Test Match Special - Ashes Tour Tales Ep 3: Magic memories and countdown to ball 1.

Episode Date: December 5, 2021

Eleanor Oldroyd is joined by Ashes tour veteran Jonathan Agnew, 3 time Ashes winner Steven Finn, TMS commentator Simon Mann and statistician Andy Zaltzman to share first memories of following England tours down under. Plus we hear how the very first ball of the series has often set the tone.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Before you get stuck into your podcast, I'm Jonathan Agnew talking you through a very new mini-series hitting test match special. It's called Project Ashes.

Over the last year, I've been speaking to the people who are in charge of England's attempts to win down under. It's loud. They let you know that they don't like you. Got to try and embrace it if you can. We're under no illusions, you know, in our last 10 tests for 9-0 down. England have only won once in Australia in the last 34 years. But could that change this winter? And in comes Pat Cummins from the far-ready. Bowls to Stokes, who hammers it for four!

I come up against this baggy green thing that they keep talking about, and I'd love to stick one of them. This is Project Ashes. Listen on BBC Sounds. Now, back to your podcast. You're listening to the TMS podcast. From BBC Radio 5 Live. I'm Eleanor Aldroyd, and welcome to another bonus TMS podcast.

It's the third part in our series of Ashes Tour Tales from the Test Match Special Team out here in Australia. We are here bringing you full commentary on the series from the evening of December the 7th. Today we ask what makes playing in the ashes out here so special and why it's important to make a good start, even with the very first ball. Well, here we are in Australia on a sunny day

and feeling incredibly privileged to be here for maybe another chapter in Ash's history. Who knows with five test match. which is lying ahead in the future. Anything is possible. And with me, our correspondent, Jonathan Agnew, who's covering his ninth Ashes tour. Stephen Finn, who's toured here three times,

including England's last win 10 years ago, TMS commentator, Simon Mann, and to add a historic and statistical perspective, Andy Zaltzman. Let's just start by delving into the memory banks and having some thoughts about when the ashes in Australia first entered our conscious.

I suppose I remember the centenary test of 1977 listening during the night but that wasn't part of an Ash's series so it doesn't really count but Simon when do you remember first listening through the night? First part I was an amazing game and I remember listening to most of that game through the night as well. 74-5 the Dennis Lilly Tomo tour if Lily doesn't get you Tomo must

and in those days test match special did carry commentary but only the last session of the day it's remarkable to think back that we didn't didn't have through the night commentary there was no through the night television that was a 1990s thing so you had the last session of the day and I can remember I woke up every morning of that series in time to listen to the last session without fail even though England were 13 nil down and it came towards the end of the series I just woke up because I was absolutely obsessed by cricket as a boy and you were it was that moment where you know you

look to your watch and it was you know just coming up to four o'clock and you knew that shortly they would go on air and you were thinking that you You had no idea what was going to happen. Absolutely no idea. There was no, obviously no internet. There was no sort of texting or anything like that. You had literally no idea what the score was going to be after two sessions of each day. So there was a real sense of excitement.

What were the commentators going to say? What was going to be the tone of the presenter in the studio? Because obviously he knew what the score was going to be. So you could almost sense from the first thing that he said how it'd been going for England or otherwise. And normally, well, on that tour, it went pretty bad. So it was amazing. you really did sort of have that sense of being of the ashes being such a long distance away

so it was a remarkable feeling really and Tomo and Lily and then you wanted to see these guys they were terrorising England you wanted to see them in action you wanted to see Tomo and then there were the highlights in the evening every day on the BBC half an hour of highlights and you saw Tomo this slingshot action terrorising England's top order yeah I think I could probably say because only four years ago that I got to my

first Ashes tour out here, Jonathan, I haven't been a cricket fan all my life, really. And I think I could probably say, Agnes, that you've been responsible for some of my best moments in the early hours of the morning. We're more often worst moments in the early hours of the morning. I just clarify that, I don't know. Because it is that moment, as Simon says, you know, you wake up and it's the, it's three o'clock in the morning and you're kind of half awake and you switch the radio on and you're just waiting for the score.

You're waiting for that first score. And sometimes, you know, you're not fully. there and of course with you know TMS is extremely good at giving the score all the time but you might have lain there for a second and you thought who's the bowler who's the batsman oh no is this that's their number eight is in already but but I mean but for you when was your when was your first well those first money around this table will have the team photograph of Ray Illingworth's Ashes winning team uh from 1970 71 but that was my first connection really I was 10 then 10 yeah going in on 11 and so I was into cricket that

and I just remember, I don't know how I got that team photo. But, you know, looking back at it now, you know, Illy was captured, and I played on Hunter Hailingworth. And, you know, my hero, Peter Leve was there. It was a young Bob Willis was sent out as a replacement for Alan Ward. And it was an heroic tour. Incident packed, there was John Snow's incident on the hill at Sydney, of course, when a spectator grabbed him and so on.

The players all got together in the middle and refused to carry on beer cans flying, all that sort of stuff. That sort of, that did fire the imagination of it. Then, of course, Australia came to England, and that was Bob Massey and Dennis Lilly and Ian Chappell. And so just gradually, and I'm like Simon, I guess, 74-5. I was banged up at school, so I couldn't really listen very much, although I tried hard to.

I mean, I never saw the highlights. It's always been, it was for years, a real frustration of mine, that I never saw any of that series because I didn't have access to a television. and I've managed, I think, a tour here to get an old VHS of it so I could actually watch them and see Keith Fletcher getting hit on the cap on that, the actual badge, you know, from a quick ball, that's the ball being caught at cover. You know, this is serious.

This is serious stuff. Colin Cowdery going out, his rescue act and so on. But again, like you, yeah, listening through the night at the centenary test, Anna McGilver's voice really resonated because it sounded a long way away. and of course it was very Australian and they gave the score all wrong and these strange things called sundries and so you think

what's all this about but it just I think lying in bed listening in the dark I know that from listeners' feedback is actually because you can let your imagination just run right out a bit and you have to try and fill in the gaps that we don't give and you do lie there

conjuring up the images that we hopefully help you don't always get them right and sometimes they're completely different. But lying there in bed at night with your earplugs in, eyes shut, listening to the cricket is, I think, just an absolute... It's a magical experience, hopefully. Yeah, the crackly four wire, I think there's what they're...

Yeah, it's not so crackly these days. No, it's not, it's very clear. People can grumble about that a bit, but, you know, that's modern technology, and it does sound, hopefully sounds as if we're almost in the room next door. But there was a bit of magic about that, about the delay and about the crackle, certainly. Finney, what about you? Because you are of an era when you could actually watch TV

through the night as a youngster. Yeah, I mean, the amount of times I was actually allowed to do it because of school and stuff was limited so I'd generally start out to watch the first session and then go to bed and wake up for school and that the next morning. But the first Ashes series

that was in my consciousness probably was the 023 Ashes here when Michael Vaughn scored all the runs. and that's when I was like acutely aware of it but then the first one that I took a great like real interest in were the six, seven ashes and the one day of cricket that I remember up staying later staying up later than maybe I should have done

was the day where Paul Collinwood got all his runs in the Adelaide test match. I don't really remember much of the first test I mean the Harmeson first ball but yeah the one where I was like wow England are doing amazing here was that day in Adelaide when Paul Collinwood scored the runs

and then four years later I was there playing with him and I was like what on earth is going on? Like in this parallel universe where I transported myself from being on my sofa watching it four years earlier to being in the team with these guys so it was a real surreal experience. I love that shout he gave

because he hit the ball straight down the ground and he knew it was going to be his 200 and he shouted almost as the moment he played the shot and it could hear it in our headphones and all off the pitch mics brilliant moment. That was amazing.

And so what was it like for you to be here for the first time as a player? I mean what was that? Can you sum up what that? excitement felt like well I think you're you come into it completely naive because everyone talks about how difficult it is and how tough it is and a lot of the rhetoric about the way we speak about it is it's hostile is it's hard so I sort of anticipated it being this like nasty place where everyone got stuck

into you you walk down the street and people are abusing you and it's a bit like that and you're English and people do enjoy sticking a knife into you when you're walking down the street but that first tour I was nice to that in the beginning and then we drew that first test match and then won the second and all of a sudden the Australians are being friendly to us and all the other guys were a bit like well why on earth are they all being friendly to us but it's because we'd won their respect so that's my big memories of that first tour were the fact that the Australian people actually quite liked us and then on subsequent tours I realised that's not actually the case that they really don't

like us and they were just it was like a feigned niceness because we were actually beating them at cricket Andy, what about you? What was your first Ashes memory down under? Well, my first memory of Ashes in Australia was 1982, 3 when I'd have been 8 years old and I'd become obsessed by cricket at the end of the 81 summer

and my dad had bought me books, that all Bill Friendal stats in the back and it was already clear by that stage in my life that I'm playing was not going to be a huge success so I became obsessed with the numbers but I remember in that 82-3 series when Norman Cowans took six wickets at Melbourne was the fourth testing of 2-0 down

so they had to win to stay in the series they held the ashes from from 1981 and I just remember Breakfast News as a child about to go to school seeing Norman Cowens had taken six wickets and we're on the verge of victory, Australia nine down and then that dramatic fifth day when Australia almost got over the line with Border and Thompson

and then my second memory is the next day's breakfast news seeing the winning catch both and bowling to Jeff Thompson dropped by Chris Tavaray and Jeff Miller caught the rebound and that's one of the sort of strongest memories of my entire childhood really and the excitement of that thing in England still had a chance. In terms of radio, I remember my first memory of listening to The Ashes

was that 1990-1 series and we sort of tend to think of England just losing all the time there. But they went into that series having had a really good summer. They'd beat New Zealand and India. They'd had a good tour in the West Indies and won in the West Indies of the first time in a long time it should have gone 2-0 up in that series so they were on a bit of an upward curve

and then they were bowled out in the first day of the series but the second day I remember vividly sitting up at night and I'd school the next day I think past midnight and I had Australia at 64 for 5 and I remember the fifth wicket was Steve Waugh just checking at the scorecard now and he was caught by Robin Smith off Gladson Small and I remember jumping around my bedroom

in the middle of the night thinking yes we're going to be because they've been hammered in 1989 and you know sort of growing through the 80s England had you know struggled against most people done quite well in the ashes but this so it felt like this was an opportunity

and then of course ended up losing the game by 10 wickets and losing the series 3-0 and it was just a decade and a half of pure misery after that but that moment sticks in my mind very clearly and that 1999 so you were there as a journalist so this is early part of your career your first test and it's the thing isn't it

when you kind of jokingly say to a recently retired player who's gone into the press box, hope you brought your boots with you. That actually happened to you, didn't it? Well, it did, because I'd retired that previous summer, and so I did take my bowling boots out, and in the warm-ups in Perth and so on. I bowled a lot in the nets, actually, and I enjoyed it. But Mike Selvia, I remember, kept saying to me, you can't have a foot in both camps.

You can't do it. You'll get caught out. And I thought, ah, I'd be all right. And we got to Brisbane, because Goochie was talked about in a previous podcast, was out because he'd had that finger injury playing and then playing tennis. he'd had in operations. Alan Lamb was captain. And I remember two days before,

which was always the preview day here in Australia for the journalists. My little light was flashing on my phone in my hotel room. And Sean, if there was a message from Mickey Stewart saying, please bring your boots and come along in bowls. Of course I did.

And we just waited to go out and bowl on the nets and so on. And Peter Lush, who was the manager, came over to us, hacks. And said, look, I'm sorry, as you know, it was all a bit of pressure going on here, but there'll be no captain's press conference today. So we'll say, hang on a minute.

a new captain. You got Alan Lammer's captain. It's the first test of the ashes. This is ridiculous. You've got to have a press conference. No, no press conference. And so I'm standing there with my whites on and my boots amongst the sun and the mirror and the mail and everything else. And I could almost feel the eyes of burning into me, you know. So I said, well, in that case, Peter, I'm afraid I really can't come and bowl in the nets. Because that would have given you an exclusive access that the other press guys weren't going to get? Well, it would. But also, you know, I'm now one of them.

you know I am a I'm a hack you know this is this is a test of loyalty really so I said I can't come and bowl the net so so the next day the Sun newspaper around the headline Agnew tells England to get stuffed which I thought was a little harsh because but it does demonstrate you know you can get caught and as a as a as a tabloid writer and there was a little bit of feeling about a player coming in and taking a writer's job in those days anyway so that That was an early challenge of it. And Mike was quite right. And my bowling boots are still in that hotel in Brisbane.

I took them back there and just gave them to the concierge. I said they'll do something with those. So probably still in a plastic bag somewhere in the hotel in Brisbane. Can you imagine that now, Finney, that one of the press pack comes out and, or have any of them done it in your time? Has anyone come out to the press box and had a bowl? No, well, I actually do have my boots. And when I went to New Zealand with TMS in 2019,

I remember Joe Roots saying to me a few times, come down and bowl, come down and have a bowl at the boys. And I would do it. You know, I think I would do it. But because of COVID and everything here, it's going to be difficult, but my bowling boots are in my bag. And with all the travel restrictions that are happening now,

I still hold out hope to play my 37th test. You never know. Well, you never know, no, exactly. You're just talking injuries at the gamma. It could happen. Simon, so when you came here for the first time, So this is your fifth tour, isn't it, on the Ashes? Yeah, it's probably a tense time to Australia, a couple of World Cups.

The first time I came, it was an England-A tour, actually, before the 94-5 Ashes. England, they sort of cobbled together an A-team to come out here and play. And it was actually sort of a bit like Jobs for the Boys. It wasn't like they do now with the Lions where they look at all the promising young players. They're one or two promising young players. Actually, Mark Lathwell was on that tour, and he made a brilliant hundred at the SCG.

I think Glenn McGraw was playing, and one or two other very good Australian bowls. He made this wonderful hundred. And he thought, here's a test player of the future. And, of course, he did play a couple of test matches. But I don't think he ever really believed in himself, Mark Lathwell. And I don't think he thought he should be playing. So, you know, that was an eight-all.

And then 94-5, you know, those vivid memories of that first ball slater smashing. Martin McCaig, you know, going off the field, injun. I don't think that endeared himself very much to Michael Atherton. England's captain on that tour. It was a tough old tour, Australia batting first, and Martin McKay, he didn't last the test match. I think he had a stomach upset. I think

there was a feeling that, you know, you've got to tough it out. What was it? What was the Australian? Malcolm Con described Martin McKay. He was Australian, yeah. He was Australian, yeah. He was the rat who joined the sinking ship. I liked Martin, actually.

He was a nice bloke, yeah. I got to know him on a tour, and then he went on the 94-5 tour, but he didn't actually cover himself with that much glory. And Agnes, as a young cricketer, you came out here, didn't you? I mean, obviously not in Ashes, not playing in the Ashes, but you came out as a player. Yeah, and after my, well, I only played three first-class games

at end of one summer, and I was 18, and they had in those days something called a Whitbread Scholarship, which they would give to sort of promising young, maybe three or four of the time. I think Ian Botham was the year before me. It was when he had that infamous dust-up with Ian Chappell that was on his Whitbread Scholarship. So basically he gets flown off to Australia

and go and play great cricket which was great I mean unfortunately there was no I wish there had been more structure to it I mean more training schedules and that sort of thing there was nothing really I just flown out there as an 18 year old didn't know anybody I was told by Colin Cowdery

who was sort of the face of the whipbread Frank were there to meet you and I said okay thank you and flew off arrived in Melbourne 18 years old no idea where I was sure enough there's a this fellow there bald bloke had a sign up saying Jonathan Agnew. I'm Frank. Hello.

Hello, Frank. Nice to meet you. I went and stayed at Frank's house. And it took about a week to realize it was Frank Tyson. I had no idea who this. Frank was, a nice chap. I didn't know who he was. And Frank, Frank. One of the greatest fast bowlers of all time. Exactly. Frank, he liked a beer in the evening, Frank, but I mean, only a very, very, very small one. I don't think Frank would ever claim to necessarily held his drink particularly well. and so he'd have a sip and suddenly this sort of red mist would come down you think you're fast, I'll show you

and he'd grab a tennis ball from somewhere and go into his garden and be sort of slinging the ball down all over his garden into the hedges and we've scrambled to get the ball back with that famous slingy action of his you think you're fast I'll show what fast is and I had a very enjoyable month of Frank

who was a lovely bloke and he did all the coaching he ran the coaching for Victoria Crig Association and so during the week he would send me off around coaching around the schools in Victoria and so on. So I saw a lot of the countryside doing that and then go and play great cricket on the weekends,

which is quite an education. Baby crying there. To the mere mention of Frank Tyson still reactions from Australians. Terror and Australians, quite right. Destroyed them in the 54-55, actually 155 wickets in the three tests that England one. Richard Bennoe still says it's the fastest burning ever seen.

Let's go down, let's drill it down to the great openings. the great opening moments that we've seen in Ash's test history at the Gabba because people will remember Steve Harmeson's first ball but there have been some pretty memorable moments for all sorts of the right and the wrong reasons. Well, yes, I mean I think that's probably the most memorable first ball of any series when Steve Harmeson rewrote the laws of physics delivery that went to first slip and that's sort of presaged a 5-0 defeat after England had that,

fantastic win in 2005, which Harmeson was such a big part. And I mean, we've mentioned how England's had these sort of terrible micro starts in Brisbane. That first ball from DeFratus to Slater in 1994-95, after Australia won the toss on a good batting pits. Ended day one, 329 for four. And then Shane Warn took 11 wickets in the game. Nassau-Sane winning the toss. So that was nought balls in.

Things started going wrong when Australia in to bat. 125 for 1 at lunch in that game in 364 for 2 at the close of day 1. The Harmeson ball in 06-7, 109 for 1 at lunch, Australia and 346 for 3 at the end of day 1. So some pretty poor starts. Then Strauss out in the first over that Finney mentioned. England bowled out on the first day. Peter Siddell took a hat trick because that game ended well, but it was another sort of tough beginning to the ashes.

but recently the bowlers have struggled in the opening session at Brisbane the last seven ashes test there just a total of eight wickets in the opening session so that tended to be dominated by the batters early on Siddles Haptrick was his birthday

wasn't it as well I think I think the Harmeson one so poor old Steve does that and ingligate hammered and of course we're all getting stuck in and the body language looked awful he just felt like the ashes had gone already and I remember going to Adelaide

and I was on about I don't know the 12th floor of the hotel I suppose there and I pressed the lift to go down and you see it coming down waiting waiting

lift door opens and there's one other person in the lift 12 floors up it's Steve Harverson the lift door closes and I'm trapped in there with Steve

all the way down to the bottom we sort of looked at each other and we said he's actually carrying his bowling boots I said where are you off to Steve he said I'll just go to the nets like you need to the practice and lift door open

I've never been so pleased to lift doors I could flip at the bottom. I mean, in terms of the stats, it's like curiosity with the first, the end of day one in Brisbane, 21 Ashes test in Brisbane. And the team batting at the end of day one has only lost twice. One of them was England's last match there, 2017. They were 1-96 for 4 after James Vince and Stoneman have batted very well on the first day of the series. and then 1982 in them were 219 for nine at the end of day one. Other than that, the team that's been at the crease,

whether they batted first or bowled the opposition out and started their first innings, has not lost an ashes test at Brisbane. That harmeson ball, Agers, because you were on commentary for TMS. Jim Maxwell was on commentary for the ABC, wasn't he? I think it'd be fair to say that your commentary is rather different. They sound very different.

I mean, you can almost hear the whoops of glee on the ABC version, Whereas mine was just sort of complete disbelief, I think I remember. It was just so horribly wretched. I mean, it was just, but looking at it back, it's the way that Freddie just caught it and just tossed it back as if it was like catching practice before the game. And you can see a bit of bemusement around, like people thinking, does that really,

does I see that properly? Does that really happen? But it just, you could just feel the deflation, boom, because it just betrayed. I'm afraid all the anxiety and the nerves and everything else going into this into that a massive game and with the memories of the 05 series still so fresh as well yeah and it's it's interesting that game because I don't think people realize quite how hard Australia were going to come back after 2005 I really think

England didn't really get that with their preparation their build-up and you just sensed I remember in 2005 the Australians at the Oval watching the presentations and you could feel them, you know, almost saying, right, watch this, watch it and take this memory back with us because we're going to, we're coming back at you. And of course, they really hit England hard in that series. They were ruthless and they, you know, 5-0. That moment of the first ball, Finney, in the test matches that you played at the Gabour or you were involved with, you were out there for, what are your feelings on those days?

Because, I mean, I suppose everybody in the back of their mind had that Steve Harmeson ball. The one test match that we played at the Gabba, we were batting. So I watched the first four balls and then Strauss got out and I disappeared back to my little rabbit hole. Because you cursed him. Yeah, exactly. Anyone that I watched live, that game got out. So I was like, I'm getting out of here. I don't need to watch this anymore.

But you're so aware of the significance of it, of starting well. I think all of the conversations that you have in the buildup to the test matches, whether it's a press conference, a team meeting, whatever it is, you have to start well. We want to start well here and make an impression. and you try your hardest. Steve Harmes didn't run up meaning to bowl that ball to second slip. He was probably almost trying too hard to bowl the perfect delivery. So it's finding that equilibrium in that state between being really hyped up and amped up and wanting it and stressing about it being perfect

and then being too chilled and not caring. You want to be somewhere in the middle and that's the perfect balance. But luckily, James Anderson, if he bowled a ball to second sit, there would be something very, very, very wrong with the world if that happened. So I don't think that it's going to happen this time around. Actually, talking about the build-up to the first ball of the first day of an Ashes test match. In the 13-14 series here, it was Kevin Peterson's 100th test match. And when you play your 100th test match, you get a commemorative silver cap on a tray.

It's beautiful in this glass box that says, congratulations, you've played 100 test matches. And Charles Clark came out to the middle to present Kevin with his. silver cap and i remember him doing this speech about saying what a great servant kevin had been rightly so to to the england team and gave me his silver cap i remember kevin looking at it really proud i've played a hundred test matches and then he looked a bit closer and it said kevin peter son they spelled his name wrong on the silver cap so i had to give it back to giles clark pretty annoyed like i've played a hundred test matches for you i've been one of your greatest players ever and you can't even spell my name right on my commemorative hat and that was a signal

of how the rest of that series was going to go. Do you have to wear the silver cap during the game? It would make it a lot hotter and a lot harder than it already is. Quick thought about NASA, that toss, that notorious toss. Well, all I can remember about that was that I was sent down because there was a sort of general air of disbelief and I don't think we were actually on the air at the time. But so word got out that England won the toss and put Australia in.

And I think Peter Baxter, the producer at the time, so sent me downstairs to check. I went down to where the dressing rooms are, and there's a lot of shouting going on. And I asked someone down, how come with one of the other players. I think the 12th man onwards have sort of evacuated the dressing room.

And I asked one of them, you're right, we've stuck him in. They sort of, yes. And that was really all I can remember about the actual thing, but there was a general, total disbelief at what had happened. I think it did do a little bit, but again, we didn't bowl very well, but it was more of a defensive decision, really. I think NASA worked out some sort of way in which he thought

it was a least likely way that England would lose the game by letting them back first, but it was a bizarre one. Well, actually, if you listen to Nathan Lehman on this, who is England's stats guru, he says actually did reduce England's chances of losing the match statistically. I asked NASA about this, because I wrote an article about it and the importance of winning the toss, and he said, nah he says

toe cock up well you will be able to find out exactly what happens that first ball and that opening day of the ashes 2021 22 commentary on the first test from 11pm on the evening of the 7th of December I'll have news on 5 live

throughout the night and across breakfast and of course part of our commentary team will be Jonathan Agnew Andy Zaltzman Simon Mann and Stephen Finn thank you so much for the podcast and look out on this stream for more Ashes Tour Tales. And also don't miss Project Ashes,

the special series Agass has done with exclusive behind-the-scenes access over the last 12 months. England bowler James Anderson brings all the news from within the squad on Tailenders alongside Greg James and Felix White. And Mark Wood is among the guests you'll hear alongside Kate Cross

and Alex Hartley on the Nobles podcast. And that's also available on the TMS stream. This is the TMS podcast. 5 live. Match of the day. Top 10 podcast. Gary Linneka here to bring you a little message. Match of the day,

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