Test Match Special - 5 Live Cricket: From Ashes to Ashes

Episode Date: January 17, 2022

Mark Chapman is joined by former England batter Michael Carberry and West Indian World Cup winner Carlos Brathwaite to look back at the final Test in Hobart and the 4-nil series defeat. The team dissect where it went so badly wrong for England this series. We also preview the women’s Ashes with England’s Kate Cross and look at the legacy of Virat Kohli following his departure as India Test captain.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge. Perfect for the ultimate defender. The high-performance Defender Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, welcome to Five Live Cricket, the men's Ashes

is over ending as you might expect with another England batting collapse they lost the final test in Hobart by 146 runs and therefore lost the series for nil former England batter Michael Carberry with us for the next hour so to West Indian T20 World Cup winner Carlos Brathwaite and we'll look at where it went so badly wrong for England this series we'll also preview the women's ashes with Kate Cross and we'll look at the legacy of Virak Coley following his departure as Indian test captain. Two perfect guests for five live cricket. Carlos, with a sort of being able to be impartial

and not just look at it straight from an English point of view. And Michael, given all of your experience, as a former England batter, as an experienced country cricketer and now a batting coach, we can delve into so many different layers here, can't we, of where the problems are within the game as a whole? yeah um i think i've had this discussion funny enough with quite a few people obviously in light of what's happened and i think the problem you've got the problem's in a couple of parts you've got what i call

a top-down view and then you've got the ground-up view and let me start with the top-down obviously 2015 we didn't have a great one-day set up we were dumped out of the 2015 world cup and um you know white ball cricket in england was in a bad place and obviously Since that time, there's been a lot of investment from the ECB. Andrew Strauss, obviously, he came in and made it almost his mandate to, you know, he said, right, we want to win the next Men's World Cup in 2019. And it was an incredible journey. Obviously, we all tuned in and watched, you know, the boys perform as well as they did over many years.

And unfortunately, there was always going to be something that suffered in that situation. and it was the Red Bull game. I mean, I was probably coming to the back end of my career then and you'd certainly notice that the drop-off in standard in terms of Red Bull, the pitches, you know, you're opening back as I was, you're trying to make your way, trying to score some runs and you're seeing the scores coming down, more people getting bowled out under 100 and scores like that.

And it became difficult, I'll be honest. So I can simplify with some of the batters at times. And then you've got to sort of look at it from the ground up view, which is where I'm at now. We've, you know, working with kids day to day, fixing some very, very broken techniques. I think there's, first of all, there's a lot of poor structural coaching, for one.

Certainly at the youth level, the grassroots level, where kids, you don't have that old coach that is really on your case teaching you the basic fundamentals, right? How to grit the bat properly, how to stand properly, because you get your head in the right position, all these things as batsmen

because you're primarily talking about batting. You know, it's more about enjoyment, you know, go out and whack it and this kind of stuff. And actually, most kids' introduction into cricket now is through the white ball game. So they're watching guys like Carlos, like J. Russ, like Chris Gale and others,

part the ball, literally every ball out of the park, which is great. You know, it's fantastic, it's great to get a new audience in. But I think coaches have to also make kids understand that guys like Carlos, like Chris Gale, didn't start that way. Yeah. You know, they still have a very good, basic understanding.

standing or grasp of the concepts of batting because there's a massive difference between hitting and batting and and that's a really important point carlos isn't it you i mean you don't you don't just grow up turn into the big man that you are and then walk out and be able to whack it you you have you have to you have to have a technique chaper as if i be honest that on the 15 level it batted all 50 overs for 19 hit not out. So that is just a glimpse into obviously not being the big man from birth and just smacking it. And like what Karb said it at the end, because

hitting has become another thing to add on to your game. But without the right foundation, you can't just be a hitter. And I have found it myself as well. I would have been out of the test team and out of red ball cricket for a while. And your batting can suffer. You're on the road, especially in the position that I bat, six, seven, eight. You can I'm into back four or five overs. You have two or three slogs and you're gone.

And then four games later, you realize it just go out for single digits. And you don't have much time to catch form and build form and gain momentum. So Red Ball is very important. I've actually had a conversation with a young West Indies player who asks my opinion on whether he should sacrifice a franchise contract to play in our first class tournament. And I would never be one to conk pocket. So I told him, look, if the money is going to be like, changing for you, then play your franchise cricket.

But personally, I think if you sacrifice money and franchise cricket at this age and it gives you a opportunity to build a solid platform in first class cricket, you can double, triple, quadruple that money over a period of time. And the allure franchise cricket is one that we also have to understand, appreciate and accept. But to get to that level, you need to have a solid foundation. On the, it's really interesting on the solid foundation. And Steve James is going to join us shortly, both of you,

who wrote a really, really good article in the Times thing. It may have been about three weeks ago on the coaching of batting and particularly youngsters as well. When you talk about the kids that you're coaching, Michael, and by the time they're coming to you, there are things that are flawed in them that should have been resolved when they're much younger. How old are they when you're coaching them?

And at what age should things be resolved? Well, I mean, predominantly the age group I'm working with now is sort of around 15, 16 and a little bit older. So I think for me, I mean, okay, at that age now, you're kind of learning, I suppose, now how to play, how to put together an innings, which can take a number of years. I mean, I would say when did I feel I had a great grasp of how to be a consistent run scorer at first class level,

I would say was probably from mid-20s onwards. So that's fine, that's learning the game, right? That's a different component. What I'm talking about now is what I'm seeing now is batting setups, right? So your starting point being in the correct place, right? And like Carlos rightly said, you need certain fundamentals. I still believe, and maybe this is what's changed in the way batting's been coached, is that if you talk to youngsters in particular about, you know, practicing defence,

it's almost seen now as a bit of a dirty word. And it's not because I'm telling players to be defensive players. defense is there to keep you at the wicket long enough to make runs if you're going to be a top order batsman worth your soul because the higher level you go as me and Carlos both know the less bad balls you get right so you need that basic notion of batting so defense is something that is not fashionable amongst the young generation right it's not fashionable it's laborious it's not exciting and we live in this sugar rush generation of what I call sugar rush entertainment, right? Everyone wants to be entertained, right? Which, you know, I would say

it has its place, but cricket is one of the few sports, no matter, and Carlos can probably tell you more than me, because he's probably played more T20 than me, but even in a T20, and I've said this to young players, you have more time than you think, right? And still through the crickets are the two things you need,

is patience and time right and this young so it's a little you can see what I'm talking about is also a little bit of a societal problem

right where life is and feels like it's always in fast forward right kids they are not doing what I used to do as a kid and it's due to school

and you know have people you know not being able to get to watch test match cricket but I would watch the innings you know I'd watch how people go about their work

you know it's not only wrong Savivian Riches was as people know was my ultimate cricket hero but you look at and Savivian was probably ahead of his time

in terms of you know that real attacking batsman who you know he would he would have easily falling into today's

line of short form cricket but he still had a very good basic grasp of batting batsmanship that's what is for me is what's dying

at the moment Michael's point there, Carlos, about you still have a lot of time, even in short form cricket, you still have a lot of time. And I have watched a lot of age group cricket over the years, you know, at club level, but also at county age group level as well. And there does, I have to say, you know, there does feel like there is this pressure, whether it's from parents or maybe even from some coaches, I don't know, that, you know, the kids go out to bat and, God, you've got to get on with it. You've got to be aggressive, you know, you've got to make the runs without realizing that even, even 20 overs can be quite a long time, particularly in junior cricket, 50 overs, a really long time.

You don't have to just go out and whack it from the moment you arrive at the crease. if we're talking about getting kids to have the right technique. Yeah, I agree. And when you look at the Kayne Williamson, the Kayne Williamson of the world, they're at Coley, Steve Smith. Jeroot had an amazing 2016 World Cup batting at three for England. David Milan was number one batsman in the world

in T20 and the last year for a while, not sure if he still is. But you're talking about guys who have a good set up, Steve Smith. And I think it's only a matter of time before, Manus Labu Sheen plays T20 cricket as well. You're talking about quality technical players who can turn it on a drop of a hat. And I was forced to play with Kane Williamson.

And in that IPL tournament, he got the most rounds of thing. And there were about four or five times they got to 50. And it was off 35 balls. And I could probably remember one shot that he played. But he's able to rotate strike. He's able to defend the good balls. when he gets through a period of one, two overs that the bowlers are on top, he's able to ride that out successfully, come out the other end,

and then add that hitting ability on top of it. Now, you wouldn't expect Kane Williamson to do the job that Drey Ross would do or Chris would do, but there is a place in the game for Kane Williamson, for Steve Smith. There's also a place in the game for Dreherst, for Chris Gale. And I think at this point in time, as Carbs rightly said, to play like Craig Brathwick, to play like Rory Burns, to play like Dom Sibley,

is seen as a last resort. No one enjoys spending time at the wicket anymore. No one enjoys knocking the shine off the new ball just by being there. And I think Sir Alistair Cook was probably the last of a dying breed when he was someone that had back all day not be the greatest looking player

but you appreciated what he did you appreciated the balls that he left he appreciated him tucking the balls away and I tell you what as well the best players albeit they may not score as quickly you know that there's an area

you cannot bowl at them and I find that some players are caught in between you're not good enough defensively they're not good enough hitters and then you bowl bad balls at them and you don't put them away

now if you're good defensively you have an area that you know that is where he defend that's how I defend that's what I leave anything that's not in that area if I'm a man that loves to cut and pull if you drop short of what's my defensive

or a leaving area I'll cut you punch you pull you if I'm a drive of the ball and you come too full I'll drive you look at Steve Smith look at Labusha and leave the ball very well but you come too full and they pick you off just as easily as well just on the coaching as well

Michael when you when you get to the very top you know when you are with England are you still, do you still at times need the basic coaching? I hope that isn't a stupid question, but you know, if something's just gone a bit awry and you need to strip back at all, do you still need the basic coaching? Absolutely. Because, you know, over the course of a long career, and I was fortunate I had, you know, 18 years at the top, things creep in, you know,

through fatigue, through, you know, loss of movement, you know, all these things. And I think you always need that someone that coach you're close to someone like Carlos mentioned Sir Alice de Cook he had Graham Gooch through a lot of his career as his mentor

and I'm sure Gucci was that guy who kept an eye on Alistair even through the bad period to remind him of what he did well so I think yeah I mean for me it was Alan Butcher father of Mark who was almost like

that surrogate figure in my early career and helped me understand and one, my technique to how to score rounds at first class level. Now, getting back to the coaching, as I said before, I think those guys, those coaches I talk about, sadly are probably either no longer with us or retired. What I'm seeing now is, and coaches are in a little bit of a conundrum here now

where you get in a situation where now you have to appease a lot of parents to, you know, I've got parents coming to me saying, oh, my little Johnny wants to learn the reverse sweep or the scoop, but he hasn't scored a run in five weeks. And I'm like, well, surely in a situation, ma'am, sir, it's more important that he learns to understand the fundamentals of batting to allow him to stay at the wicket longer, like Carlos says, you know, spending that time. Even in T20, Carlos can tell me himself, we both made Heaps of runs at T20 level. How many of your best innings have come from a slow stop

when the crowd are going, oh, come on, get on with it, you know. But suddenly, there's one over. You fancy someone, you go, boom. Michael, look at the news that Josh Butler played in the recent World Cup when he, I mean, in the semi-final, I think he was, he was, he was, I mean, he wasn't even run a ball at one stage, was he? Because he had to properly, properly dig in to get himself through the first bit. Well, Carlos

played with arguably the best. I mean, you look at early Chris Gale, where he would go nuts on everybody, towards the back end of Chris's career, and I've watched Chris at close legs. Chris used to pick his fights towards the end of his career. He'd pick his fights, right?

And I've seen it. I've been on the receiving end. Watching the universe boss at close quarters, where he would certainly pick bowlers. I remember my cousin Fidel Edwards roughing him up early doors

and he sat in he sat in but then we brought on our left arm spinner game over right that's that's that's what I'm talking about

it's that no it's that mouse that you're trying to now get across to this slightly younger generation now that it's not about just parking trying to park the ball

into the stands from ball one right yes there's there's times you need to do it. You need, you know, you're in a run chase. You've got to do all that. I get that. But that's, that's not the fundamentals of cricket. It's the same on the bowling front. I say, I've said, I've said to my kids on Saturday. I said, what makes James Anderson a good

bowler? And it's, oh, he can swing it both ways. You can do his wobble balls. I said, no. I said, what makes, I'll ask you again, what makes him a good bowler? And they were all lost. The room was silent. I said, because he does anything better than most other bowlers. He bowls the same area ball after ball. But as you mentioned Chris Gale and his ability to seal a bowler,

we constantly forget that Chris Gale as a test batsman, has a triple hundred and a very illustrious test career. So we remember the last three, four, five years, Chris Gale that hit it to all parts. But before that, Chris Gale

spin, pace, whatever, he dealt with it. And you're talking about after of Gordon Greenwich and Desma Haynes, probably even challenging them to be one of the better tests, openers that West Indies would have ever had. So then again,

we talk about that foundation. Chris definitely had it. And even for some more like myself, obviously, I would have rose the prominence with the four, sixes or whatever, but that was the culmination of a solid year where he had a good run in first class cricket.

I played 50 over cricket with the senior team. and test cricket with the senior team got a couple of 50s in Australia and I felt as though part of my struggles after the World Cup was partly due to me not playing any red ball cricket. My last red ball game was a test match,

my last test match. So I've always been trying to play catch-up in 2020 cricket with not a lot of balls behind me, not a lot of rhythm, and then you expect to go and whack the first ball your face for six and get 50 or 15 balls. It's a very good point you may call because I've said this to kids, right?

that you don't realize the pressure of being a franchise player, right, and almost giving up Red Bull cricket because, you know, I get it. Look, you know, someone once said to me, you know, Red Bull pays the mortgage, White Ball pays off the mortgage. I get that, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I totally understand. But I also know how hard it must be as a batsman to get rhythm.

We all know it's a rhythm game. Once you're batting consistently and spending time, that word again, time, you're spending time in the middle consistently, yeah. I mean, I was in the car listening to it. I said something's going to happen here, right? And, you know, four balls later, the game was finished. You know, remember the name. We all remember that, we all remember that knock, you know, but you're right.

You know, that's why I appreciate, look, the different skill levels of what you guys do at the franchise level. But I'm Spain to a generation now that's coming through that you need to do the 1% things before you get to that link. Michael Carberry and Carlos Brathaway with us on Five Live Cricket, former England batsman Steve James, who writes for The Times, joins us now as well.

Evening is Steve? Evening, everyone. The article you wrote before Christmas on coaching and batting was fantastic, Steve. Honestly, it was so good because it highlighted you know, as Michael's been mentioning as well, you know, there are so many subtleties

to being an international batter, and those subtleties often with, you know, in the modern era, are forgotten. Yeah, thanks. I mean, it was slightly angry article. And maybe

ruffled a few feathers. Yeah, I mean, obviously I do a lot of junior coaching these days, sort of a mom of school and in the Glorgan Academy and in the pathway in Wales. Yeah, and just sort of spurred on by another bad England batting performance. I'm probably seeing those guys batting on one leg in the nets before the Melbourne test.

Yeah, I mean, that was the point that sort of kicked off on about there being too much overcomplication, I think, in coaching in general. And I was listening to Michael earlier, just nodded my head when he was talking about the lack of sort of basics and fundamental. is being coached at junior levels. That's something I've seen over the last few years, and I think that's something that's been creeping in over a number of years, you know,

and I think that's why we're seeing what we're seeing now at the top level. So is there a, I don't know whether quest is the right word, but at all levels for it to be gimmicky and exciting, whereas actually at times it has to be really quite technical and dull. give an example, Steve. When I used to do the on-pitched stuff during the one-dayers for England, right? We went through two or three years of doing coaching masterclasses out on the field during the interval for the fans, right?

Peter Moore's did one where he got two or three lads out of the crowd who I don't think at the time we realized for worse for wear and put them through a fielding drill, which scared the life out to me at the time, really, because I don't think they were probably seeing three balls coming towards them rather than one for the fielding. But the crowd were entertained. Headingly, Duncan Fletcher did one with me, and he did 20 minutes on back grip, right? Which was not very entertaining for the Western Terrace, but was fascinating and highlight, but just highlighted to me that the technicalities, the complexities, and actually how, I don't know, if you sat with an 11-year-old or even maybe if you sat with a 21-year-old who was struggling a bit with their game, and did a whole session on bat grip, would they buy into it? Yeah, I'm not sure.

I'm obviously a disciple of Duncan Fletcher. I haven't played under at Glamorgan, and I haven't written a couple of books with him. And I probably learned more from him than anybody else about the techniques of batting. I mean, to talk to him about batting is a real education. I actually used to travel in the car with him to Glamorgan Games. I just learned so much from him, you know.

yeah there's a lot of glitz and glamour and there's a lot of big money in the in the t20 stuff these days but as michael was saying earlier i think you've got to get the fundamentals right first and then and Carlos mentioned it as well you know how he maybe wasn't such a big hitter when he was younger i mean my view is that the the best players are genuinely best players and if you've got some solid fundamentals and a good technique then you can pick up a lot of this other other stuff quite easily the the power hitting and the sweeps and the reverse sweeps the Better players will pick that up quite easily, but I just don't think we're nailing down the basics at a young enough age. One of my big theories, Mark, is that the better coaches should be coaching lower down the system rather than higher up. And the problem is at the moment we've got a system where you only really earn a lot of money coaching if you get right to the top, whereas I think the most important work is done a lot lower down the system. But a lot of coaches don't want to work there because there's not much money. they want to get to the top where I think just at the top you're more fine-tuning

than radically changing techniques you know we I've talked a lot about technique during this ashes but the bottom line is you can't change a technique radically during a during a test series it's more sort of fine-tuning and more about sort of you know mental stuff and

tactical stuff really Michael you were nodding yeah because you know me and JMO we came from that same score. I mean, I was probably a little bit after Jamo, but, you know, I think back to my own pathway as a youth player, you know, something like Graham Clinton, former Surrey Batson, you know, used to have a standing against the wall, all 20 of us, and just picking your bat up for half an hour, picking it up straight. And again, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't exciting, but it was

relevant, you know, because you were able to understand even, so this is why I had the, you know, a bit of a hang-up when people say, yeah, but you know, you've got to let kids just whack. No, you've got to give kids a good starting position. If the starting position is bad, it's only going to get worse, right? If I have no problem kids going out playing their shot, I encourage it. I said, look, if I throw you a half-volley or a short ball, I want you to put it away, all right? The other thing I'll throw in the mix, guys, I mean, you tell me what you think as well. But I think also some really bad coaching aids as well have led to some.

some of the faults I've seen, even this, you know, with these batting performances in the ashes. You know, I think these dog sticks, I think they have a lot of responsibility for some poor techniques as well. I think back to, I can't remember even when they came in 2013, something like that, where we used to throw, we used to buddy up and throw to one another. You know, you throw seam up, throw some new ball stuff and try and, you know, work around the front pad, throwing the bumper and your eye line stayed at a normal level right you're watching the bowler's hand and then these dog sticks came in now i can imagine a coach say carlos his size carlos what you six foot five right you put a dog stick in carlos his hand which is about that size i'm not you know as a little

kid now i've gone from looking at what we call that you know normal eye line level to suddenly i'm here and even as a pro I don't care how good you think you are you see someone coming from that height you're going to be wary of that bounce so I said to my mum earlier I said I'd be interested if someone had a camera on me

in the last three years of my career how much different it was versus my best years where we didn't have the dog stick and I could see for myself how far forward I used to get by the time I finished compared to that that point in my career because, you know, I looked at this young

Hamid, right? And I'm, the problem is so obvious. This is why when I heard noises that, you know, they've got them batting on one leg and I'm like, how is that the problem? Yeah. I'm watching Hamid go back to everything and the problem are these huge trigger movements. Everything, battings become very ugly to look at now. You know, I think, you know, I grew up in that here I say Viv, Gower, Graeme Thorpe, Mark Butcher, Ricky Ponting, Brian Lara. You know, what was the common theme for all those players? They had flow to their back.

Beautiful. Beautiful to watch. Even Virat Kohli, who we were going to talk about later on, you know, early Virap, there was a flow to his game, right? Lovely pickup, glides into the ball. Now what you're seeing is these wide starties, huge back foot movements. And when you move that far back, invariably, your head goes back with you. Your head's the heaviest part of your body.

There's no way you can transfer your weight forward. And this happened to this poor lad every single test match. He got out virtually the same way, right? And you've got how many batting coaches on that trip? You'd mean to tell me no one can go to Hamid and say to him, look, son, if it's about the pace you're worried about, get inside the box, as I did to Mitch. Johnson, get inside the crease. You give yourself an extra half a yard. But get your weight coming forward.

Get your head coming forward to the pitched up delivery. You can't go back to every ball. Josh Butler, same thing. Got massive movements back and can't get their weight forward. And Steve, you wrote the same thing. Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, the point carbs made about the dog stick, that was something I mentioned in the article, and that is quite a big gripe of mind. players don't get forward when they're using that dog stick,

especially younger players. The height from which is thrown is just too high. So, yeah, totally agree there, Cubs. And the thing with Amid, I'd say, is so that big back movement, he wasn't doing that last summer. So he's decided to do that for this series, which is quite a big change, isn't it? You know that, Cubs, to make that change.

And as you say, his weight was never forward, and he basically wasn't moving after that trigger movement, and his hands were just being thrown out. It's all hands of him. I'll tell you what I've mentioned here as well is Ben Stokes so Stokes was brilliant obviously in 2019 the World Cup and that innings aheadingly but since then he's introduced this big back and across movement

I think he thinks that maybe he can play the ball later but I don't think it's improved his game I'll be interested to know whether that's come from him or whether that's come from the coaches but again that's quite a big change to make especially when you've been so successful I know players we're always looking to get better and better. But to make such a big fundamental change, I was quite surprised by that.

And, you know, he might look back now and think, well, actually has that benefit in my game. Yeah, he was obviously rusty in this series and the question marks whether he should have actually started the series and he probably shouldn't have played on that last test either, should he? But I think he really struggled to find the balance between defence and attack in this series. Steve, thank you very much for coming on.

Steve James, former England batter, now writer for The Times with us on Five Live cricket. Let's talk about the county game. Before we hear from Carlos and Michael, this is what Chris Silverwood had to say about that and also his own position. Well, from my personal point, yes, I definitely have a young to carry on. As I've just said, it's, you know what I mean,

yes, I'm honoured to be the head coach of England. But I'm like you guys as well. I'm an England cricket fan as well, you know what I mean? I'm desperate to see England do well and I'm desperate to influence what we can influence to make us better and keep us moving forward and, you know what I mean, to help make those changes that we'll give these guys a platform

to actually learn the trade on, to become better at building and in, you know what I mean, at creating partnerships. And we need a platform for them to do that so we can learn the trade. And I think that's one of the changes that we need to sit down and talk about how do we get that into county cricket

to make sure that actually we're giving them an opportunity because at the moment you can question whether or not these guys have an opportunity within a domestic game to actually learn the trade, to learn the skills that they need to compete at this level. But that's the question we've been asking for years. Chris, you can go back four years ago, four years before that,

and just keep going through Ash's visits here. We need to do this and nothing ever happens. What can you do? What influence can you have to make something change? Well, I mean, it has to change you, right? Because what I would hate to see is that in four years' time, whether it's me or someone else, sat in these shoes, having the same conversations again

because it means we've failed in that respect we need to somehow find a way of game of championship running throughout the year so you know I mean back when I was sort of coming through we used to play the championship all the way through the year and you would get where up front is a little bit sported but during the middle of the summer the wicket's flattened out

the batsman came into the run the spinners came into the run that's when the spinners bob the majority of the overs and learnt the skills that they need but equally as a fast bowler you needed a little bit of extra pay bit of bounce or better generate movement to actually compete when the wickets are there as well

because it's slightly more in the batsman's favour and it allows them to learn how to as I said compile beginnings it teaches them or gives them an opportunity to learn how to get greedy and push on and get big scores but equally create those partnerships and get used to scoring 400, team 450 on the board and I think that's what we need

and somehow we have to make it happen and I think you know what I mean by me speaking out about it by talking to obviously Ash and Tom and people like that, hopefully we can get us all around the table and make this happen, find a way and find a plan of fitting this into the schedule and giving these guys the opportunity. Encouraging for me is the fact that it's actually been acknowledged

that this needs to happen now. So I think we actually have moved forward rather than just talking about, but what I'd like to see now is some action. Carlos, you will have heard even from afar discussions about the structure of the county championship when it's played. I mean, this is nothing new and just because, I mean, would you think even just because he's talking about it now that there's any, that any action will be taken now compared to,

I don't know, where we probably had this discussion four years ago or four years ago before that? I think it's a bit rich for everyone to just blame the country structure. I come from the Caribbean where we've gone to this fancy franchise. first-class structure. Some franchises don't even have a physio. And I was fortunate enough to be representing watch in the summer.

And the staff that you have access to is amazing. Like, you have everything you want. Pitches are always prepared, albeit if you have obviously in climate weather or whatever. You have Merlins. There's one that you take the Merlins, you spin one that you don't need, you don't need a cricket ball

the baller machine boy can use cricket ball they've got a soft map that replicates like a slow wicket you have the fast bowling machine that you don't need with the no need a coach with the electric arm

so I think with all these facilities and with everything you have available I don't I can't sit here and say that it's not the country structure because I've not been a part of the four-day set up I've not had a season

with a country very where you go through the ramifications, the images of your body to try to get through a season. So I would not be best placed. But what I can say is looking from afar, if these players had to go through, what West Indian players have to go through, half of them wouldn't be professional cricketers then.

Because I can sit here and safely say that if I look at the pathway from under 19 English cricketer to professional cricket to international cricket, it is 10,000 times easier than the pathway from a West Indian on the 19 cricketer to professional cricket to international cricket. Simple things like staff, like facilities, we'll go to some grounds and the pitches aren't prepared.

You've got a 9 to 12 slot and the pitches aren't prepared are ready to hand over till 10.30. So you actually really and truly have to get through 10 pairs in an hour and a half. Sometimes you don't got water, you don't have electrolytes. So when people say, oh, the country game needs revamping and this and that, I think as much as there may be problems in the country game, as Chris Silverwood and as Joe Rout said, and I must take their word for it, and it'd be interesting to hear Karb's idea of it having played for so long. But with everything available at your fingertips, I think the players need to take more ownership on themselves to get better, to be able to compete, and to be able to do the. be things that are necessary to be successful at international level.

It's an interesting perspective that, Michael. Yeah, I agree. So, again, I think there's a couple of parts to the solution. I think Chris Silverwood is, and I feel sorry for him to some degree because he inherited this team, right? So I like Spooners. He's a great guy. You know, I feel sorry for what's happening because, you know,

no one wants to see England get beaten that way. But there's a couple of parts I want to add in as well, and I'll totally agree with Carlos as well on some of the points he's made as well. I think that word player ownership, right? Now, I know being a long-term county pro myself, that, you don't, unfortunately, get to face Mitchell Stark, Cummings, Hazelwood every week because our, I suppose, our conditions don't allow for it, right? We play, say, the first three months on, you know, soft green pitches that are slow, whatever.

Then, yeah, they may flatten out if we get some good weather. And then, you know, back end of the season, it's gone back to soft green pitches. And I think in that situation, as I had to, I recognised that and realized that, you know, I never trained for first. class cricket. So my mindset was always slightly different to most of my peers, is that I wasn't going on bowling machines at 70 mile an hour

with no threat of being hurt or embarrassed or anything like that. I would go. Jimmy Adams is the West Indian legend. It's someone I play against when I was very young in league cricket. And you remember giving me one bit of advice when I was about 16. He said once, twice a week, go and find some pace.

Right. And I would do close-range stuff. because it was always in preparation for hopefully one day I'd get the opportunity to face Mitchell Johnson, Dale Stain, whoever it might be. So I'm as ready as I can be. So I think part of the problem is, like Carlos rightly said, are these players going off themselves and finding those challenges in practice, right? Because knowing that week to week in county cricket, the majority of the time is what you're going to face, It's people who bowl under 70 mile an hour, keeper up, all these things. But I come back to my point, so that's one part of the problem. I come back to my point, which is slightly below what Chris Silver would is saying

in terms of, you know, batters being able to learn into build innings in championship cricket. For me, mate, that's got to be done when you're younger. You got, you've got to be taught that when you're coming up into junior level, right? that you get, as I say, from a young kid, you get the fundamentals in place. This is how you stand. This is how you grit the bat. Right.

As you start to get, to say, 17, 18, 19, as I say, the conversations now get more away from technical, and you start to be taught the game, right? Like, as, you know, they say, you used to teach the game at the bar, so to speak, you know, get your runs in tens, you know, breakdown sessions, breaks in play, you know, get yourself in.

Don't, you know, that's what you're starting to teach, so that when they break in first class structure, they already have a notion of how to build innings. If you're already a pro and you have no idea how to build an innings, that I think that's a tough learning curve. I'll be honest with you, because county cricket, you know, I know Carlos hasn't played first class, but I can tell you guys, it's relentless, right?

playing, and games come thick and fast, right? You finish one four-day game, you're straight into another four-day game. You're straight into another, it's relentless. And if you're out of touch or you don't have those basic building blocks in place, it's a very tough place to learn now how to bat. It could take you years, it could set you back years, right? This is why I say, it's, I think, and J-Mo made a great point about, It's what you do at the junior level, right?

So when you break in to the first class structure, you should already have a basic notion of batsmanship. Now you can add to the melting pot. You can do what Carlos has done. You can add that power. You can add that power hitting for the format you're playing. But you can easily click back into gear and know that, right, this is the process of batting.

That's what's gone out of the game now. It's all, I must get on with it. I've had kids not selected because they're not 360 players, yet they've peeled off 300s. You know, that's crazy to tell a 14, 15 year old that you're not playing because you don't hit enough boundaries. This is what's going on in the game right now at the junior level. So you can see that what this is, this Ash's defeat is the resultant of bad structure. So with all due stretch, Chris Silverwood, you know, rubbishing the cat.

Look, no system is great. And we can only work with the conditions we have. We live for eight months of the year in a cold, wet country, right? Standard. So we can't suddenly start putting pace and bounce in the wickets. They've never been quick wickets. But what we can do with our young generation coming through is stop the overthinking, stop with all the fancy,

coaching aids and tools and get back to good old-fashioned basics. It's fascinating stuff. Michael Carberry and Carlos Brathaway with us on Five Live cricket. Men's Ashes is over. The Women's Ashes begins when Australia take, when England take on Australia and Adelaide in the first T20 of their mixed format series, England looking to regain the ashes for the first time.

This is 2014. Let's talk to England bowler. Kate Cross with us live from Adelaide. Morning afternoon. How are you? Good morning everyone I'm good thanks how are you I'm good thanks

preparation has been well I think Heather Knight at one point described it as laughable at times didn't she yeah we've had a bit of a tough phase coming into it to be honest I think you know your COVID protocols that are coming into the game now

that were new two years ago not to new anymore kind of restricted what we were able to do before we flew over here so we all had two weeks on our own if you lived with a partner They were feeding the bowling machines and strapping the pads on and facing you and stuff. But otherwise, it's been not ideal, but it is what it is and we're going to have to crack on with it.

And hopefully when that first game comes on Thursday, give it our best go. So given how huge the debate was around the men's preparation for their ashes and how undercooked they were, is there a sense of, I mean, you're going to be confident, obviously, all of you in your own abilities, but is there a sense of trepidation on the preparation side? Not necessarily. I think we're all aware, obviously, if you were designing your preparation for a series like an ashes,

which is just as important to us as it is to the guys, you know, it wouldn't be what we've had for the last three weeks. But I think if COVID's taught me anything in the last two years, it's how adaptable we are as players and as a team. And, you know, we've gone through some pretty tough phases. And this is no difference. So I think it'll hopefully in a way

kind of drive us on a little bit more and switch us on more when that first game comes around because we've not had as much game time as we would have liked. Our last competitive fixture was September and we had a training camp over a man in December which got us outside on feet on turf.

But otherwise, like I said, it's not been ideal. So I think it's now going to be more the mental side of, you know, you don't become a bad cricketer in two months. So it's going to be more the mental side of how we switch on as a team and get ourselves up to this series, which is going to be tough.

It always is when you come over to Australia. And getting used to competition again, isn't it? That's that on the mental side. That's what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think almost the ashes does that for you. You know, it's not something that, you know, it's not a wet, gloomy Saturday in England where you're turning up

and trying to drag the covers off. It's, you know, we're getting to play at the Adelaide Oval, which our schedule changed last minute. it. The T20s, we're supposed to be starting with the test match on the 26th, but the T20s been brought forward because we found out we've got to do some hard quarantine when we travel over to the World Cup when we go to New Zealand after the Ashes. So there's been a lot up in the air and in a way we've almost not had to think about cricket yet, which is quite novel for us as a team. But like I said, I think, you know, the Ashes

is one of those series that you're desperate to play in. It's the pinnacle of our sport as well. So we're, you know, we're just keen to get going now and we're kind of chomper. at the bit for Thursday. And the switch of the formats, as in the order of the format, how much of a difference do you think that will make? Interesting, actually. Personally, I think T20 is probably the best format to start with.

For a few reasons, just bowling work loads for the bowlers, building up to a test match is always going to be bigger because we don't play that format often, so we have to really focus on making sure we've got overs in our legs when we're prepping for that. So I guess with T20, it's four overs. You know, you don't have to worry about that side of it.

But I think T20 could be anyone's game, and it's almost the best format to start with because it gives people the freedom to go out and play the shots and everything that you were just, the opposite of what you were just discussing then about the test cricket. I think in a way, yeah, you get to play 360 in this one. So I think it'll just be good for everyone to get out there and actually play some cricket.

And, you know, we've got a really big three months of cricket, ahead of us it's we've never had two kind of global events like this back to back so there's a lot of cricket for us to get our teeth stuck into and hopefully if we can have a bit of success you know it's kind of career defining moments for us it's a ridiculous year isn't it i mean in a good way but it is a ridiculous year throwing the commonwealths as well kate yeah it's just something that we've i've kind of been advocating for this for so long now but we just needed to play more cricket and I think the summer that we've just had over in England, you know, at the 100, the Rachel Hayo Flint and the Charlotte Edwards Cup,

it just gave us so much more opportunity to get out of the nets and get onto the pitch and learn in the middle, which I think is when cricketers do all, well, most of their learning. So the fact that we're getting to do that through the winter and then go into another incredible summer, which again, the Commonwealth, it'll just, hopefully it'll just be another event that kind of turns people's heads towards cricket, which the 100 did. We saw that in the summer,

but hopefully it'll just get, you know, more bums on seats and more young girls and boys interested in our game because hopefully it might open that audience up, you know, to a wider group. I'm sure we'll talk more over the course of this series, but just let you know it is wet and windy and plenty of winter training over here. What a shame.

Enjoy the Adelaide Oval, Kate, talk soon. Good luck. Thanks very much, guys. Thank you. See you soon. Kate Cross. Yeah, good luck. Every ball of the Ashes live on 5 Live Sports Extra and BBC Sound starting at ATM on Thursday.

Does that make sense to you, Carlos? Actually, maybe it is better this way to start with the T20s rather than starting with the test match. Yeah, that was actually a very good point, especially with getting miles and legs. Fast bowlers is a fine line between being overcooked

and bowling too much and also bowling too little. And you can find that if you're just warming up, where you're just practicing, and you're going through, let's say, balling a five over or a six over spell. And the paces only may come back after that to try to replicate a second spell. It just isn't the same as when you're in the middle, you bowl it over. You probably chase two or three balls.

You're ball another over. You just can't ever replicate either batting or a bowling in match scenario. So, I mean, I have never looked at it from that point of view, but that was an interesting way they play the T20s. you get miles in the legs and you build all your way up to obviously a higher a bowling load. Just going to do the last three or four minutes of the show on, this won't be happening on an Indian sports radio station.

They wouldn't have just done the last three or four minutes on Virac Koli, stepping down as India's test captain. A former India wicketkeeper, Deep Dasgupta, joins us on Five Live cricket. How is the nation deep? well obviously a little stunned and surprised because it just kind of came out of the blue nobody was expecting this so a little surprised yes

I thought his I thought his statement was really good actually and just you know saying you know after after seven years and everything it's time for someone else and sort of that not that exhaustion but time to pass it on really Yeah, that is, I thought the statement was spot on.

And he's always been very, very upfront and honest. That's the kind of person he is, whether it's on the field or off the field. So I think that statement was so much him. Yeah, if you look at the cycles as far as Indian cricket is concerned, this is roughly around six years, seven-year cycle, you're starting from Mohammed Azaruddin and, you know, Saur of Ganguli, M.S. Doni and now Virar. So, you know, six, seven

years is good enough and I think after that it's time to move on. The other thing that might have been the reason is, this is the last year or so, you know, there's been a lot of off-the-field chat regarding captaincy where there was T-20, ODIs and that kind of

coincided with Virat you know, not scoring as many as we expect him to or rather he expects himself to as well. So I think I wonder whether he reckons that all this chat about captaincy and off the field is kind of affecting his cricket

or not. So maybe that could be one of the reasons that he would just want to focus on his game. Michael, the game, as we discussed a little bit on Saturday, the game at test level needs an Indian captain who adores test cricket, doesn't it?

In the same way that Virak gave his all for test cricket. Yeah, absolutely. I'm a huge Virat, Kholy fan. Unfortunately, I never met him or had the opportunity to play against him but I think he's been a wonderful ambassador for Test Cricket in particular and it's great to see someone of his profile

constantly promoting test cricket because it's important I think whether people like it or not it is dying to some degree because of the riches you can gain in the shorter form of the game and yeah I mean, it's sad to, you know, see a great player struggle, but, you know, I've no doubt that, you know, he's obviously made that decision with the best intention to, you know, want to regain that form that we've all, we all know of him.

He has, like most batsmen do, you go through patches where it's tough. And, as I said before, I'm someone that, you know, I've watched him at great quarters. I've, you know, watch him as a very young man when I first toured India in 2008. And there was lots of raps around him then. I hope, again, similar to what Joe Root has done, he goes back to, you know, that Virat Kohle of 2014, where he had that lovely flow to his game. It's looked hard work when I've watched him certainly at parts last summer

when he was batting in England. You know, he looked like a man fighting a lot of things, fighting his technique, fighting the game. So not having that, I suppose, extra baggage now of captaincy, and, you know, I believe he became a father recently as well. So, you know, congratulations. on that you know it will lighten some of the mental load i guess deep very quickly who might come next for him yeah that's a very good question i mean actually speaking is rohith but again

it'll be difficult i mean rohits not getting any younger chances are he might not be available because then he'll become captain for all three formats and uh yeah i mean keel rahul is is obviously another option a very good option at that so i think between rohith and keel rahul one of of them. But yeah, I mean, it's difficult to figure out this morning time, to be honest. Deep, thank you very much for joining us. Deep Descripts on Five Live cricket. Carlos, Michael, fascinates his stuff from you both. Enjoy the sunshine. Have you just missed that amazing goal on Five Live? Oh, what a goal! It's not the dreams are made of it.

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