Test Match Special - Ashes Daily: Lord’s controversies digested by the journo panel

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

Jonathan Agnew is joined by writer and broadcaster Melinda Farrell, editor of Wisden Lawrence Booth and Guardian sports writer Jonathan Liew to discuss the controversies of Lord’s, where Bazball goes from here and the future of James Anderson.

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The third test at Headingley starts on Thursday with plenty of talking points and we discussed many of them with our journalist panel of Mel Farrell, wisdom editor Lawrence Booth and Jonathan Liu of the Guardian. It goes green, bow shored again, Beirsto ducks underneath it. So we're in that passage of... Oh, hang on. Now this is interesting. Beirsto's walked out of his crease. You're thinking it's the end of the over.

Carey has flung the stumps down from long range. He's out. That is going to go down really badly. So much has happened in this test. So much has happened. So I just think everyone downstairs is just like, give up. If we can't, so much is going on. And, you know, there was immediately people sit down there going, well, you know, it's out.

It's out. And others going, yeah, don't like it. So like everything else, it's probably going to take over the day. Right. Jonathan, come on. What did you make of all of that? And what was the atmosphere like around you and the journals when that happened? How do you feel about it as well?

Well, I mean, there's, yeah, like Mel says, there's been so much happening this test. You know, it was only four days ago that Johnny Birsto carried a just-stop oil protester over the ground. I feel certain I read about it in Wistin or something. Yeah, we've forgotten about that. No, I mean, I think there was a lot of laughter because it is objectively, if you take off your England hat, it is quite funny that that happened. And if it happened to any other player but Berto,

like an Australian or an Indian player, I think we'd find that quite funny. And it is controversial. Berto should not have been walking out of his ground. And I think it's kind of symbolic of the way England have tried to almost act as if rules don't apply to them. And obviously that's created some fantastic cricket, but also it's, you know, reality has come back to bite them a little bit.

Yeah. Editor of Wisden. well if you're writing a powerful thought piece about this you think I know the laws wouldn't you actually my first my first instinct was it was dozy by barestone my second instinct I turned around and saw Fraser Stewart who writes the laws for MCC and I went up to him and said

does a batter have to be attempting a run to be run out he said no no no it's nothing to do with that it's essentially whether the umpires decide the ball is dead or not so I looked it up here we have law 20.2 ball finally settled whether the ball is finally settled or not is a matter for the umpire alone to decide. And it was clear that Kerry didn't think the ball was settled. I mean, had he held on to, say, two seconds?

I think you could argue the ball was dead, and Berto should have left his crease. But it was almost in one go. He took it, and he'd spotted that Bester had been leaving his crease earlier. Early, a couple of, you know, earlier in his innings. And you could say it's a smart piece of thinking. He's a smart keeper.

You know, he stood down the leg side for the ducat catch slightly, almost anticipating that short ball. Yes, some people say it's sharp practice. I don't think I've ever heard Lord shout, same old Ozzy is always cheating. That felt like Edgbaston. But my first thought was it's dozy by best. Why even give the Australians a chance to do it?

So the call of over or not is irrelevant, actually. It's a case of whether the ball is considered dead. The umpires have to decide it's dead. And they clearly didn't. So he's out, I'm afraid. What about the spirit of the game? Why has Stuart Brawl come out like a raging bull? Why has Ben Stokes have seen, you know, gone wild?

Why are 20 or000 people shouting, cheating them? Well, because that dismissal falls into the category of dismissal that some players hate, especially English players. They don't like the run-out at the non-strikers end, for example. The man-cat. People call the man-cat, which people get angry about using that phrase. It falls precise into that category. It enrages an idea, which I've always thought as a nebulous concept anyway,

the spirit of cricket. Why have a set of laws if you've also got this kind of spirit, it that sits above it. I think that's the problem that cricket often gets into. And it's happened precisely with this. Look, Stokes was fired up, wasn't he? Because he then moves to his hundred, almost unnoticed with three successive sixes. When he hit the third one,

I was on the phone to my office and I said, oh, he actually just got to his hundred. Because everyone was talking about the runout. So maybe it's poked the beast. Maybe Australia will regret it. Well, do you think the beast was poked last night with that catch? And the Aussies feel a bit raw

about that and whatever you think about that than Mitchell Stark. I mean, do they feel they were poked last night and therefore they think the gloves are off? I definitely think they do. I mean, I don't know about you, but my Twitter has just gone nuts because I put up the actual law for the catch. And that has obviously got a lot of people quite cranky. Which way, though?

What's been the majority view of that then? Well, personally, I thought it was pretty easy decision for the umpire to make if you look at the laws. And a lot of people, Australians have been coming back to me and saying, well, you know what you're taught from a young age, if you're diving or sliding, taking a catch, make sure you keep the ball off the ground. So there are a lot of people saying that, but you know what it's like, then a lot of other people saying something else. But players are going to use anything like that to fire themselves up, right? So in the way that we've just seen after the Bearstow run out, what Stokes has done,

I would say that the Australian players will be using, you know, the Nathan Lyne coming out and batting the way he did and then Mitchell Stark taking that catch and then having it been deemed not a catch. Of course they're going to use it. They'll use whatever they can. Interesting things, Stuart Broad,

then have a go there because they'll use that. They'll use that as well. That's just what they do. But I was just saying to the other guys here, I have never heard anything like that at Lords, the booing. I've never heard it here. It may have happened before. But like when Steve Smith was here last time in 2019, all of that,

when Mohammed Amir was booed, I've never heard of them. It was very vocal. Jonathan, was the bear prodded last night? What are your thoughts on that catch? And whether that has had anything to do with what's spilled over today? Yeah. I mean, it's telling for two reasons, really. First of all, Australia didn't even think about

Ruthgrowing the appeal. It wasn't even a possibility to them. And I think they've... They don't like England. I don't think they like this England team. They don't like the kind of the mantras that they've come out with. And I think that was a bit of a tell

that there is more needle than I think England realised. And England now have... You know, if they didn't know they were in an Ashes contest before, they really do now with everything that comes with it. But now they have this kind of betrayal myth.

They have this idea that they were kind of cheated out of it. And, you know, they also had a bit of fun with Stokes this morning. So I think it's, weirdly, it might actually help them because going 2-0 down and getting bowl up at 200, that's kind of a damp squib of a series. Now there's, you know, even though they're 2-0-down, there's a bit of needle to it.

Do you remember, Lawrence, the incident here, I think it was a one-day game when Mitchell Stark was bowling to Ben Stokes and he hurled the ball at the stumps and Stokes actually left, when he left his ground, dived out of the way because he's going to get hit. And that I thought was, and again, a moment where actually an appeal could have been withdrawn.

Because it was just getting out of the way, he was going to get, you know, he'd start hurled the ball. So there are moments, aren't there, where, and it is this nebulous thing about what is spirit of the game and what isn't. And it just seems to sort of, I don't know, be talked about when it suits somebody and doesn't suit somebody else. I mean, it's a very movable feat, doesn't it, this whole spirit of the game thing. It is, yeah. I mean, it tends to happen when there's not much riding on the game. I mean, people used to say, I won't name names, but famous old batters who supposedly embodied the spirit of cricket

would walk on 120, but not on north. And that incident probably isn't happening in the second over the test match. But with the Australia's, I mean, I think, unreasonable resentment about the Stark catch last night. I mean, the fact it is a bit like Bearstow, it was dozy by Stark to rub the ball along the ground. Don't even give the umpars the option of chalking that one off.

I mean and the laws are quite clear about it you know having control over your body so you know that's fine but they have fine they used it to fire themselves up cricket's always getting itself into this mess and look it's a great talking point where here we are it's the first issue we're talking about the fact that England are probably about to go

two nil down in an ashes that has been built up more than anything since 2005 has almost been parked we get so angry about these issues in cricket because for some reason we think cricket operates on a higher moral plane from every other sport and as we've just seen it does not It doesn't. And what about the spirit between the teams then?

Because, I mean, if Australia do win this match, and they're obviously strongly fancied, too. Although Ben Stokes is batting heroically and so too, is broad, to be fair. How can you see these two days? I mean, there's only three days. And off we go to Leeds, which is going to be lively anyway,

that West Stand, crikey. It doesn't take much to kick off in there. I mean, what do you think this will do for the series, then, Mel? If we have to get through today first, I can't cope with the thought of going back to Headingley because the thing is that Headingley has changed me as I watch cricket and Ben Stokes has changed me as I watch cricket because in a situation like this even coming in this morning

you just think a couple of quick wickets that's all going to be over quite quickly but then the tension sort of starts from what's happened. I agree that maybe Australia don't like England that much. Well more to the point, I don't think. they like the fact that England have been, you know, they're the cool team. They're the team that everyone has loved watching over the past year. They are the team that everyone wants to be and play like and everyone's raving about them. And I reckon that's probably annoyed them a little bit because they're used to being that team, right? The team that everyone

wants to be. So I think that's probably part of it as well. Do you think it's why England have talked? There's been a certain arrogance and stubbornness, certainly, about the interview that have happened well certainly this game we can point to one or two but do you think the Aussies thing actually you know something's bit arrogant we are better than this

you can't come out and thrash us around our attack around like you did you have been for the last 12 months you think that that's all oh totally yeah we saw it with South Africa last year they got you know incredibly annoyed by the idea of basketball

you know this there was a kind of a messianic dimension to it we are changing the game we're not just winning we're changing the game we are doing something that is you know on a higher for the good of the game for good to everybody else. It's not just about winning.

And, yeah, that is going to put people's backs up. There's a kind of, yeah, an amateur era arrogance to it. Can I just say I just love hearing people talk about England talking with such arrogance? Yeah. Because that has, that's what Australia has been right for so long. For all the years coming up to this, the accusation has been that Australia was arrogant. Yeah, and, you know, crawley saying, oh, I don't win by, I don't know, 150 runs.

you know that was a very Glenn McGraw type type thing to say don't wind him up again for goodness say we had enough of that yesterday I mean it has put some noses out of joint and they so Australia don't just want to be England here because it's the ashes they almost they want to destroy the idea

and I think that that is you know that is what is fueling them a little bit does it feel like Basball versus traditional cricket and absolutely you know the Aussies don't actually think I mean they hadn't really respected or thought much of basball have they really No. Actually, I thought the first test was more Basble the traditional cricket.

I mean, Australia started with a deep point when Zach Crawley-hammer had come-ins first ball. And, of course, the debate for much of that first session was Australia have blinked first. They've reacted to Basball, and England will keep going. Now, I think this test is slightly different because that mad half-hour in England lost three wickets to the short ball on when was it, the third evening, second evening, didn't feel to me like England's concept of basball. It just felt like they'd lost their heads. they've always made this point about Basball is absorbing pressure when you have to and then reapplying it when the moment is right.

Now, Nathan Lyon had just hobbled off. They're 188 for one in reply to 416. Australia looked bereft of ideas. The third test started in a week's time. If you duck under some bounces for half an hour, you can win this game. But they didn't think on their feet. And to see Joe Root sucked into it as well

was quite a big moment, especially after he was caught off the no ball. So he'd have one life. then Brooke was dropped and Stokes interestingly in both innings I only got 17 in the first innings

he's been the one who's calmed it down until the last 20 minutes when the adrenaline's kicked in after the Birsto run out so Stokes has almost come out and sent a message to his team and saying

we're better than this and I think that'll be England's regret if and when they lose this game is that they did have Australia by the Short and Curlies and they didn't take it I'm afraid I'd also hear the editor of Wisden speaking of those sorts of terms

I mean I thought that maybe when and it's easy up here isn't it you just watch a game taking place it's like watching a game of chess but when lion limped off just some gloves coming out from the dressing room saying this is a big moment everybody actually the game is changing here

off he goes we get a lead we get a lead and we will win this game and there wasn't anything I thought maybe some communication there'd enough people up there to say come on let's go and tell them because you get so sucked into it don't you When you're actually, you're out there batting, you know, against Australia, the lords in the middle, you are.

And they were a bit, they were a bit distracted, I think. Just a moment of calm from the dressing room and say, hey, just look at that. This is what we're going to do from now on. This is our change of tack. I think that would have helped. Pope's vice captain as well. So I don't want to get into setting,

the setting example, kind of moralistic sort of stuff. It was interesting what Duckett said after play, which was that had we not taken on the short ball, Australia would have won. And for me, that was the first sign that they'd gone over, they crossed the line, if you like the Basball line, because I mean we followed them closely for the last year and I've never

seen them back that headlessly. I imagine that was how Australians who hadn't watched much of Basball England thought that Basball cricket was. You know, you see that on social media. Oh, you see Basball, it's a load of rubbish. They just sloggered everything. That's never been what it's about. No. That's the disappointing thing for England. They've made smart

decisions generally and they didn't do it in that what do you think of the relations between the two teams. It'll be interesting to see when they come out. I mean, they're all there. Stephen Finn was graphically describing in this same room now, separated by just a yard or two, and they are sitting at two dining tables. In that room, I mean, it could be like a cauldron in there, or are they going to say, hang on, you know, let's just try and, you know,

you don't want to come out and booing. Is any way now before the game's finished that the two captains are going to have a conversation to calm it down, or is it just gloves off? Well, I mean, Stokes might try and use this to fuel him, won't he? Broad's clearly angry. they can use this righteous indignation to get them over the line that will be their thinking

generally I think the series have been playing in pretty good spirits it's a friendly Aussie team the English guys are good guys I mean it's generally been played in they've got on with each other so but it's funny how quickly it can turn and I think there is this simmering resentment about

basketball well that's the thing I was you Jonathan when you say that this Australian team don't like the English team very much is not necessarily the personalities or the characters in the team it's the way they've been playing the game and the message that's come out of there Yeah, we had a lot, you know, ahead of this series about how, you know, the two sides get on.

They all share IPL dressing rooms and franchise, you know, they play with each other in franchise cricket. And there isn't that kind of, there isn't that simmering hatred that they used to be. This is still Ashes cricket. And once you, you know, once you cross over that white line, I think a lot of the, you know, the old alliances and the friendships, they kind of go out of the window. And so it should be because that's what this contest is about. And I think if England are guilty of anything, you know, you sort of kind of laughing. and joking with the Australians on the start of day two, I think it was.

You know, I think maybe they've been suckered into thinking that this series is playing at a much more friendly Corinthian spirit that it actually was. This is Australia. They play hard cricket. You should know that. Because they've all, you know, they've all pretty much all of them played Ashes series before. They haven't, you know, the nature of how Australia

play cricket doesn't really change. And if they weren't aware of that, they should be now. What about the short pitch bowling and the methodology of all that? Are we going be watching three test matches of 98% of the balls banged in halfway down the pitch

and what do you think of that and also change of personnel I suppose for England going forward so let's start with that short pitch stuff what do you make of that yesterday I was a bit concerned we just have a bounce of warfare but then the way Australia bowed today it hasn't been like

they were testing duck it out a bit but they're not bothering against Stokes because he generally ducks under them and he may have a crack and they can be doing it no it was strange wasn't it I mean, Australia played it as badly as England, really. They'll stay for 92, guys who are ducking under for half an hour,

then having a go, Steve Smith, someone's experience as him. It's hard, isn't it? When you are under pressure to score runs, England having put themselves under pressure to score runs, incidentally, because of the forward-thinking, whatever you want to call it, the positive nature. Australia, actually because they had to move the game along, it's actually quite difficult to cope with

when you've got all these fielders back there and some pretty skillful, well-directed short, you don't just run up as hurl bounces down. I mean, you've got quite a small area these days when they're calling wides over the top and the way the batsmen play anyway, you know, getting the right height. It isn't just, it isn't that easy,

but it's actually not, it's not an ineffective tactic. No, it wasn't. I mean, Robinson, we wouldn't have had him down as the guy to bowl nine over the bounces, but he took two for seven. Yeah. And if he got that bowling top of off stump,

he'd have been delighted. So it did slow Australia down. It gave England a 5% chance of victory when perhaps they had a sort of, 1% chance half an hour earlier I mean you wouldn't want

all test cricket to be like that would you get boring no I mean it wouldn't all be like this and you know

part of the beauty of test cricket is you know you goes to Sri Lanka or Bangladesh and you'll get sort of 90% overs of spin

it's a legitimate tactic because of how kind of two paced the pitches have been England wanted fast fast flat pitches and you know

that's not what it's not not easy to produce fast flat pitches in a kind of a temperate environment. That's been abandoned already, I think, isn't it?

After the one go at it at edgebousen, this has had a bit more movement to it, hasn't it? Yeah, so it's hard to play, it's hard to play cross-badded shots against the short ball when, you know, you're not quite sure of the bounds or how high it's going to get. We've seen some leap off the length,

we've seen some keep low. And so, you know, obviously that's going to be, that's just good cricket. That's just smart cricket. Yeah. Bouncers for you, Mel. Well, I actually asked Mark Triscothic about this in the press conference

last night what he thought of the fact that there were so many bounces up out of the game we don't normally see almost 100% in a 47 over period and and he was as sort of gobsmacked about it

as the rest of us and he said that they were sitting on the balcony watching and having the discussion that this might actually change test cricket it pitches are flat all the time stop talking about changing test cricket no I'm going to defend him here He wasn't actually saying that.

He was kind of saying, looking at pictures and what's happening, is this what's going to happen more and more? He said, I think teams will watch this and is this going to happen more? I actually said to him, but is it good? And he said, I don't know. And that's the first time I've actually heard anyone in the England camp actually say, not have conviction. And he was being honest and kind of saying,

I don't know if that was good. And I don't think it was that entertaining. I actually found it uncomfortable to watch a lot of the time. I didn't think even batting in the first thing is entertaining. We're talking about being entertainers. Oh, that was anything, it was infuriating. It didn't think very entertaining. Well, I agree.

And the point Lawrence was making with Ben Duckett as well and asked him, you know, did you have that conversation or think out there at that time when Lion went off? We could set up a series. We could set up a match, whatever it is. And he actually just said, no, no, there was no conversation. We weren't thinking about it. We were just expressing ourselves.

And I got, I must admit, I started to get cross at that point. But that was the first time I've heard them admit that. That maybe that's not. Because we all talk about Bazbole and is it entertaining. People tend to think about the batting. Is that an entertaining bowling tactic? I just want to make this point. It's fine.

It is okay for test cricket to be boring sometimes. Yes. It's a third innings with a big first inning's lead. And that, you know, those, those patches of play are often quite turgid. And that's okay. Tess cricket is, you know, cricket fans are kind of used to passages of play where it's just not, not thrilling. It doesn't have to be, you know, crash bang, wallop, you know, drama all the time.

No. And we go back to that point that we had at the start about being entertaining losers. I think people talk about that. I mean, at the end of the day, actually, the results do matter. And we've been getting quite a lot from England about, well, I remember my interview with Ben Stokes before the first test match. I said, you know, well, this tactic. We need the ashes and he looked at me

he said well I hope so but if not he shrugged his shoulders now I think I mean people at the time thought oh that's good he's taking some pressure off the team but actually you know results aren't

I suspect he was trying to wind you up a bit I guess I mean you see all this I think some of this stuff gets misinterpreted a bit the reason they talk about entertaining cricket is because they think if they're playing entertaining cricket they're playing aggressive cricket, and if they're playing aggressive cricket, they increase their chances of victory.

And by and large, in the basball era, that has been vindicated. Edgeburston, they probably should have won that game. Australia, needed 55 with two wickets and 19 times out of 20. The bowling team wins that. And then we'd have been hailing Stokes, wouldn't we, the first evening declaration, supposedly not very ruthless batting on the third, fourth day. Here, it's fallen apart because they had that headless half hour and then brook didn't back very well next morning.

but it's a device to ease pressure on the dressing. When Stokes says we're not a results-orientated team, it doesn't mean he doesn't want to win. I mean, we saw him after Edgberston. He said it countless times, I am gutted, we lost. He does want to win. It's just a device to take pressure off, and he thinks it increases his team's chances of victory.

The TMS podcast. Keep up to date with live text and highlights during the match on the BBC Sport website and app. Enjoy even more of the ashes. It means everything as a kid. It's a pinnacle of test cricket. Find out what it takes to lift the famous urn in how to win the Ashes. I'd already decided how I was going to go about it.

If I was going to get out, it was going to take a great ball or a great catch. And the Tail Enders Boys are back. Let's talk about your Ashes memories, Jimmy. Talk us through your debut in Brisbane in 2006. Yeah, we got battered. Take the Ashes with you this summer on Radio 5 Sports Extra and BBC Sounds. So we're chatting away. We've got Mel Farrow.

I've got Laurence Booth, they've got Jonathan Liu chatting about all sorts of things and I'm now going to move on to Jimmy Anderson. What do we think about Jimmy? I was quite intrigued at Edgebaston when it became so tight as

55 or two wickets that Stokes didn't go to him. That was possibly revealing? Yeah, I actually wrote a piece on this subject in the mail on Sunday today because it is a concern. It wasn't just that moment. It was the first evening

when he had four overs at Australia's openers and Broad and Robinson took the new ball we've had Birsto standing up to Anderson in this test. Little signs that... Two drop catches were, you know, some kind of barometer of your state of mind, I don't know. None of it adds up

to a good picture of Anderson. He's taken, what, three wickets at 75 in this series, which is well below his usual standards. Stokes isn't going to him in the clutch moments and I think that's quite revealing. If the second new football is available and you've got the tail enders to knock over,

I mean, that's Jimmy Anderson territory, but Stokes didn't go to him, as you say, at Edgbaston. I'd be surprised if he plays at Headingley because he's just not looking 100% fit. He said he was below power. Edgberston described the pitch as Cryptonite, made a comment about if all pictures are like this, I'm done in this Asher series,

which again wasn't a particularly uplifting message to send to his teammate. So you write him off at your peril, obviously, because he spent the last five years of his career, having it written off by various people at various times. but you do begin to wonder now whether even Jimmy with the way he's looked after his body

whether it is catchy he's 41 at the end of this month whether it is finally caught up with him Jonathan are you dusting down your end of career piece not yet I do know that he got very down after the edge bastard test

you know that newspaper column where he essentially talked about retirement in a way that he hasn't evoked himself of his own bat that I can remember that I think was quite quite, you know, worrying, I guess, and the fact that he's not, he's clearly not the main man in this attack anymore. And what has sustained Jimmy from, you know, at the age of 35 onwards

through these kind of late career years is still being the guy. He's not doing it to pad his stats. He wants to be the guy who wins England test matches. And if he's no longer the guy who's taking the new ball, you know, getting the crowd on his side and, you know, winning England test matches with match winning spells, a large part of what has kept him going, I think, is going to be, is not going to be there anymore. So, you know,

it's interesting to see what he does after this series. It's interesting to see how England use him for the rest of the series because if he's not their go-to bowler, you do wonder kind of,

you know, what's he there for? Yeah, you write about a lot of other sports as well. I mean, you must probably dealt with, that main man thing's quite an interesting thing,

isn't it? I mean, that is, ego, it's that position that you hold. And that's, when you're not that main man anymore, that really does chip away too.

Yeah, Christiane Ronaldo, You think of, he's what, 38, 39, 38, I think. And, you know, he should probably be dropping down to the championship and, you know, winning something with Bristol City. But he can't, that's his level now. But he can't, his ego can't handle that. So obviously he goes out to Saudi Arabia

where he's, you know, he's getting paid more than any athlete in the world probably. It's a huge thing for late career sport, you know, athlete. When the body starts to break down, you know, they need to kind of, they need to bridge that gap to their young. younger self in other ways. And often that is through being the main man, through the acclaim and the kind of the rewards and the respect that come. And respect is a huge thing. If Jimmy's

not taking the new ball on a first evening when it's swinging around, that's a big blow. Oh, you feel it. Yes, I'll remember that happened to me more than once. I can still feel the pain all these years on, Mel. What do you think? Is the team moving on? Well, they've got other options, as both the others have said. It's been interesting to me, with in the past year how even in Pakistan where you saw I think he was coming on bowling short first change

he was part of this okay I'm going to do stuff that I've never done before as well because I'm buying into what we're doing and so to see him in Pakistan banging it in short I was like what's going on but that was all he seemed to be invigorated by

that he's doing new things he's finding new roles but I don't think think he's going to enjoy the thought of banging it in short in England, is he? That's not what he's about. Could this be his last test? I don't know. If he doesn't play at Headingley, you can't imagine him not playing at Old Trafford, surely. But I don't think England can afford to, I don't know, do it to be nice either, if they feel that they've got more effective options to

win this. But I would never write him off in the same way either. I want to talk about the ICEC report. How do you think it's been reported and how do you think it's been received and how do you think the board are going to deal with what's in it, Jonathan? I'm extremely encouraged, actually, by the way that certainly it's been reported. I think, you know, the media can be quite divided, I think, along issues like this. And I think there is near unanimous, near unanimous, kind of a view within the cricket media, certainly,

that things have been rotting for a while. and that they need to change. And obviously there's a lot of disagreement on exactly what those things should be. But acknowledging the scale of the problem and the historic scale of it, I think that is a big first step, only a first step, but it's significant.

Do you think the board are going to, will have to act? We've had these sorts of reports before and these moments in which they've, oh yes, we'll go to this and so on, and then actually nothing happens. Do you feel actually this has gone beyond that now and actually they do have to look very carefully.

Well, all of these things that are contained within that report. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it helps that, you know, that the Richards, you know, Richard Gordon, Richard Thompson are kind of, still relatively new in their jobs. Yeah. And they don't, they don't carry the can for a lot of the stuff that went on before.

And it is maybe politically easier for them to kind of, to come in with a new broom and say, you know, we really need to take a decisive action. And I actually have a lot of faith in them to do that. Right. Lawrence, what do you mention of, of the way it's been reported. I mean, the issues in it, I think, you know, were obviously shocking and they have been

well published it, but whether the game has got it to actually do something, to do something about it. I mean, we had Rishishishanak in here yesterday talking about it, well, you know, we'll be keeping an eye on what's done. You know, this is for, for the government to say that as well, is clearly,

well, it helps, does it, to make sure that actually the board do go away. They've got, I think, three months they said, didn't they, to go away and really consider it all, not at least the budget as well, that's, how are they going of redistributing money that had allocated elsewhere to

implement some of the recommendations that have been made. Well, they've had reports before which have been largely ignored. Lips service has been paid to them and then everyone's got on as normal. So I think what happened with Azim Rafiq created this huge space for a lot of cricketers to come out and talk about their experiences and that really has

that got the ball rolling. Unfortunately, it needed some unpleasant experiences to persuade people that something needed to be done. So I think the Richards Thompson and Gould are progress. aggressive, open-minded guys who are taking this seriously. And also, don't forget, they were at Surrey when Ebony Rayneford Brent went to them and said, I'd like to do something about the lack of African Caribbean cricketers

in local cricket and Richard Goulders. I'm like, well, you've got three weeks to sort it out. And lo and behold, the ACE program has been an absolute triumph. It's shown that this community wasn't just interested in football, that they were just waiting to be reached essentially. You could counter, though, that perhaps they should have realised. before everybody went along and said how about this. Of course they should have done, yes. It shouldn't have got to this stage where something needed to be done.

But I think everyone understands the seriousness of the issue now and it'll be criminal if they don't improve things. Quick one from you, Mel, on that. And then we're going to listen to how it sounds outside as the Australians take the field, which they're going to in a second. Well, I just think at that point you made there about it shouldn't have taken Ebony-Rainsford-Brent to do it. I think just shows why it's important to have some diversity within the leadership of the game. Your own personal experiences has a massive impact on how you view something. So I think there's some great aspirational stuff in there, and I think it will go further this time. It's a long-term thing, though.

It's not a quick fix, and I do think it's going to take a long time before we see change, but I'm definitely encouraged by it. That's good. That's a positive way they finish. Thank you, Mel. Jonathan and Lawrence, too. The TMS Podcast. Take the ashes with you.

Summer. Hear every ball. Live on BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Jade Adams. Welcome to The Neighbourhood. I came for banter. I'll be your tour guide as we explore the peculiar world of local social media groups. So as long as it's nothing to do with me, reading people arguing soothes me. I'll be picking up guests along the way, delving into their hometown's dramas. It's a grenade. Like Nick Grimshaw and self-esteem. If you think I should cover this one up, we should see me or the one. Radio 4's Welcome to the Neighborhood with me, Jade Adams.

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