Test Match Special - #40from40: Sir Christopher Lee

Episode Date: June 4, 2020

Sir Christopher Lee, star of over 200 films and one of Britain's finest actors, takes a View from the Boundary with Brian Johnston at Lord's in 1987.

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Hello, welcome to another classic view from The Boundary from Test Match Special, our series celebrating 40 years of interviews with stars from all sorts of backgrounds who all share a love of cricket. Well, this episode is one of the real greats and comes from 1987. Sir Christopher Lee was without question

one of the true titans of British cinema. In a career that spanned a whole second half of the 20th century and then well into the 21st, Lee's remembered for his performances in over 200, of the major films, notably as Dracula in the Hammer Horror series, as well as in James Bond, the Wicker Man and the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Well, during a horribly rain-affected match against Pakistan that saw just one innings, Sir Christopher came to the old commentary box at Lords above the

pavilion and took a seat next to Brian Johnston. Stand by for an enchanting half an hour. Welcome back to Lords, where our visitor today was once described as tall, dark and gruesome, which is rather unfair description of Christopher Lee, famous, unfairly again, I think, for his parts in horror films, but he's a very fine actor, and he's certainly tall, he's certainly dark, but there's no sign of any gruesome. Very nice to you, Christopher. Thank you, Brian. And you're a macadre dressed, your eyes, Ed Tyon, and all that? That's in memory of happier days, of better days of cricket, I can assure you. Just bring us up to date with your cricket yourself. I mean, when did you play at school? You were at

School of Wellington. Yes. I started to learn cricket of my prep school, which was Summerfields. At Oxford, yes indeed. And I think that's where I was taught to play. Unfortunately, the bursar, as I think they were called in those days, of

Summerfields, who was a very good bowler. Mr. Boettel, I remember him vividly, was extremely good bowler. But he had a rather strange action, which unfortunately, as one does at a very early age, I then proceeded to copy. And It's an action which was shared by Mike Proctor and Max Walker.

In other words, it was rather like a windmill, and I bowled off the wrong foot swinging my arms over twice. But you're six foot something, six foot four. So when I got going, and I did open the bowling at my public school as well on occasions, when I got going, if I kept any kind of length, they used to come up fairly high off the pitch, and I was fairly quick. The demon leave. Oh, absolutely, yes.

You played for Wellington? I, on occasions did, yes, and the highest score I ever had in my life was while I was at Wellington, but not playing for the college. I had 149 not out and came into the pavilion and burst into tears because I didn't make 150. Marvellous, isn't it? And did you keep it up after school or not? No, I was a little thing called World War II, which inconveniently intervened in 1939. I just left school about a year before. I was what was called, I suppose, in those days, a promising cricketer. I went in about four or five and fancied myself a lot, of course. Everybody used to say, what marvellous style when they saw me in the net.

Superb elegance of stroke play. It was very different when I got in the middle. I was so concerned in making these magnificent looking shots that I seldom scored enough runs. And Royal Air Force, you couldn't fit in a plane. You're too big. Oh, no, I haven't been known to do that. I have been known to do that.

Actually, my cricketing career did continue during the war to a very minor degree. In fact, I suppose the greatest moment of my whole life in the game of cricket was when my squadron, 260 squadron, in the Desert Air Force, had a game of cricket against, I think it was one of the other squadons on the wing. In fact, it must have been, playing on a rather bizarre pitch, to put it mildly, as to say, in the desert, which had been flattened and rolled and had some matting put down, and I took nine wickets. Well, I didn't know what the ball was going to do any more than anybody else, that it was the only game that I can remember during the war. After the war, I still continued to play and played again about 1947, 48, 49, 50 when I virtually stopped playing. I, of course, have never given up my love for the game, and I watch it as often as I can all over the world. What about watching? Go right back to when you... What was your first big match?

Do you remember the first one you saw? I think I can. It's very difficult because it's a long time ago. It's at least 55 years ago, I hate to tell you, but it is. And it was while I was at my prep school, and we were. I watched a match played at Oxford, and I'm absolutely certain that Jack Hobbes was batting. Now, whether I'm right or not, I can't clearly recall, but I do know that I saw Jack Hobbs bat, and many of his great contemporaries, it might have been Surrey against Oxford or something of that kind.

And I certainly, of course, remember the pre-war Australian teams vividly. I remember Bradman as if he was walking out in front of me now. me now. The one thing I remember about him, and of course, naturally after the war as well, the one thing I remember about Bradman was the first time I ever saw him hit the ball. And that was his famous pull shot to the boundary from outside the off stump. I'd never seen a shot played like that. When I attempted to replace it, of course, with an equally, perhaps even a better shot, I was sternly ordered by the Games Master not to try such rubbish, but to keep a straight I know. It's rotten, and his used to go right down to sort of log on there.

It was a speed of light. Yeah, he was very quickly getting a position. Most wonderful footwork of any batsman I've ever seen. Well, the other great player in that time, I was lucky enough to see, too. It was Wally Hammond. Do you see him? Oh, yes, many, many times. Many, many times. I met him several times. Actually, I had a very great friend, a very dear friend, Bev Lyon, who was captain of Gloucester at one time, and he and Hammond, of course, used to play together. And he told me a wonderful story once about the Gloucester

scorecard. In fact, this used to happen regularly throughout every season. Frequently, when Charlie Parker was bowling, the scorecard would read, caught lion, bowled Parker many, many times, because Bev used to field the second

slip, and Wally Hammond at first, well, as everybody knows anything about cricket knows, Wally Hammond's one of the great slip fields of all time. He was so fast as he took the ball and literally flicked it out of the back of his hand to Bev, who threw it up in the air, and so it always went down as caught Lion Bolt Park. I mean, your acting took over, did it really?

As soon as you left, did you start straight away off, leaving school? No, no, not at all. No, I left school in 38, and in 39, I went into various strange parts of the world. Had you done any acting before the war? No, never. Never. In 41, well, school play, you know, when I was in Summerfields, I was in three plays, I think. the other actor who was with me

and is still very much alive a contemporary mind who's now an American citizen and lives in Palm Springs Patrick McNey and he played Brutus and I played Cassius and Julius Caesar and then he played

Bollingbrook and I played Mowbray and Richard II He went on to Eaton and he did and he's still a follower of cricket but no my cricketing career came to an end really with the outbreak of the war and then I tried to take it out of

but only just at weekends for fun after the war from 46 onwards played a bit for the next two or three years played in a marvellous place at Birkenhead I remember the Bowler Hat Club I don't know that oh yes I played for a team that Trevor Howard got together all stage and screen people

against it must have been the Lancaster team because Ken Cranston was the captain and Jack Eichen was playing and various other people I'll never forget the expression on Trevor's face when I said boldly I will open the bowling charged towards the crease

and with this rather strange bowling action as my first arm went over my first arm movement went over I caught my hand on my right hip and as my second arm went over so to speak there was nothing in the hand and the batsman looked wildly around

just a twirling arm well just a twirling arm he didn't know what had happened to the ball nor did anybody until it was retreat from the boundary behind me there was a moment of great shame well do you flung it back It went straight back towards the boundary behind me.

I'm not sure what that counts. Nothing, is it, no. The study. That would have been a dead boar, I suppose. I suppose so. Trevor's face, I think, would have preferred perhaps a dead bowler. Trevor used to play a bit for me. He was a jolly good cricket.

Oh, yes. And, of course, fanatically involved in the game. And I'm sure he's watching, well, there's nothing to watch, at the moment. Unless he doesn't come up here so often. He used to be regularly up here, you know. Oh, yes, I used to meet him here by now. He couldn't film during the Lord's Test match. There was, I believe, a similar clause in the contract of Boris Karloff, who was a tremendously keen cricketer and played with a famous Aubrey Smith team in Hollywood many years ago before the war.

And indeed, Aubrey Smith's contract, too, that if they came and worked in this country, they were under no circumstances be expected to work during the Lord's Test. There's a marvellous story about Aubrey Smith, who was known as Round the Cornersmith, because he used to appear from behind the umpire. It was a very good player. And I believe Captain Touring MCC team Captain England in South Africa In South Africa, that's right Well, he apparently was sitting just below us

Watching some game going on out in the middle I don't know what it was And predictably, of course he was snorting through his moustache And saying, oh God, take him off Oh my God, what a player Look at that field placing, the usual sort of remarks He was then at the height of his fame as an actor Been Knighted and a play that Duke of Wellington

and everything you can think of As in every British film Or British subject made in Hollywood in those days, and everyone in the world knew him. Apparently two rather elderly members were listening to this tirade that was going on, and were getting a little bit disgruntled about it, and one of them

finally turned to the other man, and he said, who's that fellow over there making all that noise? And the other man looked over, and he said, oh, yes, he said, a fellow called Smith used to play for Sussex. Lovely, isn't it? And, of course, Boris Karloff used to be regular at the Oval, at all the test matters. He was a member of Surrey, wasn't he?

Yes, but he also used to come here a lot. In fact, I've watched matches with him here. And he played for Uppingham when he was at school there. Just remind us what his real name was. William Henry Pratt. William Henry, very advisable to change that. Well, I suppose so, yes. Well, I've never found out, and I don't think anyone has ever found out where Karloff came from.

Boris always said it was in the family somewhere. But we've never really known. I remember asking his widow, Evie, Karlof, who was still very much alive. I remember saying to her, are you... Boris's fifth wife she said as far as I know because he was certainly married five times and possibly more

and there's a shroud of mystery hangs over that very appropriate he looked very distinguished there didn't he was a wonderful man so can we stick to Hollywood member and you were there I mean you lived there for 10 years and you've come back now was there any cricket going on nowadays

oh yes quite a bit as a matter of fact a lot of people you see there's a lot of West Indians there quite a lot of Pakistanis and people from countries that play cricket like Fiji and various other places in the Pacific. And there's quite a lot of teams out there. And they play regularly on Saturdays and Sundays.

I had a rather incredible experience, really, because I hadn't played cricket for well over 30 years. And Norman Gifford, I forget exactly when, I think it was about four or five years ago, brought a team out. They were touring around the world. And I found myself playing on matting in the Rose Bowl at Pasadena,

which, of course, normally is used football matches. And it was a wonderful experience. for me to be out there again with a bat in my hand the years rolled back up to your point and the team was a very remarkable one because apart from Norman Gifford he had Glenn Turner

he had Graham Goch he had David Gower he had Ian Bother No not a bad isn't bad Jeff Miller and various others and it was great fun and I was very grateful to Mr. Barlow because he kept on bowling me longhobs on the leg stump and even the Americans

with their baseball swings could score off those from time to time So you were among the runs, were you that day? Yes, I made a few runs, believe it or not. I remember trying to execute a late cut. But when Aubrey Smith played, was there a club, or did he, what sort of ground did they play on? They played on a ground in a place called Griffith Park, which still exists. I don't think there's a cricket pitch there anymore.

The might be, but I don't think so. I don't think they had any specific name as a team, but, of course, he was the captain and a very unforgiving one, too. Was he actually very tough? He looked terribly fast, didn't he? Oh, yes. And David Niven, Basil Ratham, Nigel Bruce, Willie Bruce, always used to, I think he kept wicked, but he always used to play golf in a brown felt hat.

He refused flatly to play in anything else, apart from his pads and his boots and his trousers, isn't it? But he always wore a brown felt hat. And if you look closely at the pictures of those days, you will see that brown hat, either on the ground or in his lap. Wouldn't be parted from it. There were one or two people who wore brown felt hat The T.C. Lari of Somerset used to wear one.

Really? And he kept wicket, yes. A brown felt hat. When was that? Oh, way back. This was 1927, 28, 29. Well, maybe Willie Bruce, Nigel Bruce, borrowed the idea.

He may have done. I remember Boris used to tell very, very funny stories about these matches because Aubrey Smith, I said, was a great dictator. If you didn't make some runs or hold a few catches, you were shamed almost forever. In fact, his house at the top of Coldwater Canyon, had an exact replica of Father Time here on the roof was a weatherbane. Oh yes, he used to fly the NCC flag and all sorts of things.

But Boris used to tell us very funny stories about Aubrey, one in particular when he suddenly said to his field for no particular reason, spread out, spread out, this next man coming in is a holy terror, spread out. So the entire field spread out to the boundary. And in came a very ancient gentleman indeed who wandered up to the wicked and waved rather feebly at the ball. and at the end of the over somebody said to Aubrey

well what was all that about Aubrey and he wasn't going to let on he said well when I remember him he used to hit everybody all over the field of course that must have been about 50 years before that was probably so short sight you didn't see any fielders at all

there's a chap like that who used to come down play against Wellington when I was playing there called Jerry Wigall Oh Jerry Wigall He used to demonstrate with his umbrella in the long room here Indeed he did he and CB Fry That's right they're tremendous arguments

Well, he, actually, I saw him play before the war against Wellington, as an O. W. There's no Wellingtonian. And he made runs, and he must have been 70 then. Yeah. And, I mean, I don't think they were bowling flat out at him, but I remember he was dab here and a dab there. But I've seen him giving demonstrations in the long room, marvellous off-drives of his umbrella.

G.J. V. Y, G.G. You good on initials. I'm marvelous on them. Sometimes. Telephone numbers, too, but not names, is a rule. Just back to the Hollywood thing. Did Ronald Coleman play, Or was it only in raffles? He bowled in raffles, do you remember? Bowled in a cap, Ronald Coleman. Did he actually play in real life?

I believe, well, I think I've seen a picture of him in flannels as to whether he played on it, I don't know. Errol Flynn played, David Niven played, Basil Rathman played, Bruce, Karloff, Smith. And from time to time, the occasional Englishman, whose name I might forget from time to time, who is, you know, an actor out there, because there were great many in those days,

would play in these timbs on pain of instant. from California. Unfortunately, I never saw any of those matches, of course, although I was alive when they were played. I wasn't living out there. No, there's still a certain amount of cricket being played out there. Back here now, I mean, do you ever watch cricket or do you watch it on the telly, or do you...

Oh, yes. I always try and come here to Lords for a test, obviously, and if possible, on a Saturday, or during the week if I'm free. Otherwise, I must admit, I do watch on television. And this is where the game has changed, of course, to such an immense degree since the days when I first started watching it by literally being there on the ground and now watching it on the box.

For obvious reasons, there are great improvements. That is to say, you can see a thing in much bigger close-up. You can see the way the ball moves, which you can't necessarily see on the ground, both through the air and off the ground. You can see the batman's footwork, perhaps a little bit more clearly. You can certainly see in the replays how somebody got out. and what the ball did, which you could never do in those days, of course. I think it's a great blessing to millions of people

would otherwise never be able to watch cricket at all because they wouldn't have the time or perhaps even the inclination depending on where they lived and going to a cricket ground. It's changed a bit, hasn't it, actually? Oh, yes. I mean, I was just going to say one of the major changes in television, of course, is, I suppose, in umpiring decisions, because no umpire is 100% infallible, Everybody knows, and they make mistakes like anybody else.

And, I mean, some of the decisions that were made, for instance, last winter, out in Australia, in some of those matches were a bit bizarre, and it was quite clear in the replays that the umpire was wrong. We were talking about that earlier this morning, that really you shouldn't show the replayed because they booed the umpire. Yes, and I think that's wrong, because he's doing the best he can, and he's the only person who can really judge better than anybody else. And you have a second look, you see it. When you have a second look, the umpire's wrong quite clearly on occasions, and of course it can create a lot of bad feeling. That's the disadvantage of television. But they probably always were. I mean, the great Frank Chester, I'm sure, made mistakes, but you didn't see.

He would never admit to one, I'm not sure. Like Alex Schelding was that, of course, the famous umpire, wasn't he? Wasn't he the one who's, when somebody said to him, Schelding, that wasn't out? He said, read tomorrow's paper. Wasn't that Alex Kilding? Yes, I think he did. There was also the village umpour said that, didn't he? As the Batson went past him and said, I wasn't out,

and the Alperseman said, well, look in Thursday's Gazette. And the Bathman said, you look, I'm the editor. Oh, I hadn't heard that. That's an exorcist on it. Well, that's marvellous. But they were great characters, of course, those people. Who umpired in Hollywood then? Do they find anybody who knew about figure-to-umpur?

No idea, by frankly, I have no idea at all. But they didn't have one out of them. Might have got on quite well. Maybe. I have really no idea. You were talking about the changes in the game. I think there are two major changes in the game. One, again, I'm only speaking entirely personally, and as a watcher of the game I love and have loved all my life. One is the intimidation involved.

Yeah, that's bad. Which is now got to a peak where people's lives are in dangers. They have been for some years anyway. And the other is that I don't think, again, I could be wrong. One is always inclined to look back. I don't think there are as many players today that you could really define as great players, as opposed to very fine players.

Obviously, something like Viv Richards is a great player. Obviously, Gary Sober is a great player. is a great player and so on. And Michael holding, a great bolo, and of course, from this country, too, and from all over the world. To me, the outstanding all round of today is Richard Hadley. Marvelous bolo, is neat.

Wonderful bowler. And he comes in a number seven and hits a half. And murders of bowling, yes. But how many great, truly great players are there? Where is Bradman's successor, or indeed McCabe's? Well, I suppose Gavisker is a sort of Bradman's successor on paper, but not the same. On paper, certainly, in terms of his record.

as an accumulator. But I think you and I were lucky to see some of the great... I mean, the Hendrens and the Hobbs is and the wood is. But I may be in ten years' time, people say, wouldn't it marvellous we saw the both of them, we saw the... Oh, yes. And how great they were and they aren't as great today. I was lucky enough to see the man who, to my way of thinking,

was undoubtedly the greatest fast bowler I've ever seen. And I suppose, in many respects, some people would agree that he was the greatest of all. You're going to say Limbaugh? No, Harold Lauer. Did you? I saw him. Lindwall would certainly be rather in second place, if not almost equal first. No, no, no, I never saw him in a test.

But I did see him bowl, and it was quite phenomenal. I went to see him this winter. Oh, really? In Sydney, yes, I know, he's in 85 or something. He feels embarrassed because he doesn't recognise people. But he's in lovely form, and he just talks and talks of the old days. Of course they love him in Australia, they don't they? They have done for years.

And his loyalty to Jardine and all this. Oh, yes. Would you do it again, I said, he said, only for Mr. Jardy. Really? Well, that's loyalty. Which is loyalty. But he was a phenomenal, bowler. I mean, I'd never seen anything to better the run-up, the action, the delivery, the pace, the accuracy.

Because he's shrunk now, as we all do. Well, he was never a huge man. He was very broad-shouldered. Well, he was a minor, aren't he? I think the best off-spinner I ever saw was probably Tafield. Terry Tafield. Trey Tafield. It's two mid-ons.

He had the mid-ons of a short mid-mid-on. That I don't remember. I remember that. I remember the tapping of the toe and everything. He was very, very accurate. Didn't spin it a lot, but very accurate and difficult to get away. I remember seeing Dennis Compton play when Dennis is his best form on him, he just hit it into the off field, and he had a very big off field. He used to build well outside the off stamp, and Dennis couldn't penetrate the field at all.

He was very difficult to get away. Very accurate. Can we abandon cricket for a moment and just talk about the acting? I mean, you've got this reputation. Did you go straight into the horror films? No, no, no, no, not at all. I think it's unfair. Do you mind being associated with horror films?

Well, yes and no. Let's put it this way. I mean, I've done them. Not as many as people think. And they were instrumental in my beginning and international career. So I can never ever turn my back on them. Not that I wish to. I started as an actor in 1947. And one of the reasons why you refer to me as tall dark and gruesome is that I am tall. I'm six foot four. In the first ten years of my career, I never got a job of any consequence because people are so much too tall. You know, we can't have him tiring over the leading men, not the leading ladies. Men. Even the so-called giants of six foot two and three felt smaller beside me and also because I'm very thin and may have looked even taller. An actual fact, that's nonsense. It's because I've been in a lot of pictures, 162 to be precise. That's staggering number. It's a rather large number. It's more than anybody alive today, a British actor anyway. And so I've had many people come out to me all over the world saying I didn't realize you were so tall. So that blows that theory out of the window. I started 10 years later in 1957. by doing the first film for Hammer, which was a horror movie called The Curse of Frankenstein. Okay, since then...

What were you then? You were the creature, weren't you? Yeah, that's right. You got it right. Amazing. Well, most people called it the monster. No, that was a mummy. A mummy. That was very uncomfortable. It was in the mummies were that. Oh, that was murder, because I tore the muscles in my neck and shoulders and everything,

carrying these ladies distances of 85 yards and things like that again and again and again. And they couldn't hold on to me because they were supposed to be unconscious. And so they were dead weights. You try that sometime. I know when your arms extended. And what is the creature? I mean, you were sort of revived off a table and the sparks came out of you and things.

Oh, all sorts of things, put together from bits and pieces of other people. I mean, was it painful or was it physically... No, it was very unpleasant on occasions, of course, because, you know, when you've got that kind of makeup on, it can be painful. And when you're swathed in bandages, you can't move. And somebody's just wooled you up and they cry out lunch, it can be even worse. But the Dracula business, I mean, I don't know how many Dracula films. Stop it down, satanic rites of Dracula,

Dracula Prince of Darkness, Dracula rises from the grave, the taste of the blood of Jackal. No comment. No comment. But you were always, you were killed by spares through the eyes or into the heart.

Yes, invariably. What happened? I mean, do they... Well, I still got the scars. To prove it, in fact. A lot of misconception about this. In fact, out of all those pictures that I've made, I've only made 15 horror movies.

I've played Dracula six times. The Frankestine thing once. Well, that's a compliment, thank you. And you've got a delightful set of teeth now. I mean, did you ever have... All mine. What about the fangs which we used to see? Oh, minute.

Mnute, barely visible in actual fact, but people used to get distorted ideas. It's like that wonderful film, Rosemary's Baby, which is the best horror film I've ever seen. I've had hundreds of people all over the world describe that baby to me in graphic detail. It's slanted eyes, it's clawed talents for hands. It's tail. and you never saw it. Of course. It's what you don't see rather than what you do see.

Leave it to the imagination of the audience. Long Cheney said that to Boris Karloff. Boris Karloff said it to me. I said it to other people, although I think I'm pretty well the end of the line here. And I haven't done a picture of that kind, actually, since 1971, which is 16 years ago. No. If you ask me who's the greatest actress I've ever worked with, that's an easy one. Letty Davis.

Really? Oh, yes. By a mile. A wonderful woman. Yes. Tremendous integrity as a person. Was he unselfish as an actress? Wonderful to me. Absolutely wonderful to me.

I couldn't have had a more thrilling time. Made a picture for Walt Disney. All about children who could levitate people. And I was levitated about 40 feet into the air on a very thin wire above the floor of a power station. You can have rather weird things happen to you in this business. The first picture I did after I went to Los Angeles to live in 75 was a thing called Airport 77, I think it was.

and I spent three days 30 feet under water drowning with a lead belt around my waist and when they take away the thing you can see through and they take away the thing you can breathe through you're on your own, you can't see anything and you have to close your throat because no bubbles must come out otherwise it's a living actor

so I spent three days doing that as a result of which I was made a member of the American Stuntmen's Association and I think I probably earned that more than anything else one other thing I endeared you to me not just the fact you love cricket but I read somewhere that you you like your favorite dishes are roly-poly pudding and spotted dick.

Oh, I adore both. I mean, are you a great English food? Yes. You see, I am. Almost a food freak, because I happen to think that we have some of the best food. I choose my words carefully. Some of the best food in the world. I can't say that we have some of the best cooking, which is rather a different thing.

But I don't think anything in the world can beat a really good English meal, really well cooked. I mean, roast lamb, roast beef, you name, anything along those lives. But nowadays, they always put additives to them and put all sorts of things different. from tasting. You want it. I mean, I don't eat, unfortunately, although I have a passion for it. I don't eat roly-poly pudding and spotted baked jam roll. Although the other day I had some suet pudding in a restaurant. I very bravely said, just bring what you like, you know. So I had three mountains piled on my plate, with treacle all over them. And you got through the first one, I'm afraid. Or bring butter pudding. Like a stone. Can you remember when you were young,

first started watching cricket, Bowler's taking these immensely long runs? No, well, I think I saw Gregory. I never saw Gregory in 1926, which is dreadful. I saw him at Cheltenham. Ah. And he seemed to have a pretty long run. And then there was, who was the chap of all the no balls when he came over for Australia?

Oh, not Tim Warwick. McCormick. Oh, well, Ernie McCormick was very, very fast. And he had a long run, too. Very, very fast. I remember watching him bowl. He was, but the fastest bowler I ever saw, and I actually saw him in Australia when I was a boy.

was Eddie Gilbert who took about five steps and you never saw the ball at all No, exactly He was almost a round arm, but he slung it Yes, he must have been a terror You heard the voice in the background Did you ever see him play, Tom Graveney?

Oh, many times, yes indeed Many, many times, very good golf at two Yes, well we... Yes, because that's... Can't he cricketers That is your other thing besides really pale golf Oh yes, I think you used to be one or two

If not better I got down to one They got down to one, what did you get down to? I got down to one less than that Did you? Yes. We all to get up. Not me more.

No, please. I don't think I could in my back. So who's the best player you've played with in golf? You play with the greats? I've been very lucky. After living in America for 10 years, I have played with just about all of them. The only one I haven't played with is Ben Hogan,

which is impossible. I mean, you just don't get a game with Ben Hogan. He plays with his friends at Shady Oaks, at Fort Worth in Texas, and that's it. But I played with Sneed and I played with Nelson. I had an incredible experience once in a talk. tournament as the only amateur. They played in threes, one amateur and two

professionals, and they were playing for an awful lot of money, so if you put it in the rough, they weren't going to come in and help you look. And the very first day I played with Lee Trevino and Craig Stadler, and the second day with Johnny Player, sorry, Johnny Miller and Gary Player, the third day with Jerry Page and Severus, and the fourth day with Greg Norman, Jack

Nicholas. These are a few names, you'll drop out. Well, I'm just casting casually, you know, aside, but the reason I'm saying that is you can just imagine the state of near paralysis. I got into with something like 20,000 people

on the golf course I'd never played or I'd played in the amateur championship a couple of times the English amateur I'd never played with people lining the course

from the tea to the green Yeah, but it does save the slice going into the wood doesn't it? Because it bounces against the crowd Well, I'm more of a hooker than a slice of them Yes

You also tell me You played with Richie once Richie Benner I did indeed I played with Richie both in Australia at the Australian which was revamped

by Jack Nicholas a few years ago when I was filming out there and he took me around the course which is a very very tough course indeed and before that the first time I ever played with him was one of these BBC pro-celebrity things it was at Glen Eagles

and in those days there were two amateurs that still are for that matter and two pros the amateurs changed from match to match the pros remain the same we had Sevi Biasteros and Littrevino and I think I was playing with Sevi and Richie was playing with Littrevina and as we walked down the first fair wage

which amazing to relate, both Bonneau and I hit off the tea, which in itself is remarkable. As we walked down, I said, we must try and enjoy this mustn't be, because it's pretty unnerving. And he said to me, unnerving, this is worse, far worse, than going out to try and save the ashes.

Well, I could listen to Johners and Sir Christopher Lee chatting all day. And if you enjoyed that episode, there are many more available of our test match special, including the Formula One superstar Mark Weber, who I spoke to in 2011. I've always wondered, Bart, if I got in your car, would I be able to drive it? Yeah, I could be able to get it to move.

Yeah, I could get you to drive it, yeah. I think, what are you weighing in it? I mean, what's your way? Rather too much. You are rakeishly thin, and ladies and gentlemen, it's turned down every piece of cake we've offered to. When I came in this morning, I saw the cakes. I know.

Everyone's, yeah. It's not a good place for a Formula One driver. Yeah, it's dangerous, man. Put me in your car. Come on, come on. Yeah, your car, I think, yeah, you would be, you'd be blown away, first of all, about the environment. You know, it's not comfortable, so it's not, it's not like, you know, obviously, a road car. Leather seats?

No leather seats, mate, no aircon, no radio. It's all very, very harsh. There's two pedals to start with, so you haven't got three pedals. I've only got throttle on a brake. The clutch is on the back of the steering wheel. So that'll be the first thing I'll have to talk you through. And then once the boys had fired the car up, we're in neutral. we'd need to pull the clutch on the back of the steering wheel

and you'd change gears by two little paddles behind the steering wheel basically so you'd pull one of the paddles and you'd see you'd feel the car go into gear and it's a bit like an automatic in a way but it's not, it's still a manual gearbox you need to still control it and then you'd slowly release the clutch going away from you with your fingers the fine you know the detail is very very very good

the feel you have you the fingers is fine so and then you drive out the pit lane and then you're out there mate really so it would yeah then the car would be very much would be laughing at you I think from that point onwards it would be um yeah it would be uh the cars are designed to you know the ties the brakes everything you've got to get they only perform well when they're

when they when everything gets very very hot and you know the brakes the ties everything you know there's such a narrow band for the car to operate otherwise they feel very awkward and clumsy. I feel all the same. I mean, it's yours the same as... Very similar, very similar. I mean, obviously, you know, from a car at the front of the grid, which is certainly ours in the top few to a car at the back,

we're talking four seconds per lap, which is a lot in our game. You know, if you finish three or four laps behind in a Grand Prix, then obviously you're on a different planet. It'd be like, not even a comparison of me going out in the middle out there. You know, it's just I know roughly. what I'm doing but you're not at the races basically but the car for you would feel the same I mean everything would be

similar the down force all that sort of stuff you wouldn't because you're not going to test the car to the limit so they're all basically the same yes and you can hear the whole interview for BBC Sounds so to make sure you don't miss a thing just hit the subscribe button

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