Test Match Special - Ben Stokes responds to Noosa revelations & Archer is out

Episode Date: December 24, 2025

Eleanor Oldroyd is alongside Jonathan Agnew and Stephan Shemilt in the TMS commentary box at the MCG ahead of the Boxing Day Ashes Test. England captain Ben Stokes speaks to Jonathan Agnew about the reports of the squad’s conduct in their trip to Noosa. They discuss the perception of the squad and what Stokes has to deal with as captain of the side. Plus, they talk about Jacob Bethell playing in his first Ashes Test and Jofra Archer being ruled out for the rest of the tour.

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delivered every day. Listen to Football Daily on Spotify, to Football Daily on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Eleanor Aldroyd. Welcome to the TMS podcast from the MCG on Christmas Eve

ahead of the Boxing Day test. I'm alongside our chief cricket reporter, Stefan Shemmelt, and our chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew will hear from Captain Ben Stokes and will discuss the continued fallout from England's trip to Noosa following the third test defeat at Adelaide Oval, which sealed the Ashes win for Australia.

You're listening to the TMS podcast, from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, welcome to Melbourne. Happy Christmas. Jonathan, happy Christmas, Stefan. Here we are overlooking the massive bowl of the MCG. And Jonathan, Boxing Day Test is always a big occasion. You were saying you first played here in, what, 1978?

19708 in front of about 30 people for Young England against Young Australia, yes. I also actually played here in front of 85,000 people in the first ever day. night one day international in Melbourne, which if people know what Melbourne's sporting folk are like, that was quite a big event. So I do know what it feels like. I'm putting myself into Ben Stoke's shoes to walk off a massive Australian cricket ground having been thrashed. I've been there. How did it go first time when it was 30 people? Did you remember? I've got David Boone out. Bob Boone for about 10, I think. That's a flex. Well, it's good to have a decent England performance at a massive ground like this. I don't think I'm quite ready to come back on Boxing Day though, on the back of that.

you that much, Agas. Sorry to break that to you. Steph, here we are. You know, it's been a pretty difficult, reflective all week, hasn't it, really? For I think for all of us, we've all been, you know, we've all been prone to bouts of introspection. I imagine the England team have exactly the same, but they've got to go out there and play a test match. They have.

And it must be, I was trying to think of another sport where once you're beaten, you get asked to stay on. I can't think of one, particularly where you have to keep playing the same appellate. I think people might be listening to this and shouting, well, what about a football team that's relegated before the end of the season? Well, at least you play against different teams. In a golf tournament, if you missed the cut, you're gone. Do you have to hang around for the weekend?

How many Olympics have you covered, Ellie, where I don't know, if you do your events, they get you out of the Olympic Village, don't they, pretty quickly? Sure, that's true. That's true. And so all of that, I was trying to think, or, you know, tennis made you lose, gone. Test series, I don't think there's anything like it in sports, where you have to, even when you know you can't win, you have to keep fronting up day after day against the same opponent. That's incredibly difficult to do.

It's a particular form of torture, isn't it? It really is. Well, we're going to hear now from the England captain Ben Stokes. There's been an awful lot going on in the camp and away from the camp as well. We'll discuss the revelations of more goings-on around that news to trip, a couple of videos emerging in the last couple of days as well. But first of all, let's hear Agger's conversation with the English. than Captain Ben Stokes. There's been a lot of noise behind, hasn't there?

I mean, we last talked at Adelaide, clearly the ashes lost, and that was disappointing. But since then, the emergence of stories from Nusa, videos from Nusa, criticism of the player's preparation and behaviour. What's your reaction being to that, an investigation that Rob Keyes talked about into that behaviour? Yeah, my main concern right now, I'm obviously aware of reports and stuff that's circulating,

around and for me as England captain my main concern is the players and everyone in the dressing room it's it's one of those things now where you know it's the way that this has come about and it's almost like I know what it can feel like when everything just piles on top of you. It's hard, it's very, you can sort of feel very, what's the word, insular, I guess. So my main thing right now is England captain is making sure that everyone's okay. And, you know, I don't know first, first hand, what this can actually make you feel like. And knowing that we've still got two huge games of cricket to play. That's what I've got to do. I've got to show the support to the players.

I've got to show the support to everyone else in the dressing room because, you know, my role as England captain is to try out there and win games of cricket and I need my players as well to be in the best possible frame of mind to do that. And I think right here and right now, the best thing for me to be able to do is to make sure that everyone knows that they have my support, which is obviously through a time of quite a lot going on. I always want to win games of cricket for England and everyone else does in that dressing room in moments like this where everything comes on top of you

when everyone's hitting you hard. It's so, so hard to be in that right space. But when you've got the support of the people around you in the dressing room, it certainly does help. So, yeah, look, the main concern for me right now as England captain is making sure that I've got the players and everyone in the right space to go out there and try and return with two wins from Australia because that is the main priority for me right now and I'll always protect my players and everyone else in there as much as I possibly can

because yeah it's these two games are really really important to us yeah was it inevitable that that do so is going to be a difficult optic I mean even if you're two nil up going off on a break but two nil down And it wasn't it always going to be a difficult cell and people knowing that you were there and all that sort of thing? Well, I think it's when you're winning and when you're winning, it's a lot easier to sort of not do what you want, but to do stuff. When you're losing like we have done it with 3-0 down, everything you say, everything you do gets criticise, analysed and rightly so. you don't really have a leg to stand on when you are 3-0 down in a big series like this but as I've just said all I can do all the senior players and the leaders within the group at the moment all they can do is try and support each

other as best as we possibly can because yeah it's it is a tough place to be in right now but I've had some pretty good times over my career I've also had some pretty tough times and first you know this is probably the tough time right now as an England captain that I'll have but you know I'm going to run away from it and I feel like I will lead for the rest of this trip how I think I can help guys get through it yeah how will that be what what have you got in mind particularly for those of you for those who have been have their fingers pointed at them for their behaviour I mean they're sort of play presumably are they and

they're not going to be dropped or that sort of thing well that's it support and make sure that the focus is still on the cricket or the focus at the moment is obviously not on the cricket. There's a lot, well, it still is, but there's a lot going on away from the cricket at the moment. And as I said, well, you know, I'm here to win games cricket for the remainder of this tour. So, yeah, I need to be focusing on that as much as I can and also need to make sure that the players are focusing on that as much as possible as well. So, yeah. It's a big responsibility for you, Ben. I mean, you're out there leading the team you're bowling your batting all of that and you're having to kind of mentor and comfort

players at the same time that's how are you handling that absolutely look it's that's part of the job everything's easy when it's going well it's these moments where um I guess the the responsibility does fall on your shoulders a lot more than it ever has done and I will always do my best on the field I'll always do my best off the field and as I said I will always, always protect my players, especially in moments like these. Did it make you enjoy the job when it's like this? I mean, do you feel, I don't know, does the extra responsibility sit well with you? Or is it, you know, it will be a bit of a pain?

Well, again, responsibility, it comes with the job, I guess. You know, it's, as I say, like, when you're out there winning and everything you decide to do works, it's great. Everyone's giving you praise and saying this, saying that great things about year, it's ending, you know, when it doesn't quite work out like that, you know, how I handle that, how the rest of the group handles it, I think actually, you know, comes a lot of me and how I respond and how I react to those kind of things. So, yeah, when these two remaining games, you know, there is that big responsibility on how I handle myself and how I speak to the guys in there after this. Look, I'm so focused on these next two games. I'm so focused on what needs to be done out there in the middle. And I need to portray that in the dressing room and the remainder of the quicker that we've got in the series.

But in private moments, so when you go back to your room and you shut the door, you kind of feel it's an enormous weight on your shoulders? Yeah, it was like, gosh, it's an emotional job being England captain. I've done it for long enough to know that. And, yeah, I'll take it on, I embrace it. and it's definitely something that you know you're always having the back of your mind that moments like these will come when you take the job um so knowing that and fully understanding that

actually makes these kind of things a little bit easier to deal with for that makes sense but as i say i've had a lot throwing my way as when i was an england captain and i felt like i've i've handled that and managed that quite well and the reason why i feel like i was able to do that was because of the support that i had around me so yeah as i've just said there i'll always you know support the people I feel need to support around me and right now this is one of those moments. Yeah, it's tricky time, Christmas Day and all that before the match. I mean, is this thrown a bit of a dampener on all of that? I mean, get to rock up here on Christmas Day,

MCG with a little bit of training, the families get to come down and you know, kids all, some of them might remember walking around the MCG outfield the day before Boxing Day. so I hope not and then again when we walk out here on boxing day you know we've got the we got the three lines on our chest we got you know our representative numbers of what number we represent England for so you know there's still that to remember as well that we've got a hell of a lot to play for still here aggers we've got you know the badge the fans who come out here and support us the the people who have represented England before us for the people who were going to represent England when we're done.

So, you know, that's sort of, I guess, enough to get everybody up for the remainder of these two games, even though we haven't been able to come here and achieve a goal that we wanted. That's kind of motivating, isn't it? There's stuff going on in the background. I said, come on, let's get out there and show them. Yeah, I guess so. And how you use that kind of stuff, I guess, is, you know, you either let it get on top of you too much, or you can use it as fuel if you want to use it as fuel.

Certain things inspire different people. But yeah, look, everyone will be focused when we come to here on Boxing Day and everyone wants to get that win. Remember, you can find all our features, podcasts and live commentaries on BBC Sounds by simply searching Ashes. You can hear every ball of the Boxing Day test match on 5 Live, 5 Sports Extra and BBC Sounds from 1055 on Christmas Day night. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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Gift it gab Games gone The Steve Bracknell Podcast Watch on YouTube Listen on BBC sounds Goodness me He was in a somber mood

Today wasn't he Yes I mean You never quite know What you're going to get with Ben But I think there's been So much out there now Since Adelaide from McCullum from him

from Rob Key of course as well that in a way I don't think how much choice were to come out and be honest and open and I've been really opened his soul there a bit didn't he about how he's feeling and it's just very sad I mean I cannot understand for a nanosecond why

anybody thought that a trip to Nusa was a good idea I just don't see how that was ever going to look anything but a disaster if they were losing quite hard to sell it if you're winning too you get out there on the beach you're arrogant You can imagine the stuff. It's just bonkers.

It was always going to end badly. This is a group of young men who were told they're on holiday. Well, we know what groups of young men will get up to when they go on holiday. They go to Amsterdam. They go to Prague. Have a great time. Yes, these are young men, but they're professional cricketers playing for England to win the ashes. They're here to play cricket.

And I'm interested in what Stepman said a few moments ago about playing in the same opposition. That's why, actually, it's a good thing to go and play against other teams. get away, go and play in Port Piri go and play in Bendigo go and play against a different team if you haven't got the same bowler running in at you time after time go and score some runs

that's actually what a cricket tour is supposed to be about and they've completely lost sight of that I mean I thought some of the stuff that Rob Key and Brendan McCullough said over the last few days has been quite mind-boggling really

and I do feel sort of sorry for the players because at the start of all this I think before a ball was bowled again we're talking that preparation in Perth I think we said, look, if they pack up and leave Sydney having lost, but having given it their best shot, they look in the mirror, as Duncan Fletcheroy's used to say, look at the man in the mirror, and they feel they're given everything, well, you can't do any more than that. You know, you've lost, you've lost a better team. But if you pack up and leave Australia knowing that you haven't given it your best shot, I think that's really sad. That's really sad. And clearly they haven't given the best shot. And everyone, I think, pretty much. around the team have admitted to that but but to kind of go back to the noosa thing for a second step I mean as we said you were there it was the most

predictable thing in the world that somebody with a smartphone was going to take some videos and post them partly because and just actually for you haven't seen them remind remind us what was on those on those videos yeah what certainly circulated last night of Ben Duckett who appeared to be under the influence and the ECB told us last night that they're going to establish the facts around that. And that came, I don't know, how many hours after Rob Key had been speaking earlier on,

12 hours maybe after Rob Key had been speaking on to say that he was going to look into. It's hard to believe he's by himself, by the way. Well, if he was by himself, that would be quite, also be quite concerning. It would. Where's the security? So, I mean, I think there's more to come on that.

Yeah, so, and that came at the end of the day when Rob Kear had told us that he was going to look into what happened in Nuset. I think my opinion on Nusa hasn't changed too much in that the idea of, like you say, Aga, sometimes when you're winning, this is what it all comes down, but England are winning. And remember the very first basball test, so not when England won at Lords, when they were sort of all quite normal. The second one, when they beat New Zealand and Johnny Baxter made that sort of all. After that game, England were hanging over the Trent Bridge balcony, all having a drink. Remember what happened that night? Remember?

The very famous takeaway in Nottingham, Mega Munch has got a place in English cricketing history where Ollie Pope was captured, getting his kebab in the early hours. And there are lots of other examples we can point to. And we all laughed, didn't we? Because they'd been brilliant on that test match. Absolutely.

Loads of other examples. Jimmy Anderson sinks a Guinness on the Lord's balcony after his last test match. Ian Botham, he almost uses a tactic, didn't he, to incapacitate a purpose. There are a few I could list in county cricket. Yes, but also rest in the days of rest days in test matches Yes, but some of that's apocryphal this has been loose and this team has been loose and the squad has been loose for a long time They were loose in New Zealand the one-day series coming here absolutely lots of stuff coming out of that and the warning bells were sounding and they were ignored

And that is an issue that that the proper bosses at ECB are gonna have to get hold of the culture of this squad is not good and that that's the the flip side so when everything goes well and England have a drink we go what a top bunch of lads but remember before the last ashes at home golf trip in Scotland a week beforehand England find themselves two nil down the previous test tour of New Zealand this time last year England went two nil up had a great time after that they only trained one day before the third test in Hamilton and they got hammered it's just of course we can keep it we can sit here and go great when you win bad when you lose and that what

it is it does boil down to but then can you just use that only in the bad example you've got to put it to one side when they're good as well well we're sitting up here watching the England team currently on the outfield training Ben Stokes out ahead I mean he was very defensive of his players I think I guess or saying he'll protective maybe of his players not defending their behaviour but he's having to do this in his time who's was sent home from a lion's tour for bad behavior drinking basically and then of course there was the stokes night the um christmas club business so i mean he's been there he knows what it's like uh to be under the spotlight for the wrong reasons um and in a way i mean what else what

else can he do i mean i'm just saying the question there you're going to drop them well that's the only other option is you rather support them or you drop them and i don't think that's going to happen largely because in ducats case there is no one else to open the batting um No, it's just disappointing. It's very disappointing. And we've said there's a lot on this tour, that this should degenerate as it has done, but I'm not entirely surprised. We've spoken, Aga's quite a lot about the culture of this England team and how much Stokes, McCullum and Key need to take responsibility for this. Now, it would take someone very hard-hearted not to listen to Ben Stokes today and not feel emotional about that, about what he's going. going through right now. However, if he's allowed this to happen, knowing what he has been

through in the past, is there anything he could have done previously to protect the players from this? If he knows what maybe Ben Duckett is going through right now and has been part of this culture being allowed to develop, for as much as I felt emotional listening to him in the press conference, you can see a man bearing his soul and saying, this is a as difficult as it's been as the time as England captain. But he still does need to take some responsibility for the situation England find themselves in. But I'll go back to my original point is,

why are they going to New Zealand? You don't go to Newster to sit in your room and sit out at the seaside and the beach and the bars. You don't sit at North Netflix. They could have gone to an enclosed golf resort, couldn't they? I mean, we said this at the time. You know, that they actually, that we almost kind of saw it as like a positive thing

that they were out in public, were you know they were mixing with people they should have gone and played a game of cricket well I mean yeah but they but yes I mean yeah that's what they're here to do yeah the weight of captaincy as you as you basically indicated to him Jonathan you know he's captain he's bowling he's batting it is such a lot for him to carry on his shoulders isn't it and I kind of feel that that weight is harder than it's it's ever been although you know as he said you've got to take the the rough with smooth they've been good to

times as well as bad times yeah I mean he's not a quitter we know he's taking time out of the game because of mental health issues he needed a break I suspect you might want to break after this because it's as captain you do feel that you are on your own yes he's got Brenda McCullum he's got you know he's got Rob Keogne around the place or they're just all different generations I don't know who I don't know who Ben Stokes necessarily goes and talks to when he's got some family here out of Christmas his mum's here Neil Fairbrother I think would be a big Big year for it.

Yeah, I suspect so. But it's a very isolated job. Personally, I hope Ben Stokes continues. I mean, I just think he's the best man. I think he's probably the only man at the moment. To Captain England, and I hope this doesn't push him over the edge, because that would be really sad. Just charging around trying to take a scyre of a catch

and having to roll over and, you know, 10 inches. He loves the responsibility. He really does. He does enjoy all that. But it's just, you know, he's the one who having to go out there and face it. He's the one who's having to go out there and face it and face the questioning. He's the one who always be remembered as captain of this disastrous tour. And unless they can win these two games.

And you know, I've been in situations in teams where you feel the world's against you. And you're being written off and you're misbehaved or whatever. It can galvanize you. You know, you can get in there. It goes one of two ways. You rather get a complete bunker mentality. the whole thing completely falls apart or actually go out and you say right we're going to damn well show these people we're going out there we're a team and so you know that that could happen

that that could happen but they were starting off from a pretty low place on boxing day morning one thing we've always been told certainly by this team about this team is how unified they are they've always told us that they stick together that ben stokes and brenda mccullum this is one of the things that their key strategies is about putting together this England team that they stick together in adversity through thick and thin and you're right I guess that I don't know you you give in England no price are you a pro boxer all things being equal they they will be massive underdogs when they walk out of the ground I mean yes there's some English noise here but I mean they're talking about 90,000 being here yeah and we know that Australia are already missing Pat Cummins and

Nathan Lyon I mean that hasn't seemed to matter throughout the series they're going to make some changes. Steve Smith's going to come back and captained. But England are huge, huge underdogs. But you're right. You know, sometimes that can be the thing that produces a performance. We have seen it occasionally from England teams at the end of Ashes Tours, admittedly, not for quite some time. They always call Pyrrhic victories, though, aren't they? I mean, ones that don't really matter. But do you think they are, though, because actually I think, you know, there are a lot of England fans who've come out just for these two tests, you know, for Christmas and New Year test matches.

they could get some pride back by winning here or in Sydney, then that's going to be important. That's more than the period picture. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I don't think it'll take any pressure off. It'll laugh the frustration in the way that they've come back and won two games when they could have won other games in their series as well. But that's what they've got to do. They've got to unite. I mean, that's what McCullum and Stokes and the others out there, Triscothic and Jekin Patel. All these people, that's what they've got to do. They've got to get these players together. I think a few of them owe Stokes a performance as well. Oh, yeah.

If you think that everything that Stokes has been through to get himself on the field, everything that he puts into being England captain, I mean, it's always 20 out of 10 for effort, isn't it, from Ben Stokes. And what we saw it last week in Adelaide after he made his runs and he felt he couldn't bowl on the following day

and all those sorts of things. And now he's the one who's fronting up to answer these questions about may or may not gone on in Nusa. A few of his senior players have gone missing on this tour that they owe him a performance. Jacob Bethel finally gets his chance, Stefan. What do you think of that? Well, what an occasion to come back into the England team.

And it is the culmination of a long-running saga around the England batting line up, isn't it? I never watched Game of Thrones. I feel like I've been watched, I don't know, Game of Batting or whatever, Bethel and Pope for the past year. Because it was just over a year ago that I saw. I stood in Hamilton after Jacob Bethel had made three 50s in his first three test matches, batting at number three. And we listened to Brendan McCullum and Ben Stokes, give him big licks. At the time, Zach Crawley had just been knocked over for fun by Matt Henry,

but they were still giving Zach Crawley lots of backing. And that support, it didn't seem like it was there for Ollie Pope. And I was convinced that come the home summer, Jacob Bethel was going to be England's number three. And for whatever reason, some reasons in their control, some reasons not in their control England have always blinked on making that call of Bethel in the side for Pope

and instill all the things that we think about Jacob Bethel that he is a generational tallow that he's going to have a huge future that he's gone to play in the IPL with Virat Coley all those sorts of things still hasn't got a first class 100 and part of that's because he hasn't played

a great deal of first class cricket since he made his England debut I think the way that England have handled the entire situation has set both men up to fail and realistically coming on this tour they knew no more about either Olly Pope or Jacob Bethel than they did when I was talking to those guys back in Hamilton

and now Jacob Bethel has got to walk out in front of 100,000 people on boxing day and perform. Yeah, I mean it's a huge challenge for him I mean we saw him bat at the Oval in that test match and he was all over the place He's a young man who hasn't played very much cricket. And every coach I've spoken to who's come across Jacob Bethel

has said that he is a prodigious check of talent. I mean, they all have from school upwards. I hope that he doesn't look at the, we've talked about the looseness of this squad and think it's all a bit of fun. You know, because it's actually not. He'll realize it's not fun and he walks out there on Boxing Day more. but I mean it is it's asking it's asking a huge amount for someone of of such little experience to come out and

And and play the role he's going to be asked to play There were a lot of coaches who will be saying yeah absolutely right he could have done this a couple of years ago to quote Michael Powell I saw on a plane Recently who coached him at school he wasn't the least bit surprised that he was being put into this position But you know Australia's tough it's going to be hard it is going to be very hard indeed but it does appear that they've turned a page and that you will have a couple of games now so we will see how he goes because Bethel really has got the first opportunity to stake a claim to New England

for want of a better term because we don't know what's going to happen over the next couple of months we don't know who's going to be the head coach or the director of cricket come the time England next player test series which is against New Zealand in June Bethel will have the T20 World Cup

he'll be part of that squad I think to further is claimed as an international cricketer. But after that, if there is regime change at the top of English cricket, and we have just been through a period where performances in county cricket haven't always counted for a lot. We could be going into a period

where performances in county cricket count for a great deal. Now, in the early part of the season, Jacob Bethel's off to the IPL. So is someone like Jordan Cox, so is Ben Duckett. So if there is going to be change, around the top of the England batting order at some point. If Bethel doesn't take this chance,

it could be anyone who's lining up against New Zealand at the start of the home summer. You can think of some of the names that have been through the Lions, Tom Haynes, Ben McKinney, Emilio Gay, Asa tried finish the season so well for Glamorgan, made 100 for the Lions against Australia, eh? What about guys like Dom Sibley, Haseep Hamid, Alex Lees, who've been tried before,

who may think, well, you know what? My name might be back in the mix. The early part of this summer, if Jacob Bethel doesn't take his chance and we're still having a conversation around, I don't know, is that Crawley? He probably needs 100 in the next two test matches to absolutely secure his place. The early part of the English summer is going to be very interesting. And Steph Joffar Archer has given so much to the side over the last three tests, but sadly he's now out for the rest of the tour.

Yeah, desperately disappointing for Joffa Archer, who spent years battling elbow and back injuries in order to return to test cricket. Remember that comeback? he made against India in July, took a wicket in his first over. One of the most emotional, almost life-affirming moments. I think I've seen on a cricket field, and we all wondered whether or not Joffa Archer could become the bowler that we thought he would be in test cricket.

He's been excellent in this series, taken nine wickets, also registered his maiden half century in that third test in Adelaide. But a slight warning in Adelaide when Archer was limited to only 12.4 overs, in Australia's second innings. A scan in Melbourne on Tuesday revealed this side strain. He'll stay around the squad for the fourth test.

Then he'll go back to the UK to be assessed. England will wait to see on Archer's availability for the T20 World Cup in India and Sri Lanka because that only begins in February. Thank you, Stefan. Thank you, Jonathan. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode.

Just search Ashes on BBC Sounds to find all our content and you can hear every ball of the Boxing Day test on 5 Live, 5 Sports Extra and BBC Sounds from 1055 on Christmas Day night and a very happy Christmas to you all. This winter, cricket's oldest rivalry is reignited. England and Australia, Dubai, Battle to compete for the Ashes.

That is extraordinary. Hear live ball by ball commentary on Fife Sports Extra. And get analysis and reaction of every day's play with the Test Match Special podcast. The Stamps out of the ground. Test match special at the Ashes. Listen on BBC Sounds. This month in football, everything is up for grabs. The Premier League battles intensified.

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