Test Match Special - Ashes Daily: Headingley Journo panel

Episode Date: July 10, 2023

Jonathan Agnew is joined by a journalist panel at Headingley to discuss the latest Ashes talking points. Emma John from the Guardian, Gideon Haigh from the Australian and John Etheridge from the Sun talk Brook batting, Spirit of cricket and possible changes for Old Trafford.

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Now, we're going to assemble our journalist panel. It's lovely to see you, Emma John, John Etheridge. And we've got Gideon Haig as well, who of course writes for the Australian and the Times. Emma writes to The Guardian, and John Etheridge from the Sun newspapers. So we've got lots to talk about. It's a goodness sake.

Go on Emma, let's start with you. How you're feeling? Well, I just told your producer that every molecule in my body is vibrating right now. Is it? Can't work out what is going on. No, well. And it's not just this.

I mean, the fact is that I actually raced down to Lords yesterday. Oh, yes. To watch the women. To watch the women. And so I think I've kind of, partly the excitement of that, the excitement of watching, you know,

two Ashes matches happening at the same time, both at such a critical juncture in the series, then getting, you know, getting back up to Leeds at 2 o'clock in the morning and being fueled by, coffee and cake all the way up it's a heady it's a heady mixer it is heady mix it were you here four years ago i wasn't here four years ago so this is this is this is very special yes oh absolutely yeah so how are you following it four years ago i i do you really want to know

the story this is a good story it involves um andy's alzman yeah fine uh so i was actually on that on the final day i was on my way to edinburgh because i was presenting a book talk and um before my book talk was Andy's last he was coming to the end of his Edinburgh fringe run. Right. So I was on a plane from London to Edinburgh. We sat on the tarmac and

I'm watching it on my phone and I think the plane took off just after Joffar Archer got out. Oh yes. At that stage I thought well this is done this is okay so it's okay that the plane's about to take off that's fine and then as I landed I turned my phone on as soon as I could, probably sooner

than I should have done. And immediately, all, you know, my phone's blowing up, all these messages, Emma, are you watching? Emma, are you watching? Get your phone back on, get your phone back on. And so I watched the climax in a taxi, because my plane had been delayed, I now know that I'm running late

for Zaltz's gig. Yes. So I'm watching it in a taxi, going nuts in the back of this taxi. I actually had to apologize to the taxi driver. I did genuinely say to me, I'm really sure I don't know if your cricket fan, but something very extraordinary is happening, so it might get a bit noisy back here. And then eventually, I did get to Zeltz's gig.

I was about five minutes late. It was a full house. Was it? So I got sort of shunted in at the back. I crept in as quietly as I could because there was only one seat left and the steward's taking me to my seat. Andy turns around, sees me and goes,

Emma John, why are you late? Called me out in front of the whole audience. Well, that's not very kind. Nice story, though. Yeah. Okay, that's why it's special here today. boringly i was here you were here wasn't anywhere near as interesting as that any tales to tell

it's been fascinating it's fallen in line with this intriguing series it's just the gift that keeps on giving well i was having a chat with this so tom holland the classicist historian and author captain of the authors 11 captain also of the 11th he was up here on friday as was john hotton also a brilliant author of many great cricket books including being Jeffrey Boycott last year. And we were talking about narrative structure

and saying that, you know, the problem with this series is that we have, it now, the narrative is so huge. The narrative arc has become so big. It's got so much more to give, isn't it? Do you think this series it has? Yeah. It does, it does. And we're talking about the narrative.

I mean, clearly that kind of exploded the last week as well. And there was lots written and lots said. and so on about what it's going to be like up here because Heddingley's pretty lively anyway, isn't it? But it doesn't really felt like that, has it? I was out there for the toss on the first morning and the players were chatting away to each other, as if nothing had happened, really, between...

Well, maybe nothing really did. Maybe a batsman was given out fairly, and there really shouldn't have been that sound and fury signifying nothing afterwards. It's been a terrific crowd up here. I think they've been first-rate. I love coming to Heddingley. does have fantastic memories.

2019 is an imperishable memory for every cricketer who is involved and everyone who is watching it. And, you know, England's had the better of the conditions up here, I think. Yes, definitely. No disputing that. But they've kind of deserved them. You know, what goes around comes around in the course of the narrative arc of a five test series. These externalities even themselves out. Were you ready for a bit of a bust up here, John?

I think if, you know, the colonels and the Viscounts in the Bavilion at Lords, were getting across, then you might have expected the slightly more earthy patrons on the Western Terrister but in fact they haven't. It's been it's been a, it's been booing and probably a few chaps of cheese and so on but it's been a sort of pantomime feel to it

rather than really a really aggressive feel to it. It was the one session wasn't it on the first day it was the final session of the day that really took off and I think we were all a little bit surprised coming into it that it didn't happen earlier because

because everything had been set up exactly like you said, pantomime. That's what it's very much felt like to me that even though obviously the England players were furious at the time about the dismissal. There's a certain kind of self-generating fury that's going on there

and they're using it in order to fuel them and it's all wonderful. But we know that a lot of these players are friends and we know that in other domestic leagues their teammates and all the rest of it. So we know that this is a kind of slightly artificial layer. They're not suddenly going to, you know, detest each other overnight over the course of a week. But I, the Western Territ did, the first day, the last session, it did get really

pretty, it got pretty fun and pretty interesting. And, and I think, you know, a lot of people out there were, I was sat with a group who, all England fans, but there were just two or three Aussies, dotted in a couple of them who live in Leeds now, you know, and are married to Yorkshire women. But it was very interesting because all the people sitting right next to them, right around them, in front of them, they would be yelling, all the stuff we know about Aussie's cheating. They would be using quite a lot stronger language than that as well. So some of it was quite, you know, it's quite earthy, as you say. But then what would happen was after they'd given it some and they told Kerry what they thought of me, they told Cummings

what they'd thought of them, and they told every Aussie, you know, what they thought of them, These England fans would then turn around and say to the two Aussies who are sat there in their little crocodile fancy dress outfits mate you're all right you're all right like you know we love you really I thought that was a really lovely thing to see because Pat Cummings is married to a Yorkshire

Lessig from Paragonet isn't she from? Do you think just as last one all that kid you because I know you wrote very strongly about it but I just wonder if in time someone raised at the press conference for Cummins the day with all that chanting about cheating and South Africa and sandpaper

if there was an opportunity that he might look back on in years to come or maybe even fairly soon and thought you know actually that whole thing that whole narrative to go and use that word

would have been different they couldn't have chanted that anymore if I think they would have done it anyway wouldn't they? Well they wouldn't have been doing like that they love it they love it we love beating each other up and we'll find any pretext

to do so and look you know, in the end, yesterday there was a man in an inflatable pig costume being chased by a bunch of butchers. How threatened can you really feel by a crowd like that? No, that's true, but you don't, I mean, the noise in laws and the booing, isn't it's not something actually you want to hear

anywhere in the cricket crowd. Well, you certainly don't want it to hear it in the members. No, yeah. You don't want it anywhere. No. I don't know. Look, I think all the cricketers talk about it just being white noise. We're maybe more conscious of it than the cricketers are. They are intensely focused on what they're doing.

We have the whole panorama to take him. And the reason that they're professional sportsmen is they are, because they are capable of screening those factors out. That's why they're really good, and we're not. Actually, you were good, Jonathan. I can remember you playing cricket. Briefly good. But I do think that this spirit of the game

will ever actually be accepted and understood by everybody, because the line just seems to move. Everybody has their own... Well, it's a spirit. Their own marker of it, yes. It's a spirit. And in that sense, it's kind of inherently indefinable. But if you want an elaboration on it, if you want a kind of a definition on it,

I think the preamble to the laws of cricket is a pretty good one. I looked it up. I'd looked it up before, but I reminded myself of some of its exhortations. And one of them is to accept the umpire's decision. One of them is to play hard but fair. and one of them is to put things behind you when you're faced by adversity. And I think Australia probably did a good job of that

at Lords, and maybe some others didn't. I'm not a great fan of what you might call slightly sneaky dismissal. I don't like man-cadding. Man-cadding is in the laws. I hate man-cadding. It's almost being encouraged, and I've certainly been accepted, but I just don't like it. But there was nothing sneaky about it.

It was an accident. When Kerry let loose that ball, Berstow was actually standing in his crease. I'm aware of all that. My feeling is that in some ways the underarm was in the nature of a warning. Sometimes you do that just to remind the batsman that you're there as a keeper. And as it was, Birstow stepped out of it accidentally and got himself out. But people get out and cricket accidentally all the time. What I don't want to see, and this is what worries about the spirit of the game,

I don't want to be commentating on the final ball of a World Cup final. in front of 80,000 people in Melbourne and it ends with a man cad. It happened in the junior world. Correct. And that's where my kind of spirit. For me, I like a warning. And if you were going to mancad stuff,

you warn them first. If they had warned Johnny Bears says, look, you do that again, you're gone. How many test measures of Johnny Beersdale played? If he doesn't know that by now, really, who could help him? But that's why your interpretation of things is different to mine.

My interpretation of it is in line with the laws. Well, I could say, mine's in line with the laws. They misinterpret them in different ways. Okay, all right. Well, we'll have to agree to different. That's fine, and that's the idea of this entirely, Gideon. And we always do so, we'll shake hands afterwards. Let's talk about Harry Brooke and Mowing Alley.

I mean, Harry Brooke, this looks to be to be much better off at number five. John, don't you think? I mean, that was a, it appeared to be a very short-lived experiment. I mean, presumably, they won't trust him to bat at three in the next game. That opens up all sorts of. So, I mean, presumably, I mean, because I, I mean, I, I'm just guessing the one change of the next test will be Anderson in for Robinson.

So Mowing would have to bat three again, unless they can persuade Joe Rooters of it, but I don't think they will. I think Stoke is happy for him to bat at four. Obviously, Root himself wants to bat at four. So it looks like Mowin's going to go, you know, as he's up and down like an elevator in the order which he's done throughout his career.

So it looks like he'll be at three for the next test man. Never mind Australia having three number 11s. England's got sort of four number fives, don't they? Then that's the problem, isn't it? What do you think, Emma? I mean, he just looks, I mean, he's quite an unusual player, let's be honest, but he looks much more suited to play that role at five than at three. It's funny, isn't it?

Because, yes, and sometimes it doesn't make, it actually doesn't make really much difference in terms of when you're coming in. So it's kind of interesting that it always, a lot of these things feel kind of psychological. But yes, in some ways, I mean, it was, you know, I was sad to see Mowing get out, but it was kind of, you know, there's a bit going in your head where you're thinking, this is kind of a worthwhile sacrifice almost once you then see Brooke come in and look confident and play those drives you think well actually yeah that was a really that was a really good cool because it's obviously just done wonders for his for his head yes he's unusual player isn't he

he's fascinated to watch yeah very sort of unusual technique i wonder how he'd work in Australia you know he's capable of playing those stand-deliver shots on pitches that don't about anywhere near so much. It is a fascinating imponderable, isn't it? Why certain players succeed in some positions, but not others. The example in Australia's history was Michael Clark, who never wanted a bat number four. Very, very loath to do so.

And if you look at the difference between his record at number four and number five, it's marked. You know, it's a bad factor of about 40 runs. But really, it shouldn't have made all that much difference. I guess players are superstitious. Well, that must be part of it. Yeah, that they succeed in certain positions. They identify the position with the success.

They're very heavily grooved. They're very narrowly focused. They don't want anything to mess with their heads if they can avoid it. I mean, Stokes has come in before Berto here, which is a switch from the first doing. So that's, I guess he's, that's him saying, right, I'm going to take responsibility. I think it is. I just talk to Brooke, perhaps, and just gone through. His catch yesterday, I think, says a lot about Harry Brooke, the one at short leg that I'm in.

Because that was, I mean, some people just have this. incredible talent to catch a ball, to hit a ball, or whatever it may be. And I think Brooks got that, because that catch yesterday, that was Bearstow's catch, wasn't it? And as he's running back with a helmet on, and the ball is behind him coming up, he looked up at Bearstow twice. And he still could see the ball, and he could still dive and catch it. I mean, there's something about this fella.

It must have been, he must at some point have lost sight of the ball. Absolutely, because he's looking at Berstow. And he sensed its presence. He predicted the arc and positioned himself to under its fall. A helmet on with a peak and a drill I thought that was an incredible catch Actually, and I mentioned Johnny Beirstow

What do we think about that? From an Australian perspective Gideon, I mean he's made a lot of mistakes Isn't he? I mean, he's had this horrible interview He's come back from And yet There have been errors made

What should England do there? I mean, is it sort of result dependent On whether he... Well, it is kind of fascinating They had the option to reverse the original plan here in this test match, didn't they? Yeah. With the vacancy in the order opening up, they could have bought folks back. They could.

That would have required them to admit that they made a mistake in the first place. I actually folks can bat. This is the ridiculous thing about it. You know, he's not Andy Brassington. You know, he can actually defend it. I don't know. I've got a friend of mine who I play with from Gloucestershire, and he's always talking about the Stoveold,

The Lassington controversy of the 70s and 80s. But folks can bat, and I don't think that England would lose all that much batting-wise if they were to play him. Besto is a terrific play. He's wonderfully watchable, and he's obviously had a fantastic last year. I don't think he had enough cricket. He don't think he had enough time behind the stumps in the early part of the season to get through five days. It's a hell of an ordeal.

And look, they have been difficult chances, mostly. probably two, a couple of them have been easy, but Joe Roots dropped five, and no one seems to be talking about that, and they've been pretty elementary. Slips can hide, can't they? Yeah, yeah, the poor old Keeper's got the spotlight all the time. Also, you do wonder about that, whatever that invisible, you know,

I've talked about molecules too much already today, but like whatever that kind of invisible cord is between Keeper and First Slip, you know, the fact that Bearstone and Root between them dropped 11 of the 14 England catches in the series so far is, and there's been a couple of times when the ball has flown between them and they've looked at each other in surprise and agony and you just think well that there's I think there's got to be a way in which that affects

each of them when one of them's having a bad time the other one is too I also think the concern is that it's being into effect Johnny's batting as well he made a 78 to run a ball in the first settings of the series before he'd kept wicket but since then pretty scant contribution and you know it's always so much happens to Johnny whether he's breaking his leg on the golf course or carrying a protester off the field or he's the victim of the underarm

I mean it's all his journey I thought that Brooke catch though did demonstrate a bit of a confidence hit for Berto did you I mean that was his catch yeah exactly but and probably the same with him not going for that catch

of Coahuas in the second innings first over of Coaja yeah neither of the move no it was really a keeper's catch and in some ways I think you know I know that the, you know, we know that the reason that folks has not been back in the tide is often because this, you know, it's can he bat, bas-ball, you know, is he, is he bas-enough enough? But I would argue there's nothing, there's nothing, there's nothing, there's nothing bas-ballier than his keeping.

I mean, that's the most bas-ball keeping in the world, you know, like, and I, and I just think, when you think of the energy, the energy that kind of keeping brings to your side. I think he's, you know, both his test and his career batting average is two ticks lower than in best, though, so it's not much to choose between. You made 100 last summer, didn't you? It's a hundred. Old Trafford, yeah. Which is where we go next, of course. So let's... The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge.

Perfect for the ultimate defender. The high-performance Defender Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D Dynamics Air Suspension. Learn more at landrover.ca. Let's move on to Jimmy Anderson, who I did see bowling out there earlier. It doesn't look happy, doesn't he? I mean, he made

big, and Stuart brought her two comments about the pitch at Edgebaston. Kryptonite, he said it, yeah, he did. So what are they going to do with him? Again, I suppose it could be results dependent, could it? Or do they go down the romantic route and give Jimmy

what would almost certainly surely be his last test match at Old Traffat, although he'll hate me to say that, but you imagine they will be? Or do they, if they win do they go hardball and think, actually, you know, tongue looks looks a better option in place of Robinson? A couple of things. I mean, Ben Stokes in his pretty much

press conference said that, you know, Jimmy's resting here, so he'll be fired up, ready to bowl from the Jimmy Anderson end in the next test. So I think they've got it in mind that he'll play. Robinson's got a back thing, hasn't he? Anderson for Robinson would be an obvious thing. Nicole, who does his column for the telegraph, says that as far as he can tell,

he has no intention whatsoever of retiring. Really? He wanted to go on, you know. Right. And, you know, if you're being sort of pragmatic about it, You know, he'll get another central contract, which is worth three quarters of a million pounds in September, so why would you retire before then? But, I mean, I think he'll probably try and carry on.

I am a massive romantic. So, of course, I want the story of Jimmy Bowling at Old Trafford, and I really think that's what's going to happen. But I also don't think it's that romantic. I think it's also pragmatic. I mean, I just think he is going to be absolutely on fire for that game. Yes. But you can want to be on fire.

It's a question of what? actually produced, isn't it? And I thought it was interesting Edgebaston on that last afternoon when Stokes didn't go to him. That suggests, I mean, normally, surely you'd go to Jimmy Anderson

with all the pressure on. The attack looks completely different with Mark Wood in it. When you've got Anderson, Robinson and Broad, you've got three bowlers pretty much in the same kind of speed area. You introduce Wood

and there is kind of scope for Anderson to bowl the Anderson way. Yes, yes. I don't like watching people like Anderson and Robinson that type of bowlers just running up and bowling bounces that's been quite so much in this game

because Lord's got a bit tedious thing What's wrong with Robinson Jonathan? I'd heard that he'd take him great strides He had, I wish I could answer that because I remember doing a piece last year on the telly saying that he was one of the most natural bowlers I've ever seen

He really was, he had a beautiful wrist I don't know It just doesn't seem to be coming out quite right Is it a rhythm But he still gets wickets I mean he still got 10 wickets and two games, two and a half games So what you're suggesting is you

can't see Stuart Broad and Jimmy Aniston walking off at the Oval like Curtley and Courtney did and the big retirement? I'd be surprised. I mean, five tests in India this winter is going to be hard work, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, there's an argument for not taking one or two of them, I suppose. At what point doing they had to move on, though? What point do they say, look, that's really great, Jimmy, but I say you're not getting your central

contract, we've got to move on. One thing, you know, that's right at the start of the Stokes-McCullan era was to say, we're going to pick our best team. They brought back, Broadenander. It would have been left out by Strauss, really, from the previous tour to the Westerners. I think Anderson's injury came at a bad time. He perhaps would have benefited maybe playing against Ireland

to get some of the floor overs under his belt. So he's probably a little bit short of a gallop, as they say, in Birmingham. But I'm pretty sure he'll play at Old Trafford, yeah. Let's get an Australian one in, shall we? How's David Warner's route to his retirement going at the moment? I saw one or two articles written saying it's time to move on and he's not going to get his big Sydney farewell

but how are you writing that one up? Yeah, look it might depend a little bit on what happens today I think if Australia lose and the ashes remains open then probably the selectors will want his experience in the side if Australia prevail at long odds at the moment there would be an argument for giving Harris the opportunity to bet himself in in a couple of test matches he's been following the squad around for almost a year

and not getting a hit. But the other argument that's been advanced is that Warner is fundamental to that Australian fielding effort. Standing at first lid, he's been really important this summer. It's a fantastically reliable catcher. We've seen from Joe Root's example how frustrating it is when your first lip is not catching regularly. You've got to find a new first lip if you eliminate Warner.

How about if Mitch Marsh keeps his place, Cameron Green is fit Can Warner get squeezed out of that way? With Marsh coming up as an opener? No, not March. Somebody else would obviously have to open but if Green comes back is fit and Marsh has been the best player.

Is that a possibility? An option is to leave Warner out and promote Labashane to open which he's done quite a lot of in his career and Steve Smith bats at number three and he's averaging 67 at that number in Tess cricket so it's not beyond the realm of possibility But Australia doesn't make those major changes, those changes which result in other changes.

They like in and out changes that minimise disruption to everyone else, perhaps for the reasons that we were discussing before. That's interesting. You talk about if they prevail and therefore it is like a kind of a line in the sand at the end of it ashes, isn't it? And that's why I made the point about Anderson and Broad really. When do England think, come on, actually, this is all very good. But we've got to move on now. You can't have a 41-year-old.

is keeping another central contract. Or can you? I mean, he's very special. Yeah, I'm sure he'll get a central contract. They'll don't have sort of bin him off, are they? I mean, who's going to tell him as well? That's true. What will he do afterwards?

Does he have a post-cricot career trajectory? Sometimes that can make a difference. Yeah, he can. I mean, he does some broadcasting. Right. He works. I think he would be a good coach. Yeah, I would be a great coach.

He would be a very good coach. He retained a role around the England team perhaps doing that probably the sort of guy who might come in two or three weeks

here as a sort of an ordering consultant a boring one but it's becoming quite relevant the overrates they're going relevant because of the

penalty points that are being racked up and I mean they're starting to write it and perhaps you are that Australia won't be able to

defend its crown simply because the number of penalty points it's picked up because of it's terrible overrace the fines are onerous

playing for free really They are, yeah. In England, not any better. Yeah. I actually, I have a bit of an issue about overrates. I think we overestimate them. I think we become unduly obsessed with them. I mean, frankly, we are overdue a kind of a time-in-motion study of test cricket to see where we lose the time.

Yes. And my suspicion is that it can't all be placed at the feet of the bowling team. I think badders these days take up every bit as much time. The constant relaying of drinks and gloves and what have you from... People moving, oh, stop there, and I'm not quite ready yet. Yeah, completely unsupervised by the umpires, who seem to have no interest and no power to move the game along, I think, requires a review.

And obviously, these over-rate fines are having absolutely no impact. No, no, no. So... Well, it's also, it's the modern, it's the fact that it's a modern game that exactly like you say, Gideon, hasn't ever reviewed the... that it's actual internal structure. I was talking to my colleague on The Guardian, Simon Burnton, about this, yesterday and today.

And there are so many things about the modern day of cricket that don't make any sense and don't map onto our modern day. And honestly, apart from the overrate, which we both agree should just come down, it should be 80 over the day, because you're never going to get 90. But also, you know, lunch and tea. The immovability of lunch and tea.

Well, I quite like lunch and tea. No, no. I'm not saying you can't eat. I'm not saying you don't get to eat. But the sort of immovability, the idea that you can have an early lunch, but you don't have a late lunch. Well, we've had a late lunch here. We've had a late lunch here for a quarter of a whole hour. It's a tiny bit late.

But when you're looking at, you know, the days when we lose all the rain, and you're saying, well, we're going to have to take an early lunch. But you actually, there could have been a good chance for maybe the only time that you were going to get play was between 1.15 and 2.15. Then you need to be out there playing at that time. I mean, and also, you know, I mean, we were taking this to extremes and having a bit of a giggle. But, you know, let's face it, modern world, most of us work from our desk. So, you know, if people are going to be running in and out with drinks all the time, you know, can that not be like, you know, just snacks are going on and off? You know, Tour de France cyclists, they don't they? They just reach into their back pockets and grab an energy pouch.

Sorry, but I just can't accept this casual approach sort of slow every. You're saying she'll be 80 over today. We're lucky. We sit in an air-condition press box. the best seat in the ground we've fed and ward these people have paid

a lot of £150 pounds a ticket and they're getting robbed of eight overs a day did they feel short change at the end of that test men they do absolutely yeah I mean

Twitter I wouldn't necessarily use that as an accurate litmus test but the amount of consternation and fury on Twitter about the lack of not getting their full days allocation

because they've paid a large amount of money to get 90s I think I think if you did a blind study and you had them watching the cricket but you didn't tell them how many overs they were watching and it was all just about the quality

of it I'm not sure that they would be getting so angry I think people like to get angry about it because it's one of those things that in cricket we like to get angry about it. And you can quantify it it's very simple to draw attention to it's strange that we penalise the players so heavily for failing to meet the average rates

and yet our penalties for poor pitches obviously hometown prepared pitches are so light there are no fines, there are no suspensions. You accumulate demerits for the venue, but not for the board of control that's responsible for the pitchers.

I think that pitchers, poor quality pitches are a greater threat to cricket than lackluster overrates. Tell us about last night. It was great, and I was not working. I should point out so that, therefore, so that while it was extremely excited,

the England women's name was extremely exciting I was, can I just you know, just to be honest, watching it from the committee room rather than from the press box. I hope they will behave. Oh, so do I. Of course, because it was a women-only committee room that day, so it was incredible.

Actually, can I just say the pavilion atmosphere, extraordinary. As Lords always is when it's a women's match because the crowd makeup is completely different. So many more women and so many more children little girls in the pavilion that was so a wonderful thing to see in it

and I'm in the Lord's Pavilion a lot now and the fact that you can still go in and it can feel different and you can think what is it that's lovely about this place today oh there's lots of little girls in here normally children aren't allowed in and there aren't that many women in there as a result of there being less than 1%

female membership which I'm still convinced if we could fix that then we wouldn't see the booing scenes in the pavilion if it wasn't 99% male. As far as the women's ashes of concern, I was at the test match, which is a good event. And last night was incredible,

actually, because of the rain delay here, you could sit and watch the pitch and there were about, I think there was about five or six overs where they overlapped. And so you're watching the England Women Bowl and take wickets at the same time as you're watching the England openers here on the TV

batting it out, and you're thinking, this is it. This is the moment that two England teams turn an entire summer around. The TMS podcast. Take the Ashes with you this summer. Hear every ball. Live on BBC Sounds.

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