Test Match Special - Alec Stewart looks back on success with Surrey

Episode Date: October 12, 2024

Kevin Howells is alongside Surrey correspondent Mark Church to speak to former Surrey Director of Cricket Alec Stewart.They discuss Stewart’s legacy as he moves into a new role with Surrey, as well as his thoughts on the long-term future of the County Championship and how Dan Worrall was his “best signing” at the club

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you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and Cs apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live Welcome to Test Match Special and our podcast featuring one very special guest former England captain and stepping aside director of cricket at champion county Surrey, Alex Stewart.

Along with Mark Church, who's been following Surrey for a quarter of a century for the BBC, we explore that journey from Division 2, Surrey to three times crowned county champions in successive seasons, 11 years of running Surrey. Plus, what does Alex think

not only of Surrey's future, but the future of county championship cricket. First, we began by catching up on the news this week that Alec is staying on in a newly constructed role. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. This new role, high-performance cricket advisor. Have you any idea what it means yet, Alec? No, not yet. I actually said to our chief exec, I'll probably need a postcard,

instead of just a business card, you get the long title on there. I think it was important that one, you know, back in early March I announced I was going to step down from the director of cricket role, which is, you know, full on, I won't say 365 days a year, but not far off. And therefore, if I was going to stay in a, make a similar role, but different capacity, different volume of days there, then it needed to be another title just so that both internally, but. also to the outside world. He's not doing the type of cricket role, but on a vastly reduced daytime. The thing that, and obviously it's no good to me try and claim that I know you because I don't,

but you know, you pick up a few things over the years. The thing that I'm thinking about from your perspective is, I don't know if you're a perfect. Would you call yourself a perfectionist? No, I aim to be the best version of whatever I can be. Okay. It leads me on to thinking. You've been doing this job in the way that you've been doing it.

Yes, it's going to change, but your passion remains the same. Your desire, your goals will remain the same. I'm just wondering how easy you're going to find this. Yeah, good question. And I haven't given you the answer yet because I won't know until probably mid-season, to be honest. And that's what I've said to the club. I said, look, they wanted me to stay. I didn't want to go, but for family reasons.

etc. And, you know, I'm getting on a bit. I needed a step down. And then if I can still help Surrey continue this little period of success, then, you know, I'll make sure I do that. But you're sounding like my wife when she said, you won't just do whatever it's going to be, 40 days, whatever it may be, because exactly as you've said, you won't do it until you've completed the job properly. So I've got to be disciplined in that. and I've also got to make sure that the people who I hand over more responsibility to that they can manage that in their work loads to so that it is still you know the wheel still turns at the right pace smoothly and we carry on what we're doing I know that and for

reasons that are well documented and so perfectly understood and respected that like you You know, you've had people allegedly coming up to you in recent years and saying, would you do this job for us? Would you fancy maybe the England job and selecting job and the like? I'm just wondering, would you ever consider working for anybody other than Surrey? Listen, if things had been better, say, at home with my wife's health, going back, you know, this has been ongoing for a dozen years or so, would I like to have worked for England or is England?

Yes. You know, I'm not going to hide behind that. you know my love of Surrey but also my love of England the country but England the cricket set up too so yes I would have done is there an opportunity of doing something moving forward in a very you know part-time role I don't know so I'm never going to close the door because you know we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow next week next month whatever so yes I would have thought about and I did seriously think about applying or for some England roles but that wasn't going to be possible but I'll still like always say to Surrey I'd say to England if there's something that fits me and fits them yeah

of course I'd look at it but first and foremost let's try and get this Surrey role working well so that come first of January everything's in place and then we'll find out pretty soon as I say mid-season is it working as we want it to work am I being self-year-old disciplined in not going back to being full-time because that can't happen, but still making sure the job is done with the great support of the management team I have at the ground. We might expand and explore some of those things later on in our chat, but I'm delighted that Mark Churchy is with us as well, Churchill, because you reckon you've probably clocked up a quarter of a century following and working with, working four at times, sorry, so it's great

you're with us. And the reason I've asked you to come on board of this is because, of course, you've followed Alex's arrival back at Surrey, if you like. And the day that he arrived in the role that he's most recently had for the last 11 years. You remember that quite clearly, don't you? I do. I remember it was announced, and there was a one-day international back at the Kia Oval. And I'd had to come up because I was hosting a lunch with Ricky Ponting, because Ricky Ponting was at Surrey and I can remember I went up to the commentary boxes

just to say hello to a few people and Stewie I think was doing TMS and he came out and he was in a suit and tie and I sort of went up and went, you look very smart and congratulations on the new role and he just looked at me and said now it gets serious

and then just walked off and I thought to myself oh that's different And I just remember thinking, actually, yeah, this is a change now. But at the start, Stuart, it was a tough time to come in, wasn't it? Because I'm sure knowing you, you wanted to sort of make instant changes. But at that time, obviously, it'd been a tough time for the club and the team weren't going well. What are your memories of that when you sort of first came in to the role?

Well, first of what I took it on in a sort of part-time interim role, if you wish to call it that. The club made a decision to say thank you but goodbye to Chris Adams and in Salisbury mid-season, which doesn't happen in cricket too often, it's more of a football thing. But I was already contracted to continue doing some work with three or four. other outlets, BBC being one of them, and I'm not for breaking contracts. So I said, look, I can't go straight in and do it full time, but I will do what I can for the next three months to try and get us back somewhere close to being competitive. And then let's sit down come October, November, to see if I can then take it on full time.

And then, yeah, from was it the 1st of December 13 or the 1st of January 14, that's when I took it on. And, you know, I've said previously, it took three years to get it or shape it as I wanted it. Everyone, you know, whoever does this role, whichever county, when they go in, they're going to observe and not going to rip everything up straight away because one, that is brave and probably silly. but you've also got to make sure, though, that your fingerprints are over the set-up so that if it doesn't work, then this is a big thing which I said to Richard Goulden, Richard Thompson, the chief executive chairman of Surrey at the time, is you've asked me to do it full-time. You know I love Surrey, but please let me succeed or fail doing it my way.

Challenge me along the way, but don't interfere. And I meant that in a respectful way, is that I believe I have a reasonable knowledge, of cricket, probably better knowledge than the two of them, but as I report to both of them, they're entitled to challenge me and ask questions. And they were true to their word. You know, that was a thing. So they allowed me to go in and shape it as I wanted. It took three years, moving some people on, bringing some people in. I was also big on bringing through our players from our age group setup, because I always believe that if you go up wanting to play for your host team or host county, you just give that little bit more.

And the pathway was working very, very well. Garrett Townsend was overseeing that. And there was a good group of young players coming through the likes of Sam Curran, Oli Pope, Ryan Patel. So he could bring them on quite quickly into the setup. And then we just built it from there, really. As I say, a lot of Surrey homegrown players, but I was also able to supplement that with some good players from outside from other counties,

plus the quality of the overseas players. Graham Ford came in as head coach and for what you were trying to do and I think back now for that period and as you say bringing the youngsters through that come through the Surrey system get them playing first team cricket

40 was the perfect man for that time wasn't he 100% and you know I don't mind saying it I actually rang Rob Key before fully appointing 40 just because he'd been captain at Kent and under 40. I knew a lot about 40, you know, playing England v. South Africa and I'd only ever heard good things about it without knowing him well.

So I've checked him with Rob Key and he gave him a glowing report. And, you know, me and Rob have a similar outlook on cricket. So once he'd said what he did, then I did a little bit more homework, then spoke with 40. Yeah, he was spot on for the job. And he helped set it up again for what we're doing now. He'll say, oh, listen, it's happening years ago. But still, some of the things he brought in. and the way he dealt with players, young players and developed players,

I can only thank him. It leads me on though to, and we'll come back to specifics of this journey, which of course, you know, has led to what is just an amazing achievement on winning three successive championship titles, Alec. But I'm just listening to you and listening to the strength of your, you know, your commitment, the way you believe that things should be done in cricket. Yet, you know, our side of the fence, we keep on hearing that this, there's never been a period in the game which has been more turbulent, more change.

I mean, I think you've even referred to as, it's right, players playing for themselves, not for the badge, and that sort of thing, attitudes change, changing. I just wonder, do you ever compromise, and have you found having to compromise, any of your own cricket beliefs, to stay relevant? Yeah, definitely. But it's got tougher in recent years. You know, that, as I think I said, you know, is the name on the back of the shirt worth more than the badge on the front? I've always played for the badge on the front

but because of the amount of options that players have now, go back in time, I was Surrey in England, that was me. I wasn't playing for England and I played for Surrey and if I was with England that was the team when I'd always check the Surrey scores when I came off at lunchtime

or tea time. Nowadays because of the amount of franchise cricket players have a lot of opportunities to be selective and all I ever say is when you win, you want to win with the team and what I still can't get my head around but you have to do to move and stay relevant

in a modern game is there'll be people who play in a big bash they play all the group games their team then gets to the knockout stage of the big bash but that player then has a better offer to go to the ILT20 or the South Africa T20

and they leave and then go and join that team. I know the money is brilliant and as professional cricket as I want players to earn as much money as they can but I also want a system and this is only me trying to live in the perfect world where if you start a tournament with a team

you have to finish it before you can then go off to another tournament so that there is a bit of us, not just me and you are playing, as a say for your 13 or 14 teammates are in that squad. and not just coming in, doing a job for a short time, then going off. I don't know if I explain that well enough.

It's a team game. It's not golf. It's not tennis. It's a team game. So the anecdote, the stories that I even pick up of some players, and you'll tell me this has happened at Surrey or not. You might not want to, but I mean, this isn't the situation I'm talking about. It's somewhere else.

But agent tells players, if you want me to sell and get you. gigs around the world in different places you need to be playing for your strike rate no matter what position your team is in when you go out to bat is that common yeah listen the value and the impact and input

of the analysts in recent times is again will only get greater and there's some really good analysts about we've got an exceptional couple of exceptional ones at our place but it still comes back to you know you can if you score five of sorry 10 or five balls

if my maths is right your strike rate's about 200 but scoring 10 runs isn't going to impact a game so you can use stats as you wish but I do know that some and this will say yes strike rate

of 200 you must sign him and I'll go why what's his high score when has he scored those runs and has how many impactful innings or scores as he made in a winning

cause. So that's how you use the analysts wisely and to say they're highly valuable and valued by management and players, but still use your cricket eyes and your cricket brain when making selections. But how do you

deal with individual players that maybe you suspect haven't gone out there to play for the badge, to play for the team, but to play for the next contract? Have you come across it? Because we We now talk about 11 years, so we don't need to necessarily be specific about names. Have you come across it?

How do you deal with that? No, not in our setup, not at Surrey, I haven't, because we have some whiteball-only contracted players at our place. But we will also pick, yes, on form, but we pick on character personality and what they bring to the team. So that's crucial. I think it's more sort of those people who don't have a home, to use a phrase. And by that, I mean, they are just roving cricketers. They're cricketers on the move. They don't have a base to go back to.

So whether it is an IPL team for seven weeks, then they might have a break, then they'll go, might come across for the T20 blast for a few weeks, then they might go to America, then they might go on to the Caribbean Premier League, then they'll look at a T-10, then they'll go back to Big Bash. It's an ongoing thing.

and because franchise cricket the squad's always changing you might have a nucleus of eight players potentially ten players but everyone goes in with that well we're just here for a short time so building a culture and understanding team and squad camaraderie is pretty tough and also when they go in and sort of just coming to off-field stuff whether it is the medical side of things

whether it is the strength and conditioning side of things the welfare of the player, a lot of these franchises are only interested in this player for the period of time that they're at that competition whereas at counties, we look after them 12 months of the year. You do at the moment, can that carry on the way that it is? In county cricket, and this is, and something else I said last week,

is the ECB, I believe, and again, easy for me to say it, is that any franchise competition during our summer, as in franchise competition elsewhere around the world, apart from the IPL because that's been there for a long time and there is an understanding and agreement there, I personally, if you're a multi-format player, NOC should be declined because you have to value county cricket. And I still believe that whether it's your county or the ECB

have to control the player, not the other way around. Now, if a player chooses to be a whiteball player only, then that's fine. But then that player has to understand that his county then doesn't become his home forever. And then franchise cricket because in county cricket, they're what, 350, 400 pro cricketers, and you'll get a contract. Franchise cricket, you're talking thousands. So if you have one bad competition, someone else comes and takes your place because there's very few multi-year contracts in franchise cricket.

So the security of a long-term engagement isn't there. Short-term game financially, I get it, but you also, I believe, could have a medium and long-term goal and target too. So if the market force is at work, so a player, stroke with agent or whatever, may decide, okay, well, if that's what county, a county cricket club, if that's what's salary, for example, I mean just, just, sorry, for example. Saying to me, actually, to be honest, financially, it might be a bit of a risk, it might be a bit of a gamble, but I'm going to go off on my freelance ways, and it may be successful.

The thing is, what does that do to the quality of the team that you're putting out, to the quality of competition that you get in County Cricket, if the market forces are at work like that? It'll always find players. If people don't want to play for us. I've got enough quality, though. I mean, you know, not being funny, but you're not. You're not. You're not. The new role is about high performance of good enough quality. We'll develop players. It's what we've done. So counties are the duty bound to, one, try and develop their own players. As I keep saying, you supplement it from outside.

But the target is to produce your own. And if players are giving opportunities, they can develop. But if you're just having players, you just pop in for a few games and pop off, is that a good – I'm talking domestic players here, not overseas players. But is that good for the county? and that's the question really and what is right for that county at that time but I'm all about growing a team growing a culture growing a squad and knowing what you're playing for and what you're playing for the three feathers at Surrey do you have any concerns that what you're

achieving and what you're trying to achieve and let's forget the size of the club and let's forget the you know all the talk about the money and everything that Surrey have Do you feel that that's being replicated across 18 first-class counties, that attitude? Every county has a completely different agenda. No two counties are the same. That is the thing. So, as you say, the finances, yet we all live within the salary cap. That's every county.

Do I have a bigger budget for having a marquee and a pre-season tour, for example? Yes, of course I do. And that gives us an advantage. But it's still what you can set up. And then what is deemed success. and this, but I've always said what it's deemed success at one county may be seen differently at another. And by that, I mean, not everyone can win the championship.

Right? That's a given, especially if you're in the second division, you can't. So is it to either stay in the first division, or is it to try and get promotion, or is it to survive and then say, no, the 50 overcomp and the T20, at the two, we've got a real chance to win and competing. or is it no we want to actually produce four players in the next three years have come through our system that should be deemed as success

do we want two of our players to play for England within the next two years that's deemed success but nowadays everyone only ever looks at the trophy cabinet and it's getting very much and has got like football where it's that's it if you don't win move on the coach or the DOC

or get rid of the players start again whereas I believe county cricket is different to football you should be allowed to develop you should be given time to develop as long as you always see progress and that's the one word I've stuck with throughout my time in this role

is if you are making progress you're doing something right if you're standing still or dropping off there's issues if some counties may be a thinking there's no way we can win the county championship

and we all know maybe you know the names that we might be thinking of there should they be more honest with themselves, and should we have a county championship which is made up of fewer teams going forward? In a way, I think that's for those counties to put a hand up and say that. Before they put a hand up, they need to know what the answer's going to be,

which obviously I'm contradicting myself in what I say that, because while everyone gets a handout from the ECB, that the financial handout, that obviously helps every single county, big or small. So if you suddenly go, do you know what, I'm just going to become a whiteball county, what is the financial setup then and how does it work so I'm not saying

counties shouldn't chuck in a red ball game what is right for them that that is a big thing and I know this sounds silly during the COVID lockdown times two or three camps I believe made a profit because we weren't playing which can't be right

so you've got to have a business model and again I'm no businessman but you've got to have a business model that allows you to ideally break even at worst, but also to have a plan where do you want to be on and off the field? And then, once you've worked that out, try and find the answers as to

if someone rang Richard Gould at the ECB and said that we just would become a whiteball team, 50 over and T20, what would the answer be? And I haven't got that answer. I wouldn't have a clue. No, but the way the game is going, should we really be viewing that as not being a sensible and the correct path for them?

It comes down to finances, I believe, and this is why I think the hundred and the sale of the hundred and whatever money's come in, the monies that come and then filter down to the counties and the grassroots level. I just hope that it is done in such a way that that money is for the next 20 or 30 years,

not just for the next two or three. Because if we get it wrong now or a county gets it wrong now, I don't think they'll be able to recover. And there's far more qualified people than me when it comes to business and finances. But that's sort of, from a cricket person going, that's my take, is this money must be invested sensibly

so that there's a long-term view taken, not just, yeah, go on, let's spend it all on players or do this or do that. And then you blow it. And then where'd you go? You're in a bigger hole. You say, you know, you're not a business. But how confident are you that that is what would happen? It would be spent in two or three years, wouldn't it?

as much as you might be that that's my take i've been lucky enough to work with richard gould and richard thompson and they're two highly impressive people in my eyes and once you go to the you know the governing body then yeah you're there to be shocked down because it's easy to criticize people but i seriously believe those two are two excellent individuals and they will have a business plan that would ensure that county cricket stays relevant and stays strong and therefore whatever the finances that come into the game are, have to be ringed fenced and dealt with responsibly. They're easy words, but that's if we all have the county game at heart, which I know the three of us on this call do, then some tough, sensible, intelligent decisions

must be made. Coming up, more on his views on the men's county game, along with colleague Mark Church, on some of those appointments Alec made in order to win the trophies. TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. Mark, the reason obviously that we're talking to Alec is because Alec has been part

of this massively successful Surrey's story, and the story is not over. Not out, Alec and the team want to go for four titles, no on the bounce, having achieved three, which has not been done since 1968. And it's no small thing when Surrey think about that, that it was Yorkshire who did that. That's what makes it so big,

and that's why they want to go for four next year is one of the main reasons. I don't care what Alec tells me. I know that'll be one of the passions. They've got there at Surrey and he's nodding. But Mark, I know, and Alec has alludes to this, you know it's the people he's got and you've been so impressed with you could call them overseas coaches overseas players well i think it's more about

getting the right as alex said about getting the right person in and and if we're talking overseas mornay morkel was an absolute masterstroke obviously kumal sangakara coming to the club hashimamla and you know we've seen what keemar roach has done for sarah as well But how much is it about that as well? Yeah, brilliant cricketers, but also the person and then buying into what you were doing at Surrey. The quality of the player is easy to see. It's a quality of the person in that dressing room on the training ground,

how they are helping and developing our players, helping and improve the culture, showing people how to do things to be the very best version of themselves. and the three or four you just mentioned they have it in spades they are wonderful cricketers but even better people and the good thing about it is they

they all got Surrey straight away and whenever they are in London they come down to see us I mean you've seen Kumar is obviously doing some country work on TV and things but every opportunity he comes to the Oval you know Ricky Ponzi was only with us

with six weeks but he still talked fondly of his time there and then Hash, you know, exchange you mess with him two days ago. Once you've been a part of Surrey, and there'll be other counties saying exactly the same, but once you become a part of Surrey, you stay a part of it.

And we're just saying two younger lads have chosen to turn down a contract, the new contract, to try and get more opportunities at another county or two for next summer. They both cried their eyes out at the awards evening because they're leaving a special place, but they've also been told and they know they want to come back just to watch

come in the dress room and say hi they would be very very welcome and that's the bit we're proud of yes we love the trophies and providing players for England but at the same time we'd like to create the place where people can call it home the other thing with that is

players want to come back and I'm thinking Ricky Clark and Dominic Sible you know Rick goes away goes for Warwick year always wanted to come back to play for Surrey exactly the same with with Dom Sibley and and you know those two coming back had a massive impact but you could just see how pleased they were

to be back at the club as well and again two players that started in the under eight or under nines so that's what I talk about earlier when I talk about when you grow up wanting to play for a team or wanting to play for a county it means that much more with Ricky Clark I wanted him back as soon as I, as soon as I got back in the role. So I love Clarkie and he's such been, you know, being a brilliant cricketer and he left and if he had his time again or things were different, he wouldn't have gone in the first place, but it was right that he left when he did. He had a dodgy couple of three years, then did very, very well at Warwickshire.

But once I could get him back, I did. So that was, you know, very pleased to have him back and he played a massive role in the 2018 championship success. And then with Dom Sibley, you know, I went on a... I was far from happy that he left because I knew he would play but I just couldn't give him guarantees but he did the right thing for him

and that was the important thing he backed himself to go somewhere else and play more and I know year one at Warwickshire he thought he'd made a wrong decision but it proved to be the right decision because he then went on to play for England while he was at Warwickshire

but I also knew he only lives five minutes from me here I always knew he would come back and he knew that as well so again when we brought it back a couple of years ago it was yep you're returning home well done what you did at Warwickshire, well done that you played for England when at Warwickshire, but now you come back home and you will have a big impact which he's having.

It's drawing my mind to the fact that for many counties though, Alec, they'll bring players through as you've done and that I think is why even though I think deep down you you quite like the idea of the people think well that's typical Surrey for you and all that sort of stuff but actually they've grown to love Surrey for the way that you've gone about your business, the way you've brought players through the way you've gone about winning the championship. It hasn't been about chucking the money out there entirely, of course

as we say, you know, you have got more money than most and that brings me to this problem for county cricket that I'm looking at the under 19 squad that that's just been announced and of course there's emphasis at the moment on Pace and a lot of Pays bowlers. A lot of those players playing for the teams that are considered

the smaller teams, the smaller counties in the country and I know that they're supposedly thinking all that's well and good are really please for them but give it another year they'll be off to somebody else who can pay them more money who can look after them a little bit better and surely that is one of the big

problems of which I haven't got an answer I'm not so sure anybody has got an answer but it is a problem isn't it? A massive problem and that's why I haven't got the exact word in front of it but it needs to be either compensation or a transfer fee because it costs a lot of money

just say a player don't care where, name your county, Lester that produced a player from the age of eight come all the way through, gets to 20, 21, 22 they've had 14 years investing, coaching time, man, hours developing that player

and then he lets his contract run down and someone comes in for him. I'm not just talking 5 or 10 grand. I'm saying the county that is invested time must be rewarded properly. That's financial rewarding, but what

about a supporter that might think, well, you know, the money's all well and good, but I wanted them to stay with this because I wanted to see my team being successful. I won't get that just because it's cutthroat professional sport. If a contract runs out, then that's fine because you've got to allow players move. But that is why I say, whether it's a transfer fee or whether it's a compensation fee, but it needs to be a serious number because of you work that 10, 12, 14 years worth of coaching, man hours, etc., etc. That adds up. And therefore, the count. The count. you can just go and nab a player and pay next to nothing,

which I think is wrong. You must reward those counties. You refer to the fact that yourself, a massive pedigreeks compared with myself and churchy, for heaven's sake. But you've put all three of us as people who love county cricket. Every year I feel I'm fighting a losing, losing battle in a room full of people who love cricket. I will sometimes feel like the lone voice who speaks up for county cricket.

You mix in much more influential circles. You've talked about the fact the main. just maybe in the future. There might be still some role, ECB, England-wise, for you. People listen to you for obvious reasons. But do you find it's more and more difficult speaking to the likes of Rob Key, Brenda McCullum, England management as a cricket level

to tell them that county cricket has got a worth? It has to be relevant. Therefore, the words that whoever, whether it's the people you just mentioned or others, have to respect county cricket. So whoever gets picked, say, upper level at international level that's fine that's down to the selectors the coaches the captain and that's how it's always been and always should be and there have been some you want to call them

left field picks which again is absolutely fine but without county cricket being strong where do england get their players from and that is what i keep saying i want england to be the best in the world in all formats also want surrey to be the best county in the country in all formats and every other county doc or head coach will say the same so we've got to make sure that stays relevant and it's also respected and it comes back to those NOCs that we're talking about for other franchise cricket during the summer. If we just

allow players to go off when they want then the quality of county cricket drops and then we'll see England cricket drop. We can almost look at it as you know I'm a big fan of football Gareth Southgate when he was manager and previous managers and know Gareth well

he'll go to watch a game and he might only be watching five England players or players who are qualified to play for England because the rest are Europeans or international players from elsewhere and therefore we've got to look past just the here and now and that's what I'm talking about is making sure that the county system remains strong but we also make sure that our best players play county cricket in our summer. Is it strong right now, Alec? Yeah I think it's

competitive. The quality of overseas player is less so over, you know, if you go back when there was nothing in our summer, in the rest of the world, you'd get your top class, world-class overseas stars coming to play for a full six months or five months. That just doesn't happen now. So the quality overseas, you can get some who come in and go off. They're still very good, don't get me wrong, but you don't get the regular world-class overseas players because of, as I say, the scheduling. But I still think it's highly competitive. I think it's very, very good. Very good indeed.

And you can persuade or reaffirm with some of those individuals I mentioned or any England member of England management, whether they be off-field on the field about county championship, they can respect county championship, but they might say, yeah, we respect it, but we'll respect it even more if it's much reduced, fewer games, fewer teams. Is that not the direction of travel? I get all that and hear that,

and obviously had the Strauss report a few years ago, and things, you know, the Cougaburra ball I've tried out there there, but if there are fewer teams, and we've seen it a little bit with 100, where do the people go and watch? If there's no cricket, say, it's Somerset, and they always should be because they're

brilliant you run club with great fans and members, but just say you take it down at 10 teams, as you're saying, or just look at a hundred set up and just say they're going to be the teams that play all formats. Now, people from Devon drive up to Taunton to watch. If the closest

this team then becomes Birmingham, are they going to go and watch? If you reduce the number of teams, the quality, yes, it probably does improve, but then if those players go off to play franchise cricket or international cricket, what's underneath? I don't misread things too thinly, but I believe 14 games in the championship is the right number.

And I have altered a little bit at one time I was thinking, should we get it 12? But no, and even this summer, you know the first round was completely washed out and then this last round was rain in truck now we we don't want the English weather's ever going to do but if you took that down a 10

then you lose two games is eight games enough I don't think it is because you have to play to get better I'm all for training practicing resting as well and there isn't enough rest the schedule is too crowded right now

but players have to play because that's where you learn most and if all of a sudden you're only batting 12 times in red ball cricket 14 times in red ball cricket you're not learning enough even your your muscle memory for repetitive shots etc won't be there so i'm a big advocate of 14 games but this schedule is not right you're known as the gaffer are they are the england management listening to the gaffer do you feel you're being heard we all work to different agendas that is i love rugby you know i've got on really well with him. The only thing I think we've ever

disagreed on is this Cookaburrubour ball. We are very aligned in our thinking, both in what cricket should look like and what a player looks like. And he's, you know, as he's been there as the O.C of English cricket, he's done a great job. McCullum has come in and

people are talking about English cricket. You know, we can all talk about is that the right way to play, is it not? And whenever he does step down, what will the next coach want to do? But people are enjoying watching a cricket. But also, some people's roles are for the here and now. Then have you also got the vision to look past the here and now

so that we're still talking fondly about the county game and what it does to help making them the best side? Is it true that when you're involved in meetings with Rob Key, he always makes sure that he comes to you at the end so that everybody else doesn't feel intimidated by what you've said as your answer. Is that true or not? You'd have to ask him that. Well, no, you know whether you're the first or last to be asked in meetings.

It's only, listen, have I got a loud voice? Yeah, you've just had to listen to me for the last half hours. Now, I'm in a position, and it probably sounds arrogant, but I hope it doesn't. I'm lucky enough to have a voice that may be listened to, just because I've been around a long time. I'm old now, but I'm experienced and I'm prepared to call it as I see it, and I won't get everything right, far from it. But at least I'll offer a thought, offer an opinion,

and also speak up if I believe something is wrong. So say this Cougarborough ball, go on, we're on it, please you will listen and ring me. I don't see why we're playing with it. Again, I talk about integrity of the competition when we won't play international cricket in England with a Cookerborough ball. You might play three home games with a Cooker and one away, or vice versa.

All I've said, and I said it again the last week, I think it was, is if they are adamant that the Cucca Burrubour ball is a way forward in county cricket, then use it for the whole tournament but give everyone a year's notice so that we can plan a school. accordingly because even those people were advocates

of the Cucabarra ball and I'm talking head coaches and DOCs having now used it two in April

and two at the back end the summer I haven't found anyone who says yeah can we increase that

number they will just say it's a terrible ball and it produces poor cricket the counter is

yet spin is used more well it's because it does nothing else for the

quicker bowlers and if it says it will produce quicker bowlers. It doesn't. I'm adamant that you don't produce a quick bowl. You can either bowl quick or you can't.

I use the analogy, so no apologies for repeating myself. You don't turn a marathon runner into Usain bowl. It's the pitch is not the ball. The ECB must be stricter on the pitch. It's the quality of the pitch. And don't take the shortcut of using another type of ball. Should we see Dan Wurrell in an England shirt next year? If you're picking your best tea, he gets in it

because he is the most highly skilled bowler in the country. Am I in favour of him playing? Well, it means he's not playing for Surrey. But I'm about England winning. I have to accept it again, you know, should you be allowed to play for two countries in your career? The regulations are there. So he's not breaking any rules or regulations.

He's entitled to play for England, and he wants to play for England, and he's turning England into his home. but as a quality of bowler he's the best sounding I've made you know that's how highly I rate him and you only have to speak not just to our players but the opposition players

he is almost on another level because he can bowl with good pace he can bring his pace back but his skill levels apart from Jimmy Anderson in recent times I haven't seen a more skilled bowler Alec difficult for you I know to answer this question but are you

proud, how proud are you of your 11 years as director of cricket at Surrey? Very proud because of what we, underline the word we have achieved, because of not just the last three years either. I enjoy seeing our players

develop because use the term, our coach Garretti used a ton, reach for the stars, go off and fly. Because everyone wants to play international cricket. They want to play franchise cricket. They want to earn money but they want to win for Surrey as well. So if we can help give the individuals a little bit of a nudge up

so that they can start achieving what they want to do and then as a team win championships and a win three and three, win it in 18 is massive because we haven't won it since the Adam-Hollioke era. Then to win it in 18 was massive for the club, but now to have won it three and three shows that all the hard work that all of us have put in, we're getting rewarded, have been rewarded.

want to stop. That's a good thing about it. We had the awards evening at the start of October and the captain Rory Burns and the coach Gareth Batty said we don't want to stop. We don't know if we'll win but our attention of detail, our work ethic and our desire will only get better because if we stand still, we allow the other counties to get closer to us and we want to try and keep that gap. Again, easier said than done but the work ethic and the prep that goes into it, will ensure that when the boys walk out onto the field, they're ready to go. You're all about cricket, you're all about people.

You, Lynn, the family, in all families who are having to live with and cope with cancer. Our love goes to you all, Alec, of course, and I know yours as well to all the other families as well, who will perhaps even be listening in. Putting cricket into context, we love it, but there are many, many more important things, and I think you've

shown us the way on that as well, and thank you very much for your time. No, thanks, Kevin. Thanks for your support of the county game as well. Churchy, you know I love you. Well, many thanks to Alex Stewart and to Mark Church for their time. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed to keep up to dates with everything happening at the Women's T20 World Cup

and the men's test tour of Pakistan.