Test Match Special - Ashes Daily: Atherton catches up with McGrath

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

Jonathan Agnew brings together one of the greatest Ashes rivalries for a catch up.Michael Atherton and Glenn McGrath join Aggers in the Test Match Special commentary box at The Oval. They discuss the battles they used to have on the pitch and McGrath getting the wicket of Atherton 19 times in Ashes cricket.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. Watch highlights of every day of every test on IPlayer I'm Jonathan Agnew and welcome to this bonus episode of the Ashes Daily podcast In this programme we reunited two players involved in one of the great England-Australia rivalries Income, sir, the last to the end of Atherton and probably the end of England

Very well bowed by Glenn Magr, 28 for two You must watch McGraw bowling here to Atherton as a snorter and is caught behind Oh my word, what a delivery that was Glenn McGrath has missed Michael Atherton 19 times in the ashes a record for any bowler against a batsman in test cricket. And during the fifth test of the Oval,

we brought them together. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm quite making forward to this. We very rarely have a visit from Mike Atherton in this box and it's lovely to see you, Mike. It's very nice to be here, I guess. Are you sure?

Well, given that Glenn McGrathar is on my left. I feel a ritual humiliation coming on. Well, not from me. I'm seemingly going to sit here and just referee it. I thought we're just chatting about, you know, Stuart Broad's retired, how we came about retiring ourselves. We've done that, thank you, Dan. No, this

as we all, look, we talked about Stuart Broad and David Warren, haven't me? I think I think it's 17 times that currently stands. Yes, he's getting into record. It can only become 18, which sadly will not take him to the top of the top. At 19. So this is one of the great confrontations, isn't it?

And I actually, Mike, I've done some theatre with Glenn. And I've rather stood up for you because they've very cruelly played at all 19 dismissals in a minute with the countdown music going. And you can say, it's done chronologically. Only a minute's worth. No, no, they've got about an hour's worth out of it.

No, no, they crammed it in. It's a full, it's, I mean, it's chaos. And it started with a conference. looking youngish Mike Atherton and it ends with slightly haggard and slightly broken and broken is about right

actually but you can see the progression but I stood up for you because you're an opening batsman you're facing a great fast bow with a new ball I mean the odds are in his favour you've got to start from nothing

I don't know whether the odds are in his favour but I played against Australia a lot and in fact I was looking the other day because you know my colleagues in the television box keep continually putting up the David Warner statistic,

not because they don't like David Warner, but because they know I'm all over that graphic, having got out 19 times to the man on my left, but also 17 times to Courtney Walsh and Curley Ambrose. Both of them? My only defence, and I offer this in mitigation slightly, is that I think out of 115 tests that I played, about 85 or so were against Australia, South Africa or West Indies.

Oh, that is unlucky. So it was just a period of time where you played five test match series against some pretty good teams and pretty good bowling attacks. Donald Pollock, obviously McGar, Gillespie, whoever, Walsh and Ambrose. Now, I'm not complaining about that at all. That is test cricket and it was fantastic and I wouldn't change it for a minute. But the difference I was trying to talk to my colleagues about was that against Walsh and Ambrose,

they dismissed me a lot. I felt I got my share of runs and I had my share of successes and I didn't feel that against Glenn and that's why I was pretty broken at the end of it in that final series. 2001 was my last game here and Glenn got me out for the final time

19th time and I wandered off and I was done. I was obviously done. I'm interested in what you said though about not feeling that he starts with the upper hand because he's got a new ball he's fresh. The bowler can run up and and he can be bang on the money from the first ball. You're walking out, you've been,

you've probably thrown your pads on, you might have been in the field for a day. You don't feel like that. You don't feel defeated. Well, you shouldn't feel defeated now. It may be that by the end of 2001, you know, when it came to the 18th or 19th time, I was starting off with some rather negative thoughts in my head.

But certainly at the outset, you know, as an experienced and pretty successful opening back, batter, I was confident in doing well. And in fact, the first time I played against Glenn was at Brisbane in 94-5. Didn't have a great game, did you? No, and was dropped and came back at Perth. And in that series, I think I got more than 400 runs in an Ashes series, which as an opener and captain is not a bad return.

But it was a gradual decline, really, you know, because we would play against Australia every two years and because it's a five test match series, if you get out a few times, And it's a kind of gradual turning of the screw. Yeah. Did you feel, Glenn, turn it around from our thing to Michael, but did you feel that you started with a bit of an advantage with a new ball and everything ready to go and a feel of hostility and the fast bowler inside you and the competitive edge

and everything else that you had? Well, the opening bowler's job is to dismiss the opening batsman. The opening batsman's job is to see the opening bowlers off. So it's always going to be that battle and that competition there. So early on, my first test at the Gabba against my first Ashes test, everyone had been saying you've got to have a consistent out-swinger if you're going to be successful at test level. I wanted to be successful at test level.

I'd only played a handful of games. Started by on big outies, couldn't control it, and finished with the figures of none for 120 on, and didn't play the next three games. But then came back, and it was probably a good learning experience then, just about hitting the deck. You know, bowl wire got picked, good areas. You know, hit the deck, good bounce, a bit of seam movement.

And off you go and went to, I got picked in the last test of that series because Damien Fleming had hurt his shoulder. He'd been bowling quite well. And I got another run. So in that last test, I think I picked up three wickets in each innings. And I think if we remember the highlights, a couple of rubbish deliveries down, leg side. There was extra bounce at the wacker.

But I remember it's ironic this, because I remember that first game at the Gabba and facing Glenn and, you know, none for a hundred and odd, as he said, and dropped for the next game. And I thought, well, we won't be seeing very much of him again. And he did come back at the whack, and was a much more challenging proposition, as he said, when he stopped trying to become an out-swing bowler.

He could swing the ball, but he wasn't principally a swing bowler. He was an aggressive hit the pitch. Drop the length a little bit? Bowler, yeah, just short of a length, close into the stumps, any movement he'd find it off the pitch. And with that kind of extra bounce that you never felt quite confident that you could get forward to. So always, you know, hitting the splice of the back, challenging the bottom, you know, your right index finger. And I think at Perth from memory, I'd, you know, tickle one down the leg side off the glove. But that uncomfortable height, and in the early days, I have to say, pretty.

sharp, you know, by 2001 and a bit late sharp. You were, I wouldn't say, you were kind of slightly medium pace, but I don't mean that, you know, dismissively. But in 95, and then when you went to the Caribbean the following winter, I would say you were, I don't know, what kind of pace would you be at, you'd be clocking 90, wouldn't you? Well, I like to think so. I want to, don't pick him up. Don't pick him up.

I'll take it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was definitely sharp. And then the next time we came against each other was 97 Ashes, and it was the first time I'd really played over. First test, again, we didn't bowl well. We got beaten by 10 wickets. I think Nassar and Thorpey scored some good runs.

And the next day, we went out, and Jeff Marshall was our coach. We bowled for two hours off our long run, bowling the right length. And then went to Lords. And Lords is one of my favorite places to play. But I think back then the Duke cricket ball felt small in the hand, big seam and bowling in English conditions I just love so some of those dismissals that we saw

they're just jumping off a length they're nasty delivery you did well to actually get something on it but it was a good attack you know Glenn Jason Gillespie who at that stage in 97 was sharp as well and we kind of zip the ball off the pitch he had the ball doesn't

gather pace off the pitch at all but Jason was one of those bowlers that you felt it just kind of horrid you off the pitch then obviously Shane won and you know it was a pretty good attack yeah I wonder

going back to the Wacker game when Glenn's recalled did you suddenly think this bloc's different I thought that's exactly what I felt having been you know slightly dismissive at the Gabba thinking well we won't see much of him again

at the Wacker I thought well this guy is a serious bowler he's going to be around for a long time and I'm going to be coming up against him because that was the thing every two years and after that game at the Wacker Australia under Mark Taylor went to the Caribbean.

And the West Indies were still the world champions at this stage. Great team, of course. And Australia beat them there. You had a particularly good series. How many wickets did you get in that series? I got 17, 17, but it was the first time I took a five wickets in an innings and sort of felt like I contributed to the team. And I think we took on the West Indies.

The game plan was to actually bounce their bowlers, which had probably never happened before. So it was a combination of those things, and it just went from there. And that was the start of Australia's, period of dominance really for the next well until 2005 when england beat them here in that great series you know they were they were the champion team when did it start to gnaw away at you then because and again being fair that minute there were some horrible bulls in there there were some you've got some brutes not particularly 97 although i would have i can't remember how many times i got out in 97 but then we went to australia in in in for the 98-99 season series. And again, it sounds like I'm making excuses here, which I certainly don't mean to and don't intend to, you know. It's not a place to make excuses. But it was a series when I look back and think I should not have played physically. I had five cortisone injections the day before the Gabba test. I don't know whether you remember. We went to Darwin for a game. Oh, that's right. And we played a four-day game up there. And the rule that we had then in the England team was that unless you played the game before the test match, you you wouldn't be available for the test match.

Wouldn't last no, would it? No, I couldn't move at this stage. My back had completely locked up, but I played in this game simply because if I didn't play in that game, I couldn't play at the Gabba. So I played in this game, batted at eight or something, didn't field, and then went to hospital and had five cortisones in my back

before that test match. And in fact got through, but I was not really at full fitness. Not mobile. But that's when it started to get on top, you know, I was getting out a lot in that series. And then, you know, as I say, it's a cumulative process then. And, you know, the slipfielders are constantly reminding you of it,

as you'd expect. And it was tough, yeah. No escape. No, no escape. And was he having a bit of a chunter as well? We always felt that when he was chuntering, that was a very good sign for us. generally when he was on top

which was usually he didn't say very much at all he was in a kind of zone and would just get back to his mark I mean he never smiled or past pleasantries but it wasn't Merv Hughes style cricket you know but if he was chuntering

that was usually a sign that we were on top a little bit and it was a very good sign if he started to yeah does that sound familiar pig? Yeah probably yeah it was the batsmen were there and it was a good way to let off a bit of sort of frustration, I guess you could say. I'd sort of set myself what I want to achieve.

And it was always to bowl the perfect game where every ball went exactly where I went, wanted it to. And if it didn't and he scored some runs off me, then I'd get a bit frustrated. And you could have a bit of a chat to the Patsman and get it out of your system and come back. And half the time I was talking to myself walking back to the top of my mark. So probably in a way, probably true. Because when I'm in, you know, when you're bowling well and you're happy, it's just all flowing

and it's fine. I probably didn't say a great deal then. So he's probably right. And the other thing is that you know, in combination with Shane Warren often, you know, after you got over the new ball, if you got over the new ball, always start the session with Warner McGraw. And they were

locked in for an hour. And even if you didn't get out, you weren't clicking along at a decent run rate. There was constant pressure there. It was a it was a high-class team we were playing against. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because you had,

you mentioned Walter and Ambrose, two quick bowlers. Brilliant bowlers as well. Is it a different kind of thing having a spinner at one end and a quick bowler at the other? Well, not just any old spinner. No.

The best trainer that's probably ever played, ever played the game. And two, although very different bowlers, obviously one leg spinner, one quick bowler, similar in mentality in that they hated giving away runs. they were attacking bowlers

but almost with a I don't mean a defensive mindset might be the wrong way of putting it but they did not like to give away runs and they would pile that pressure on and eventually it would tell and so when that pressure is coming from both ends people always think about batting partnerships

but when you're bowling with somebody and they're applying that similar amount of pressure as well maiden after made and after maiden it's hard work Yeah, and that's how you operated. Well, it is. And, you know, John Buchanan always said, if you bowl three maiden overs in a row,

the chance of getting a wicket goes up. And I think the fact that Shane and myself had really good control that allowed us to set more aggressive fields, which might seem a little bit defensive that, you know, the areas were bowling. But if, you know, if the batsman made a mistake, then generally they were out.

Now, they were pretty handy slipfielders as well. So you've got warning at the other end who thinks you can win the game from any situation. He's going to get the batsman out every ball. So, yeah, it was, and, you know, we're generally in a pretty good position because of the team that we had, probably had nine, minimum nine match winners in the team. So it was an era that was pretty good. It's a great combination, isn't it? It's the greatest leg spinner that's ever played the game.

And I was looking at the numbers the other day of quick bowlers who've taken more than 200 test wickets, only four have a better average than the man on my left. and that's Marshall, Garner, Ambrose and Fred Truman, and that's it. So you're looking at the absolute best of the best here. So, yeah. Were you the sort of bats and Mike who, well, like Boycott kept a little black book and sort of made notes and just little things that you picked up from, not just him obviously, but from everybody? Were you one of those?

Not really. No. I always, throughout my whole career really, until I came up against, Glenn. And I remember Bobby Simpson, who coached Lancashire, was coach of Australia, but coach Lancashire as well. I remember chatting to him about this issue. And he just said at the end of it, it was not particularly helpful advice, by the way, but he just said at the end of the day, everybody reaches their natural level of incompetence. Is that what he said? And throughout my whole career, I always was very, very confident in my defensive technique and my ability to

stay at the crease. So even if it was very tough and you're in a bit of a bad trot, I always had confidence that I could stay at the crease and in the end the runs would come. And my problem against Glenn was that that didn't happen.

You know, I couldn't find a way of getting over the new ball and obviously in the end that's bad news. I suppose same question for you. I mean, do you have mental notes in your mind of the bats and the bowl at? Not really. I could remember when I had

400 tests wickets, so I could remember in order and picture how they got out. All 400? Yeah. And but my goal was taking wickets. And whether it's opening bathroom or number 11, my motivation was taking wickets. So you could literally

I could say 167 and you know exactly who it was and you know. I used to but you're getting on now. You're getting on now. I'm getting on now. But that seems incredible. So yes. That's quite forensic. Just my motivation. But back then that was before sort of video footage and what have you. By the end of my career, you'd sit down,

you'd go through every bowler, every batsman. Even if you hadn't come up against them before, you could see how they played, where their strengths were, where the weakness, how they got out before, where they bowled bad balls. Yeah, these things, so there's no secrets anymore. But cricket's a psychological game. The mental side of the game is massive.

And certain batsmen get it over bowlers, certain bowlers get it over batsmen. And I think sort of, you know, after a while, it probably got it got there with others and myself because the areas I bowled and you look at where Ambrose and Walsh bowl it's probably not dissimilar areas

and it was just one of those things The TMS podcast How to Win the Ashes The Untold Stories of Three Key Ashes series is available now on BBC Eye Player Just why are Are there so many cricket murder mysteries? I think the best way to explain it is as an evolving human drama,

a contest between two teams that with each ball bowled by the bowling team to the batting team shifts the narrative in some way. Listen to the cricket and crime episode of She Done It with special guest Andy Zaltzman, available now on BBC Sounds. The best place I reckon I've seen Glenbowl is Lords because that slope just... Fantastic bowler at lords. Suited him. All the best line bowlers come from the pavilion end.

So if you think, well, certainly the ones I played against, Pollock, Glenn, Ambrose came in from that pavilion end. They're not swing bowlers. They're just trying to basically bowl about a fourth stump line or, you know, in the words of the great man, the corridor of uncertainty. And the slope would naturally bring it back and challenge the stumps. But if it didn't, it forced you to play at balls. They were a little bit wider and obviously brought the slip. cord and interplay. I don't know what Glenn's record is at Lords, but it's an outstanding, an outstanding record. And of course, the 2005 team, our excellent team in 2005, found him

just as difficult on that ground as well. Yeah. You'd put that on your back pocket? Oh, Lord's was, it was like a ground made for my bowling. Yeah, that slope. You bowled just outside off stop. Some would hold their line and others would pitch and come down the slope. So you felt like you had to play the delivery. Yeah. And you can't get forward to it. I mean, there's no question of trying to No, and in fact, I remember vividly the 2005 game, which had retired by then, obviously, I was working in the media. I remember walking around the side of the ground, and I got to the mound stand, and I was sideways on,

just as Kevin Peterson came into bat, and he played pretty well at Lords, and obviously played brilliantly in that series. And he was the one player who managed to kind of get forward. He's a tall man, and he had quite high hands. I remember watching him, thinking, well I just couldn't quite get forward like that to Glenn and I think he whacked you over long on didn't he for a six

oh it's a slow ball but yeah had to be but um and I just thought then I eye you know this the balance of power might just shift here we've got a player who can maybe take this guy on yeah so when did the psychological stuff start to happen then when you saw him in the morning thought okay well no I mean never like that you know always look somebody in the eye And, you know, you'd go out there and think you're going to do all right.

But I think by the last series that I played, 2001, I knew it was going to be my last series because I got to, I'd got 150 against Essex, I think, just before that series. And again, I'd gone in the back. And I went to see the surgeon that I saw regularly, and he put another cortisone in, and he said, that's your last one. Right.

And they lasted usually about five months. so I knew that I was done at the end of that series and obviously by the time I got here although I didn't tell anybody I knew it was my last test and by that stage you know I was gone really but I think before until that series until the midpoint of that series I would always I was always going out you know with a thought I'm going to do all right

it just never quite happened but these days of psychologists and psychoanalyst. Well, it's very interesting. We didn't particularly have that. I think, I mean, the slight puzzle for me was always that I did pretty well against Sean Pollock, who's a high-class bowler himself. I've got a lot of runs against Pollock and Donald. And I would say Pollock was a very similar bowler to Glenn.

He was very tight into the stumps, high arm, pretty sharp early on, very similar. And so the puzzle was always for me, well, I'm doing all right against this guy, runs against this guy, why can I get runs against that guy? And I think now, although it's very difficult because the moment you start to say, I need a bit of help here, you know, with a psychologist or a coach or whatever, you're kind of admitting to yourself that you're in trouble, which professional sportsmen found very hard to do,

and I certainly found very hard to do. But I think... Do you think it's our generation that think that? I think possibly because we came from a generation that didn't have coaches and support staff around you. It was very much sort yourself out. Yes. And you have to be self-sufficient in the game.

As you know, it's an individual game within a team framework. And bat in hand, ball in hand, nobody else can help you. So you've got to be able to be self-sufficient. However, I think looking back now, you know, if I had my time again, and of course it's the great dream, isn't it, to have the wisdom of a 50-year-old in an 18-year-old's body. If only we could all do that in sport. But I think if I had my time again now,

I would open up to somebody and say, look, I need a bit of help here, whether it's technically or psychologically and try and get through it rather not on my own, just on my own, try and get a bit of help. Or you could have basballed him. Could have basballed him, could a rundown

and smid, and I wouldn't have done any worse. Well, I couldn't have done any worse. So the reverse ramp, I'm afraid, was not in my repertoire, sadly, back then. I mean, it's extraordinary. How do you sort of talk stuff through? Do you reminisce fondly of it? I remember the last week at here and, you know,

and I remember Athas nicking it, walking off. And it was probably the only time of my career when I nearly felt sorry for a passbacker, okay? But off he goes. And then we both end up in the commentary box. And for years, I don't think we mention it. And every time we caught up with each other, I'll say good-day,

having a bit of a chat, everyone around us in the commentary. It would bring it up. But it wasn't the talk. I mean, you know, time. time passes, it's a long time retired. I don't look back, well, I certainly don't look back fondly at these things. This kind of ritual humiliation is not a nice

thing. But it's happened and you can't change it. And it's quite interesting to talk about it from time to time because you recognize all your weaknesses. And it actually reminds you as a commentator or a pundit how difficult the game is. That's a good point. And it is very important

not to forget how difficult the game is. Or at least how difficult some of us found the game. You know, when you, the man to my left is one of the best of all time. It's probably not that difficult a game, but I think it helps as a commentator to remember that because, you know, we'll pass our eye over Johnny Berstar having a tough time with the gloves or whoever it may be, Warner and Broad, and you just remember how it is. And it's not a bad thing to remember that from time to time. And we didn't really talk about, but last Asher series in Australia, down in Hobart, I think we caught up, we had dinner together and that was the first

time we discussed it. So we went a fair way through our career. That's really nice. And how did that come about? How did the conversation go? I mean, did you actually sort of open up about it? It's not that I kind of tried to avoid the conversation. It's just really that unless kind of I'm asked in a scenario like this while you're asking questions, I genuinely do not cast my mind back to my career at all. I've moved on and I thoroughly enjoy and love watching the game and talking about it. But I don't live in the past, and I don't, I never, I don't have any memorabilia in my house. I don't think about my career at all unless I'm asked in this kind of environment. So it's not a deliberate decision not to go there.

It's just that that's how I am. I've kind of moved on. Yeah. But it's, how important it's a psychological part of the game when you come to test level. And we talk about basball and I love basball and that sort of backing yourself and playing without fear. the only issue I have, it's like they're trying to take all, you know, pressure off the players at all. Like there's no, so take off that mental edge.

And that's the only thing I don't agree with when it comes to basketball because you need your players to be mentally strong and to win the psychological battles. If you're trying to dismiss the psychological part of the game, that's what's missing out. I don't know if it's next generation or whether we're dinosaurs and that's why we work. because I grew up on a farm and you never, if you had a problem, you didn't mention it anyway, you just harden up or sort it out yourself and off you go. And we've seen, you know, farmers in Australia, you know, there was one stage where, you know, a farm was committing suicide on a daily basis because of the droughts and everything else.

So it goes to show we need to open up more, but that generation we didn't. This generation, obviously, is totally different. Has a game changed that much that you can play without sort of the pressure or the psychological I know that's probably stretching the imagination quite a bit because they'll still have their own what they want to achieve in the psychological part of the game but it's like they're trying to take all pressure away. I like players performing under pressure

and they improve and they see what they can handle and what they can achieve. I don't know whether there are similarities in other sports or not. You know, if you're talking about this battle that one person, a bowler gets over a batter or the other way around. You know, we've seen it in this series with Broad and Warner. I don't know whether there are.

are comparable things in other sports like that. You know, in football or rugby, I can't really think of the same, where the focus is on the individual coming up against his opposite number within a team game. I can't really think of the top of my head. So cricket and test cricket in particular, there is a kind of cruel element to it. And again, it just goes back to not forgetting how that is

and how difficult the game is. Would you have benefited, what would you have made of, sort of McCullum Stokes approach? And I don't mean reverse ramps and that stuff, but I mean just, as Glaman's kind of saying there, just sort of freeing up psychologically that fear of failure. Well, first of all, I've been a huge fan of what they've done,

Ben Stokes and Brendan McCollum. I was down under two years ago, watching England's side that was kind of a little bit bit frightened of its own shadow, you know, an England side that turned down a pretty getable run chase against New Zealand at Lords 12 months before that. I felt a change needed to come and I believe in time Ben Stokes will go down as one of our very best England captains. That remains to be seen is that there's a lot ahead who knows what's going to happen but I've been so impressed with the way that he's led this England team

and some of the cricket that we've seen both in this series and in the last 12th. months. If England, say England don't win here, lose the game, whatever, and lose the series, it's not going to invalidate Basball over the last 12 months. It's been an astonishing transformation. I can't think of a transformation that I've seen where

a team has gone from winning 1 in 17 to 11 in 12, 11 in 15 now, whatever it is, with virtually the same set of players. It's not as though they've completely revamped the team. So these players are walking taller than they did, and

that is the effect of the Stokes-McCullum leadership. So fundamentally, I've been thrilled with what I've seen. Do you get what they've done? I do. I do. I do. And it would be, well, A, you have to have the game for it. I mean, Ben Stokes, before the start of this series, was asked pointedly, wasn't he?

I think somebody actually put the question to him, would players like Alistair Cook? And I think my name was mentioned, Mike Atherton, make your team? And I think he said no, pretty much. Now, that's all well and good, I think. As captain, the wins and losses go against your name. You must choose the players that you believe are going to give you the best chance of success, and that's the way he wants to go.

I do believe there is a place. I think Alistakuk was one of our great opening batsman, and I do believe there is a place for Alistakut in an England side because, you know, he wasn't a blocker. He was a different type of player, but he scored. runs, plenty of them had a decent lick and played in some

very, very good England sides. So I wouldn't discount players like that. I think the beauty of Test cricket is that it incorporates all types, all different types. But the way England are trying to play, get on the front foot and play a pressing

game is much more preferable to the England side of two years ago that didn't even contemplate a run chase at Lords. I think there were people who would say, here to that very loudly out there in radio land. Didn't you, just the last thought, didn't you bowl it Mike the other day?

This morning. This morning. Three, three, very soft deliveries with a kind of, not even a hard ball. Did you give him a bit of a bit of a touch? Well, I think I left one, missed one block one. So I'm improving. I'm improving.

I think it was you left one and then you intentionally missed one and then you block one. And he passed balled too. He came down the deck and said, I'd expect nothing. Nothing else in this. What sort of, it wasn't. I have to reiterate. Before I go, I'm going to leave it in a minute.

But the guy in my left was a truly great cricketer. He was a fantastic cricket. It's very hard when you're on the end of it. It's not easy at all. But, you know, you're talking in the top, you know, half dozen bowlers or top dozen bowlers that we've seen. So in that sense, it's a privilege to have played against him. Absolutely. I feel that.

You know, I played against some great bowlers. Marshall, Akram, Ambrose, Donald, Warren, obviously, Glenn. Brilliant bowlers. And I wouldn't change a moment of it. Because I do believe that test cricket is about that challenge and that level of competition. And measuring yourself against the very best. And you'll come short from time to time. The game is as much about failure as it is about success.

you will come short. Certainly I came short. But I kept coming back. Yeah, I agree with that. It's coming up against the guys who are the best, and I love bowling to those batsmen. And that's where you find out how good you are. Some days you'll get on top.

Other days they will, so it's that battle that I love. It's unfortunate, Mike, that I'm afraid your Sky colleagues are going to be calling up that number of dismissals for a while, aren't they? Oh, absolutely. But that's, you have to be able to laugh at yourself as well, actually. Exactly. In this game, which is a cruel game at times, as we've said,

if you do not have a sense of humour or an ability to laugh at yourself, it's an even tougher game, let me tell you. You've got to be able to laugh at yourself and not take yourself too seriously. There's so many things in life. Everyone's got their own battles and challenges to face and how you pick yourself up and carry on. And what we did out here and played for our country. It's something incredible.

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