Test Match Special - “Beat the Aussies” is goal for Fleming

Episode Date: September 20, 2026

Stephen Fleming gives his first interview since becoming England Test coach. He discusses his style of leadership with cricket correspondent Stephan Shemilt, his attitude towards discipline and how he shares the English obsession with the Ashes. Fleming also reveals his thoughts about a possible Ben Stokes comeback after visiting him in Durham and he talks about his relationship with white ball coach Brendon McCullum. There’s also analysis from Test Match Special commentator Alison Mitchell & former Test player Dawid Malan.

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from live streaming the BBC News Channel and acclaimed documentaries to in-depth analysis and features. Visit BBC.com forward slash subscribe to find out more. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello and welcome to the Test Match special podcast. Alison Mitchell here with you at Old Trafford looking out over a sunlit ground at the moment ahead of the England-Shranker T20 Men's International. And on the outfield, we have already had a meeting of a very particular trio.

Brenda McCullum, the white ball coach alongside mentor Kevin Peterson. And standing alongside them in that huddle was Stephen Fleming, the new red ball, the new test coach for England men. He's here in the country. He's here in Manchester. He's been in various other places as well, meeting with people, meeting with players. And I'm in the commentary box with our cricket correspondent, Stefan Schemult. And alongside us also is T20 World Cup winner, David Milan. And we'll hear from both of those in a few moments.

but Stefan has had a chance to meet with Stephen Fleming and have a sit down with him ahead of him, beginning his tenure formally, as the team head towards the South Africa tour. So let's have a listen to Stefan's chat with Stephen Fleming. Stephen, first thing says, it's lovely to meet you and welcome, and welcome to the weather. How's your week been?

It's been busy, but it's been excellent. From sort of Monday through to an hour, it's been a few miles. and during that time a lot of thought, but most importantly meeting and reconnecting with a lot of past players I play with who are now coaching or in senior roles at counties, and also meeting and introducing myself to some international players. It's been a great way. I guess that's the point, isn't it? This isn't completely alien to you. There's a lot of things that you'd be doing that'll be bringing back memories and lots of familiarity. Yeah, and it wasn't a job, actually. It was a pleasure. I had some great years playing county cricket in particular with Nottinghamshire. So to be able to go down the N1 to certain grounds and remember games and people and it's all part of it.

It's a really important aspect to me. I love that time. I was coming to the end of my captaincy and I was on the edge of falling out of love with the game and I got a call from McNeil to Captain Nottingham and I always fell back in love with it but it kept me in the game in a really positive space and they were three of my best seasons.

Was that connection with the English? game part of the reason why you took the job? Yes. Yeah, easy answer. And I didn't realize how disconnected I'd been until I got an opportunity with the Southern Brave. And those two years again, rekindled those feelings of joy and fun and how cricket should be played and my respect for English cricket. But that respect would have been there anyway if you hadn't have got a call from Rob Key. So what was that conversation like? Were you supposed to surprised to be asked. Did you need much persuading? It was an interesting process because I was just in the process of leaving Chennai, which had been 18 years of sort of my life in that franchise world.

So there was a lot of thought around that. So it was a period where I was resetting to do something. And they say timing is everything. And Brendan, the position became vacant at the similar time. Not related, but it was then a case of when I got a call from Rob was some deep thought. It wasn't straightforward because family's very important to me. I had commitments that I'd set up based on how my years had been run before that. And also self-reflection about my ability to do the job and whether I was the right person to take it up. So there was a lot of thought. It was a long, thorough process.

But once I got a little bit of a burn in the stomach, it was hard to ignore. Is there a certain, I know you're a proud Kiwi and you've worked for a long time in India, but is there a certain of a law, I don't know, to taking the England coaching job? I think it's one of the most prestigious jobs in cricket and that's the regard I hold it in and to be asked to consider it and then be selected to do it as a great honour. But you didn't take it straight away, weren't in charge for the Pakistan series. Well, I did say, I did. But it was just the case of the then there was commitments and families. family commitments that I had that I just wasn't in a position to break. And that's more about me as a person than dropping everything and coming over here. There were responsibilities that I had. I watched and connected with Joe and the team straight away once it was approved.

I've got a stress fracture in my left ear from phone calls. We'll deal with that. But it was about attitude and then connecting to the team in a a way that from remotely it was almost not always an advantage but watching them operate just now with eyes wide open as to what was expected the opportunity of the challenges and there was also another part introducing Joe back into captaincy and Marcus Triscothic the opportunity to to do the head coaching role that's that's part of why i love the game is bringing people forward developing people leadership and they did brilliantly and it gave me an opportunity to catch

breath and then start pretty fresh with a clear mind on what's ahead. What conversations have you had with Brendan McCollum both before you agree to take the job and after that? Really honest ones and that's how our relationship is. It's based on a lot of shared experience and he was, yeah, he was heart sore that worked out that way but he was incredibly positive about the experience and opportunity and he's been unwavering on that, his belief about where these teams can go strong and that was a that was a major part when I was talking to him about doing the role also he had been treated

within the ECB which is another question and that again was very very positive so he he really endorsed the opportunity and that was a big part although I think I knew internally that it was something that I was wanting to do and was going to do do you take us inside that relationship that you have with with Brendan you obviously go back a long way friends teammates business partners What's that like? I'll bet on the favourite and he'll bet on the longest old as possible. So somewhere in the middle. Look, I love his confidence and his aggressive nature.

Balances are more measured. Somewhere in between we've got a beautiful working relationship with a huge amount of respect. I have so much respect for what Ben Stokes and Brendan did with this English side, what, three years ago? That changed the landscape of cricket and that's a really powerful thing. And I was in awe with what that team were doing and how they were doing it. The last 12 months, the evolution piece teams caught up.

There was talent that was lost. A lot of reasons why it's sort of just flagged, but that's now my opportunity, but doesn't change the respect I have for what they did with this English song. You just said reasons why the last 12 months maybe didn't go the way that Ben and Brendan wanted them to. What are your thoughts on those reasons? Well, it's a thousand wickets lost. Anderson Broad and then Wokes. others caught up. When you do something special and you start doing it differently, everybody else takes a bit of time, then they catch up.

So the pressure then goes on evolution and that can create some challenges. Not being in a workings, that's my take on it. The ashes wasn't what they wanted and that's what this team has measured on. And again, all I can think about is now my opportunity to pick it up and maybe add my style, which is looking at personality a little bit more measured. You just thought style is a word you just mentioned. Does a test cricket team have to have a style? Do you have to commit to a brand? That's a really good question, actually.

I don't think so. I think the greatest thing for a team to do is to be able to play conditions and situations, both pressure and positive. And one thing that this team has earned is the ability to be positive. One of the other aspects is winning the tough moment. and making sure that we don't just play entertaining cricket and win moments but win games. And cricket is a really tough game. It keeps asking you questions.

So winning those moments and being able to identify them and work our way through them. And I look at a captain like Joe, Joe is a brilliant problem solver. So relying on him to create a style of play based on the way he plays is almost a perfect blueprint. And that being said, a team doesn't necessarily have to commit to a style that needs to adapt and all those sorts of things. What's your style as a coach? How would Stephen Fleming describe? Oh, look, I'd love to be, if people watching the team say they're well planned, there's a discipline, there's a really strong basic structure to what we're doing, but there's also

a bit of flair. And that's not necessarily me in the way I played, but it's what I loved about this English side when they started playing like this. So it's taking the best of that and adding, yeah, that planning aspect, if the supporters would look at us and say, yeah, they're disciplined, well-planned and competitive. That's a good start. Tell me if this is wrong, but I've read my cussie saying that sometimes you turn up in fancy dress. That's wrong.

That's wrong. Is it? Well, there have been times where you might want to shake things up a little bit. Yeah. Might that happen again? I'm really uncomfortable. No, I do like thinking outside the square. And in franchise cricket in particular, you're constantly meetings and trying to create an environment that is fun.

And sometimes, yeah, you might push the boundaries a little bit. So we'll wait and see. Thanks, Hustler. Yeah. There's a more serious side to what's happened with the England team over the past 12 months. Things that have gone on off the field. I know that you haven't been involved in the setup. But what's your observation been from a distance? Yeah, it's been disappointing.

because I understand what people are working to and working towards and these events can derail a lot of things and divert attention from what really matters. So yeah, I'm disappointing and I look at it and again the opportunity to make sure the standards within a fitting of an international cricketer and I'm going to use Joe again. When I look at epitomising an international cricketer and what they should stand for, it's Joe. And when he sits in an interview and openly expresses his disappointment or uses hacked off, then I know there's work to be done.

And also a little bit of sort of the belonging piece, identity piece, what are we doing here together? How can we be the best version of ourselves? So a lot of that work and that's begun. That's one of the key things for me to develop and my work with Joe, that's begun. What's your attitude towards discipline? Is that something you're quite strict on? Well, I think you need to behave in accordance of your position, and we're in a very privileged position.

And it's understanding that privilege, but also what goes along with it. It can't be convenient. You can't have, when it suits you, do the right things, and then you don't want it to suit you, not. So you've got to live it every day. If we can create something where you want to live it every day and be better, that's really powerful. That's unicorn thinking, but that's where we need to get to. And the disappointment is that there are times when the players have just, forgotten to be living at that moment and that's an area of work on.

We had a development last night with Bride and Cass. Before then the ECB said he is available for selection. I realize there's a process to be going through at the same time. Do you want him in your squad? Yeah, it's a tough one. It's still part of the process so that limits a little bit until that is completed. But he is available. Yeah, he is available. There's there are standards. We pick on runs and wickets primarily, but I think it's foolish not to say there's also standards need to be set. And we just got to be careful to make sure that the people that represent us are the people that the club cricketers, the people that follow English cricket, are proud to have us wearing the lines.

There was another player who said he's not available to play for England in test cricket. That's Ben Stokes. Have you spoken to him this week? Yes, yeah, I have. I was lucky enough to catch Ben up in Durham. He'd just come off another monster bowling spell. And he was in a great space. He was really happy. He was enjoying his time with Durham. He's got a good winter plans with the family and very much at peace with his decision. And when a player makes that decision to retire, I respect that 100%. So there'd be no sense of you giving him a phone call. If he wanted to change his mind,

he'd have to come to you. Yeah, I respect this decision too much to try and turn that around and question that is wrong. And I know how much goes into that type of decision. And I respect that. Let's look to the future. Your first assignment hands-on is going to be in South Africa. I know you've been watching closely the Pakistan series, Marcus and Joe, and even some of the players have been saying how you've been in contact with them. What's your view of where this team is and where it needs to go? Look, I think it's exciting. One of the dark arts of coaching is getting a team at the right time. And I feel like it's pretty close to that time. And I am really looking forward to going to South Africa with this group. I've had the pleasure of doing SA 20 for four years. so familiarity with the grounds and conditions is going to help. And I'm really excited to be with these guys going over. I think it's going to be great.

You wrote a book, I think. Didn't you, about time in South Africa? Yeah. Books don't count anymore. Right, okay. Yeah, it's got to be a podcast. I haven't done one. But the makeup of the team, so for example,

obvious shift in the England 11 since Ben Stokes retired for Seams this summer quite because of the conditions. How do you see that formation? do England need to uncover an all-rounder, a front-line spinner? What are your thoughts on that? Well, it was impressive. Watching the four of them operate was really impressive. And not only that, there's some guys in the wings as well,

which is always a nice strength to have. Yeah, there's been a lot of commentary around developing more spin. But when you look at the amount of spin that's bold and county cricket and test cricket, you can understand why that is in the shadows a little bit. But that doesn't mean we need to ignore that. Maybe look at it other ways to develop it, especially with Bangladesh coming up in the new year. And then obviously India at some point in 12, sort of 16 months time.

So yeah, there is certainly a push for that. You can't replace Ben Stokes as an all-rounder, but looking at the youth that's coming through and nurturing that, and that was one of the other benefits of doing the county rounds is seeing the talent that's there. There is talent there, and there's opportunities through 19s and lions and there will be opportunities as test players players, and the white ball was separate for guys to emerge.

So I think from what I've seen and what I've heard, talking to county coaches, we're in a good space. Just as a New Zealander and looking ahead to what's coming in the future, do you ever look at English cricket and think, wow, you guys are far too obsessed about the ashes? No, because I have an obsession with it as well. New Zealand has an obsession with it. We love it.

But to the results of the England team, are they two linked? We want to beat Ozzy. Okay. Yeah, so we're heavily linked it. England performances. We have a deep desire to beat Australia and everything as the little cousin. So, no, we are linked and that is, I am incredibly excited about being part of it. You don't think you're ever going to get that opportunity. So to have that opportunity and be part of it, I can't wait.

And I want to be my best self and have a team that represents itself in the best possible way. I've got a vision of that and it's aspirational. It would be brilliant. And just finally, and sometimes I feel like this is a silly question. of asking someone what they want to achieve because you know you want to win everything you want to win as many series and many matches as possible but if you could throw you the forward to to the time when you're no longer England coach what would you be able to like to say that you have you have done well pass it on in a position of strength i think that's a real powerful

thing for a coach to be able to do is actually leave and pass it to someone who has equal or more success that that is one one driver uh to look back and yeah selfishly to have ticked some of those marque series off or a World Test Championship. You know, I'm very ambitious, but I'm also realistic, because it's the New Zealand way. You're a downplay it. But, yeah, I dream and have a vision of that for sure.

And beat the Aussies. Beat the Aussies. Good look. Thank you for your time. Thank you. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says.

good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com. With a subscription to the BBC website and app, you can now get early access to your favorite BBC podcasts. Listen to shows like, you're dead to me, in our time,

good bad billionaire, and more. Plus, there's all the other great benefits you get with a BBC subscription, from live streaming the BBC News Channel and acclaimed documentaries to in-depth analysis and features. Visit BBC.com forward slash subscribe to find out more. All right. So that was Stephen Fleming, the incoming men's test coach chatting with Stefan Schemelt. Stefan, very interesting conversation that was and eminently sensible the words he speaks. And also one of the first things that struck me was when he spoke of self-reflection. And was he good enough to do this job?

He's someone who's had a great deal of humility as well. Yeah, you know, incredibly measured and thoughtful and honest. I'd not met Stephen Fleming before, but he was all the things that I expected him to be. And I think we got a bit of an insight into what this England team is going to be going forward. And I don't know, maybe you could take this as a criticism of the previous regime. It's not intended to be. but it did feel like we had a grown up in the room, maybe for the first time in a little while.

And one thing that I picked out straight away about the difference that I think we can expect between Stephen Fleming and Brendan McCullum, and they are great mates, they are very, very tight. But the thing that he says, I'll bet on the favourite and he'll bet on the longest odds possible. And I think that is, even from not knowing either of them particularly well at all, certainly in the case of Stephen

Fleming, you could say, well, that is the difference between them and that is going to be the big difference of what we can expect from Stephen Fleming's England team. He got asked about Flemble in the press conference beforehand and he shut that down straight away. So that is what we're going to get from Stephen Fleming. I think what from my point of view as a journalist, it might be a little bit less volatile, a little bit less eventful, maybe less interesting, but England might win more. And that's what the fans want. I've been fortunate to share a comment box with Stephen Fleming and Brenda McCullum, you know, at different times. And Stephen Fleming

certainly has an aura when he walked into the room. He was very articulate, is articulate. You heard that in that interview there with you, Stefan, as well. And David Milan is with us here as well. Former England test cricketer and T20 World Cup winner to boot. Have you had anything to do with Stephen Fleming across your career, David? Not in terms of teams, no, I'm playing with him, but just bumping him into him in hotels and breakfast and things like that. And he is, as you He's got a presence about him and aura about him. He's the type of person that would come up to you. Generally, these older generation that have done so well in the game and have been so connected in the game, you know, you almost have to approach them where he's got that respect of players that have played

the international game and played around the world, that he feels that he has the space to be able to come up to you and approach you and ask you about your life and your career. And that's impressive because sometimes you feel like a lot of the older players and and older coaches and generation. I apologize to saying the older word a lot, but they almost feel like they are slightly closed off. So when you have a person like that who is open and available and approachable,

it makes life so much easier. Yeah, an aura, but not at all in an intimidating way, a very approachable way, I've certainly always found him. Definitely, and he has respect for you, whether you've done well in international cricket, but he has respect for you as a person. And I think that helps. You know, you do come across a lot of the legends

of the games that have that aura about them and they're not really approachable. And you feel really uncomfortable being around them where he does not have that about him at all. You feel like you can sit down at him with any time of the day and grab him for a chat and he's always available and he always has time for you. And that's a great trait to have as a person,

especially a leader and a coach as well. Having listened to that chat with Stefan, we'll come back to Stefan as well in a moment. What in particular stood out for you from what you heard from him? Because the crucial thing that All England fans be listening for is how can he make this test team a winning test team again? Well, firstly, I really enjoyed the connection between him and county cricket. I think in this previous regime, whether they cared about it or not, it didn't

really come across like county cricket was vitally important to them. And I think that really riled a lot of players up that were still playing county cricket, whether that be coaches, players, just people involved in the game. And I think he's the way he spoke, it showed respect for the county game, it showed that he cared about it, it showed that he had really good experiences of it. And I think that puts them in really good stead. So once again, if you're an aspiring player trying to play cricket for England, you know that he's going to watch it because he showed that he's got that care and respect for it.

I also like the way that he was quite clear that it doesn't have to necessarily be a brand of cricket that he wants to play. But he believes that the team will sort of be mirrored in the image of Joe Root and the captain. And I guess that's why they went back to him as captain, is they felt they needed a change. They needed a different approach to the way that they've gone about. out their game in this new era that under Stephen Fleming and he decided he needed a captain that is able to live and die by the way he he does his things on and off the field and I think that's important. You know, it's very difficult if you have a captain. Say you made Harry Brooke captain and he wants to be attacking and you've got Stephen Fleming and he wants to approach the conditions. That becomes

quite difficult to navigate and you almost felt that was a little bit towards the end of the McCullum and Stokes era. You felt there was a little bit of a pull towards one direction and the other whereas this feels like It's been told it's Joe Roots team. We're going to play in your image, whether it be the way you approach certain situations, you problem solve, and the way he conducts himself off the field as well. Yeah, very clear, Stefan, insofar as he doesn't need a style of play to be labelled, but he also has clarity on how he does want them to play. Yeah, and he was talking about that he'd like supporters to look at his team

and think that they are well planned and they are disciplined and that they have, they have a method of what they're trying to do. And he also talked about a test match team adapting to the conditions and reading a situation. And that's a lot of the things that we have been asking of this England team to do for a little while. I'll keep going back actually to a press conference that I heard from Steve Smith during the Ashes when he was standing in as Australia captain. And he got asked, what is the Australian way of playing test match cricket? And he talked about adapting in real time, knowing what to do in a certain. and situation competing actually just being competitive in a certain moment and sometimes that is what

england haven't always done look i do feel that sometimes the criticism of um england under mccullum and stokes wasn't always fair that they sometimes got um beaten with a stick of this style the basball style that that is what brought them success in the first part of of their reign and that they always stuck to that that is not true they didn't always always play that way. What they did sometimes as they reverted to a style of play when they thought they were uncertain or they were up against it or they thought that this is going to be difficult and this is our way of getting out of this trouble, run towards the danger, wasn't it? That was their mantra.

Get your way out of it. Exactly. Yeah. And they didn't always do that. But what Stephen Fleming is saying is, well look, there are different ways to get out of trouble, to play in a situation. And that is, I think, what frustrated supporters in the end, that sometimes England just didn't adapt to those situations, that their way of getting out of trouble was to run towards the danger. Yeah. And selecting the right players in order to do that is going to be key. And there are a few things that, you know, he will have on his agenda that he will, you know, need to look at and some of those, you know, player conundrums when it comes to that South Africa at all. Yeah, exactly. And that goes back to his point about county cricket is what type of player is he looking for? He'll have to communicate that. whether that's in the press or whether that's to county cricketers and coaches in general, because at the end of the day, they always sort of say what type of cricketer they want to produce for English cricket. So that will be the start.

He then has to find a way of getting the players that have played the last little while that are now injured, that have missed this last series, getting them back in the team. And you're right, he has to decide which players are going to fit in with the roles and the way that he wants to approach the game. So as an opening batter, does he want a traditional opening batter? does he want the game to be attacked as it has been in the past. And I guess that's the challenge for any coach. Come in with a clear mind, find the players that you want.

And the challenge will be for Stephen Fleming as well. He hasn't seen a lot of county cricket. He follows it and he has an idea of what's going on. He was involved in the 100 for two years. So he does have a rough idea with players in whiteball cricket, but he still has to, I guess, decide which players and characters he wants in that test cricket. And does he have a good enough, strong enough relationship with Brenda McCollum that they can work together, on the red ball, white ball player scheduling aspect, Stefan,

because it's always been that competing tension. If Stephen Fleming and Brendan McCollum can't work it out, I'm not sure which combination of coaches England could turn to. But you're right in that it hasn't really worked for England in the times that they've done it before. First, when it was Andy Flower and Ashley Giles, that just fell apart pretty quickly actually. And then when Matthew Mott and McCollum worked together, yes, England went and won a T20 World Cup in Australia very quickly, but that was still the remnants of Owen Morgan's team and then things fell apart for

England at the 50 over World Cup in India the following year but yeah Brennan McCollum are long-term mates, teammates, business partners. I think even in the press conference Stephen Fleming described himself as the big brother of the relationship so I'd quite like to be a fly on the wall when they get together and have those conversations about I don't know when Jopher not having a wrestling contest yeah when Jopher archers having a arrest, all those sorts of things. And he used the word as well, robust. How many times have we heard Brendan McCullum say robust conversations have gone on? It's almost using the same language. So yeah, I think they will be okay. And if Stephen Fleming and Brendan McCollum can't work together

in a split coaching environment, it's probably time to give up. And from what he said about Ben Stokes, he respects his decision that he has retired. People are still saying, you know, do you think Stokes is going to come back for the ashes? What did you take away from the manner which he's spoke about Ben Stokes then. I think I thought it was the way that he said, you know, I absolutely respect the fact that someone has taken that decision. And I guess only international or any sort of cricket or a sports person can know what it is like to have to say no more to hand hand the cat back basically. So I'm not going to wear that anymore. Fleming would have gone through that

himself. And it is right that anyone wouldn't really, I think, make that phone call to say, Come on, let's be having you. Can you come and play again? England need to let Ben Stokes make that decision himself. If you've sort of been looking at Ben Stokes' social media, over the past couple of weeks, he seems to be having a good time playing for Durham and enjoying what they've been doing,

just being crowned division to champions. If Ben Stokes decides he wants to play for England again, I'm sure everyone connected with the England team would be happy to have that conversation, but I don't think they will be chasing him. Do you think they need him? I think they might by next year, Or is the England team in a poorer place if they haven't progressed beyond him, you know, by next summer?

Well, I think that's a good point, Ellie. I think if the team haven't found someone within a 12-month period, then you probably have to question sort of players that are coming through. So I guess it all depends on the nature of the balance of the team. He spoke really well about the four-seam attack that he really enjoyed and he quite like that and about the lack of spin. So it all depends if they go that way again. If they feel like the spin, it could be the all-round. because it doesn't play a big role, then it's a different story.

But if they feel like they really need to get a spinner in, especially when they go to Bangladesh and subcontent where they really do need spin, how they can find that balance of the team, then maybe you'll start realizing that he is a massive miss. They do have a few options. They've got Craig Overton, who's done well, Sam Curen's. Back again, you've got James Coles who can play as a spinning all round. Dan Lawrence has filled that role brilliantly so far in this English summer.

So they have a few options to look at. It's just whether they have the time to try and to see. win that those guys can come through. I think, Ali, this is going to sound like a really strange point to me, given that Brendan McCollum took over the England team when they had just only won one match in 17 and Stephen Fleming is about to take over a team that has just been in Pakistan 3-0. I think Fleming has got a harder job with the personnel that he's inheriting. So if you think of the players that Brendan McCollum got,

it was Anderson, Broad, Bairstow, Wokes, Wood, Root. A fully seasoned team. Absolutely. That just not being playing well and he just didn't need to do loads and loads to get them back on track. And obviously a team led by Brendan McCullum and captain by Ben Stokes had Ben Stokes in it. Now that Stephen Fleming is taking over a team that is still in flux, you look at the 11 that's been playing in the past couple of weeks. Well, Amelia Gay, Jordan Cox, Dan Lawrence trying to settle themselves in test cricket. Jacob Bethel hasn't done it yet. On the sidelines, what happens when he's fit again? Absolutely. So there's decision to make there.

And also, as David said, we're not 100% sure who the spinner is. And for as well as the four seamers have bowled in the past couple of weeks, some bowl are still trying to establish themselves. And underneath that is not a great deal of experience, depending on what happens with Bride and Cass, Sam Cuck, Sonny Baker, Henry Croke and guys like that just haven't played much or any test cricket. So Fleming is inheriting, I think, a bigger project than what McCullum and Stokes took on with those big series on the horizon.

South Africa away, Australia at home, India away in 18 months time. And it didn't surprise me at all to hear when he was speaking about what could transpire with Bride and Kass, that it's about, yes, we pick players on runs and wickets, but we also have standards as well. And Stephen Fleming is somebody who demands high standards

and he will be demanding those of his players. Yeah, so there was an update over the weekend, Friday evening about Bride and Kass, that the investigation from Derbyshire police into what happened in the hours, early hours of that Sunday morning in August has now been closed. And with the police involvement

over the cricket regulator investigation begins, the ECB have made it clear that Kars is available for selection. He hasn't been chosen since he was dropped from the squad for the second test against Pakistan. The next time England will pick a squad is for the White Ball series in Pakistan. We don't know where the Briden Castle

will be available for that or not. what I would say is depending on what the regulator comes up with where they find cast guilty where there is a punishment to be made there are two sort of elements to this one there's like the disciplinary side of it and what could happen to bride and cars but there is also a sporting element in that Stephen Fleming Joe Roots Brennan with the whiteball team Harry Brooke they can pick who they like and they left Ollie Robinson out for two years for other reasons that not just him being a very very good bowler so how that plays out and what Fleming said about standards

may just give us a hint as of what could happen in the future. And so a final thought because, of course, a huge part of England failing in the ashes in Australia. There was so much focus on the preparation or rather lack of it. And I think what's definitely is a one three-day game scheduled ahead of the South Africa tests in Durban, I believe, before then they begin the first test in Johannesburg. David, is that something you think Stephen Fleming needs to try and get a grip on? Do they need more preparation time? Or is he hamstrung, again, by the schedule?

Well, the schedule definitely plays a part, especially when you look at this current regime in terms of players playing across all three formats. There's a lot of multi-format players for England, whereas in the past, there was probably a little bit more of a split between the test and the white ball. There seems to be a big overlap now. So the challenge is to do that.

But I guess now we're, you know, it's trying to find ways that when people are not involved in the white ball series, so whoever's not going to Pakistan, how are they then going to prepare for South Africa? Is he going to have coaches working with those players at specific times in the off season? I know you're not out in South Africa training for that specific period, but you are in a period where you can work with players and spend a bit of time with him. So I guess that will be the challenge and be interesting to see how they go about that

because you still have to prepare well. Otherwise, you're not going to win series in different countries. There will no doubt be an awful lot of focus on quite how they do prepare going forward. David, Stefan, thank you very much indeed. So we've heard they're from England's new test coach Stephen Fleming. In terms of the white ball team, while they are flying in the T20 series, they've already won the series against Sri Lanka. Can they win the one day international series as well?

Well, we have full commentary of England against Sri Lanka in the first ODI at Durham. That's this Tuesday from 1215. Do join us for that for now. From here, we'll say goodbye. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. In the early 90s, women's tennis was having a moment. This is a match that will live in the memory of all of us forever. Steffey had been so dominant.

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