Test Match Special - 5 Live Cricket: How can we engage more people in cricket?

Episode Date: May 9, 2022

Alison Mitchell and Ebony Rainford-Brent look at the accessibility of cricket, and what can be done to engage more with people from all backgrounds and whether we should be feeling optimistic, or pessimistic about the direction of travel.We chat about the challenges of finances and what needs to be done to support younger players trying to fund their youth career.Scotland international Abtaha Maqsood also joins the team to discuss cultural differences and how the game has changed since she started playing.And Ian Martin, the ECB’s head of disability cricket, explains the launch of the ECB Disability Premier League.Topics:3:45 - Tom Brown, a researcher from Birmingham City University, on representation 14:30 - The ACE Programme18:20 - Reporter Jamie Reid speaking to youngsters at an ACE session21:00 - Troy Henry part of the ACE Programme25:15 - Finances in cricket 30:30 - Abtaha Maqsood, leg spinner with Birmingham Phoenix40:30 - Ian Martin, Head of Disability Cricket at the ECB

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show. Good evening and welcome along to Five Live Cricket with me, Alison Mitchell. For the next hour, we're going to be looking at what cricket can do to make the game more accessible for everyone. And alongside me is the former England international turn broadcaster and board member at Surrey, Ebony Rainford-Brent or Ebony-Rainford-Brents, MBA, as it is now, Eves. Yeah, thank you. Fresh off it last week and meeting his royal highness, yeah, no, really honoured and really

looking forward to this subject today as well it's one that's very close to my heart indeed it was a visit to windsor wasn't it and services to cricket and charity yes it was I had to get the curtsy out I got the first one down the second one was a little bit ropy but it's okay we managed well done well done look we will get into a bit more on your role as chair of the ace program as well as we go through the show but first of all just this broad question I mean it is important isn't it that sport is accessible to all sum up why it's so important for you. Yeah, look, I think first of all, sport is the fabric of our society. I think it's something that is so powerful. And I think in young people's development, that's what I'm more passionate

about, is young people getting access to a sport. And I want to see as many young kids growing up trying a sport like ours cricket and wanting to play and being, falling in love with the game, whether it gives them anything meaningful. I don't think it matters in terms of going anywhere to play at a high level. I just think it's about young people being able to develop. develop them skills, build community, friendships, and connecting with others. I don't think there's many better sports than cricket. To me, cricket's like life and the different types of people that it can bring together, the types of environment.

And so, you know, as our sport and as we kind of go through, you know, a tough time, I would say over the last few years with cricket, I really, really want to see us start to move up the rankings to become one of the most popular sports, again, into terms of participation for young people in particular, but young people from different backgrounds and lower socio-economic as well. So we've got a long way to go. Well, that's partly where Ace comes in, isn't it?

Your chair of that programme, which you set up in 2020, to engage young people from African and Caribbean backgrounds in the game of cricket. And you're right, cricket has had a bruising time over the last six months and since 2020 even. It continues to with the necessary follow-ups from Azim Rafiq's testimony in front of the Parliamentary Committee last year. But as we start Ebony, are you feeling optimistic or pessimistic or reserving judgment about the direction that the game is going?

Yeah, I have to be honest, if you'd ask me 12 months ago, I was maybe deep down quite negative and not sure we were going in the right direction. What I would say is the conversations have completely flipped over the last sort of couple of months in particular, I think after November as well. attitudes and the awareness of how we've got to really improve cricket to become more relevant to society and support more different people. And because I've seen these conversations really open up and the awareness is high and also I'll say the accountability now is high, the conversations for me have changed and it's, I've shifted to hopeful. I know if the work is done and we continue to do the work, which the game is trying to do, we can see results. and so I would say I've shifted in the last six months I feel like we're going in the right direction

we've just all got to make sure we get on the train and go together Okay so hopeful I'll check in with you again after the next 60 minutes and see if that dial has shifted a little bit more either way well let's get into it then and start with some facts and figures around British Asian representation at the playing level

now the ECB estimates that around 30% of recreational players are from the British South Asian community but at professional level, this drops off to about 4%. So that's a huge gap. Now, let's speak to Tom Brown, who is a researcher from Birmingham City University. He's done a vast amount of research into this area. He also set up the South Asian Cricket Association, which aims to increase representation in the professional game.

Evening, Tom. Hello, you're right. Yeah, good, thank you. Numbers indicate that sharp drop-off. What have you found, or what do you believe the barriers are leading to that? well I mean that's the big question isn't it really why why does that happen and firstly we had to look of is that a reflection of the talent pathways or is that and you know we need to get people into the talent pathways or is it that players are in

the talent pathways and can't convert and it's the latter really that the talent pathways are really well represented it's just trying to get through to that final step of becoming a professional player and I think through a lot of our research we've done several studies and to try and narrow it down as best I can for a radio show, the short answer is I think there's a bit of a cultural ignorance on both sides, really, as to how to maximize the talent and how to subjectively assess players' performances. So I think the current system at the moment does rely a lot on the subjective views of coaches. And if those views aren't informed around cultural norms and behaviors and learning styles, then unfortunately some of these

think can be misinterpreted and actually go against players when really they're trying to do things that would show respect or show engagement in their own ways. So quite an educational piece sounds like is needed, EBS, listening to what Tom's saying there. Yeah, look, and I've spent a lot of time, hey, good to see you, Tom, or speak to you even. Yeah, look, we spent a lot of time ourselves talking about, and I also understand from a slightly different background, you know, my mum was Jamaican and you have very different ways of expressing yourself and I knew when I walked into the world of cricket and we're not talking about South Asian I'm talking about sort of being Jamaican heritage that you could be misconstrued

labels came onto you about lazy because you didn't seem to be projecting yourself in a certain way and you know it took me a long time to you know I think I only became successful as a player because I dropped a number of those sort of cultural ways and adapted to the traditional cricket world but what rather than just being yourself rather than being myself out of them being myself. And we also have done a lot of, you know, we started looking into our young people's experience in ACE at the moment. And one of the things that comes up quite big for them is they feel they can be themselves

an identity. So what Tom's talking about, you know, and a lot of my friends come from the South Asian communities. I grew up in inner city, London, with a melting pot. And I can see clearly how things can be misconstrued. And it's, you know, if you're not in the position of the power, that's the problem, right? if we had maybe more Asian coaches or black coaches or people from working class backgrounds

in those positions of power, they would understand and be able to educate. The problem is the game isn't sort of set up in that sort of way. And so I guess I'll throw back to Tom because the question for you from my end is, can we crack this? This is a big nut to crack. But I think there's a very different problem

in different communities, but this feels like the Asian community have the best chance because there is representation. Where do we go? Well, yeah, I think that's the, that's the thing, isn't it, that all different communities are at different levels in terms of what assistance

they require. And like you say, the Asian community are pretty much there to the final step in the men's game. It's very different in the women's game where the representation doesn't appear to be in the pathway at all. But I guess there's two options, really. You can either, well,

and I think we should do both, really. There should be an education program about, from both sides, sort of, A, this is what's expected of you as a player and going the extra Instead of judging players for how well they fit into the performance environment, go the extra mile to make sure they understand what's required of them in that environment, especially when you compare someone who's sort of white British and been to a private school, the mannerisms we're looking for certainly, especially around a character assessment or around, you know, white

privately educated, how they sort of address themselves and hold themselves up, et cetera. But the other thing you can do is objectify the talent selection system to try and mitigate those biases. So try and find things, something like resilience or something called your perceptual cognitive skills. So the ability you have to anticipate bowler's cues, for example. And are those truly measurable? There is the sort of science to do those kind of tests. Well, resilience is tough from a talent ID perspective because at the moment, the best way we have are doing that's a questionnaire. And if I'm being really honest, if I knew a selection was on it, I'd probably lie. I'm incredibly resilient.

But perceptual cognitive skills definitely there's several studies that have highlighted how to do it and it's something that the game could adapt. There was a really good study in Australia where a few academies basically implemented this and half the lads got training, half a lads didn't and the lads that got it shut on and dramatically increased their performances. So these types of things could really help mitigate biases but also improve our talent idea and development systems. Yeah, it's an interesting area, isn't it? And what about the, you mentioned private schools.

Overwhelmingly, numbers of test players for England are white and disproportionately privately educated as well. I guess, you know, you look at private schools. There is there the money there. Cricket's an expensive sport. You need facilities. You have lovely cricket fields. You can have ex-pros to be your professionals at school. How does that gap get bridged so that, you know, children attending state schools can actually have a level playing field.

Well, if I'm being really honest and it's a bit of a pessimistic view, it's going to be incredibly difficult to level the playing field completely because of all the things you've said there. I mean, there's also, like I said before, the other stuff that comes with it, like being part of a smaller class size, so you develop better psychosocial skills and learn how to converse with other people, etc.

But I think we have to be looking at some sort of program or if not to go into schools and upskill state schools, then we have to look as a game as to how we, almost from a positive discrimination point of view, help those from state schools to try and provide them with the experiences that private school kids get as soon as they leave our training facilities and that will require investment

and a lot of sort of evaluation as to how we tread the balance with our positive discrimination programs. Yeah, just our chip in there, actually. One of the number one things we did when we were looking at ACE and we haven't closed this gap yet, but we're working on it and is contact hours. So if you take a traditional young person

could be 12 or 13 at a private school, during cricket term, they could be getting 30 hours a week. They've got all Wednesday dedicated to sports day, so they're playing fixtures, they're playing Saturday, Sundays, in between classes, they're getting one-to-ones. The contact hours, we're able to, for example,

at Ace Academy, give the kids is five hours, three to four hours on one day and then we've managed to up it to sort of around eight. But that is still a long way away. And so you think about closing that gap. I do think there are ways of tackling this as well. One example would be we work with Wittgift School, for example, who parted with us over the last recent. And I think the private schools can actually use their resources

from a sort of community and social outreach perspective to help. You know, there's no doubt that the access to the amount of facilities pictures, etc. And so they've done things from off of residential space during the summer so we could get really intense and get more contact hours.

They've offered really low cost to access their nets on hours that works for them but also a bit of support to others. So I think there's ways that we've got to look to get those hours up but I think the one thing that we have to be clear on

and from my perspective is getting as many contact hours as close to the young people as possible. Tom, I want to just ask you about the world that you are doing with Kick It Out because you've got a role alongside Michael Carberry the former England International as well, haven't you?

Yeah, so me and Michael have literally just started a role together and I think collectively he's obviously got the experience as a player, played all the way up to the top at test cricket and obviously he was vocal about his own experiences in the game and then I sort of bring things together from a research and data perspective as well so together hopefully we can collectively make some good suggestions as to how we can move forward. I think the one thing we're very keen on not doing

is just producing another report and actually trying to identify areas to make action and move forward. Tom, thank you for being with us. Tom Brown, researcher from Birmingham City University who helped set up the South Asian Cricket Association. Speaking of reports, you'll remember that the ECB set up

their Independent Commission for Equity in Cricket, ICECC, Cindy Butts is chairing that. That's looking at, at gaining evidence, written evidence has now been taken. A report is expected in autumn, and that does centre around report evidence based on experience, actual lived experience, Ebony, to make sort of real life recommendations to the ECB.

So are you feeling sort of all eyes on that as a step forward? I think it's going to be, again, a bit more of a shock. You know, I think, you know, what we started seeing after what happened with Azeem Rafiq is experiences starting to come out more and more details, more, and we heard maybe more from the professional side. But I think the experiences in grassroots and community hadn't been logged. And, you know, I know thousands have put in and that's maybe taken a long time to process.

So I hope, what I do hope, whatever comes out, you know, I'm not going to be shocked by experiences. I've experienced myself, many things. And I know I've heard stories. What I think is key, and Tom kind of talked about it in his work with Kick It Out, is tangible actions that will lead to change. And I think you can always get quick wins. get started, get moving, and then draw out some longer ones which are going to take time to embed into a sort of a big institution. But I just want to see tangible actions come out of that report.

So I think it's going to be another spicy one, if I'm honest, but I hope it continues to lead to more conversation and awareness, but rapid change. We need change. Well, talking of action, tell us more about the ACE program then, because since it launched in 2020, what more than 6,000 young people have engaged with it in some form, which is which is incredible numbers. How are you sort of measuring, I suppose, you know, what does success look like? It's not just about numbers, is it?

Yeah, look, first of all, I'm impatient. So when I was talking about wanting tangible change. Surprises. Yeah, you know me very well, Ali. Myself and Chevy, who's the director of programmes, and also Richard Gould, who was the outgoing chief executive, sorry, but still a trustee on Ace. We all just wanted to move.

We don't want to wait and create these long strategies of how willing get, Let's just get out their test and change. And we were set up just for people's understanding. ACE program stands for African Caribbean engagement. There'd been a drop off by 75% of professional players. The black community were less than 1% of participation. These numbers were going backwards at a stark rate. It wasn't a new problem, but it needed some urgent action.

And we started off by thinking, let's just try and find the best people who are out there, young people who we could support, let's not lose a generation of players who could then inspire the net. And we marketed it very well. BBC helped out all the different channels to get the word out. And we had 100 young people turn up and quite a few had decent levels of talents which shocked us. We weren't sure if it was just going to be kids who fancy to try. No actual kids who weren't within the structure but had the talent to play. And so that kind of accelerated change, Sport England said,

can you work backwards and create what you think based on our models and Chevy's worked in development for years, what you would do to sort of break these barriers down and get in. in. They gave us half a million to do it, which was kind of like, wow, okay, thank you. But also they set us the ambition to go national and try and tackle these problems quite well. So London was very different. London, we were able to get in. We got into schools, hub sessions, which are communities, tried to work everything we could to get the timings right, the location's right, the right coaches, reduce all equipment problems, cost, it's all free. We did all of that sort of stuff. London was moving quickly

Birmingham would be honest It needed a good six months of re-engaging the community It felt like it had dropped off a cliff But now sort of a year and a bit later Now we're starting to see that movement we wanted And then Bristol we got going Which is mostly small similar to London

Had some momentum And so I think each city has a different dynamic But what was clear And I think this is the one thing That I want to make clear And I understand it from growing up in a more lower socio-economic area. It was important to spell out to kids, schools and parents

this huge opportunity there was for their young people. And I'm not saying that everyone's going to go on and play for England or anything like that. But the point was, if your kid has potential, whether that's a love of the game, or wants to go as far as they can. And so we create this thing called a golden ticket and we say, right, we're going to hand these out to young people

who show that little bit of extra either excitement during their sessions or talent. And I think that shifts the perspective because they're parents who, you know, my mum was working nights, two, three jobs. When you say come to this session, they're having to make that extra effort, but also realizing, look, we're going to support their kids as far as we possibly can. And I do think that's made a difference. So the young people on the journey are really trying to enjoy the sport, but also fulfill their potential. I hope that ACE, what does success mean to us? I do want to see representation in the professional playing.

But also, I think what we're seeing is young people are now, whatever love they have for cricket, whether it's sports media, whether it's, you know, different parts of the sport, we're starting to give experiences for them to be able to get wider into sports. Maybe we'll have a chief executive one day who came through the ACE program. So our vision really is to just really help diversify cricket. You mentioned costs, and we're going to come on to that in a moment. But we actually managed to send our reporter Jamie Reid down to one of your ACE sessions, Eb. So have a little listen to this. I love it. It's so much fun. It's just great.

I mean, like, it rings everywhere. It's just so fun. Yeah, so I'm Tracy, and I've come today with my son Raffey. Okay, and Raffey's clearly enjoying himself. Tell us a little bit about his experience and how much he loves the game with cricket. I mean, this is his favourite club of the week. He does a couple of after-school clubs,

but coming here is the highlight of what he does after-school, especially because it's in such an amazing venue I mean it's not often that you get the chance to come into the Oval it's not a sport that's usually offered at school I know they do a lot of football and basketball but they don't do any cricket as far as I know as part of their normal kind of PE curriculum so it's really nice that he's getting to try something different

So you are... Anaya and... Alachi and Anaya I used to think it was just like man playing but when I watched the hundreds and I even watched the World Cup seeing the woman, then I could do it too. Yeah, you can do it, absolutely.

Do you agree with that? Yeah. I was actually one of the first people here, well, the first, and from the day one, I came here thinking, oh, this is a little thing I can enjoy. But after being here for like a few months

or maybe a year now, I think I want to carry on with it. for London. And it's also helped me take chances like represent Lambeth in the London youth games. We actually both did it and you get to make super cool new friends like Elakshi here. And one final question to you both because the woman behind all of this is Ebony Rayneford Grant. What does that name mean to you? I'm really happy she decided to like have this amazing idea because if she hadn't I probably wouldn't be into cricket right now and I'd still be at home not liking sports. I'm really happy for it because if she didn't make this I would have never

had a new friend like her. Oh there you go. I wish this program was video streamed because if you could have seen Ebony's face listening there to Alakshi and I you were beaming and then you went quite bashful when she said you know if it wasn't for you she'd be sitting at home. It's it's a You're making a difference. Let's speak to somebody who is graduating through the ACE system right now. Troy Henry is part of the ACE program, is captain of the academy team and doing his coaching qualifications as well. Troy, good evening to you. Good evening. Thanks for coming on.

Just tell us first of all then, how did you get involved in Ace? Had you looked to get into cricket any other way before? So I'd been playing cricket since I was four years old. I've played for Hartfordshire County and a club called Leverstock Green. just five minutes away from me. But there was someone called Steve Stevenson who promotes a lot of Caribbean cricket in England and he found out about the A's program

and told me to go down to the Oval and have a trial down there. And that's how I got involved with it. Fantastic. What has it done for you? What's your experience of these sessions being? It's generally been amazing to think that a lot of international

cricket players have played at the Oval, obviously professional cricketers, like not a lot of people get to use those facilities and it's one of the most amazing experiences. How different has it been to, I suppose, the pathway that you were on before. Why has it helped you particularly being involved in ACE other than obviously being able to tread the wonderful green grass of the Oval? It's been quite good due to the coaches. We have lots of level-free coaches. So if there's, um, if I want to be developing my game, I can ask the coaches any questions to help me get there to, because my aim really is to be a professional cricketer. And obviously with this program, it can help me represent myself and put myself out there to

perform in games such as, um, playing against other counties and stuff like that to get recognized. So yeah. Yeah, Troy, we've got Ebony here, of course. Yeah, I was going to chip in. I was going to say as well, like one thing I've been proud and I've watched a bit of your journey and I know your mum as well, Holly, who I don't know if she's listening, but if she is, hello, Holly, but one thing I've been, I've noticed how hard you were. Obviously, Chevy major captain, but one thing that stood out is the fact that you were prepared to change your bowling, for example, so you've now become a spinner. I've seen you working hard. I guess the question to you is, you were putting in the hard yards at the moment. What is inspiring you to do that? Is it wanting to play? Is it making mum and dad proud? What's it for you? A bit of both, really. Obviously, I've been playing since I was four,

so I've had a genuine love for the game, but also to make my parents proud, they've been taking me everywhere, watching my games, supporting me to the max, really. So to make them proud, yeah, that would mean a lot to me. And what are the boys like?

Is there a lot of banter? Come on. Tell us what it's like down at a traditional session. Yeah, yeah, it's quite good there. It's always a challenge. everyone's trying to get each other out, eat each other for sixes and stuff like that. But yeah, it's quite good.

Troy, we wish you the best of luck on your journey. And maybe we will see you in the pro games. We need a few ace wins as well this summer. They started this season. We've had a decent start. Troy, are we going to get some wins? No doubt, no doubt. What's Ebony like, Troy?

That's what I want to know when she comes down to the sessions. Loud. She likes to get involved. in watching, commentating quite a lot of when we have competition in the nets

commentating if she sees a big shot she'll shout it and stuff like that but yeah and just before I let you go as well what are you learning

from the others that you're playing alongside in the ACE program as well the others that you've met through doing this particular program it's quite beneficial

because obviously all of us are not the same so we're learning other skills from each other so like I could be learning

someone else is how they bowl and what they bowl to what field and stuff and understand why they do that and stuff like that. Yeah, learning all the time. Yeah. Well, Troy, we'll keep an eye on how you progress in the ACE program and indeed beyond. And some wins and some wins. It's all about the wins.

Of course. It's not the taking part. It's about the wins. Troy, thanks so much for joining us. That is Troy Henry, who is part of the ACE program in London. Now, Ebony, you mentioned that the ace program is free at the moment. I mean, one hurdle in cricket and sport in general really is about accessibility due to finances. And, you know, not everyone can afford to play cricket because you've got to think about playing kits.

You've got to think about the cost of coaching. You've got to think about the travel. Now, earlier in the year, Matt Pryor, former England wicketkeeper, spoke out about this, saying the average cost of age group cricket is £1,000 per child each season. That's around 400 to 450 in coaching, he was saying. a minimum of £300 on kits and then travel. And he was saying, you know, this should all be free. A couple of things then, Ebbs. I mean, are talented youngsters being priced out of the game

and should or, you know, can coaching and cricket just be free? So first of all, I mean, I saw Matt Pryor talk about this and I was really, I was really great because obviously his profile, his level of playing, I think he's got such a voice and to hear him kind of highlight a big issue. Let's be honest, you know, my mum work nights, I got free school meals. And when you said £1,000, I mean, some households could be on 12,000, 15,000 as the main earner. That's the cost of your electricity bill for the year. That's, you know, that's a killing a household.

There's no way someone can afford that for us. Electricity bills now shot up as well. Now you had inflation and costs going through the roof. You know, let's be honest, it's not happening for lower socio-economic families at that level. Now, where I got lucky, you know, my mum used to struggle. I remember when I asked her for two pounds, which was the first cost of a course. And she did it, but it was through gritted teeth each week. It was really tough.

But I had one fortunate lady, a lady called Jenny Washtray who got me a number of scholarships. Once she saw me, Brian Johnston, I got sports aid, continuously. Without those, there was absolutely no way we could pay for travel, equipment, everything. I was fortunate to get all of that. And Jenny proactively supported me. So the question is that is pricing people out. And I think I actually don't think equipment as much of as a barrier as we think because once what we've seen with Ace, for example,

if you say to the kids there's a kit bag, you're all right. Don't worry about that. That's not so much of an issue if you can provide sort of group kits for kids. But the truth is once you start stacking up those costs, the parents are going to say it's not happening. And we need to find a way. I don't know if it free is the answer, but I think very, very low cost

because I do think there's a little bit of value actually, whether you put your 50p, your pound or five pound, ten pounds, whatever it is. I do think you get value by asking people to contribute to the environment and pay what you can. But that number's got to drastically come down and I think it's got to be along on the lines of a lot of other sports. Get that down to a few hundred quid throughout the year

and maybe supported different levels that really support people. So for me, that's got to change. I'm glad Matt Pry spoke out and I think counties have got a look at how they really, really break that down. I mean, there's the programmes to get children into cricket. You've got the ECB run, the All-Stars and the Dynamos and that's 40, well, not 40 to 50 pounds

depending on where you are in the country for either six or eight sessions across the summer. And, you know, even that can be expensive. With that, you get the kit, you get a bat and you get some stumps. But, you know, that can still be a barry. You mentioned Brian Johnston, and that is the Johnner's trust, isn't it, which, and I'll declare an interest here because I'm a trustee, but it offers grants to talented youngsters who are in the system already, whether that's, you know,

regional for the girls or age group county for the boys, specifically to help with, you know, finances, getting to training, buying kit. And I have to say that applications this year, you know, you could see that it was also pandemic exacerbated as well. Parents who had, you know, lost a job during COVID and not gained it back yet. There might be a family who have suddenly suffered, you know, a real blow with ill health. The main breadwinner has, you know, had to go into hospital or so, so many stories. So there are some schemes to help, but it's firstly, I suppose, knowing about them and also knowing the right way of sort of getting that help. And you were fortunate to have that mental who understood your situation.

And that's got to be also part of what you're doing with ACE is actually personally getting to know the players, like with, you know, you know, Troy very well. But yeah, if you know your players, you know actually who needs that little bit of assistance. Yeah, look, I think there's simple things we can do. I would like to see, for example, you know, when you're doing your registration or you've got a young person, simply asking questions like, how are you getting to the session, can give you a lot of information. For us, some young people will be coming by bus, by tube, and you sort of start to probe, okay, will it be with you, with your mum, who's come. You know, sometimes once you get to know the young person, you realise there's something going on behind the scenes where you can add value or support or reduce that problem. Equally, we've had other parents who say, do you know what, we're in a good position at the moment, we will cater.

So I think there's no doubt that we've got to understand the young people, but equally, we've got to get as much through because it's great that we can give the elite, you know, the top percentage of young talent. But actually, we want more coming through the door, and so we've got to reduce that number significantly. Now, our next guest is a Scottish international and a star of the inaugural hundred. Abtahamakshud is with us. Legspinner with Birmingham, Phoenix. Abduha, welcome to Five Live. How are you? I'm good, thank you.

How are you? Very well. It's great to speak to you again. Tell us, first of all, your journey into cricket. When did you start and how? So I used to play quite a lot of cricket in the garden with my dad and my two brothers. So that was back when I was pretty young. And then I think I was about 10 or 11 when I talked to my dad.

and my mum about getting me into a club and they had a look and I mean they found it really difficult to find a women's club so they kind of told me that they had found a women's only club and took me over to Pollock Cricket Club in Glasgow and I had a look and it was actually a team full of boys and I was the only girl so

they kind of made me go there by telling me that I was going to be a women's only club. But I'm glad they did it anyway. But that's kind of how it started. And then I started playing for Pollock when I was about 11. And then from then on, I started playing for Scotland or 17s when I was about 12, 13. And then made my debut for the full Scotland team when I was 14.

So Abda, when you sort of burst onto the scene with the 100, suddenly playing in such a high profile tournament, you're a 22-year-old Muslim female player. you bowl leg spin, you wear the hijab. What was last summer like? Because you attracted an awful lot of positive, well, from the outside it looked positive and did it feel all positive to you?

How did you feel that you were received? And what was the experience of the spotlight of last summer? I mean, the 100 was amazing. It was bigger than I ever could have thought. But yeah, it was mainly just positivity. A lot of positive comments on Twitter and other social media and just so many nice comments

from people in the crowds as well whenever we walked around the boundary so it was just a whole load of overwhelming positivity but I mean there is always going to be some sort of negativity out there as well which I got on social media a little bit but I mean as a whole it was completely it was very positive and I can't wait to do it all over again hopefully

Yeah you said that you know very happy and want to be a role model for young British Asian females. Do you feel that you've sort of helped to open some eyes? And are you cognizance of what some of the barriers might be, particularly amongst the Muslim community when it comes to women in particular playing cricket? Yeah, no, definitely. I think when I was younger,

I didn't really know about the cultural barriers as much. And I think that's mainly because my parents and just my whole family were so supportive and didn't really let me see that there were any barriers, which was amazing from them. But as I've grown up, and I've seen messages on social media and stuff like that, and just had interactions with people, I am aware now that there are definitely cultural barriers out there, and it is difficult for, well, we all know it's difficult for women to get into sport anyway sometimes, but it's even harder if you're a South Asian woman just with those

cultural barriers. So I have definitely faced some of that, but thankfully for me, I've had two really supportive parents who have always helped me through it all. Abtahis, Ebony here. Just a quick question. I'm asking this, me partly out of personal kind of thinking about my journey in cricket. And I never really had to talk about race or ethnicity or black people in cricket until I'd finished playing. And then that became more of it a thing, whereas I guess you're in the heat of your career and you're talking about these big issues and societies change. Do you feel pressure at all? Does it add pressure to your performance or is it something that you're able to kind of coexist with and feel comfortable with? I try not to think about it too much. I think for me, it's actually quite motivational whenever I hear all the positive comments from different people, as I said, when I was walking around the boundary after nearly every single.

100 game. I had loads of people come up to me and just tell me about how I'm a role model for them and stuff like that, which was so wholesome and so nice to hear. And things like that actually motivate me more to be the best cricketer that I can possibly be. So it can be a little bit of pressure, but for me it's more motivational. What positive changes, you know, have you seen around you already either, you know, when you're with Cricket Scotland, or with Birmingham Phoenix, around the idea of the inclusivity and the understanding of the different cultures that might exist within a cricket team?

Yeah, I've actually seen quite a lot of changes, especially in the past year, which has been really good, really good positive changes, especially with the Scotland women's team. I've always felt really comfortable playing with them. I've played with them since I was 14, so I have always felt quite comfortable. but the amount of times that those girls ask me a whole other questions about my culture and faith and beliefs is actually really I really enjoy that

because I've said this before like I would much rather people were to ask me questions about those sort of things rather than just assume things about my faith and my religion so I actually really like it when people ask me questions and that sort of thing happens quite a lot in the Scotland team and we're all very open. and honest with each other about it and we've had a lot of really good honest conversations surrounding race and religion and stuff like that

so I've always felt really comfortable with every team that I've been a part of so far are they curious about how you manage sort of elite fitness in sport around Ramadan in particular oh yeah definitely we get questions around that pretty much every year

it is tough and Ramadan just passed and it wasn't an easy easy month but yeah how do you juggle it it's quite I mean you can't just get on with it after a while

people usually tell me that oh I can never do it I can never fast for 30 days and play cricket but if you were to actually do it you actually do just end up getting on with it and just doing it but there is a lot of planning involved as well and I try to

do a lot of my gym stuff or like conditioning work after sunset when I can eat and drink again. So there is a lot of planning and we do. I do talk to my S&C coaches and nutritionists and stuff like that just to make sure that I'm keeping safe and well. Yeah. And are you noticing that, I mean, for example, would catering around cricket, you know, include halal food now, whereas it might not have done in the past.

I mean, I guess this is something that goes all the way through, you know, club level, recreational, you know, if you're playing on a Saturday afternoon at a local club and there's sort of sandwiches afterwards or, you know, whatever it might be, it's sort of having that awareness to, I'd say, cater for, in the literal sense, but, you know, broadly catering, whether it's, you know, prayer rooms, whatever it might be. yeah so in terms of food actually when I was younger more teenage years I actually used to dread teas during cricket just because it was there was nothing halal there it was always like cheese sandwiches for me it was they didn't really cater that well for Muslim players but one of my teammates who now works for cricket Scotland as well she kind of watched me grow up and watched me

be the character that I am today basically and she's tried to incorporate as much halal food and stuff like clothing as well like I don't wear shorts I don't wear shorts sleeves so she's kind of made sure that all of that I have access to all of that in terms of food and clothing so stuff has definitely changed

and there's a lot of positive change coming about and so yeah yeah and clothing is a whole other topic isn't it as we could do in terms of young girls engagements and, you know, crickets wearing whites when, you know, young girls are starting to menstruate and the sort of body image that they worry about. But, yeah, if you could sort of wave a magic wonder, there's still areas that you would like to see further positive change in.

What would they be? I think for me is just trying to make sure that, I mean, with South Asian girls in particular, there's so much talent out there. I've seen firsthand the amount of potential there is, in terms of the amount of potential there is, in of cricket in particular just because we love cricket so much back in Pakistan and India and the subcontinent. And I've seen that firsthand and I just want to make sure that we're not wasting that talent and we're making sure that we're making the most of it and trying to target these girls as much as possible and not losing them when they start growing

up and those cultural barriers start to kick in. So we need to try and find a way to make make sure that we're as supportive as possible and as welcoming as possible to these girls. Abdera Hart, it's a pleasure to speak to you as always. Enjoy the season ahead and look forward to seeing in action with Birmingham, Phoenix and indeed Scotland as well. Thank you very much. Abderhaqsoude, Legisbina with Scotland and Birmingham Phoenix.

Now, this season marks a world first for disability cricket when the ECB Disability Premier League launches, bringing together deaf, learning disability and physical disability cricketers playing against and alongside each other. Now, Ian Martin, is Head of Disability Cricket at the ECB and joins us. Evening, Ian. Good evening, Ali. How are you? Very well, thank you. Good to have you on. Now, you've said that a league like this doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.

Is that right? Yeah, that's right. Look, there's plenty of disability Premier Leagues elsewhere in the world, but they're all impairments. meaning that the Disability Premier League in India, for example, is just for players with physical disabilities. The one that we're going to run over here is for all cricketers with hearing impairments, cricketers with learning disabilities and cricketers with physical disabilities. Basically what we're saying is that we're taking the best from our national squads and from our domestic system, mixing them all together and providing a best-be-best competition.

because what we recognised was that, you know, making the step from domestic disability cricket up to England level is quite a big leap. So what we wanted to do is to increase the standard of competition below the England level and to play as in the domestic game another tournament to aspire to be part of. So what other challenge is going to be then of bringing those different disabilities together? Well, we ran a pilot last year to take a look at how this would work.

I mean, we felt that the format would work anyway because obviously we know the players really, really well. But until you actually take a look at it and you, you know, you run trial games, etc., similar to what the 100 did a few years ago, you know, you think the concept going to work, but until you actually see it in place, you're not too sure. So we ran a pilot last year and it exceeded all. expectations, to be honest. The players were amazing. They all wanted to learn about each other's disabilities. And we even had an example where we had a wicketkeeper who had dropped a catch off one of the deaf bowlers. He then went and learned the sign language for sorry, so he could go and apologize to the bowler. So there's all that stuff going on. It's brilliant to see the way they've all pulled together

and they're all interested in seeing how each other navigates their own challenges to play the game at the level that they do. Yeah, that's breaking down barriers in its own way, isn't it? It sort of internally-wise. I mean, one thing that I always note about the disability cricket at the elite level

is that, and this is an all-male league, isn't it? One area of disability cricket, which still needs to evolve at the elite level, is women's disability cricket. Sort of where is the game with that, Ian? Well, I would say for Disability Premier League, I've got some news for you. We do have our first female player playing in that this year. So it's a mixed league as well.

It can be a mixed league. You know, once we get more female players of standard, absolutely, it's a mixed league. There's no problem at all with females coming in. Ultimately, the aim would be to have a separate female league. And, you know, there will be, well, there is work going on to attract more female disabled players into the game. game. I'm doing a lot of work or starting to do a lot more work with blind female cricketers with a view to an England female team taking part in the International Blind Sports Association World Blind Games next year, which is taking place in Birmingham and cricket is

going to be part of those games for the first time ever. So we're hoping to have an England men's and an England women's team participating in the World Blind Games next year. That would be a first. Yeah, definitely. I know we go way back so I know you don't need to know who I am but um actually don't tell any dodgy stories but anyway

I guess plenty my question I guess is you know I'm intrigued in the sort of the pathway so this Premier League is going to be kind of the icing on the cake and I really like it what are we seeing in terms of sort of the step below which might be the sort

of developmental phase are we seeing enough coming through from the grassroots into those environments is that is that increasing, so that sort of funnel of talent is getting better? Well, the one thing we do know is that participation is increasing in disability cricket. We work in partnership for Lords Tavernas and their Super Ones program at the entry level. We also have an ECB funded program called Champion Clubs, Disability Champion Clubs, of which there are now over 100 across the country.

so we know we've got youngsters with disabilities coming in at the participation level we've then got pathway competitions called super nines and d40 and they are for deaf and hard of hearing learning disability and young cricketers with physical disabilities and then we've got a separate blind cricket pathway as well where we've got a domestic blind cricket run by blind cricket England and Wales and also an international program to go with that. But in addition to disability-specific interventions, there are also disabled players playing in mainstream cricket,

and we estimate that in total there's over 72,000 disabled people accessing cricket on a regular basis throughout the summer. So from a disability sport perspective, 72,000 participants is a significant number. So it's a very, very well populated sport, if you like, by the disabled community. And I put that down to really the flexibility of the game and the way that coaches can adapt it according to the audience that they're working with. So you can adapt the format of the game. You can adapt the equipment all to suit the nature of the disabilities that you're working with.

And, you know, as we discussed earlier, if you're talented, enough. You do have the opportunity to aspire to DPL level and onwards up to England level. You know, you might be aware that there's a learning disability and a deaf England team departing to Australia in June to compete in an Ash's series. So the opportunities are there for disabled players that want to get involved. Are they flying economy or business class, Ian?

They'll be flying business. Now that is progression, that's good to me. That's sort of where the women's game was several years ago, wasn't it? And so that is sort of investment. Ian, thank you for filling us in and giving us a little bit of an overview. And yet that will be a world first for disability cricket with the launch of that Premier League. And then, yeah, the Blind World Games staged in Birmingham next year. So a women's blind team for the first time.

That is certainly progress. That's Ian Martin, head of Disability Cricket at the ECB. EBS, we've had sort of, yeah, an hour of looking at various aspects. And there's still more aspects you could delve into when it comes to accessibility. You were hopeful at the start of the hour. How are you feeling now? Yeah, definitely still hopeful. I think we've covered so many different areas, socio-economic, different ethnicities, religion, disability.

And there's a lot of work being done. And there's a lot of hard work being done behind the scenes that I think people deserve credit for. we've just got to keep reducing the barriers it's as simple as that and I think if we chip away and get really laser focused at what those barriers are and learn from experience

get the data as well and back those two things up how do people feel when they're accessing our sport and what are the numbers telling us and I think if we keep both of those things in play all the time we can see change

so I'm happy I think in the next 10 years if we all get our heads down we could make cricket shoot up there again for team sport and how do you think the best, do you believe the best measurements of success is?

Yeah, look, there's two things I keep hopping on about. The number one has to be experience. And there's so many ways to measure experience through stories. You know, I'm sure the ICC work will tell us about experience. I think you've got to understand how people feel. If someone has a good experience the first time they go to a club or a session or an environment, whatever their background is, they will stay. Then after that, we've got to measure it.

We've got to look at the numbers and the more coming through the door. So there's so many metrics that we could go into. But I think if we marry those two together, experience of how people feel and then capture those numbers, we can see success. And a very, very final thought is what can we do as the media to encourage greater participation? Well, I think what we've seen actually in the last year, year and a half from the media has been exactly what we need.

In terms of these big issues have been brought to the surface and the stories keep having to be told. And I think by just highlighting and asking big questions, questions and keeping the sport accountable is what the media needs to do. Share the positive stories because there will be plenty, but also tell the areas that we need to improve. So I think the media can keep shouting about it. A big thank you to all our guests for joining us tonight and an even bigger thank you to you for listening. Bye for now. Jill Scott's Coffee Club. Jill Scott there has a little great turn. Beautiful.

Hi yeah. I'm Jill Scott, England Midfielder, Coffee Obsessive and Dress and Moon Joker. And you left out second highest cat The England player of all time in there, Jillie. Oh, I should have put that in, shouldn't I? We're going to be chatting to some of the biggest names in women's football over a cup of coffee. If you still got that dog that you don't get on with? No, I like him now, yeah, Norman.

We had one before that called Jimmy. So you couldn't call him like Kyle. I went to Nando's and ordered some chicken wings. I'm not at that. Jill Scott's Coffee Club. Listen on BBC Sounds. Thank you.