Test Match Special - Ben Stokes unhappy with criticism from ‘has-beens’

Episode Date: November 12, 2025

England captain Ben Stokes has been speaking to the TMS pod ahead of his side’s three-day game against an England Lions team on Thursday in Perth. He tells chief cricket reporter Stephan Shemilt how England will go "balls to the wall" in the match tomorrow after "has-beens" questioned their limited preparation in Australia. Steph is also joined by cricket journalist Rory Dollard and the pair discuss Josh Hazlewood being cleared to join Australia's squad for the first Test and captain Pat Cummins being out. The BBC will be providing 24/7 coverage of The Ashes, with full audio commentary on Test Match Special and 5 Live Breakfast at the Ashes, a live text service, a full highlights programme and the TMS Daily Ashes digest on iPlayer. Plus, the daily TMS podcast, extensive coverage across social media and a visualised Tailenders at the end of every Test.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Stefan Shemmelt and this is the Test Match special podcast in Perth as England step up their preparations for the first Ashes test. We are a day away from England's only warm-up match, a three-day against the England Lions, and this is the first in daily episodes of the TMS podcast across the Ashes tour. We'll hear from England Captain Ben Stokes and discuss the latest Australia injury problems.

While we're in the stands at the Wacker, the beautiful old ground that has seen so many famous Ashes moments. It's no longer a test venue in men's cricket. The first Ashes test next Friday takes place at Optus Stadium. We can see that vast bowl away to. our right across the Swan River. We're watching Western Australia bat against Queensland in the Sheffield Shield. Cameron Green and Marnas Labershain Australia players who'll be involved in that first test are involved in this game. It's been a busy day in Perth. A little bit later

on we'll talk about the injury scare to the Australia pace bowler Josh Hazelwood. But first we're going to hear from the England captain Ben Stokes. Now this was the first time we've spoken to Stoke since he told us he was out of the fifth test against India in July. He's now back from that shoulder injury and we'll play in England's tour game against the Lions tomorrow. He talked to me about a whole range of subjects including his recovery, Olly Pope, criticism of England's preparations and the reception he and his team have received in Perth. It's good to see you for a start. How are you? Very good, thank you. And it's a long time since we've seen you when we last saw you. We've told us you're telling us you

couldn't play in that fifth test against India at the Oval. I think at the time you were a bit vague and guarded about what you told us about your shoulder. So can you tell us any more about what happened, what the injury was, and what you've been through to get to this stage? Tall my shoulder. So, yeah, I had a bit of time and just let everything heal and settle down. And then straight into the rehab to get ready for here. I was never worried that it was ever going to impact any preparation or anything like that coming up to the series

because I had such a long break so yeah if anything it was nice just to have a tiny little break at the end of that although I'd prefer being able to play in that last test match

but yeah that's all behind me it's a long time ago and yeah we're in a really good place at the moment was it actually nice having a break

because I don't always think you're great at sitting still are you? I say I mean obviously I was devastated to miss that last game against India and such a big game

and would have been amazing to be able to finish off what was such a great series I had no intention of playing any cricket after that anyway I wasn't playing in the 100 I was always going to be a part of the Northern Superchargers in that capacity anyway so but yeah it's I guess it was nice just to be able to put the feet up

and not do too much but then as soon as the it got to the point with my rehab that could start hitting the ground running that's what we've done you'd obviously play such a huge role in that series did the injury occur because of what you put your body through what you asked yourself to do or is it one of those things that could have just happened

at any time? Oh, it could happen at any time. And I think, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, when you're in your athlete, you're always exposing yourself to dangers of injury and it's part of what you do. You know, when, you know, obviously I bat, a bowl, a field. So it's a pretty high-intensity role that I do. So, yeah, it's frustrating, it's annoying,

but also take a little bit of, you know, realization that every now And again, we might pick up a little niggle here and there, but yeah, it's not through lack of hard work and making sure that I'm always putting my body in a good place to be able to get through a series. It feels like we ask you this a lot, but have you got to do anything to, I don't know, look after yourself to make sure you get through to January injury free? No, that's all I've been doing for the last three months is making sure I'm fit as I always do and strong. And then obviously the test series starts about being sensible through the rest period. about how much work that I do do because I've had two and a half three months of building up to get here now and that's where all the hard work goes in that's where you put all the high intensity and tough work in and then as you get into a series that's where you sort of taper off on that and just tick over in between the games so you're having a bowl yesterday are you in the place where you're confident that you can play a full role as a Seema in that first test next week I've been bowling like that for two months now yeah a month and a half so what about this week I mean you don't always play warm-up games

So what are you going to do this week? What are you trying to get out from this week from a personal point of view? Yeah, we obviously got this three day game against, thankfully having the lines out here on their tour as well. Yeah, so the next three days is balls to the wall for everyone. Yeah, no easing into it.

So, yeah, it'll be a good run out for everyone. You got an England team that's going to play? Well, we're going to be getting everyone in our squad, time out in the middle, mixed between the 2-11s. So, yeah, everyone will be getting some opportunities. some opportunity and some time out on the middle. And there's going to be in England, 11, is it? Is it 11 aside?

Well, yes, 11 v11 cricket, in it? As in there's not going to be, you know, players rotating in and out where, you know, sometimes you might have 12 or 13, some bat, some field. No, it'll be 11 v 11, you know, like proper. As I said, it would be, you know, taken very seriously this next three days for us. And as I said, we've got nine days until that first test match. So a lot of things can happen. and yeah it's a nice opportunity to allow everyone from our squad that we've chosen to be able to get some time out in the middle

you just said balls to the wall is how you want it to be for the next few days the intensity that you're looking at from this game definitely yeah you know because 21st will come around quick I think it has done anyway like when we first got out here it seemed like it was ages away the first test and now I'm here saying it's only nine days so yeah but we've we've prepared incredibly well all in different sort of places and continents if you might say so but like everyone's you know been preparing for this series in particular for a long time now come the 21st will be good is the England 11 that the 11 that you'll be leading is that confirmed no it's nine days for the first game no in this in this week nine days for the first game so there's a lot of things to happen and everyone in the squad will be getting run out okay um yesterday we asked marcus ruskothic who's going to be batting at number three this week and he'll be batting next week at number three in the first test and he said he expects

to be the number three that's been in place for a long time. Is that what you're expecting? Yeah, we've been very consistent with our team selections. We know exactly what we want. You know, out with the team that we pick. And, look, Pope's done a great job for us at number three whilst he's, you know,

what's the saying, the shirts his, or whatever it is. He's a man in possession? Man in possession, that's the one I was looking for. So, yeah, but as I say, look, there's nine days to go, there's a lot of things that can go right, there's a lot of things that can go wrong. So, you know, you'll obviously have a team for us, you know, one day, two days out like normal.

He's not the vice captain of the test team anymore. What part did you play in that decision? Yeah, look, it was, I think Popey did an amazing job as vice captain. He was incredibly valuable to me. A lot of work that we did together is obviously, you know, behind the scenes and, you know, helping me through particular periods in games, which our relationship grew. You know, I think he got better and better in particular when I was bowling of taking on a bit more responsibility in terms of just,

those tiny little things around angles in the fields or whatever it may be, seeing certain things and he's got a great cricket bane. He contributed to a lot of wickets that we ended up getting that I've probably got credit for. But I think it's a natural progression in terms of Brookie's leadership within England. He's obviously taking on the one-day job now. So Brookie's been one of those senior players and guys that I'll go to as well as a few others. So, yeah, there was the right time to sort of Brookie to come in and be that vice captain under myself, in particular now that he's got the one-day job with England.

So I think it's just another progression with him in terms of leadership for English cricket. You'll know there's been a lot of debate around your preparation for this series just playing the one game this week. What have you made of that? Yeah, so interesting. I think it's coming from, cricket's changed so much. Preparation is nowhere near as simple as it used to be. You used to be able to come out on a tour, I don't know, months and a half, two months before the first game start. but now there's so much cricket packed into a calendar and the schedules and stuff that's just impossible to be able to do how it used to be done but we've been preparing

for this tour not over the last three weeks you know we've been pointing a lot of thought and process to this you know for probably a few years now so I don't know what else we're expected to be able to do the shield cricket going on at the moment so who will we play against and look we're about to go out and you know face a team who've got obviously a mix between our squad and also the next best play in England so yeah there's quite a few factors that play into the role of why we can't prepare how the husbands have maybe prepared in the past it's just all changed the landscape of cricket change and I think that affects preparation and how you're able to do it but we're confident and we're

very comfortable with how we prepare because we leave no stone unto him whatsoever. And just finally, something else you wouldn't be able to escape is the hype around the series, pictures of you wheeling your trolley through the airport on front of the local paper. I think they called you Captain Cocky. What did you make of that?

I think it's unbelievable journalism to be able to get that much information on a front page and a headline out of a bloke pushing a suitcase through a airport, so fair play. But look, so I think it's been good. I was a bit gutted when they turned their attention over to Rootie because I was waking up waiting to see what the next headline of me was

but it's expected that's part of being in Australia it's another one of those things that we're going to have to deal with and yeah especially some of the guys who were out here for the first time it's letting them know that that's probably what's going to be like so it's not just stuff out on the field that can get you it's also some of the off-field stuff and it's just how you take it You know, take it in your stride, laugh it off and just say that's what it is, or I don't think we'll let that affect us too much.

But yeah, it's been good. And I think it's only going to get probably bigger, better, maybe. I don't know. But yeah, it's been enjoyable so far. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. I'm Maisie Adam. And I'm Susie Ruffel. And we host the women's football podcast, Big Kick Energy.

Each week we bring you the latest from the WSL and beyond. Whether you're a lifelong fan like me or a newer fan like me and have recently got swept up in the lioness's excitement we've got everything you need to know about the women's game and chance

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Okay cool This is the TMS podcast From BBC Radio 5 Live So that was England captain Ben Stokes I'm alongside Rory Dollard of the Press Association and Rory when Ben Stokes talks there's a lot to unpack isn't he he's quite an engaging character as we know he I don't think he's dodged a question in

in the three and a bit years since he's been England captain he's thrown a few breadcrumbs in the wrong direction at times and he's given us a few bum steers along the way but he's never he's never left us short of something to say or something to write so so yeah with sort of so long since we last saw Ben in action and the fact that he missed that decider of that great India test series worth catching up with him and he had plenty of interest to say this time. I think the thing that struck me amongst all the chat about England's preparation and whether or not they're getting it right, he was really keen to say how intense that this three-day are against the Lions is going to be.

I don't know, is that a bit rich coming from Stokes? He doesn't normally play warm-up games, does he? No, he has made a point of, since he's been captain particularly, saying that he doesn't get anything out of them. He's a big match animal and sort of going through the motions doesn't do a lot for him. This presumably is much more about physical prep than getting himself in mental shape. Because everything I've heard, I'll speak to Graham onions at Durham and he says Stokes is just flying and he said he's got the look behind the eyes that tells you how much this means. so I don't think he needs to nobody need ever worry about Ben Stokes's

competitive edge but it is interested I think he made a couple of good points he said that sort of in terms of the criticism that England have had some friendly fire from home and some less friendly fire over here you know he pointed out that because as we're watching a game of Sheffield Shield cricket

right now that basically means they couldn't have an elite warm up against local opposition they would have been playing a very unreliable game of cricket and how many times have we seen that on England Exactly, yeah, we've seen 17-year-olds rolling up and bowling loopy spin, and that isn't what we can expect to see come the first test match. So I think they've judged it right in the sense that they wouldn't have got a particularly competitive game of cricket out here, I don't think.

Whether they could have been here longer, listen, maybe some of them could, but we look at England's schedule and it doesn't have a lot of slack, a lot of breathing space. So all they have to hope is that this three days that they've got is a good three days. And I suppose the other point to make is that, and it's one that's been made a lot, is that this is a method that England have used for all of their tours under Stokes and McCullum, and in those five overseas trips, they've won the first test on all of them. Actually, England start well, it's finishing poorly, that has been the problem. I think the thing that made the ears of you and I prick up

were when talking about those that have given England criticism on both sides of the Ashes divide, actually Ben Stokes used the term has beens he did he said it with a very uncombative sort of phrasing he he didn't feel like he was growling it or spitting it out and calling people out but yeah I think I think he was making the gentle point that the days of rolling up here and and easing yourself in over the course of six weeks doesn't exist anymore and nor can it they probably could squeeze another maybe another

matching but whether again whether they'd have had a full team at their disposal is another matter so listen they've got what they think are give or take the best 20 odd cricketers available in England right now and they think that should be good enough to tune them up

one thing we didn't get confirmed today are the teams for the game that will start tomorrow at Lila Kill I suppose at this point it's important to stress that Lila Kill is a public park it's a club ground the pitch we're expecting will be very different to what we'll have at Optus Stadium next week,

expecting pace and bounce at Optus Stadium as a clubground at Lila Kill. It'd probably be quite slow and low, particularly to professionals and what England are used to. We thought that maybe we'd get teams confirmed, that we'd know what the England 11 will be, England, in inverted commas, and the England Lions 11 will be. That wasn't confirmed. What we do know is that all 16 members of the senior Ashes squad

will be involved, supplemented by other players from the Lions, but I think England are still trying to work out what they want to get out of the game, and whether or not that means, say, putting their top seven on one team and putting certain bowlers on another team so they could see, I don't know, Zach Crawley and Ollie Pope facing Joffra Archer and Mark Wood. We'll get that at the toss on Thursday morning. The thing, I guess, Rory, that most of us will be looking out for are the fitness of someone like Mark Wood, but really the fitness of Ben Stokes. He said, that he's been bowling full tilt for two months since that shoulder injury.

But, and as we'll discuss about the Australians as well, just the fitness of Ben Stokes, who has not completed any of England's last four test series because of injuries, the fitness to Ben Stokes seems to hold the key to, well, almost everything we're going to see over the next couple of months. Yeah, England certainly would not want to go into a test match without him. It's something they've had to learn to do over the last year or so

more than they would like but I think the funny thing with Stokes at the moment is he's rip-roaring fit until he's not which I don't know how helpful that is but when you're looking for a gauge on him he is tearing around the place he's looking I almost want to see him not fit going into a series when he's not rip-roaring fit that maybe might look after himself a bit better I think the the the Ben Stokes who scored a hundred and took a five-foot immediately before he tore his shoulder that's the carrot that everyone is out there for and that's seeing him i don't think i've seen him like that for four or five years pre-covid probably so if and we're led to believe he is back to that sort

of level already and he's been a regular visitor to the nets at durham and he's been been hammering in there i think we can expect him if not in this three-day match i don't know if he'll bust a gut with the ball here the next few days but i think he'll be ready to to give his absolute all in that first test. As you see, he's got eight weeks. He needs to get five matches in. And on the subject of fitness, further problems for Australia today, and we're here in Perth out on the West Coast, and we've been getting incremental updates from the East Coast from the SCG, where New South Wales have been taking on Victoria in the Sheffield Shield. Now remember, the Australia Captain Pat Cummins is already out of the first test, because he's not

recovered from a back injury in time. Today we started to hear about injuries to Josh Hazelwood and Sean Abbott, two other pace bowlers in the squad for the first test. Playing at the SCG for New South Wales, we heard that they didn't emerge after lunch as New South Wales were bowling towards the end of that Victoria second innings, hearing that they both had hamstring injuries and that were being assessed. Now, coincidentally, Cummins was already due to speak today at pre-arranged events.

there was an announcement of a new sponsorship deal for cricket Australia he was talking about how they'd been sent for scans he thought Hazelwood was okay that he wasn't sure about Abbott and then later on we got that confirmation that Hazelwood will be okay to join up with the squad for the first test but the Sean Abbott is out Rory without being really mean to Sean Abbott

because it is cruel that he is out of the squad for the first test He's played a lot of white ball cricket for Australia. But this is probably a sigh of relief for Australia, isn't it? That Hazelwood is, we think, going to be okay or is at least fit enough to join in the squad for the first test because not having Cummings and Hazelwood would be a huge blow. Well, yeah, they talk about having the big three, and if you suddenly have the big one, that's an awful lot to ask of Mitchell Stark.

As for a sight of relief, I don't know, it might sound more like an alarm bell. because with Cummings going down and we don't know for a fact he'll be fit for the second test, that's a maybe, it's a possible, it does ring a question of will Hazel Wooden Stark, 34, 35,

they're not young guys. And Hazel's got a patchy fitness record. Are they actually able to stay up to speed and shoulder the burden and come through fit? We talk about Wood and Archer and Stokes sort of being, are they fit, are they ready to roll?

Well, we know Cummins isn't. you know we know that hazelwood is fit to join up with the squad that's what we know we don't know for a fact that he's ready to give them 100% he didn't bat he didn't finish off the innings you know he doesn't have to turn up and roll his arm over he's got to be absolutely on it and then he's going to play the next one and the next one and the next one so yeah it might be it might be a little bit of a reminder to to australia that there's a bit of fragility in their own lineup but yeah looking at that Australia pace bowling picture

like you say Cummins might not be fit for the second test we've got question marks over Josh Hazelwood I guess before we get carried away it's worth pointing out that Josh Hazelwood played one test in the last dashes Pat Cummins missed one so there was a time when neither of them was in the

Australia side during that last dashes Australia still won 4-0 we are having a little look at their depth chart though we are Spencer Johnson's out it's a different Australian Lance Morris is out because the big three are older there are other bowlers missing, like you mentioned, and we're now only an injury away from Brendan Doggett making his debut.

We don't know yet if they're going to call another bowler into the squad. Michael Nisa is playing in this game that we're watching now, maybe a Fergus O'Neill. I mean, the thing that struck me is that we could have an Ashes series where England are packed with out-and-out fast bowlers and Australia have some English-style seamers. That's right, yeah. Well, a few bowlers there who've had a bit of time in England recently as well,

playing, probably playing more county cricket than the England bowlers. But yeah, it could go that way. I mean, I think everyone's going to be looking at what the pitches do as well. There's been not amazing scores in the Sheffield Shield. Ball's doing a bit better than bat right now. And England, I don't know, maybe the likes of Stuart Broad and Jimmy Anderson are looking and thinking, this would have been the ashes for us, you never know. Rory, I can't let you go without discussing the thing that has excited me most since I've arrived in Perth.

looking at it right now because the WACA doesn't host men's test cricket anymore. The last time there was a test match in Perth was 2017-18. There wasn't one in Western Australia. Last time around because of COVID. And since I've last been to the Wacker, they have built what I think has got to be a first for world cricket. Because a way to, we're looking straight at it now, just over, I don't know, deep midwicket, beyond the grass bank, is a 50 metre swimming pool. and what looks like an immense amount of fun in a water slide.

Now, you've been to more international cricket grounds than I have. Have you ever seen anything like that before? I'm not sure. I have. I've got to say, I was surprised you mentioned the 50 metre pool. I felt like you're riding up the slide more than... Oh, yeah, definitely. I'm not a great swimmer, so I want to get down that slide. I think you'd go for an hour of lane swimming.

But, yeah, I mean, if they ever fancied bringing the cricket back here, then there's something to do while the runs are getting piled up. Imagine the Barmy Army over there. It'd be carnage. They make fun of it in Valbanos, don't they wouldn't have got a chance to get in a pool. So there's about five U-Benz there, so a bit of something for the lads. Thank you to Rory Dahlard from the Press Association. That's it for the Test Match special podcast.

The first of the daily episodes we'll have across this Ashes tour. Make sure you're subscribed so you get a notification every time we upload. England take the field for the first time tomorrow, that single tour game against the England Lions. three days it lasts for, we'll have updates from the game on Five Live, coverage on the BBC Sport website, an app and a podcast at the close of play each day. That's it for now. We'll speak to you next time. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio Five Live.

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