Test Match Special - Ashes Daily: View from the Boundary - Eddie Hearn

Episode Date: July 28, 2023

Daniel Norcross talks to promoter, chairman of Matchroom Sport, the Professional Darts Corporation and presenter of 5Live’s No Passion No Point podcast, Eddie Hearn for his views on the game of cricket.Hearn discuss whether the result outweighs the result in sport, how personalities helps cricket grow, and how cricket was the only sport he played growing up.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. Watch highlights of every day, of every test on IPlayer. Well, this summer hasn't generally required too much in terms of promotion with such an exciting Ashes series in both the men's and women's game. But if anything did need a push, then our guest is one of the best equipped to do so.

He's one of the world's most successful sports promoters following in the footsteps of his father. A talented sportsman in his youth, he played junior cricket for Essex before starting his career as a promoter, working at a sports management company representing golfers. but it is as a boxing promoter that he's made his reputation working with the likes of Anthony Joshua, Audley Harrison, David Hay, Katie Taylor and Vladimir Klitschko and he's also got a very popular BBC Sounds podcast, No Passion, No Point,

where his guests have included Jimmy Anderson. It's a very warm welcome to Eddie Hearn. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I've honored to be here. An absolute delight. Now, first of all, we're going to come to your dad in a minute, but I want to get something out of the way. I heard you talking to Pierce Morgan the other day

and you are passionate about winning. Winning is a single most important thing. We're playing sport to win. We're not playing it to participate. We're not playing it to entertain. So what do you make of England losing the first two games but claiming they're really four-nil up in the moral ashes?

Because they were playing aggressively. Yeah, I mean, look, I think that the world's changed, hasn't it? Growing up for me, that was all that was ever drilled into me. Sport is, I mean, I'm not sure of I still agree with it in its entirety, but basically it was a waste of time if you don't win. And that's kind of a bit of a mantra

that I've had throughout my whole life, even through business as well. I do think we need to look at the participation side. I'm talking grassroots now. But at the elite level that you're talking about, absolutely. There is no... I mean, you can play in a nice way.

Completely irrelevant. You have to win. You know, it's like, you know, you get the England football team. Well, we're playing great football now. Yeah, but we're not winning any tournaments. It doesn't really matter. But then people start moaning

when you play boring cricket or football as well. So I don't think you can really... really win. But ultimately, at this level, at the elite level of the sport, winning is absolutely everything. And I feel that that's something that the Australians have always had up their sleeve, is the will to win and the ability to win, and that hard-nosed mentality of win by any means necessary. Well, this is fascinating because inside the English dressing room, they've made it very clear that they're not results-oriented. They're not in the results business. I don't quite know what business precisely you are in then, but they're not in the results business. And they said at the

end of edge baston well you know we we feel like that to win so well you're educating me here because i've never heard so much rubbish in all my life we are not in the results business of course you are if you lose you're out it's just like running the business if you don't make money you're done the result like the results as always is the fundamental aspect of the preparation of the work that you put in and most importantly of the performance It's the only way you can quantify success in sport, in business or as a team. You win or you lose.

If you lose, you're lost. Sorry. And listen, everyone give it their best. Important. But, you know, when you say we're not results-orientated, that is the biggest load of rubbish I've ever heard in my life. I came here for a nice chat to that,

but it's actually wound me up. Sorry. While I'm there, I'm going to ask a question and I ask for everybody who loves to say cricket. You played a lot of it. You played at a representative level. for Essex when you're a youngster. So if you scored 100 and your team lost,

how did you feel when he got back? As opposed to if your team won and you got a duck. I'm actually going to be brutally honest here. And I'm not very proud of it. I used to really only focus on myself when we were playing team cricket. And I almost, to a point where I didn't really want anyone else to do any good. And I think it was a bad attitude as a kid.

And I have to blame my old man for it. But I would never be disappointed if someone else scored. 100 but at the end of the day I wanted to be I wanted to be the guy I wanted to be the game changer I wanted to be the guy who wants and and that's that's definitely changed as I've matured but you know I think that you need those individual characters you're the winners actually the ones that are the selfish ones you know you need them to be part of the team to motivate the dressing room but really you need those hard nose guys that go out there and actually almost play for themselves within the team because they're the ones that are going to produce the game game changing

performance cricket's a bit weirder like that isn't it than say football, you know, it's a more sort of fluid game where you're left back, right back, you can think they said, well, I've had a good game, and there's not much I can do about the fact we've lost 3-0, because it's all happening elsewhere on the pitch. In cricket, you get the chance to be a hero and walk off as a member of the losing team, and we saw it. I mean, Ben Stokes hit that 155 at Lords. It's one of the most remarkable innings you could wish to see, but he was still devastated at the end of that, because I suppose because he was captain, he himself over the line.

But we've commentated with a man. I mean, Jeffrey, Jeffrey, boy, God, I'm not sure that Jeffrey, Jeffrey would necessarily have been too disappointed. If he'd got that 155, he'd have focused on the runs, wouldn't you? But that was also probably one of the reasons why he was what he was, and actually why he was, you know, one so good, and two, he achieved what he achieved, because that was his mentality. And it's not for everybody, but actually when you got that kind of resilience

and you got that kind of mindset, sometimes you are tough to be. But I think this level, you know, when you're talking about county cricket, and a lot of these guys playing county crickets, do they care as much? You know, this level is the very, if you don't care at this level, if you don't care for the team, if you don't care for your country, if you don't care for the ashes, and you just care for yourself, I think that's beyond stubborn and driven. That's almost to a point where you're actually not a particularly nice person.

Now, you've mentioned your dad, and it's your dad that got you into cricket, right? And he said, Dad, that I've heard, would have a strip cut in your back garden. That's right. And hurl the ball at you as quickly as he possibly could. Tell me the background to all that. Yeah, I mean, I was lucky with my dad. You know, he worked, as I do now, a lot around the world, traveled a lot. I didn't see him that much.

But one thing he would always do. Like, sport was the foundation of my childhood and my education, really, and development as an individual. It's why I'm so passionate about it now. I think it's really lacking with the kids growing up today in terms of what it can teach you. But every time he'd come home, we would play sport. And cricket was my sport. So, yeah, we had a little strip that he would mow out in the back of the garden.

And fair play to him. I mean, I would tonk him all over the garden. And he would go, and we'd only have one ball. And he would go, there to get it, there to get it. But every ball that he bowled, he was trying to either get me out or take my head off. And it didn't matter how I was 12 or 13. That was just how I was born. You know, when you do hit me all over the garden, it's because you're good enough.

It's because you've earned it. It's not because I'm doing one under their arms. go on hit that one son it was like and he'd be screaming you know he'd take the stumps out the ground he'd be celebrating around the garden i was like 12 you know but that that's how i was brought up so he loved cricket and to this day loves cricket i mean he's as we discussed you know he's a member of the essex over 70s team still a little bit of controversy whether that's b's or a's because you know he didn't mention that the first time but he did make it in the a team and very you know his bodies he's run a lot of marathons and played a lot of cricket his body's not

holding up too well, but he loves it. He bought a house, actually, many years ago, in East Hanninfeld. Part of the grounds of the house holds East Hanninfield Cricket Club, and it's your job as the homeowner to kind of either see if that club exists or you just knock it down and build something else on it. And when he bought the house, they were dreadfully concerned, maybe because of his reputation that that would now be, you know, taken down. And he's, you know, he spent a huge, his chairman, a president over there.

You know, we've done a lot of work to the clubhouse. East Hanningfield Cricket Club is a great little club, and he is very passionate about cricket. Not so much on a business level, because we've never really been involved in a business level, but still plays to this day and still a member of the Essex team. And is it true that he thought he might have got selected for England over 70s? Yeah, it's such a great story.

I mean, I love winding my old man up. We rib each other non-stop, and, you know, he was in the Essex over 70s team. I found out he didn't tell me that it was the B team. You know, I mean, I thought, firstly, I thought, how can you even have two teams in the Essex over 70s? I didn't know whether they'd be able to find 11 men, you know, and then all of a sudden he started doing well

when he got in the Essex A team. And he said to me, you know, as he does, very ambitious. You know, I reckon I'm going to get in the England team, you know. I think there's a tour coming up. I think they were touring Australia or something. I said, you know. So all of a sudden, he was in the office, and he received like a letterhead in the mail.

And he comes through, and it's got England cricket at the top. And the subject matter is England cricket. tour of Australia. And he was like, I cannot, but I can't wait to tell my son. Yeah, exactly. And then it said, Dear Mr. Hearn, you know, because of your love for the game and, you know, your participation in the Essex over 70s, we would be absolutely delighted if you could write the four word for the upcoming magazine. And he was absolutely sick as a parrot. You know, I don't even think he did.

I think he stuck it straight in the bin. But, yeah, he's a competitor. And I think he's great. I mean, I think sport at all levels. I mean, again, going back to participation of sport, the way it can round an individual respect, discipline, manners, winning, losing, physical health, mental health, all the things that are essential to kids.

Even the older generation, you know, myself, I feel great when I play sport, like competitively, team sport, and for someone of his age to still get the opportunity to go out and play competitive county cricket. It's wonderful. Do you need that sense of competition, you and your dad? I mean, obviously, you're very competitive with each other would come up to that second.

But, you know, there's a lot of what's called jazz habits, cricket if you like charity games what have you you know I've played a few of the Lord's Taverners and it is great fun it's all sociable and that but I actually miss I miss hating my opponents yeah and you have to sort of you know sometimes you have to invent a hatred in order to make it work a bit like we did when Alex Gary stumped perfectly legitimately Johnny Berstow it ignited the series suddenly the the fans were into the competition as well yeah look like the players really got into it is is that competitive drive yeah the thing for you

It's not so much the spectacle it has the competition. It's the thing for me, but it's the thing for the sport. It's the thing for the, you know, narrative is key to promote in any sport and making sure that people are invested, especially in the modern age that we live in in terms of rivalries, digital media, social media. He said that, clickbait, you know, look at this interview, etc. I mean, I would be doing more interviews to wind up the confrontations involved in this series. Oh, so you get like Stokes and Cummins in, like kind of boxing thing.

Not even a boxing thing. I want to create aggravation, rivalry. I want to create entertainment, talking points. You know, you look at Ronnie O'Sullivan. Great example, right? Snooker is perceived to be quite a boring sport. You know, all of a sudden, Ronnie O'Sullivan comes out. This other player says something about him.

He said something about, you see it translate through ticket sales, through viewership, through audience, and that's the same here. I don't think we do enough in cricket to actually educate people of the rivalries. You know what goes on in that dressing room. You know, after, you know, that catch from Joe Root there, you know, he's moaning about the light. You probably go back there. There's a, could be a little bit of argy-bargy. You know, someone said that.

We need to really, you know, and you look at like the behind-the-scenes content, shoulder programming. You look at what Drive to Survivor's done for Formula One or what full swing has done for the PGA tour. I feel like in cricket, you know, we need to kind of modernise it a little bit. I don't think it's necessarily trendy enough. My daughter's 13, outstanding cricketer. it's just not cool to play as you reach 13, 14, 15, 16. You know, once you're eight nights out, do you think? I don't know.

Is it just cricket? I mean, I love cricket. I grew up on cricket. But maybe for that reason. I mean, we've got characters. We've got personalities. We've got those stories. You know, and when people are talking about,

oh, he's miserable, oh, bloody, oh, yeah. But when you go back to sports that have flourished, it's because of characters and personalities. Look at what my old man did with Snooker in the 80s. You remember every one of them. Bill Wurbanick, he was 28 Stone, drinking 10 pints of play. Did they get the whole prescription? I don't know.

Tony Mio was eating pasta. Willie Thorne, his air's all gone. Dennis Taylor used to wear the glasses upside down. Kirk Stevens was wearing a white suits. And in the end, Steve Davis was so boring. He was called Interesting. You know, and it's like, but I don't know. I love cricket.

I couldn't tell you the names of everybody in the England cricket team. Right? And I need, I don't just need to know their names. I need to know them as individuals and personalities. It's not just a problem with cricket. It's a problem with sport that has become very, obviously, financial-orientate, very science-orientated, that you're taking a little bit of characters and personalities out because back in the ashes of the, you know, the 80s and the 90s, people would go out

and they'd go out and they'd have a drink after, and they might, you know, have a little roll around on the paper, weren't they? I mean, I'm not saying there's, you know, that's necessarily the way to be a great ambassador for the younger generation. But at the same time, sport is about camaraderies. it's about having fun having a laugh it's about rivalry it's about celebration it's about all those things and sport has become you know because of the financial demand you know you look at jimmy

anderson 41 out there playing was his 180 third test he must finish and probably go and do three hours of of work massaging stretching to keep himself going and it can take a little bit of the fun out of the game so i would create more

more you know we mustn't be afraid i feel like the ECB and you know the whole system of the game is very, you know, I don't think that's media trends, saying, oh, no, we don't want to do things like that. It's like, well, actually, you know, and you've done a lot of good stuff. Like we were talking earlier about sports formats now, the need for impulsive formats. You know, the audience have a much shorter attention span. And cricket with the trailblazers of that for 2020.

Now, we copied that with a format called Price Fighter in boxing, and we really copied that from 2020 and the success of that. And I don't think cricket would still exist in its same manner today. in terms of participation at grassroots level without those fast formats. And I just feel like, you know, I'm not trying to bastardise, I'm sure that word's fine,

but, you know, in terms of creating this, you know, sort of circus, but narrative, storylines, tell the story of the rivalry, because I think particularly the younger generation, I don't think they understand the ashes in the way that I did growing up. It's all a bit genteel, isn't it, actually?

And it's funny you should say that because just recently there's been, a kind of spat between Ian Chappell and Ian Botham that went back, well, it's gone back now, 46 years, isn't it, since they had a sort of brawl in a pub, Yolston, Yonksko, in Australia. And that's been reignited. It's one of the big things on Twitter.

You see Botham and Chappell, and you see their antagonism. And it has sort of elements of boxing to it. And actually, when we go and interview the players afterwards, and this has been true, ever since I've been involved in broadcasting cricket, there's a sort of determination to be media trained and not to fall into traps.

You know what I mean? So people don't like to wind anybody or something. The only one who actually will be a bit cheeky and naughty is Stuart Broad. He's kind of got his finger on the falcer. Because on one hand, the media want headlines and they don't care how they necessarily frame a player. And that can affect him commercially, can affect him mentally,

can affect him emotionally. But at the same time, I would be saying to these players, if there's an incident, I want to get these players in front in the media. I want a press conference straight after the match that night and I want you to respond

about what happened out there you know you're going to get something and next let's bring him up you know and next thing you know how social media explodes I mean anytime there's any confrontation it adds so much drama and it just intensifies

the event and also adds to for any business any sport it's all about numbers results orientated I think is the right word you know and that results oriented these bums on seats

and how many people are tuning in at home. If you're creating interest, if you're creating energy, if you're creating rivalries, storylines, and almost a respectable confrontation, I promise you, the numbers change instantly. Because I don't know, as a, I'm not even a cricket fan anymore. I'm just a casual, right? One of those guys who would pop into an Ashes game, right?

Yeah. I don't know what's going on, really. I don't know about the players, the rivalries. Is that because you're just not aware of it? You're too busy? A lot of it is because I'm too busy, but I still see it. I read everything, and it's not jumping out of me. It's not grabbing me.

I mean, you know, someone said to me the biggest cricket stars that you can remember. And I just, all I do is reel off all the, Glenn McGraw was in here earlier. I asked for a photo. You know, I'm talking about Robin Smith, Alan Lamb, you know. Ian Both of David Gower. But even before that, Bob Willis, like, you know, and that's, if those names are come into my head. What does that tell you?

That tells me that the characters now aren't... They're not compelling to me. Is it that the characters aren't compelling? Because, you know, Snooker's been accused of this as well, hasn't it, lately? I mean, I grew up in the era of Snooker when, exactly everything you were talking about, that all these guys played a different character, almost like they're part of the wrestling outfit, you know.

And you mentioned Bill Wurbin, it made my man was Jimmy White, because he was from Tooting. And he was made sort of, like, to be even seedyer than he would be one. was, you know, and you loved him for it and he would let you down time and time again, but not until the final. So the narrative took you all the way there. But look at the way you're talking about it. Yeah, with

the passion. I can see it in your eyes. You know, that you're throwing back to your younger years and you're thinking about how much you enjoyed seeing them and the buzz that it gave you. So now, and again I go back to media trained, we go back to more money in the sport, more science in the

sport. You know, probably these players now are thinking more about they've got this, you know, trainer who's telling they must have nine hours sleep at night. So after the game you've got to eat this meal here and then go straight to bed. Exactly, yeah. So I understand that. I get that. And I think sport at that level should be taken very seriously.

I would expect my fighters to be out during training camp down the pub and just socialising and having a laugh. But at the same time, every individual has their own personality and character traits that need to be exploited as a promoter. That's your job. It is. It is. That's my job, but it's my job.

And I don't know how that sits with the ECB and people like that. But at the end of the day, to make the sport bigger, you need to create aspirational figures. Like, you go to play cricket because you watched someone who you thought was amazing. Tiger Woods is the reason that golf exploded because the younger generation watched Tiger Woods and thought, wow, he's cool, he's an athlete, he's winning everything, look, you know. And that's the same with every single sport. people weren't you know the snooker halls in the 80s weren't rem because no one was playing

they were ram because they were watching pop black and they were watching the world championships on BBC and watching all those characters that you just mentioned so I thought I'll go and have a game the tennis courts a pack when Wimbledon's on and Hemman's on a run or Andy Murray's winning and that's the same people are going to go and participate if they can recognise and become associated with a player the TMS podcast take the ashes with you this summer here every Ball live on BBC sounds The Dakar rally is the ultimate off-road challenge

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We couldn't get it on the back of a shirt, that's first year. If your chairman put letters up to four pound a letter, didn't he? He did. From the championship to League 2 and the football. international leagues will bring you the biggest names, the biggest interviews and the biggest stories across the football pyramid. 72 plus on the Football Daily podcast, listen and subscribe on BBC Sounds. So let me ask you a question here, because something that's screaming at me here, I cover a lot

of women's cricket. And women's cricket has exploded in the last couple of years. A sums of money that women can now earn. I think I was talking to Lydia Greenway, won World Cup for England. And we reckon the 19-year-old Alice Caps, he earned more money, last year than she did Lydia in her entire career. And Alice Capsie is by far away, not the nice well-paid woman in cricket. We've got Nat Siverbrunt, Sophie Eccleston. Suddenly, you know, a young girl at 1314 who's got great athletic skills, if she could channel them into cricket, could become a very wealthy sportswoman.

What we actually focus on a lot in women's cricket is trying to make good, solid role models. now what I'm hearing from you is then actually the focus on the role model it's a bit boring it's a bit bland it's a little bit uncool and actually what we could really do is we could do with the bad girl of English cricket as well as a good girl of English cricket

you could do with the characters that round out the narrative so they don't all just go out there and politely shake hands to do the right thing that we want somebody like Catherine Siverbrun who gets furious and hurls a ball down in disgust You know, so that we can... Yeah, I think we need characters full stop. And I think that, you know, we need to show young girls

and someone I'm passionate about it. I have two daughters and one, like I said, both play cricket and one plays at a very, very high level. You need to show them that actually any background, you know, any opportunity is possible. Let's be honest, cricket has notoriously been a sport that has been played by the higher classes. It's not being around the bush.

I went to a private school. It was the main sport. Everybody focused on it, etc. then all of a sudden I left there went to college they had no cricket team so you can't you know so we mustn't just say oh you know this this female player is a good role model she had a great background and she went to private school and she's sort of family yeah sort of thing right family good people good honest people you know no it doesn't matter what your background is sport is available for all and what you'd love to see is people break through into cricket from you know more humble backgrounds or inner city areas where you can actually show those people what's possible. We know that cricket's not really flourishing in inner city areas or deprived areas like it is in, you know, in private schools and stuff like that. So we need to make it available to all, but those characters need to emerge from everywhere.

I don't really think a role model can be defined in any specific fashion other than a good person who's kind who wants to compete and he's honest in the game. But they can come from any background at all. Who would those be in the England team now? I mean, Ben Stokes is obviously someone. that people can really get behind. He's got an incredible charisma. He's built almost this cult of basketball,

what this team is now, that they run at the danger, they do all that. And say Harry Brooke is a guy who's scoring so many runs. He's so young as well. I mean, youth is a really big part of it, isn't it? If you're trying to get players who are relatable to the young, you actually, I mean, brilliant as Jimmy Anderson is,

he's 41. He's old enough to be. But then we're talking about the younger generation coming through, but we're also talking about relatable people. I'm 44. I look at Jimmy, I'm more interested in Jimmy Anderson. Yes. Because I'm thinking, how do you do that for you? I've got up this morning. I could hardly get out of bed, you know, and I'm actually quite fascinated by that. So there's a story in everything. When you're promoting a team and promoting athletes, if you're looking at Jimmy Anderson, we're not expecting to take Jimmy Anderson to the schools where, you know,

you're going to get an 8, 9, 10 year old looking at this guy who's played 108 3 tests and he's 41. But that's, look around you. I mean, there's not just kids here. Cricket appeals to all ages as well. So everybody appeals to a different audience. But when we're talking about participation, every time they see a hero, or they see a, you know, generally a younger player come through and play and, you know, snatch victory from the jaws of defeat or, you know, play with this Basble, which you keep going on about, you know, that's going to inspire people to go and play. And Ben Stokes, for me, as a promoter, he's golden. Because one, he's an exceptional talent. Two, he's edgy.

Three, people really, like, he's, he's a hero, right? He's a, you know, he's generally a... Well, he wins games off nowhere, does he. He wins World Cuts. Slightly controversial at times, but honest, you know, I think in his assessment, I think he's got everything in terms of the kind of guy that you can put forward and, but you need loads of them. But like you said, you need the mix.

Now, this guy's a bit boring, God, he's, you know, you don't have to play camp, all play like that, do you? I mean, I don't know. I mean, we never, this whole thing about playing aggressively, It was, when we play cricket, you had different players. You'd send in number three. You knew he was going to go in there. He was going to get 100 or he was going to get, you know, five or six,

but he was going to be a lot of fun. And then number five, well, he's much more steady. Well, we don't know. They've moved on a little bit from that. Everybody's got to buy into the cult. Now, I want to talk about you playing sport because you're promoting sport. You're obviously passionate about it. You're passionate about so many different sports.

Was cricket the one you might have played professionally? I think cricket was the only one that I could have played professionally. I mean, I played, I think, under 11s to about under 17s. And I was never good enough to, I mean, could I have ever, you know, made it to Essex 1s? Maybe, maybe if my old man sponsored the club. I don't know. But I think similar things happened to Sarri was. Listen, I'll tell you another funny story.

You know, I wasn't the best at school in terms of my attitude. and every time I'd have a bad year we'd get to speech day at the end of the year and it would say and you know the matrim sport award for cricket goes to

yeah generally to me so like he was helping out that way to keep me in the school but you know I think that cricket is still in a good place and did you want to be a player though did you ever was I loved cricket like I would go to bed

you know I would go down to you know I would write to every cricket brand to try and get a sponsorship and I'll never forget that once you know I played obviously county cricket I would fight oh you know I'd be on to Cuckaburra

to Grey Nichols to Gunn and Moore and eventually Duncan Fernley received my letter and said listen if you come up we'll give you, we'll kick you out in the gear and I went up there and it was one of the best days of my life up in Worcestershire and I used to get my bats and I would you know I would oil them myself

I would knock them in religiously every night I would go out and put a net in my garden I'd throw a ball down to myself. I was completely hooked on the game. Then I got to 16, 17, 18. You know, I got a job. I started working in Covent Garden. I started going out more.

I started thinking, you know, I would play Saturday and Sunday religiously every week and they have nets twice a week. But as you start getting older, do you want to go and stand out in a field from 10 until 7 when you've been out the night before? Then you say, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm just going to play on Saturdays in the league.

stuff and then I'm not going to play on Sundays and then before you know it you start missing a few Saturdays and that's how it goes so like anything you have to have the passion to and I probably didn't quite have the passion at that age to go and play count you know ones county cricket and I played in a generation of Rob Key was in the same year as me for Kent Graham Swan for Lancashire unbelievable spin at Alex Tudor was the year above me at London school Stephen Peters was in it was in my team for Essex Freddie Flintsoff a couple of years behind and it's amazing to see all those guys go on but they were always much much more talented than me I tried really really hard but not quite good enough so as a promoter

let's talk a little bit about the spectacle as opposed to the quality so you know you've seen both sides of playing of sport because you've worked with professionals you've got close to being potentially good enough to be one you're obviously passionate about it but you've also put on a fight, am I right between KSI and Logan Paul, which I'm guessing wasn't quite as good as say Joshua against Klitschko in terms of sort of quality. But I imagine, urge you plenty of money. I got a lot of people very excited. So, I mean, how do you feel about that? What is your role as a promoter? Is it to get the very best quality products out there? Or is the quality of a product sort of secondary to the engagement?

Well, I think the quality of product doesn't always sit alongside the financial success of the event. That was an instance where that was actually a rematch and I watched the first fire and I thought it was going to be a complete disaster and I saw it sell out Manchester Arena do millions of pay-per-view buyers around the world

and it's two guys. One's got 26 million YouTube followers. The other one's got 24 million YouTube subscribers and to my kids and to that generation, these two are like the biggest names in the world. They asked me to do the rematch. I did it at the Staples Center. We made a lot of money.

It was a huge success. And from there, influencer or YouTube boxing was already flourishing. But from there, it's really flourished. But after that night, I made a decision never to do it again. And I've left many millions on the table, but I just sat there as, You know, if you're a real, if you have a passion and a love for the spool, like I do for boxing, you know, you probably feel about cricket like I feel for boxing. And when I sat there that night watching it, and when I was at the press conference listening to those two go back, I understood it all.

I understood the audience. I understood YouTube. I understood the influencer model. I understood content. But I didn't have the same fire and heart in my belly. And listen, we're lucky enough to have a big business so I can afford to make those decisions. But if I'm going to go and do 40 boxing events a year and be in different countries every week

and really knock my proverbials out every single week to the point where I can hardly keep my eyes open, it's the passion that allows you to do it. And it just didn't ignite me in the same way. I love boxing with all my heart from the grassroots level. I go to every amateur club I can. My kids go to the local boxing club to the biggest level of the sport,

to Anthony Joshua beating Clitchcoe at Wembley Stadium, anti-Joshua fighting Dillian White coming up on August 12th flight that is what ignites me because sport ignited me and my dad always said you know if you can't be a sportsman the next best thing's going to be working in sport you know same same for you as well and he also said if you can get one percent of the adrenaline of your fighters you'll be a very lucky man and when I walk out with Anthony Joshua I feel like I'm getting 80 percent you know so it's my absolute passion now I'm going to play that to cricket because there's a lot of money coming in from Saudi Arabia

and across all sports, football, boxing, golf, cricket. And I'm, I tell you what makes me sort of feel a bit like the way you're describing in that fight. I don't know if I can be bothered with another T20 tournament in Saudi Arabia.

Now I understand why it's happening because there's plenty of money there. But, you know, when you hear sort of Ronaldo going and playing football in Saudi Arabia, I'm still going to, am I going to be bothered to watch it when I've got the Premier League. The quality of that product seems to me to be important. And cricket

feels to me at the moment it's in danger of creating a whole bunch of T20 leagues that are all a bit of a mess. Apart from the IPL, which is indubitably an amazing product in the Indian Premier League, you've just got all these other ones sort of appearing

because there's money that's there. You've worked with Saudi Arabia. What's your take on what's happening there? I think he's a lot more simple than people make out, you know, there's a real feel of, you know, the famous word of sports washing, which I actually don't, you know, for someone that's held events there for a number of years now, I've actually seen the growth of boxing in the kingdom in terms of grassroots participation. I've seen at our events, more people coming, you know, flanking Anthony

Joshua and just following everywhere as lucky as a complete superstar. We also have to remember that our world that we live in, there is another world. out there. And what you have in Saudi Arabia is a number of, obviously, extremely wealthy individuals who are just like us in terms of their passion for sport. Rinaldo and Mbapé, if he goes, are there because somebody who has a responsibility within football in Saudi Arabia is the biggest football fan you could ever imagine. And this is the Mbapé, one billion dollars. And they are literally sitting there watching Bayern Munich play say, we must. bring and Bappy to Saudi Arabia.

So someone involved in a cricket capacity in Saudi Arabia will be a massive cricket fan and they will have their eyes on or they will have their views on who are the best players. If Saudi Arabia decide that cricket is to be at the forefront of the sports and entertainment, then everybody will go to play. Because at the end of the day, you know, I mean, sport, as much as we, you like it or don't like it is a business and these players have representation they have agents and of course they're going to be made life-changing offers to go and play in a format that probably commercially won't work i mean let's be honest live tour was a disaster on the gulf

you know they've had to merge with a pga and change the format i don't think a lot of what they do will be a commercial success but in all honesty it doesn't need to be over there i mean you know the money that they're paying rinaldo and what will be in BAPI. You know, these projects and these ventures, they're not making money. You know, they're not... No, I don't say the cricket league quote.

No, it won't. But that's the concern, really, is that it's not that commercially we have to get the format or the model, right? It's just this is what we're going to do. And I think it's a concern because I think the players will go. And, you know, and I think that as long as the players

are honest, that's what I didn't like about the golf that sit at a press conference and say, I like, you know, I'm taking this offer from the live tour because I love, like the format, and it's time, no, no, you got offered life-changing money for your family and generations beyond. I understand it, I get it, and I think, you know, I'd probably make a similar decision. But cricket, like all sports, needs to be careful, and the people that are involved needs to try and hang on, you know, with tight fists to make sure that we can, we

don't just let the game dilute into different territories. Well, we've got a lot of these different products arriving in cricket, and the IPL is partly fabulous because of the spectacle, because of the crowds and of the, there and because of the characters that are created around it because the Indians go nuts for their own players. Similarly, in South Africa, they had a T20 tournament that was on at the same time as both the Big Bash League in Australia and the ILT20 in the UAE. And the one in South Africa was great because of the crowds. The other two in empty stadia, not so much fun. So, you know, you're about creating that spectacle and this is going to lead me seamlessly onto one of my

favourite sports and I thank you dearly for making it continually. popular darts because that is spectacle i mean i'm still mesmerized but don't get me wrong but people will say to me how can you sit and watch darts basically they're just doing the same thing over and over again and it isn't that so somehow you've created this wonderful spectacle with these with these characters comes back to the characters like you're talking about yeah did you basically sort of replicate snooker early match room and think we need to do that with darts yeah but they existed, you know, and I think darts is one of the great success

stories of British sport, and also of our company, of course, where the PDC, professional darts corporation, and, you know, my old man, who is a genius, saw this opportunity, and what happened is, it goes back to passion and love for the sport. We went down

to circus tavern where it used to be. It was like 900 people in Essex, right? You go in there, you can't move because your feet are stuck to the floor if you stand and stand still for five minutes. And he's looking around going, this is unbelievable. And I wouldn't have gone in there and gone this is unbelievable.

He just said, I can't believe. He's looking at the reaction of people. You know, he's looking at the players. He's looking at the jewelry and the tat. And he's just thinking, this is like another world. You know, fast forward now. It's global. We just sold out Madison Square Garden in New York.

We just did 15,000 in Warsaw the other night for a random event. Premier League, the 02, the final. It's selling out the viewership. Number two, in terms of viewership on Sky Sports, football it knocks the socks off of cricket it knocks the socks off of boxing and it is just working class heroes walking out in front of 10,000 people dressed in fancy dress standing on the table having a great time but what you said earlier was very important about the IPL and about

the perception of the event packed out you know electric you know lights fireworks all this kind of stuff go and watch county cricket on sky and see five people sitting in the in the stands. Do you think kids are going to turn that on and go, well, that looks like a big event, not at all. And that's the perception of darts. And that's what happened with darts, the ringwalk, the atmosphere, sweet carolite.

And this is two guys playing darts on a tiny ball. You can't even see in the arena. But you're not even, you're watching the big screen, you're talking to your mates, and the most incredible thing about the business. And this is where the brand is so important, where you're not always talent-led. We sell out darts events

without people even know who are playing. They don't know the line-up. You don't know in advance, do you? No, no, you can't. So therefore, that's the beauty of the sport, the brand. Of course, you need the players because they help build the brand. But you participate.

As a member of the crowd, you participate in that event. That's what's so wonderful about the darts. It's like an immersive experience. And I suppose what could cricket do to make that immersive experience? It's just fun, isn't it? You've got, you know, when you get a ticket for the Darts, if you've been, if you know the experience, you're buzzing. You can't wait. You know, you're going to have a good time. Ultimately, as a promoter, when you're providing a ticket or someone's investing in your ticket for the show, you've got to make sure when they walk out of those gates at the end of the night, they say, I had a great day. Life is difficult enough. People are miserable. Things are tough. So this is your opportunity to leave everything at the door. Enjoy great sport, great moments, have a beer, be with your friends, and Darts is the epicenter of that.

Eddie Hurd, thank you ever so much for joining us. Thank you. The TMS podcast. Keep up to date with live text and highlights during the match on the BBC Sport website and app. Just why are there so many cricket murder mysteries? I think the best way to explain it is as an evolving human drama, a contest between two teams that with each ball bowled by the bowling team to the batting team shifts the narrative in some way.

Listen to the cricket and crime episode of She Done It with special guest Andy Zaltzman, available now on BBC Sounds.