Test Match Special - #40from40: Toby Jones

Episode Date: November 19, 2020

Star of stage and screen Toby Jones takes a View from the Boundary at the Oval in 2019, telling Daniel Norcross how he keeps across Test cricket wherever he is in the world.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. Hello, this is Daniel Norcross, bringing you a classic view from the boundary from the TMS archives. One of the joys of following cricket is discovering that a familiar name shares a passion for the sport, and today's guest is a real lover of our great game. Toby Jones is a BAFTA and Olivier award-winning actor, famous for appearances in such films as Frost Nixon,

The Hunger Games, Captain America and the Harry Potter series. Off the screen, he's truly passionate about cricket and, as we'll hear, make sure he keeps up to date with the score and TMS wherever he might be in the world. In September 2019, during the final test match of a remarkable summer, Toby sat down next to me at the Oval. We began by discussing one of Toby's more recent roles, his narration of cricket documentary The Edge. Forget what you think you know. England versus Australia. The ashes. It's an opera.

It's brutal. Intensive. Think a fistful of dollars. Think grumble in the jungle. Remorseless. The judgment of your guts. Exposing your demons. Yes, of course, it's Toby Jones.

Welcome to TestBow special, Toby. Hi there, Dan. The Edge, let's start with The Edge, because you're a massive cricket fan. I've been chatting to you outside. Certainly a big fan of Test cricket in particular, and Barney Douglas, who made the film, listening to that text,

I haven't heard that since we recorded it. And it's funny, because I think Felix White has just released that as a single. has, yeah. So I'm hoping to be top of the hit parade of it with that. I'm slightly worried about it now

listening to the text and maybe if I'd known it was going to be a hit single I could have adjusted it in some way. Well, there's a danger you might actually

at the top of the pop's a stop now. I know. I do know that. You might have to be coming back week after week and perform that. When you got the call

to do that, I've just gone through a list and it's a very small list of the many things that you've been in and I suppose a lot of people go, oh, Harry Potter and Captain Marvel, etc.

secretly was doing the edge, you know, was it up there? Yeah, I mean, you're very lucky in my job because you get these unexpected opportunities to, suddenly your hobbies, the things you use that are totally unrelated to your work, suddenly become linked to your work. And test cricket has been such a big part of my sort of relaxation time and is still a major source of connection between friends and stuff and banter between friends.

So then the chance to take part in a documentary about it, because I love the fire in Babylon, that one about the West Indies tour. Just thrilling, you know, thrilling to work with Barney. And then to see it at Lords, I think we went to a screening in the long room, which is another great opportunity. You've been watching Test Cricket for an enormous amount of time. We discovered something extraordinary.

43 years ago, I think, that would have been, wouldn't it? 43 years ago, you were sat, and it was almost this time of year, late August, wasn't it? Well, the series was lost, wasn't it? Yep. West Indies were 2-0 up, 1976, and it turns out that we were both sitting within about

20 yards of each other, the far end to the ground from where we're watching. It was extraordinary. And it was the same day, wasn't it? It was a day that Dennis Amos... He was on 200, wasn't it, when the day started, and England were bowled out eventually. It was amazing.

It was watching, holding for the first time, coming in from the boundary here. and all those great players like Collis King all the players I sort of fantasised about they're just fantastic players and at the end of the day we thought well if we can get them out quite quickly and then Fredericks and Greenwich

would just stormed it didn't they well they didn't lose a wicket did they I think they got from memory 186 without loss so they didn't enforce the follow-on which at the time was quite unusual but I suppose it was very hot wasn't it boiling up boiling hot and they didn't enforce a follow-on and then sent England back out to bat,

so we've got to see yet more carnage. But what was it about that team? Because you talk to anybody, any Englishmen, about that team, and they still revel in the wonder of that side, in a way that, you know, I'm not sure that young England fans will have a fond memory of Cummins and Hazelwood taking their batting side apart.

But there's something about, when you had sort of 10, 11, the exoticism, the brilliance of that side. Well, I didn't really, I mean, I'd been into cricket for some time, then. I've been playing it a lot, but I'd never been to a live test match. And that was the first series where I really understood this five-day business, that you were into something that was going to last for five whole days, and that you could be involved in an unfolding drama. Of course, many of the tests in that series didn't last the full five days, but they were the first

big personalities that I sort of got used to. I was vaguely aware of Thompson and Lily just before that and Gooch getting those two ducks that was sort of vague but this series I was totally engaged with Richards and because Richards was just so excited to watch and and Greenwich and then this legendary thing of holding coming in from the boundary and this unrelenting pace that everyone's always always talked about it's funny actually years later I was on holiday in Antigua in the restaurant and I was going guys just a amazing to be here in the West Indies. I remember that seriously.

This is it. And we went to St. John's ground in St. John's. And I was so sort of like thrilled by it. There was no cricket going on at the time. Just club cricket. And Andy Roberts walked into this restaurant with two fish for the guy behind, you know, to barbecue behind. And I just sort of went out to him in a sort of trance

because this guy had been a seminal personality in, you know, in getting me into test cricket really. because he's such a gentle, fierce cricketer, you know. Well, they're larger than life characters, aren't they from? I think when you're a kid, every cricketer that comes into your orbit is larger than life. Have you met Michael Holding yet? He's just down the right. No, no, no. Slightly nervous.

Well, we need to make, we absolutely need to make that happen. It's especially nerve-wracking here at the Oval. You mentioned there people like Viv Richards and Michael Holding, and I want to talk more about your cricket, but just a brief segue on that. You talk a lot about, you've just been talking about test cricket and the time that it takes up, but also you talk there about the mannerisms, the mannerisms of Viv Richards. And your acting is a lot connected with mannerisms and movement, isn't it, and body movement. Yes, I mean, well, I suppose everyone's acting is to a certain extent,

I wish I had a sort of more noble mission than this, but I can't help but be interested in, in human behaviour and where I, the drama school I trained at, the physical life of characters you play was at the forefront of it. So when you watch, in this case a sportsman, I'm fascinated by the mannerisms of batsmen between balls, the way people focus themselves, you know, obviously we talk about Steve Smith, you know, and all of that, all of that,

behaviour that seems superfluous and yet is intimately linked to how they perceive their purpose in the game and their concentration. But you know, you're trying to find that in any character you play, but those guys, the West Indians, it was almost

like, we really are putting in the minimum amount of effort to beat you so thoroughly. And that was what made them so kind of cool and so exciting. And you remember, Dan, it was very different because the fans then, it was, the atmosphere was so fantastic as well because this was like the local ground for most of the West Indian population.

Well, you remember the terrace away to our rights by the Archbishop Tennyson School? That used to be where clanking cans. Steel drums are right, yeah. Fantastic. It was a totally different atmosphere, and it was much vaster as well. I don't think that's just in my childhood imagination. The actual outfield was that much vaster and holding, was creating kind of theater, wasn't he, by running in so far.

Viv Richards had that much further to swagger to the wicket. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the swagger is what you loved. And, you know, in my own sort of ridiculous, you know, when you're learning to play a sport, you start by acting like cricketers you've seen on TV. And, you know, even when I was very, very young, playing in the back garden,

and you're commentating on yourself playing cricket. you're sort of imitating the cricketers you see on TV. So there you can be Viv Richards or college team. So would you do that? Would you sort of walk out of your back garden, shed, just kind of pretending you have a little swagger? I'm not sure about the shed business. The pavilion may have been,

that would have been slightly worrying if it had gone that far. I don't know whether you did that. Well, the chapels did. The chapel brothers used actually to play whole test matches against each other. So you had to get out ten times. And when they were out, they would go back into the kitchen, walk into the utility room and then back out again. Throw the bat against the wall.

and then pick it up and come out as the number three. I love it. Which is, I mean, that's taking method actually too far. Mine was half baked in comparison with that. But, I mean, yeah, we would commentate on each and take turns in commentary and sort of like fight over who was going to commentate as you bold and batted. Sorry, would that be with your friends? Not with myself.

No. That would be more worrying. Well, no, I did do that. In front of a mirror, yes, yes. I'd go the whole hog. So who was the commentary voice in your head? What would it be? Would it be, and here's Jones, he smashes it through the covers.

I'm not going to do it for you, Dan. It would have been Beno, I think, because Beno was so his presence and his, you know, you've got to call it wisdom in retrospect. His outlook on the game, studied sort of circumspection on everything. It was so grown up, so sober, so unemotional. And you sort of aspire to that, even though what you were doing were so completely, driven by mad enthusiasm and fandom and kind of wanting to look like people but benno was kind of like a counterpoint to all that and he was kind of he was who we all commentated to that and i have to say

you know latterly you know in the field with you know as i played as as an adult everyone would be doing benno impersonation you know with each other as people over dramatized their fielding so what was what was the young toby james doing was he scoring the hundreds and taking five were you realistic about your role in the top levels of cricket? Absolutely not. No, no. I mean, I did play for the school team under 13 level, and then I played kind of a classic village cricket team in Charlbury, which is in the Cotswolds. And what I remember is a kind of idyllic scene where I went to school by train. I'd come back from train, literally go straight to the cricket club,

and play in the evenings there which was just fantastic and I did that, you know, early teens and stuff and then at school I'd play for second 11 really and of course I wanted to be a fast bowler because, you know, I could run like Michael Holding

I thought and then I went to the indoor cricket school at Lords and I think it's Don Ellis or whoever the guy was there put me right on a few things about my self-perception and said I think you need to bowl spin and so

I've tried to bowl spin I've tried to bowl spin ever since off spin off spin yes I mean that is the last refuge of the scounder yes yes yes off spin and a bit of batting as well I mean you must have you must have heard Richie Benno in toning you know as your hundred came up

of Andy Robertting fine with a tennis ball in the back garden not quite so much when you're out in the middle I think again it's interesting the idea of telling the I was going to slightly this thing

of telling the story of my innings before it had actually happened. So you go, you hit a good shot and then you make the mistake of going, today is going to be the day that I make my big innings. I can feel it. This is it.

This is what happens, you know. And I'm sort of haunted by a cover drop. The best shot, probably the only really good shot I've ever played in a competitive cricket match. And I was out next ball. But it was like this shot. And I thought,

if only I'd listen, to all that training rather than pretended to listen to it. And I think in a weird way now you sort of feel like at my age now I'd listen to the coaching more than I did then and you know in a way players sought themselves out when they're

younger to the people who actually do listen and work on their technique rather than pretend to. Well you know this ties in very nicely I think with one of the things you told me you did I did exact the same thing as a child. You developed an elaborate game

of dice cricket now this gets ever more embarrassing but yes well don't be embarrassed I had one I'd calculated you had to roll

eight sixes in order to get out handled the ball because that happens roughly once every 900,000 balls yeah yeah well the problem was the five

wasn't the problem was the five there were far too many five scored well I didn't score five and six one two three and four were dot balls and five and six something happened and then you rolled again to find out

if what had happened was actually nothing or something and on it went it was similarly it was similarly sort of baroque in its kind of rules I can't remember them all as well as you can down but they were elaborate elaborate rules I think the most pitiful thing I've probably ever done would be cheating

when a person I think John Edrich once scored 515 in a game of dice that I was playing and I managed to avoid, I'd drop the dice rather than get him out because it was such a remarkable innings. I did exactly the same.

The only time I didn't cheat was when I was batting. Yes. Occasionally, did you put yourself in a team? No, I wish I could say. Did you never do that? No, I never did that. I never did.

So all of your narratives were grounded in some kind of reality? Yes, it was usually England versus the rest of the world. Yeah, that was the one. Oh, wow. Because it was the era of those games being played. And that whole, and about the time of the Packer stuff, wasn't it, was beginning.

And that was all so glamorous the idea of world 11s and who would you put in your world 11. And it was such a great game to play with your friends about who was really good enough. You know, like we knew, you know. Yeah, but... You were selector, weren't you? You were chief selector, you were architect, you were God, basically, when you ran this game. And all he'd really done is listening to other people's opinion. and edit it out, you know.

That's right. And you said John Edrich there. So obviously, Surrey Man, you had to come to the Oval a bit, did you? I mean, because you're from Oxford, aren't you? Yeah, very early on I lived in Surrey. But I sort of say my home was near, as I say, Charbury Cricket Club was the first cricket, which is about 50 miles north of Oxford.

And that's where I grew up, really, and played all village cricket. And school, all the games were around there as well. But you see, you can always tell, when somebody says that they love test cricket, and then they say that I've cheated to make sure that John Edrich of all people has got 515. I mean that's

a timeless test required for that I think which rather it treats me so now we discovered earlier that you played cricket with our engineer Brian Mac that's right Brian Brian's a very able, stubborn batsman in my

mind's eye I don't know what he's like now because I haven't played with him for a long time but we used to travel with a began life as the radio journalist 11 and then became the Butler 11 named after our late friend Gareth Butler who was a news producer and a very useless left-arm spinner

but a fantastic captain who would arrange in the tradition of great sort of Sunday teams we'd have awards dinners averages bachelor of the year man of the year all of that and he was in the tradition of range the rain men and stuff like that.

He was just a fantastic organiser and Brian and I were both part of that team. Did you ever win any awards? I think I got a Man of the Year award which was very nice because I never, you know, I feel uncomfortable even talk about myself in the averages because I was in the averages but always in the lower half.

So you're listening to the actor Toby Jones here on A View from the Boundaries. I can see a band of probably cold stream yards or something playing away. the Scots Guard apparently this glorious setting here during the lunch break at the Oval with England 159 ahead

two wickets down You must be pleased In the balance, it's in the balance It's in the balance Because you've seen a lot of this series have you Well yeah It's been Well I mean the World Cup is sort of like a pallet cleanser

Wasn't it for this amazing Amazing kind of test series It's just Just gripping You know, I was telling Henry earlier on that one is constantly sort of immobilised in one's own house, you know, like when you should be getting on with stuff. You find yourself staring into, you know, open space,

unable to complete a task with a utensil in your hand, trying to finish your job, you know, and then three overs pass and you complete emotion or something like that. But it's kind of, it's been so gripping. How do you cope with, with, being away so much while it's going on. I mean, do you sort of hide away in covers, do you say to the director

and the producer, oh, I've got a bit of a hamstring today. Just need to go and hide somewhere. I mean, I've hidden in a cupboard from an ex-girlfriend in order to get the cricket score. How's that relationship going? It's over. Because, I mean, it must be pretty tricky. Often, you're abroad.

We've run through a whole load of films you're in, so you frequently find yourself, I imagine a man. You're totally, I mean, it's much easier now because of the internet, whatever. You try and befriend a member of the camera crew, whatever, who's into cricket, and they'll keep you informed of what's going on. And there are ways and means of getting hold of TMS wherever you are in the world. So I do that. And indeed, I've got friends all over the world who also listen to TMS, either online or, you know, on the radio.

But it must be, I mean, I would find it deeply frustrating. It's why I gave up the previous job. Really? Yeah, well, I got sick of inventing meetings that didn't exist and then running away to another part. Because I imagine that... I missed the television side of it. I mean, when the BBC lost that.

I used to really love that, having the radio on and watching the images, you know, as well. But you told me, I mean, radio is a very important part of... Because we've gone through a whole load of things that you've been in. Yeah. But actually, you've got a massive presence on the radio in drama as well, haven't you? Well, I grew up... Listening to the radio, music and documentary and drama,

and now, in addition with podcasts and everything, and radio sort of takes up most of my time in a way that television I find harder to sort of engage with for long periods of time. Maybe because I read a lot of drama, inevitably, one's watching dramas, trying to figure out how it works, what's working, why it got commissioned. What is the USP of it? How does it, how does it, why has it been chosen to be shown?

And often distracted by, I can go to a cinema and watch a movie, but often I find it quite hard to watch drama at home. Whereas radio, you know, I find totally absorbing both to do and to listen. I mean, some people might find that quite surprising because one of the things that, you know, strikes me about watching you act in a number of different performances. But I'm thinking I'm a particular fan of directorists and don't forget

you mean detectorists. Detectorists. It's a terrible word. They need to come with a better word. But it's a running gag in the show that it's the actual word of it. Yeah, yeah. And it's there's something about your performances which I sort of characterise as a kind of

glum serenity. Your face, the camera lights on this rather sort of glum serenity as I say. into which we read so much in silence. And then suddenly it dramatically explodes because an event has occurred. You know, an ex-girlfriend has arrived at the house and is destroying your life and taking you away from the thing you're trying to do. And the other parts, you know, a lot of both of those dramas,

I'm going to call them really, because they have comic moments in them, but they feel dramatic to me, is sort of gazing into your face to try to understand the inner workings of you. Yeah. And it's deeply challenging because we're not quite sure where you're at. And then you suddenly exposed. And yet you just said about radio. And yet...

Well, I mean, in terms of gazing at my face, I can only apologise. I wish that on anyone. But it's directors you have to really blame for that. I think that they think and believe, thankfully, that I always remember... It's an unlikely source of acting theory. but Hugh Grant saying in an interview that the miraculous thing about a camera when it's pointed at an actor

is if they've got their thoughts organised in the right sequence and if they've got what they're thinking there is something in the camera that allows the audits to read the mind of the actor and I remember thinking about that and going well I think that I have experienced that watching certain actors

and I aspire to that and so when I'm engaged in doing that. Directors often opt for a shot of watching me watching me do that. And I certainly for those shows you mentioned like detectors or don't forget the driver, the comedy is often about people you know, wrestling with

their interior doubts about emotions really. That's often the characters that I play in comedies. And hopefully there's something. something quite interesting watching someone coping with that and the audience trying to work out what they are thinking are you surprised by the success of them because when you look at when you've got the script for detectorist McKenzie wrote the script with you in mind yeah if you're looking for a sort of a sitcom or something you go straight to the gags I mean you know dad's army

formulae these lovely characters that they can just repeat the same thing every time but in that I mean looking at the script did could you see in your mind's eye that it was going to how it was going to look well i mean the thing about mackenzie he's a you know he's a unique um writer he and performer he came up to we we'd been in several films but never in the same scene we were you know he featured in about six or seven films before he actually met each other and then we played a double act in a in a second muppet movie and he said I mean, he's a very shy guy, genuinely shy, genuinely modest and humble, you know, and just great company. And he came over to you and he sort of mumbled that he'd written something with me in mind.

And wasn't that a nightmare when someone offered you a bit of writing? Because then you'd have to respond to whether, you know, if you didn't like it, what were you going to have to say to them? And if you didn't like it, he wouldn't take it personally. And I should just say. And if I didn't want it sent to me, then I won't send it. I said, because you just send me that. He said, well, I'll send you five pages of dialogue. And the email came through and I read this dialogue.

The thing that struck me most about it was, as you say, it wasn't gangs. There were laugh lines in it, but it was about two men searching for treasure in their lives as much as in, you know, metal detecting. And that, I had no desire to be in a kind of sitcom, but I had a real, desire to act this character because he was a dreamer, you know, and I think one of the successes of the show, I suppose, is that they've, they hit on genuine treasure in their life because they have time with each other as mates, they have time to have a drink to chat things over for banter, and these are the things that people dream of having time for, but increasingly people don't have time for it, and in a way they've already found their treasure, and I think

that people got that basic contract and yeah so that that didn't feel like I was doing a comedy it felt like we were creating two characters by the way the first series is going to be repeated of detectorists on BBC 4 tonight excellent yes this is fortuitous is it it's almost like a plug it's almost working out perfectly exactly am I pushing it too far in what you've the way you've described those two characters to link it to cricket in the sense that a lot of the time cricket fans especially test cricket fans come along to the cricket for five days to sort of, to create that

different pace from their life. So they're not. Totally. Yeah, I mean, that's what I mean when I first understood age 10 or 11 that this thing was going to go on for five days. That was almost the most exciting thing because I was used to 90-minute sport.

I wasn't really used to five-day sport. And there is a sense of being distracted and taken out of, a bit like when you go on a film set, you sort of disappear from every day. day 24 hour life and you're in a different time zone and test match cricket gives you that other opportunity where you're sort of time out from everyday life you know there's a sort of parallel reality going on with that both that and don't forget the driver there's a sort of englishness to it

they're quite deliberately set in places suffolk isn't there and then and bognar yeah and i don't ask you this last year you may don't forget the driver and it's if you haven't watched it I urge to go and see it because it's an extraordinary piece. I don't know whether it's a comedy or I do know it's a drama. And again, it's very challenging because your central character is filled with massive challenges as a lorry driver taking various people. Coach driver, yeah, yeah, yeah. Around a variety of different sort of English heritage locations, exactly.

But, you know, your private life is chaotic. Yes, absolutely. And there's a load of themes in there that are germane, to the modern English world. But it was set in glorious sunshine because it was last summer. Bogdan was like L.A. Exactly.

And there's this sort of bleakness to the narrative. But it's lit with this piercing, glorious blue, which is a contrast that... Were you happy with that contrast? Deep down, would you... I could have done with a few more sort of brooding grey clouds to symbolise the turmoil of your character, you know? Well, that's the thing.

I think in a way... That's what we expect from the British seaside is kind of rain and gloom. And in a weird way, I think you're right that we both sort of went and it's probably going to be that kind of weather and it'll be true. And that will probably be a good thing. And actually, I think it worked very well that it wasn't like that because it's almost less expected. It's more extraordinary and Bognar is an extraordinary place, whether you like it or whether you find it depressing. It's an extraordinary place and we tried to find what makes Bognar extraordinary like any place when you, you know, attend to it and its particular stresses

where it's where a town is happy or where a town is experiencing trouble, you find out something extraordinary about the people who are living there and it felt right in a way that we celebrated Bogner with the weather that we saw Bogner in its best possible light. And I'm sure that the show has triggered many people

to choose Bogner, is it? Go to holiday location. I myself have booked to go straight there. It's been sold out ever since. I was going to go in early January I thought that probably Well you can depend on the weather Now let's do a massive handbrake

turn here because these are These are things that I know you for And also TV But I've got to confess that Apart from the Hunger Games Which I'm a big fan of Australia I absolutely adore the Hunger Games Who doesn't like a dystopia

I love it I love it that Rollerball was one of my favourite films As a kid But you have appeared in some of the biggest film franchises in history iconic TV shows as well as we discussed but Harry Potter the Hunger Games

Marvel films when you're taking these parts are you thinking are you working on don't forget the driver at the same time and if so what kind of a strange mix and match world is that that you're in when you're surrounded by all the bells and whistles

the intimidation in a way it would seem to me of Hollywood stardom and also writing a sort of deeply affecting quiet sort of semi- me bucolic. Yeah, well, if you're lucky enough, you know, and I know this sounds like, you know, so disingenuous, but if you're lucky enough to work

as a British actor, you get access to these very different registers of work, you know. And some people don't want to work. And they start making movies, they go, I don't want to do TV, I don't want to do radio, I don't want to do stage. But I've always thought the great thrill of being an actor in this country is that those four

different media are open to you and the contrast is sort of the great thing about it that I could film a scene I mean Harry Potter is an interesting one because I always feel a bit odd taking any credit for playing Dobby because the thing is a special effect made by industrial light by very clever people at industrial light and magic who created this thing and I've voiced it to begin with. The second time in the seventh film when the character appears the special effects had developed so much

that they could trace my movement and I was able to inhabit the character much more so you physically acted. Yeah I physically sort of created the world and sort of as Dobby died I acted that scene out on the beach with Daniel

and then someone who was closer to the size of Dobby did that and they filmed that and then they did it with the model and so they had all these different sources of reference but I was much more in charge of if you like the acting of the part but when you're voicing character you do you have a slightly more ambiguous relationship because you sort of feel so much of the wit and life of those characters is really the people who've animated it you know and I've just provided the voice but it's great if you get to move like them is that because of is that because of

your initial training because you you know well I think any actor feels like that I think a sort of if you're voicing something you don't have quite the same relationship as if you're you there moving as well you played Captain Manoring yes Ed's Army now

that's a part that's been inhabited by somebody else so iconically so thinking exactly along those sort of terms what do you do there do you decide to create your Captain Manoring or are you massively influenced by the Captain Manoring that everybody understands as Captain Manoring

It's a very, very good question, Dan. When I was approached about doing the film, I said, that's a great idea. Good luck with that, and I hope you make lots of money, and I won't be doing that. And then I heard who was going to be in it, and I read the script by Hamish McColl, and it was something about it,

it just became irresistible until I had to actually do it, when it suddenly became incredibly resistable again. And I suppose, what I what I was because it was a feature length thing and I associate Dad's Army

with like a 28 minute storyline and he had something that was 90 minute long I suppose one well if it's interesting if you see Captain Manor he's a pompous character

knocked over he's sort of debunked his pomposity his arrogance his you know he's inflated but if you see that over half of an hour you can sort of accept it and you just go that's just funny he needs taking down a bit if you see it over 90 minutes

something more pathos starts to creep in and you create another dimension to the character which is like this guy you know he's taking he's a bit like the guy who shows up to run the cricket team on a Sunday team who can't play very well but he's sort of in charge and gets annoyed at people being late and annoyed at people not behaving well like the Richard Breyer's character something I think

in every decreasing circles. Exactly. Yeah, and there's a certain nobility to that character. They're not just an idiot. And I try to find something of that. In terms of acting it, you can't escape Arthur Lowe because he was a genius and his voice is somewhere entirely in that character.

But I suppose I tried to add to the canon of that character if that was possible. I mean, a lot of these roles that you're doing, I mean, I'm thinking now of Marvelous, for example. Because, you know, Captain Manor is sort of based on a real person, Arthur Lowe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And similarly, and Marvelous, when you play the Kit Man at Stowe. I mean, that is one of the most affecting and incredible stories.

But you played a character there where you're just upbeat all the time. I mean, you spend most of your acting world, it seems to me, being racked, wracked with horror. And expressing that with the tiniest movements. Whereas here was a much more open. You went it with BAFTA for Marvelous. It won a BAFTA. And it was an extraordinary piece, an extraordinary story. You spent some, did you spend some time with Neil?

I spent all the time he were filming because one of the unique things about that show was that he featured in it. In between scenes, I would discuss his character with him and the course of his life with him and then we would go into the drama again. And so, yeah, I got to know him incredibly well. and I remember he's such a fantastic guy, Neil Baldwood.

I remember him predicting the BAFTA on day two of filming. That is upbeat, isn't it? Extremely upbeat. Toby Jones, we're going to have to cut this shorter because the players are making their way out. The umpires are out. But before we do, could you be convinced to play Stephen Smith in the biopic? I just think that that is a part that is nailed on for you. Well, that's very close.

You say so, Dan. If you're genuine, I'm happy to take it on. There's a lot to work with. What a treat that was, hearing from Toby Jones, and lovely to hear his memories of playing and watching cricket. You'll have heard him mention his work in the Harry Potter series, so let's listen to a brief extract from his co-star Daniel Radcliffe, who chatted to Jonathan Agnew on his 18th birthday way back in 2016.

I love the fact that it's a very specific sport, it's not every, it's not like football where everybody seems to be into it, it's also the fact that there are so many rules and complications, and some of them aren't really necessary, but I just enjoy them. I enjoy the sort of pedantry of cricket as much as this play. Because your game is quidditch, isn't it? That seems quite complicated. It is, I don't know the rules fully. I was asked the other day on television, some technicality, and I didn't know, and I got laughed up by the presenter, it was horrible. Sort of football and hockey on broomstick, is it? It's a combination of that and basketball and lots of... Apparently in a sort of Harry Potter convention they had in America, they worked out a way of doing a sort of grounded version of Quidditch, which I would not pay to see. But I just don't know how it could possibly work.

How did you film it? Oh, I couldn't possibly reveal that information. No, it's very, very, very clever computer-generated stuff, and they put me on a poll. a broom. To be honest, it's incredibly painful to film. If anybody who's ever sat on a bicycle and had their sort of legs feet taken off the pedals and leant forward

it's quite... Very nasty. Yeah, it is quite, yes. And it probably happens quite often, does it? Not so much anymore, because he stopped writing it. I think I'm probably the only child in the whole of the UK who is pleased not to have quidditch in the Harry Potter books. You can hear all of that interview

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