyond nine o'clock on the night before a today program morning, then I start to feel increasingly, you know, annoyed at myself about that.

So I think, you know, I'm not someone who can burn. the candle at both ends. So I try to be as disciplined as I can about the sleep side of things. And what's John Humphrey's like? I mean, you can tell us. No one's listening. It's all right. It's just us in the commentary box. He is. He is a really brilliant colleague. And I can't deny that before I started on the Today program, I did think and feel a bit apprehensive about what is this co-presenting thing going to be like? Is it going to be a sort of, you know, survival of the fittest type scenario and actually I think you know a bit like you work in here that actually when you see other people approach the same material you're you know you're learning from them all the time and

John is a is a is a very generous colleague and and I've learned so much from him he's you know really good to be around you know he he'd be the first to acknowledge that he can give the team a hard time but he's give you a hard time no never no never he's He's a very civilised colleague, and I really enjoy the mornings that we're on together. Because you sort of had a bit of a history with him, didn't you, with the celebrity mastermind thing? He said to me, this is when I was unfortunate enough to have to be interviewed by him. So now, you see, it's great, sitting alongside him in the presenter studio. But he was making a flippant comment about auto cuties, which is the term of the time.

and I didn't take very, very kindly to it. But he's a brilliant colleague, and I really enjoy the mornings when we're on together. Because the first time you presented, you were with him. Yes. Perhaps a way of just shutting that off altogether, sort of BBC sort of politics, you know, saying, right, get them together, first morning,

saw any differences or any potential problems that would be between them. And there hasn't, there's never been a single problem. And, you know, quite the opposite. I've, you know, I've relied on him on so many occasions. And that first morning, actually, Because the tricky thing is, you know, you can prepare as much as you can, but nothing. You can't have a dry run at doing the Today program.

So there was no way that I could just sort of quietly go on air and settle in and then, you know, then be broadcast to the nation. You just have to go on it. And the first morning when I saw the green light come on in the studio was, you know, pretty terrifying. So that's the only way to, you know, you just have to go for it in that moment. And after the first half hour, I looked at the clock on the studio. studio wall and it was half past six and I looked at him and said

I can't believe it's any half past six I feel like we've been on air for hours and he looked at me and I thought God he just obviously to him he's just baffled that I could say that because half an hour I mean the programme's but to me it was a long time and he's been doing it for nearly 40 years but yeah

you must have read the Guardian review I made me laugh this morning I did a bit of research and I look back and I saw the Guardian review of your first day where he says in the first hour. She stumbled ever so slightly and said, er, a couple of times. But that was it. She made presenting the show sound easy. I mean, if only a couple of hers were, you know, the mistakes that we made every day. If only I'd stop saying, uh, since then, but not the case. It just seems an extraordinary, you know, esoteric thing to pick up on, really. It's very specific. As much as I could prepare,

I did. In the summer before I started, and I started in October 2013, so it's nearly three years. I did come in and I sat in the gallery and I watched the program and actually I sat in the studio fair amount with the headphones on trying to just get as much as was possible in the circle as much of a feel of what it was going to be like to present this program because remember I was really new to BBC radio. I had I'd done a bit of filling in on Radio 4 news programs but very little. I had by and large come from television so you know the radio for audience are pretty exacting and so they should be so I you know I Actually, within my first few days, I made a grammatical mistake on air,

and I ended up having to apologise for it on air, not a mistake I've ever made again. I used less, less, or I got less and fewer mixed up. I can't remember which way around it was, but I've never made that mistake again. Well, we're learning the whole time, aren't we? Well, they do. I mean, our listeners, our tweeters, they tell us. Put us in our place.

They do. They're very quick to let us know. And some of them are very generous as well, I have to say. What about being a prominent British female Muslim? What does that phrase mean to you? It means I have a sense of responsibility about it. You know, being a Muslim is part of who I am, but I'm conscious, particularly in the times we live in, that it's something that people are going to notice.

When I was appointed to the Today program, I was struck by how some of the coverage was very much about, you know, she's the first Muslim to present. the Today program. And I thought, gosh, 10 or 15 years before, it would probably have been first Asian to present the Today program, which was also the case. But by that stage, because of the times we live in, it was the bit about me being a Muslim that stood out the most. And I understand why that is notable or interesting for people. But I have to say, I think the thing that really means something to me is when British Asians, you know, usually of my parents' generation,

will say to me, we're proud of you. Because that I don't take for granted. I feel, you know, my parents are part of a generation that came to this country in the 1960s. And, you know, my father's a doctor and, you know, my husband, who's also British Pakistani, his father was a dentist. And these were the professions that, you know, they would have wanted their children to do. So me going to the media at the time was quite unusual, certainly for someone who's a British Pakistani and still not terribly well represented. And so I think it just means a lot to me when people, especially those of my parents, say, you know, we're proud when we hear you on the radio or see you on the television.

But, yeah, there's a sense of responsibility with that, too. I mean, do you get that thing where they say, oh, your hair wasn't looking quite right tonight? Do people, your family... Well, beyond my mother. Yeah, well, possibly. I don't know. Does she do that, does she? Yeah, she does quite a lot of that.

Actually, her pet hate is when I wear black on it, which she can't bear. But, yeah, so I tend to wait until she's out of the country and then wear black sneakily on BBC One. Did you describe yourself as a liberal Muslim? What does that mean? It means that I'm not dogmatic about my faith. I try to live as good a life as I can,

but I'm not interested in telling other people. Well, certainly in terms of faith, I'm not interested in telling other people what they should or shouldn't do. And I think that's really the message I was trying to send about that. I want to bring up my children with as much knowledge of Islam as I can because I think it's really important that they

really know what their faith says and that you know they're hopefully it will be a part of them that is not you know not a not a not a noteworthy part and just something that they won't think too much about it will just be a part of them just like cricket is a part of their lives

one actually question I'm meant to ask at the time is you I mentioned you went to a bottom about after Osama bin Laden was shot were you Were you surprised that that's where he turned up? You've been to a bottom back quite a lot, didn't you as a youngster? Yes.

Well, my family are very keen fishermen. And in the northern areas, there's a valley in northern Pakistan called the Karan Valley. And so Abtabad was on our route. We'd drive up, and it was a really lot. It takes about 10 hours to drive there. But Abtabad was generally where we'd stop for provisions and stock up on the way up there. And then on the way back, it would mean that we were sort of nearly back in Islam. So I know that part of the world well.

You know, Simon, when I look out on the Oval on a day like this, I feel so sad that cricket fans in Pakistan just don't have the opportunity to see international cricket play there. I think of, you know, kids, obviously my children's age, but also for that, for the last 15 years, you know, Pakistan has suffered under the blight of terrorism. And I think, you know, occasions like this, just seeing fantastic cricket played, you know, the team as well, not being able to play like this in front of a home crowd. I think that's the loss of something of a source of joy in a country that has suffered a great deal. And I really feel that when I look out here. And I think this is something all of us

in this country can take for granted. And it's one of the many things that has been taken away from ordinary people in Pakistan. How often do you go back to Pakistan? I go to Pakistan quite often about once a year. Sometimes it's for work. But at Easter, for example, my husband I took the children and we were in Lahore, in the old city of Lahore and I'd taken them to look at the beautiful architecture. And the boys just stopped, they just kept stopping to watch the street cricket. And, you know, the children were playing with two concrete blocks sandwiched together and sticks vertically for the wicket sticking out of the top. And so there I was trying to tell the boys, you know, look up at the wonderful architecture of the Mughal Emperors. And all they wanted to do was to look around down the alleys and see the street.

cricket. But, you know, it's a great country and I hope that one day soon it will be a peaceful country again. I mean, do you sense that there is a possibility of cricket international cricket going back to Pakistan? Well, you know, at the time we were there on Easter, it looked like it might be possible and then there was that horrendous attack on the park in Lahore. But, you know, I hope so. Yeah. Can I tell you about the wonderful experience we've had this morning here, which was that we, all of all five us were out on the terrace and the children, realized that coming up and down this corridor, they realise

that Ian Botham and Shane wore and other people off and down the corridor. So one of them wanted to go and wait outside the Lou for Ian Botham and I said absolutely not and so he was in tears and then Michael Holding came out onto the terrace and I said look if he's on the terrace you can go and you can go and ask him so he went to ask for his autograph

and Michael Holding said why is he said to me why is he crying and I said oh it's because we said he couldn't wait for Ian Botham outside the loo and he said, I'll go and get the autograph for him and he took the book and he went down the corridor and he came back with Ian Botham's autograph and the tears on that 10-year-old's face just disappeared in an instant.

I mean, what a gentleman. But wasn't your husband turned down by Ian Botham from an autograph when he was 13? Apparently he was. I mean, in fair, I think it was here at the Oval actually. In fairness, he does acknowledge that I think Botham was playing at the time so it probably wasn't the right

the right moment but yeah i think he's still a bit scarred by that experience and your son's play i think one of your sons met sashing turned out of the nets at laws he was very he was very lucky um that yes actually they were they went to have a net at lords and satchan was with his son and very kindly um allowed them to have a photograph together which i thought was really really sweet given that he was with his child but actually when i interviewed satchin it was uh it was an afternoon slot and i asked if i could bring my eldest son so he came along and i said you've got to sit really quietly while we're recording the radio interview, not say a word.

But at the end of it, he got a signature. So, yeah, they're really, yeah, they're big fans and they're thrilled to be here today. I'm sure they are. What about some of your high-profile interviews? Malala was on our program last week. I know. I know. I know.

My heart slightly sank when I heard her, and I thought, great. One week they've got a Nobel laureate. Then you had Eddie Jones, and you had the mayor of London, and now you've had to settle for another BBC radio, present it's been it's been fascinating i'm sure i'm sure people listening have really enjoyed you talking through and sang su chi as well how did that go have you you've you've been doing your

research haven't you know it's just off the top of my head well she she she's uh i interviewed a while again and then later on her according to her biographer um when when she um you know i have no idea if this is true or not but her biographer later on was was was told that after she finished the interview, she said no one told me that I was going to be interviewed by a Muslim. But I have, you know, I have no idea if that is true or not. That was the first I'd ever heard of that reported remark. Do you have a thick skin? You have to have a thick skin. I think my skin has got a lot tougher since I joined the Today program. And I think that's been quite good for me. I think I probably needed to toughen up. I've had to toughen up. And yeah,

I think it's been a valuable experience. You know, you come off there and you see comments people have made on Twitter you know some flattering some not flattering um and you know it's a it's a tough program it's a it's a tough environment but i i think i have grown and developed so much as a journalist and actually as a person in the last three years because of it what advice would you give to to young journalists or aspiring journalist listening out there will people who want to be television or radio presenters or to be as well informed as possible because i think one of the things that really worries me today is when people are consuming too much of the sorts of media which reinforces what they already think and know and believe. And I think that is, you know,

that that's just not good. And forget about some of being a journalist. I think it's just not good for personal development as a whole. Well, I really enjoyed listening back to that. Michel, of course, is still a regular on our radios and television screens. During that interview, Michelle spoke about traveling to Peshawar to cover the appalling story of an attack on a military school in 2014. And two years after, to Michel's interview, we're joined by one of the survivors of that attack, the incredible Wali Khan. It goes without saying some of the details in this interview are quite shocking, so listener discretion is advised. At first, I was just lying down on the floor,

and I was just waiting for my eyes to get closed, but as I was still breathing, so then suddenly I thought that I will not give up so easily. I will try my best till my last breath, like I'm still breathing. I will try my best to survive. Now I will survive for my friends, for my family, and I will give it my best, no matter what. So at first, when the students were running out of the auditorium, the students who survived in the auditorium, they were running towards the school wing, the terrorist made to the college wing, they were running towards the school wing. So at first I was requesting everyone to help me. I was calling for help and I was begging for help. But at that time, everyone was in a

traumatic situations and they were also children so no one no one did listen to me they were running here and there and there was a lot of hustle and bustle so it was a traumatic situation for everyone what just happened like everyone everything just changed in a moment of time you you have every right to be a very angry young man yeah full of rage at what's happened and what you saw you know the the thing was that was at first it was in my my mind that in the starting days I was thinking that I will take revenge of my friends and my revenge and I will join military or Air Force and I will take my revenge but then I thought that what will happen if I will take revenge what will happen like I will kill their children

and then tomorrow their children will grow up and they will kill my children and then my children we grow up and they will kill their children and this war will be going on for generations So it's better to finish this war with the perfect solution and I think the best solution for this is to give them education, educate their mind they are not educated, they are being manipulated by wrong people

those children who are doing this they don't know about, they don't know anything they haven't seen the world around them they just believe what they have been showed all the way, all their lives like... Brainwashed really? Yeah, they are being brainwashed by them so the only solution for them

is like the only solution to this is to educate their minds, educate them, educate their children. Because with guns and with bullets, we can only kill terrorists, but with education, I believe we can kill terrorism. And that, again, clearly motivates you very much. I can see you in your face. That is something you feel very, very strongly about. Do you think it's possible? Is that solution possible? It is possible. Like, everything is possible in the world. Like, if you give, like, if you give children's opportunities if instead of sending bombs and guns to countries to like underdeveloped countries we should send books and pens to those countries we should

send teachers to those countries and we should invest in them and we should provide them opportunities we should provide the children's there opportunities crooked opportunities sports opportunities we should give them education opportunities and if you educate them like if you take example of a child like if a child is being taught the right thing since his childhood he will always do the right thing because he has been educated by the right way but if a child has been taught the wrong way he has been shown the wrong image of the world he will think like that and he will always think that these people are his enemies and he will try to kill them he will try to do terrorism and stuff so we need to educate their mind we

need to educate them all of that interview is available on BBC's sounds it really is one of the most remarkable i think i've ever done so to be sure you miss nothing from test match space to subscribe to the podcast via BBC Sounds. The TMS podcast, classic view from the boundary. Alan Shearer and Ian Wright are in my kitchen. What's going on here? The all-new Match of the Day Top Ten podcast, answering a huge football question every week.

This has not been easy, hasn't it? Like the Top Ten Premier League strikers. Personally, I think it's really hard to have Shearer anywhere near the top 10. The Match of the Day Top Ten Podcasts Only available on BBC Sounds BBC Sounds, music, radio podcasts