Test Match Special - #40from40: Sue Townsend

Episode Date: July 30, 2020

Sue Townsend, author of the cult classic Adrian Mole series, joins Aggers for a chat in 2012.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. The Boundary on BBC Sounds. Hello, welcome to another podcast from our special series celebrating 40 years of View from the Boundary interviews. I'm Jonathan Agnew. Over the years, we've spoken to guests from all over who've had a profound impact on the world around them, from politicians to

musicians, actors to athletes. Today we hear from someone whose work influenced a whole generation of angst-ridden teens in the 1980s and continues to inspire and entertain today. The secret of Adrian Mole, aged 13 and 3 quarters, was released in 1982, and within three years had sold close to 2 million copies. Many sequels followed, the title character's journey moving alongside real-life events of the subsequent decades. Its author, Sue Townsend, grew up in Leicester, and as we'll hear, loved cricket from an early age. In 2012, two years before her death at the age of 68, I visited Sue at home, and she told me about how and where she listened to Test Match Special. and always listen to it in the car and in the bathroom.

Oh, okay. Because that's where the radios are pre-tuned. Right. Yeah. A lengthy state, what, you're in the bath? Yeah. I can picture it. I'll next time we're commentating, wait.

It's not, it's not a pretty sight, so don't picture it. No. But what do you like about cricket then, and cricket on the radio? Oh, I love the commentary, of course. I mean, I do. I'm not flattering you. I just love the, you know, the rambling. nature of the conversation and how

it changes with everybody that sort of comes in and out on the mic and the good humour of it and I like that kind of decent Englishness you know because you don't get it much and if you do you

you know people who accuse you of being semi-fascist that's true you're very Leicester person aren't you you born just down the road from Grace Road Yeah, I was. The estate, Saffron Lane, in which you...

Yeah, worked. Worked and talked much about in your books, of course, is just up the road from Grace Road. It is, yeah. Did you get down there much at all to see any of the cricket? I prefer it on the radio, because I can't see now. I'm registered blind. I mean, I can see certain things, but I can't see the cricket, unfortunately.

It was cricket that made me realise, actually, that I'd got a serious sight problem because my husband was driving me to the station as he did a lot of mornings in a week because I worked a lot in London and it was about 8 o'clock in the morning and I looked over Victoria Park and I could see these cricketers

and I said, that's so early to be playing cricket in the morning and they're all in whites And I said, what's going on? And he said, nobody is playing cricket soon. There's nobody on Victoria Park. And I said, of course, there is. I can see them. And what it was, we were going by, and it was the war memorial,

the white marble seen through trees as you travelled along. The brain obviously sent a message to me, white, and it was cricket. you know the brain is when you lose your sight the brain panics a bit and keeps sending messages that it thinks fits the image that you're

trying to get such as potato peelings looking like rubber gloves or vice versa so he's throw the rubbed gloves in the bin thinking they're potato peelings it will supply an image yeah and then it gets used to the fact that you can't see you properly that was to be a... That was the first

first thing that was made me real life. It's sad in a way that cricket should have done that, really? I know, I know, but I do love it. I like the formality of it, and I like the fact that there are lots of rules. You know, I'm a person that doesn't like rules. Well, I was going to say, you strike me as one of those least formal people. I do kick against rules when it concerns me. But I actually like the formality of cricket and the fact that there are umpires

and now the third umpire is a good thing I think do you like all that do you yeah I like the whites and I loathe 2020 I hate the clothes they wear they look like 1930s baseball players and it's such a recurring theme on this little slot you know view from the boundary the guests that we have

maybe we're all a certain age too well I am certain age I'm 63 yeah but it is people people we have on here are determined test cricket lovers and they're always volunteer oh I don't like 2020 before i've even had a chance to ask them often here you are you obviously very attached to kids though i'd assume aren't you or is that all made up with Adrian well stuff do you do what's that

well your attachment to kids and the kids kids love 2020 oh yeah i mean i've got 10 grandchildren as well they're not keen on 2020 either because they look well they think they look ridiculous they don't wear englishmen don't don't look right in American clothes they're cut differently They're style to make them look like boys rather than men And I think in the cricket whites they look like men They look like proper men You know, a masculine man I'm talking about This is going to get me into trouble

I know it is No, you're right But no, I like a bit of difference in the clothing You know, in the sexes Yes And I agree with cricket whites And the green background is the way to watch cricket in my idea.

I think so too, yeah. And there has to be, well, it has to be traffic for Henry. It does. It has to be, you know, public transport. Geoffrey Boycott, to offer that as a name? Geoffrey? Oh, God. When Geoffrey was on, when Geoffrey was batting, I used to live in the high fields.

Yes. And when Geoffrey was batting, we would all watch the cricket. And when he came in, after about five minutes, I'd get up and I'd be off. potatoes, cooked dinner, cup pudding, eat it, wash up, come back, knowing it's still be there. Oh yes. And we wouldn't miss anything. I mean, there might have been a tiny difference in how he held that bat, but very little.

He would have scored maybe another 10 runs by then, wouldn't he, surely? I mean, he'd have taken it to advance from 10 to 20. Yeah, he may have done that or gone into the teens, but... Yeah. Yeah, but now I quite understand his psychology now. You know, I do. I'm fascinated by this business of someone who is a Republican. Doesn't seem to like the rules of, I don't know, the strict rules and regulations and so on.

I fascinated, therefore, why cricket should be attractive. It seems like a very old paradox, doesn't it? It is, yeah. I agree it is, but it has to be fair. That's the main thing, the main quality that cricket has. It has to be fair. And that's why I was so upset. You know, the finding, you know, when people have found the brown leather jacket.

Oh, yes, match fixing and corruption. Yeah, I mean, it's so distressing. It really is distressing. I hate corruption because it corrods everything, every area of life. Yeah. You just feel that cricket shouldn't be that sort of sport that should be tainted by that, don't you? Oh, no, no, no. No sport, no sport.

Now, being a Leicester girl, Sue, I mean, David Gower must have been one of your pin-ups, I mean, a bit younger than you, of course. No, I was way too old for him even when he was, yeah, when he was young. Yeah. I've seen plenty of middle-aged women down there at Grace Road. Oh, I agree, yeah. Waving from the stands at him. Yeah. I'm sure, yeah.

I mean, I admire David Gow for one thing, and that was, was it being in a plane going over? Oh, yes, he did. He did that. That was breaking rules. That was breaking rules. Yes, that was real liberation. I was torn both ways then. You know, I kind of admired the cheek.

Because it was a big gesture. It was. It wasn't just a bit of... Fortunately, it wasn't quite as big as it might have been because he wanted to go up with some water bombs and drop them on the pitch. And the pilot of this Tiger Moth, it was in Queensland.

Yeah, it's in Queensland. Bruce McGarvey. I can still remember his name of that pilot. You know, it's etched on my... I was reporting on this. It's etched on my mind. 1991 it was. And David wanted to take some water bombs up.

And Bruce said, no, mate. You're not going to go and do that because you're going to drop them on the players. Tell me when you first realised it was David Gower. Oh, that's a very good question. And quite a long story. I don't mind.

I'm fascinated. Well, that's okay because I was tipped off by a photographer. And so I had the story exclusively to myself. I worked for a tabloid paper at the time. So I had it all to myself. But one of the highlights, well, there have two highlights of this particular story. The first was that David had been subbed the money for the flight by the tour manager,

who was most unimpressed by the whole thing, if you remember. And the second was at the end of play, when word got out that it was David Gower, and the manager went looking for him to go and have it out with him. He was actually back at the airfield having more photographs taken by all the photographers. So it was a chaotic, a chaotic scene. But is it funny you should remember that rather than any of his lovely hundreds or... Yeah, yeah, it is. That's the power of the tabloid press, I suppose.

I do remember. I mean, I do remember he had a lovely languid style. And I understand he's a kind of languid person. Yes, he is, definitely. Yeah. He can imagine him lolling around, you know, in the 20s. I think that's probably his time, really. Lord Gower, I think.

Yeah, Lord Gower. Well, he was a Lester man. I mean, so here we are in your lovely kitchen, a lovely house. And what a successful career you've had. I mean, do you still look back at those? 80s, Adrian Moll and all of that. I mean, was that really sort of the high point for you? Well, I was the secret right.

I left school at actually 14 because in those days, if your birthday fell in Easter, you could leave. We were called Easter leaveers. And it was kind of shameful, but anyway, there were lots of jobs in those days. You could just walk into any job. And if you didn't like it in the morning, you could go to another one in the afternoon.

I carried on writing because I enjoyed writing compositions at school things like a day in the life of a penny So you were writing at school It wasn't though you left at 14 because you just weren't interested in anything No, I was writing And I was getting a lot of praise For my writing

And I entered the school essay competition It had to be fictional There was me and another girl called Sue Johnston We didn't know who would win but one of us would win. We'd been shortlisted. I was convinced I'd win. I'd been working on this thing for a long while.

And I didn't win, and Sue Johnston won, because the English mistress said that I had used a cliché. Oh, no. And it was clouds like cotton wall. I'd never, to my knowledge, ever used it or heard it or read it in a book. Is it frowned upon? Oh, God, yes. I use it all the time.

Oh, oh, no. I'll change. I'll change a script. It really taught me a lesson. And I, if, I mean, a lot of English is, there's no way around it. You have to use that cliche. But as far as possible, I steer away from them. Right. Yeah.

What about sort of similes and, like Henry Blue felt, you know, people were like hitting a ball, like a kicking horse. Well, we're always saying that the ball streaks over the outfield or like a rocket. No, no, that's all, that's okay, because that does summon up the speed. Right. Yeah, I don't mind those at all. But it's, when you come to write fiction and write or write poetry or, I think in speech it's going to be, you know,

it's going to be allowed. But I do hate over the moon. People have started saying obviously all the while now. Yes. You know, I almost said obviously It's just amazing From high court judges To politicians

To the people on the Jeremy Cow show They're all using obviously And as we go forward As we go forward As if we have any choice We can only go forward Yes Interesting how you pick these things up

Well I've got You know I have to listen really carefully Because I have to try and replicate the way that people use their language. We will speak the same language, but we use it very differently. Do you find it frustrating that you can't see the cricket? I mean, you listen to it. Does it help that you have seen cricket when you could see?

Yeah. And so, I mean, what always amaze me are blind people from birth who have never seen it? I know. Never seen cricket. And yet they love it. Like Peter White. Peter White, who's a friend of mine, yeah. How do they imagine it?

I can't imagine. I can't imagine that. But I used to play cricket when I was a child. Oh. Yeah, in our neighbourhood, all the prefab children, whose fathers are all very clever, mothers too, we used to go onto what we called the park, but really it was just a field of grass, wild grass,

because it was all farmland. After the grass had been cut or sithed down, we would first have a grass fight, which I was always really fearful of because they'd bend these tall stalks of grass and use them as a kind of baton. Oh, right, like a whip. Like a whip, yeah.

So I was always cringing away. There were a lot of boys in the area, not that many girls. And then when we cleared the grass away, we'd play cricket. And I was on the outfield, because I was a really good thrower. Right. And catcher. But, in fact, the catcher in the wry. Because that's where the title comes from.

They're playing baseball. And when you get to the rye grass, that's the boundary. Boundary edge? Yeah, that, yeah. You were the catcher in the grass? I was, yeah, I was, yeah, in the long grass. I got hit on the head twice with a cricket ball. Right.

I've never forgotten it. No. It's one of the big things of my life, both times. Yeah, batting or dropping catches? No, no, no, no. being hit by the batsman and hitting the ball so hard. Trying to get the boundary, trying to get a six, and I was there. And I think it's instinctive.

If the ball's coming towards you, you kind of put your, turn your head and put your hand. What I did anyway. And the ball somehow came through the middle of my hands and hit my temple really, really hard. And you do see stars. Yes, that's also quite a common thing in these interviews, actually. The number of people who have played cricket, who did. all get hurt at some stage she's playing, often batting or something and, you know, teeth knocked out or hit on the head or broken fingers.

It's a dangerous game. Why do we love this sport? Because we think it will never happen to us. I mean, the sport's bigger than our insignificant little worries about safety, especially when you grew up, like I grew up in the late 40s and 50s. You know, I mean, this is a big cliche about how you could leave your house in morning with a bottle of water and jam sandwiches or whatever and I'm just not come back until after dark you just go and if you got hungry you're like a feral child you eat berries and if you were desperate that lovely succulent grass that soft that has a soft leaf and you pull the outer

skin off the grass and inside it's beautiful sweet in a what would you call it this is like a fleshy green delicious I've forgotten all about that yeah we used to eat all sorts of stuff and of course there were lots in the summer and early autumn

there's lots of fruit growing on you know overhanging from people's gardens and where we played was in Lady Ralston's estate they moved to somewhere in Norfolk to another manor house and we played in the deserted mansion, you know, in the ballroom and everywhere.

And they had all these ornamental ponds and trees and we had, I can't tell you how wonderful it was, the playing. Come on, then, all this secret writing, Sue. I mean, how did you, did we really tucked away quietly, not telling anybody what you were doing and writing the secret diary of Adrian. I wrote the first three months of Adrian. when my oldest son Sean said and it's the only thing taken from life in Adrian Mole he said why can't we go to safari parks like other families do it right and it was the first kind of

mini criticism of the family and I just remembered feeling like that myself and every child has to feel that at some point because if we didn't we'd be clones of our parents you know we have to be ourselves and so I instantly felt this thing because this makes me sound like a complete mad woman I just felt this family descended I heard Adrian's voice I heard because Adrian was such an uptight keep your bedroom tidy boy yes he had to have kind of feckless parents you know who like a bit of a drink but not as much as he thinks He thinks they're both alcoholics, just because his mother drinks at Christmas. I could be in a children's own this time next year, he writes.

And then because his parents were, as they were, his grandmother had to be a traditional grandmother. Yorkshire pudding grandmother, he called her, gravy grandmother. And so that's the immediate family. But then, you know, there's his friends, his headmaster. Rick Lemon, the youth leader there are all these people that I kind of half fall in love with

the park they're just you know they're there for a few pages and they disappear forever why are you writing it secretly though to start with why did you

hide yourself away you know I was reading from the age of eight and a half I learned to read with the I was a late reader and my mum taught me to read when I was away from school

with mumps and she came went to a rummage sale and she brought home a big stack of William Brown books you know William oh it was away I you know I asked her to read what was underneath those lovely scratchy illustrations and um and she read that and I don't know what happened but it you know I was away for three weeks I'm in that three weeks I learned to read because I'd learned to read with William books, I'd got quite a kind of sophisticated tasting books.

I missed out that whole kind of... I was going to say, Enid Blighton, and John and, yeah, things like I'd never know. I didn't read Enid Blighton. I just missed it out. And I soon got through the books, and I went to the school library looking for more. And I found a few. And then I kept asking for them, and the teachers would say, well they'll be in the library

and I hadn't realised I could join the library so this was amazing you can have four books a week I think and I was soon reading in the school holidays three books a day

yeah and I was accused of wasting the library in time nobody could have read those books but I became a speed reader right from the start are we taking in the words and the phrases

I'm taking in the words, but your brain is not reading the descriptions. You know, the description has to be where you are, if you're outside the weather, because that's quite important, where you are, and is it summer, spring? I don't want to read three pages of what an autumn leaf looks like. You know, I don't want that. I want to get on with the story. Is it gritty time? I want to quickly get on with what the characters are saying to each other,

especially if it's comedy you don't want to mess about with a lot of ovid description i mean that is you know i can do that fine writing if i want to but i i don't want to you know i as george orwell said good writing is to do with putting the right word in a pleasant order and a plain word at that if there's a plain word that everybody understands and and and and fits the rhythm of the sentence and use it. Yeah. What was the process, sir, when you, I mean, what were you writing it as, or exercise book or something, where? When did you actually bring this book out and say, actually, I've been working on this for three months? And I think it's rather good.

When the kids were in bed, you know, I had three children under five at one time. When they were in bed, and I can only ever write when my children are in bed and unconscious. I used to write all sorts of stuff, poetry. and short stories, you know, starting novels and, you know, messing about with words. And I bought those cheap reporters' notebooks. And I eventually, after 20 years, I filled a fridge, freezer box with these scraps and pieces. But Mole was just thrown into the box under the stairs. Really?

Yeah. And the Safferlana estate, which anyone in Leicester will know, was it based on there? And, I mean, I should think life on there was pretty challenging. No, no, Mole wasn't based on that. The Mole family were the first family in their long line of relations to buy their own house. So they got out of them. Yeah, so they, yeah, his mother lives in a council house and Burt Baxter lives in a council house.

I mean, pensions bungalow on the south, but the moles were just getting a foot on that bottom ladder. They wouldn't be able to do it now, but then it was just starting to happen. And the television series, Sue, I mean, were you involved in that? I mean, you often read or hear of frustrations for the author, or the book becomes a film and they're not involved. Were you involved in that?

Yeah, I was, yeah. I wrote the first script. Yeah, I wrote the script for the first. six episodes. I've worked with a director who's Hungarian, Peter Sastie. Most of his work had been with Hammer Horror. Right. Excuse me.

Look for change of direction then. He directed that film where the baby climbs out of its cot and somehow manages a baby of about six months. Somehow manages to open the front door and then crawl down the street. Right. Crawl into somebody else's house. crawl upstairs and kill the neighbour who's a sleeping bed.

Strangely, Jonathan, nobody suspected the baby. Oh, really? I suppose you wouldn't. What a strange man to direct a direct major mole? Well, I think that's why they all had Birmingham accents. And Beryl Reid thought she knew what a Lester accent was. And I was very, very particular about they had to have Lester accents. I'd written to that rhythm of Lester.

There's a, you know, every, every, Lester. I mean, it's got a slack, that slack chore. Yes. We love it, though. It's like, where were we last night and who were we we? Me dook. That's right. No, they did it in Birmingham, and there was outrage.

And they were letters to the mercury. that, you know, they didn't, they sounded Birmingham, which they did. I do regret that. I really do regret that. Do you regret the series? You regret the TV series? Yeah.

Really? Yeah. It was better on the radio. It's meant for the radio. Yeah. It was just a huge success, though, I mean, it was part of all our lives in those days. It was huge, yeah. Yeah.

Did it surprise you? God, yes. Yeah, when I heard that the publisher was going to print 5,000 copies, I rang him and asked him not to because I couldn't possibly see. And I didn't want my name on it either. I thought it was spoiled. You know, there it is, secret diary of Adrian Moll by Sue Townsend. You know, I mean, S. Townsend would have been okay.

You think, because, yeah, I was going to ask you, how did you get into a 13-year-old boy's head? Well, I worked as well for 11 years, part-time in the youth club on the Ayrs Monster Estate, Magpie Youth Club. And I knew how they talked to each other when no adults were around, because they didn't regard me as an adult. I was just a piece of furniture. I've been there that long, you know. So I was kind of privileged to listen to them in a way that their parents, they would never talk in front to their parents. parents. They would never, I mean, there might have been the odd boy, but it was very unusual for them. And yeah, so I think I know how they felt and how they spoke. And anyway, it's not

that different from teenage girls. I think that's the time when we have more in common with each other. You know, our emotions are huge, deep black depression, self-pity. And then exhilaration and madness of being, you know, falling in love or anything. You know, life is fantastic and exciting, and I can't wait to live it properly. And then that kind of gloom again. I was looking through your other titles, of course, and a couple there are on the Royal Family.

Mm. You bring the Queen to the SAF, don't you? Yeah, I do. Queen and I. Yeah, yeah. There's a Republican government, and they, the first act, the first law they, make is to depose the royal family and make them go and live on a council estate.

Yeah, they're sent all of the worlds to live on the Saffron Lane, which I call the Flowers Estate. And where the queen is, that used to be called Hellebore Close, but the children have removed the B-O-R-E, and it's now hell close. So that's where the queen lives. How does she get on? Well, the neighbours are kind to her. People say things like, well, she can't help being born into it, can she?

You know, like they pity her, if anything. And they help her cook simple things, show her how to cook simple things. They take her to the market at the end of trading to pick up the rotten, or not so rotten fruit and vegetables, just to make the budget go further. Because, you know, the Queen is on a pension, a normal pension. State pension. How do people think of when you write sort of Republican-type books like, that. Do you get any sort of hostile reaction to that or what do you get?

The only letter I remember was from a vicar in the south of England who said I should be ashamed of mocking the queen and the institution of the monarchy. I expected a lot more, but I now realised that I could have been a bit more skeptical about the royals. In fact, I think I did what I always do with my characters. I kind of fall for them. I can imagine what it's like to be them. Yes. I can especially imagine what it's like to be Prince Charles who tried everything

to make his parents proud of him and I, you know, my heart goes out to him because he looks he wasn't suited to be born into the royal family. He was suited to be born to parents Hampstead parents who were into the arts and

were very gentle and sent him to a Montessori school. You're writing now with your failing sites. How do you physically do it? How do you actually write? Your system going somehow? Yeah. I mean, you don't forget how to write on the page.

No. But I can't read it back. So, Sean, my oldie song, reads it back and types it. So you write in longhand? I can write. Yeah, I write in long hand. Right. Yeah.

I never did learn to type. I hated typing. I've never been any good at things I'm not naturally good at. As long as people are kind of. I kind of drift along, a bit like David Gower. Yes, there you are. Unfortunately. Do you think your writing has changed since you've lost your side?

Are you writing more now as a blind person sees the world, if you like? No, I don't think so, because, you know, you have to ask where writing comes from anyway. Nobody knows, particularly. But all I know is this is your subconscious. And as soon as you start to think about a subject, all the knowledge, you have already from the day one of your birth is there in the back of your brain it's everything you've seen everything you've heard everything you understand everything you've read is there and it's like dredging it out you know you kind of dredge it out and then of course you put it on the

paper on down on paper i mean somebody once said writing is easy all you do is to stare down at a white piece of paper until your forehead bleeds. Some people say forehead. I don't know which is right. Either, but I know the feeling. That's an awful feeling when you look at the blank piece of paper or blank screen. It is difficult. If you care about it enough, it's going to be difficult. And then you dread it out, then you put it down, and then you rewrite, constantly, constantly rewrite. Anything what you've done, sort of thing? Yeah. Take out any extraneous words. don't have a string of adjectives. You know, just think a while and choose one pertinent adjective.

You know, just get rid of all the kind of fuzzy stuff around a sentence. I used to teach, well, try and teach creative writing on a Greek island. I wouldn't do it in a drafted church hall here, but it was a fantastic place to write and to think, you know. At the start of the course, I used to give my, well, they always called them participants, a red pen. And that was the editing pen. And then I'd give them ridiculous deadlines, like 10 minutes, to write your obituary and put in two lies. So that people had to guess what the lies were.

And there was a guy who discovered the ozone layer. We all thought that was a lie, but it wasn't. There was an old lady who danced with the Bolshoi ballet. We thought that was the lie. It wasn't. You quickly get to know people. With the lies they do tell, you find out what they wished had happened and what could happen still. It's a wonderful exercise.

I say that to all creative writing teachers. Use it. Wasn't that a treat. Hearing from Sue Towns, and I can't believe it's eight years ago, that interview was recorded in her kitchen in Leicestershire. We've got so many interviews in the archive for you to enjoy Here's a taster of another classic It's Sir Elton John

I said I did score 24 at Lourdes I played in a couple of charity matches I played in one in Lords when I had green hair And I walked through the long room And the looks that I got as I walked through the long room And it was the longest walk out to the crease I can ever remember of so I thought Please let this end

And I got to the crease and I thought Oh please let me saw one run And I scored 24 And that was okay And the next week I got got so carried away, I said, yes, I'll play again next week. It was from the Vic Lewis 11. And I played in Richmond, or Barnes, and Robin Jackman got me out first ball.

Down to Earth is a bump. Yes, exactly. There's a decent bowler, though, Robin. I heard him commentating the other day on the South Africa game against New Zealand. 82-3, that's when you really, I suppose, your love for cricket became more widely known for those of us who followed the game. Because do you latch onto the 82-3 tour there down in Australia? Do you happen to have a tour? I was the first tour that I really latched on is when we won the Ashes.

86, 7. Yeah. And I, going down to Australia and New Zealand quite a lot, as I did, I used to love hanging around with the cricketers, and the Australian cricketers and the British cricketers. And they were so much fun. They're more down to earth. Go out for a drink with me, even go out to dinner.

We had a lot of fun. Got up to a lot of mischief together. And then, of course, when we won the Ashes at Melbourne on that boxing day, was one of the greatest nights. I'll ever remember, and one of the most drunken nights ever remembered. It was such a great occasion, and it was so great to be part of a team that had won the Ashes and to actually have been there and seen it. It was quite an extraordinary memory.

And I must say, I've always gotten on with the Aussies and always gotten on with the English cricketers. There's something about, as I say, hanging around with cricketers that I really, really like. They're very, very funny. We used to organise Australian, when we played in Perth, did concerts in Perth, and Dennis Lilly would organise with Rodney March and Australian 11 against the British 11 out there. And I remember Alex Stewart was playing club cricket out there. So it shows you how old I am.

That's right. It's right as the sum of the Perth he was. David Gow described you as England's head groupie actually on that tour. I was pretty, yes. But he better be careful because some of the names that those cricketers are earned during that. They better, I could blackmail them easily. If you want to hear that full interview, you can do so. on BBC Sounds. And to make sure you don't miss anything from Testamount Special, just press

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