Test Match Special - Bethell blasts century in record England win

Episode Date: September 7, 2025

Simon Mann presents reaction from Southampton where Jacob Bethell scored his first ever professional hundred in a record-breaking England victory over South Africa.Bethell gives his thoughts on the milestone and Jofra Archer reflects on an electric spell with the ball which saw him take four wickets. Also, both captains, Harry Brook and Temba Bavuma, look back on the series.Plus, ESPN CricInfo’s South Africa cricket correspondent Firdose Moonda talks about South Africa’s re-emergence as a global cricketing power.

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Hello, I'm Simon Mann. Welcome to the TMS podcast where some Jacob Bethel brilliance and the jubilant Joffra Archer bowling spell has given England a consolation win. Who's into bowl to him now? And Bethel dries powerfully. He's beaten extra cover.

He's got it. He runs to the non-striker's end with arms outstretched. Jacob Bethel, first professional 100, first England 100. And Ruth, Russian. to him and hugs him.

He's played magnificently. And he's dark and gloomy. The lights are on as Archer is in. He goes after this. He's got an edge on. It's gone. Aidan Markram goes to the second ball. A key, key batter for South Africa.

To come, we'll hear from Bethel, Archer, and both captains, Harry Brooke and Timber Bavuma. Plus, we discussed how South Africa have become a cricketing force to be reckoned with despite today's heavy defeat. from BBC Radio 5 Live. So England have won this third one-day international by 342 runs.

A crushing victory. A bizarre game, really. England, 414. South Africa, 72 for 9, effectively 72 all out because Timber Bavuma sustained a calf injury in the field and did not bat. Excellent individual performances from England today. Another hundred for Joe Root

and a first hundred for Jacob Bethel, first professional hundred made a hundred and ten he played splendidly it was a really fine innings and half centuries from smith and butler as well then archer got to work under lights four for 18 supported by cass and then adio reshid finished it off with that three for 13 so the game done in double quick time south africa bowled out inside 21 overs bit marks is here so to alister cook you made the point though alister south africa despite the shalacking today have won the series and that's the name of the game when you start when you start a three match or five match series or what you just want to win it so yes

they'll they'll they'll look at this and they'll say that they didn't perform very well and a few the guys who came in and certainly with the ball weren't that impressive but after what they did aheadingly and you know the managing to hold on at lords a decent performance of lords they'll they'll have definitely taken a 2-1 series win. If they'd have been 1-1 and they won this game, you'd go home probably feeling better. The fact you won the series 2-1, you'd be delighted on the plane on the way home

or before the T-20s, but still the same result. What it does show is that sides now, if you get going batting, you can be very hard to stop, and you can see these big scores because sides are the power in people's batting. It can be unrelenting,

and unstoppable and I think South Africa's I suppose second string seamers today didn't look you know that good and then drop some crucial catches as well how much is it at this level if you're a bit off and you know it is a dead match for them we saw it in Australia where they were hammered in the third game after winning this series if you are a bit off at this level then this type of thing can happen and also against a team that has got this huge threat that actually today played to their potential. you have to be on it because it was a bigger game for England

than it was for South Africa in terms of England lose this game 3-0 huge again the inquest would be a lot more than it is now so more on for England but England played really well and also Jacob Beth thought

a great day for him yeah and I don't know whether you're going to have to interview but I think what Bovuma will say is a bad day at the office that's what they always say at this stage I think. But they can go home with another trophy if there is a trophy. I'm sure there is a trophy there somewhere. As Saturn has said, they've won the series. There is relief for England. I mean,

it's a surreal victory. It's so monumental. But the two key things, the obvious things, England's batting has lived up to its potential. And if it works, this side could get three or four hundred quite frequently on a good day. So that's fantastic. But the other things, we've talked about it's Jacob Bethel sort of a watershed hundred we hope he's got there he's got one he looked terrific there there there is so much potential there it's just how it's going to whether it's going to work in a different format in a different country this winter who knows but he's clearly got it and the other again it's weird session we've just witnessed but Archer. That'll be registered, weren't it, somewhere in Melbourne and Sydney, and they'll probably say, ah, it's only a 50-hour game, but nonetheless, he was coming in, he was bowling in the excess of 90 miles an hour, and not only that, but his short balls were well directed, they were dangerous, really good pace, and when he bowls well, he looks like, you know, he could run in a bit quicker, and he could be straining even more. It's so rhythmical when he gets it right. And you must have faced him, I get it.

you faced him back in the day that he looks he's one of those that kind of runs through the crease he doesn't have a and they always seem much closer to you than bowlers who kind of have a big gather and leap I remember years ago facing wazimakrums who running through the crease that you and he kind of runs through the crease and he seems to be so close to you when he lets it go you know he's no further away or closer than anyone else I don't suppose but that was significant I thought that Archer looked really dangerous now if he can emulate that later on that'll be great let's hear from Jacob Bethel. He is with Dan Norcross.

Thank you, Simon. I got Jacob Bethel with me. Your first tonne. Your first professional tonne. How does it feel? It feels pretty good. Yeah, a few emotions pouring through once I hit the ball to the boundary. But yeah, it feels unbelievable. And to do it in a convincing win, even more important, I guess. Oh, was it relief? Because, you know, people have been talking about it for ages, but you're the second youngest man to get 100 for England and ODI cricket. I wouldn't say relief. I kind of, I don't listen to what people. will say to be honest i don't really i don't really look at it so it was nothing to do with what other people

wanted i just wanted it for myself and for the team um but yeah it was a great feeling and and quite an addictive feeling so so hopefully there'll be a few more of them to come uh batting at four you didn't start the series at four is that has that been a deliberate plan uh no it's just well yes sorry deliberate plan with with those spinners um just trying to keep a left right hand combination and um after he kind of performed well up in headling and made it tough for us so yeah that was just something that that kind of was made up on the spot and seems to be working quite nicely. Joe Root was really delighted for you, made a B-line for you when you got that 100. What was it like batting with him towards the back end of your innings there?

Well, I batted with him for the whole time, to be honest. It's pretty special. He's very calm out there and kind of runs you through the gears. But yeah, to do it with him is pretty special, especially his dad and my dad play cricket together. So it's pretty cool that we're playing cricket together now for England. Yeah, and it's pretty special to have him out there with me. Just a great word on the overall team performance. That's the biggest ODI victory in runs in the history of one day international cricket.

It felt like the perfect performance. What was it like to be a part of? Yeah, you don't get those days too often. It was pretty much the perfect performance. The only thing that wasn't perfect was we didn't take 10 wickets. There was an injury, but that wasn't our fault. But yeah, you don't get those days too often, but that's definitely something that we can do. And it's great to show what we can do.

Jacob, thanks so much and congratulations. First of many, I hope. Thank you very much. Cheers. We'll get some more reaction from the far side with Dan in just a moment. Is there any doubt in both your minds that Bethel is a serious talent that's going to have a long and productive international career? Definitely in the white ball game. You know, you know, you've seen an innings like that and what we've seen so far in his career. And it's really interesting to see what happens as it develops, you know, when those franchise leagues come, calling, you know, how it's managed as well. You know, the Red Bull stuff he just hasn't played

enough for me and I've seen him enough. That's both in first class and test cricket for me to say that, you know, 100% he's going to be the next red ball cricketer because I just haven't seen enough of him. I don't think he knows how to play Red ball cricket as well as he knows whiteball cricket. Has he got the talent to succeed? Absolutely. There's no doubt about it. He The innings he played today was brilliant. Let's go back to Dan. He's got England captain with him. I do.

I got Harry Brooke with me. Funny feeling, I guess. You've just played pretty much the perfect game. And yet you've got to watch South Africa lifting the trophy. Yeah, well, yeah, at the end of the day, that's the way that we want to play our cricket is entertaining. We put a lot of pressure on them with the bat. And then obviously, the bowling speaks for itself.

Are you able now to reflect on the three games? Because really, you know, two thrashings, one side each, and then one really tight game in the middle. It now looks like a much closer series, perhaps, and people were saying when we started today. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, if you erase that first game, it's almost two all, one all, sorry,

and yeah, we're very happy with the way we just played that game and we can take a lot of confidence from that game there in both assets of the game forward into our next ODI series. So words of Jacob Bethel is first, professional 100 today. How far do you think he can go? Yeah, I think that's just the beginning. I said to him at lunch or tea or whatever you want to call it. This is just the beginning of your career. So yeah, he's a phenomenal player. Everybody knows how good he is. And I'm just glad that he's managed to get that person out of the way. And hopefully the floodgates open now for him.

And a word on Joffre Archer as well. It was interesting to note, you were bowling him. Seven over spell. Really wanted to get him that, that Pfeiffer. But he's really performed for you throughout this series, even in the game that didn't go well for you. Yeah, and everybody knows how good he is. He's world-classes ball in high 80s, 92 mile an hour, nearly every ball and swinging it. So it's very tough to face from a high release point with extra bounce. Yeah, he's a very good bowler and he's awesome to having this side. Just on reflection, how much do you wish you basically had maybe another couple of days before this series started after the end of the 100?

Yeah, in hindsight, obviously, but hindsight's a beautiful thing, isn't it? We've, it'd have been nice to have a little bit of a break and a little bit of a get together before that first game. And it's just not, not meant to be. Unfortunately, whoever's done the schedule, has chosen that and we can't do anything about it. Congratulations on today's win. On to the T20s and your hopes for that? Yeah, we've got a very good side and we can take a lot of confidence from this game today. Having got a lot of players in this side going into the T20s as well.

Yeah, we're going to play a very similar way. Obviously, a little bit more aggressive at time. but yeah we're really looking forward to that and we've got the T20 World Cup at the start of next year so it's yeah it's a big series for us and hopefully we can take a lot of confidence from this series going forward thanks Harry we'll see you next week for the T20s thank you Harry Brooke with Dan Norcross Victor just on that point that Alistair made about that difference with Jacob Beth a white ball and red ball definite for white ball not to be decided in red ball how do you see it well I agree we're short of

evidence and technically from what I've seen I really admire the way he played in his first couple test matches in New Zealand when the ball was jagging around. In fact, in one of the innings he batted a long time for hardly any runs, but in quite an impressive defensive way. So I think the technique is there. What you just want to happen to get more confidence in him is to actually witness him batting for four or five hours, which at test level is you've got to do that to have a really big impact. on the game and we've never seen him do that we sort of assume he can but it would be reassuring for him to have the opportunity to bat for a you know back for a day or back for two sessions yeah like

it's it's there just like a couple of those innings you know that last test match we watched against india you know it just looked like he didn't quite know how to build in innings and the fact he's only played a handful of red ball games it's it's understandable when the pressure gets really on against elite bowling but what we've seen today you see as someone who's got all the attributes to be able to do it it's just whether he can somehow find

the way of playing more red ball cricket but whether that's the only way he's going to learn is at test cricket because he will be in such demand in other franchises around the world the other thing in his favour just hold on a second Victor let's go back to Dan yep I've got Joffro Archer with me star of today

well one of many stars for England today but four for 19 with the ball it's coming out really well. Yeah, you know, as I said, like, some days they're going to bore well and you're not going to get any. Some days we're going to bore badly and you're going to get a lot. But I'm glad I bought well and I go for you. I mean, you're looking at a really good shape.

You've played all three of these one day internationals now and you've come off the back of what's been quite a rigorous summer for you. How is the body holding up? Now, the body's fine. I was a bit shocked, actually. That was going to play this one. Obviously, no one didn't tell me I was going to miss out. I thought I was going to get the car.

I thought I was going to be told like at some point this morning as well and there's a breakfast and no one said anything but I've totally forgot that we posted team as well but you know in the past more than lately I would have missed this one due to work load management and the whole fact that that hasn't happened means that indefinitely back now so does that bode well for the T-20s as well might we see maybe in all three of those yeah I hope so you know it's it's 12 overs you know I've almost bought 12 over was here today so I can't see why not well I definitely will be fit enough to do it if they choose to let me do it and that's another story I know we're not quite at

the end of the season we're nearly there though but can you just give us a little reflection on what this summer has meant to you I feel like last summer was a big summer well I guess it was my first full summer yes I was managed and stuff but I played from like the start of the year till the end of the to the end of the year you know so I feel like this year as well playing everything, all three formats, you know. It just means that the body's going in the right direction. And for that, I'm happy.

Joffa, congratulations. You're all superbly today. It was scintillating and good luck for what is left in the season. Cheers. Thank you very much. Joffre Archer, well, excellent today with more wickets for England. And importantly, you're getting on the park, putting back-to-back games together. I mean, England did name the side yesterday, so he knew he was in it.

But, I mean, it's that feeling, isn't it all actually even on the more? in the game they might just say to him Joffra actually on reflection we might just rest you but you know he's keen to play well I've listened to pros over the years saying I never read the newspapers I don't bother with that sort of rubbish but clearly Joffra never does read the newspapers or indeed tune into BBC's a website because everyone knew he was playing this morning a part possibly for himself but anyway he bowed brilliantly and he looks he sounds confident about his body which is Fantastic. Yeah, you probably get bored now talking about it because actually over the last 18 months, he's played pretty much continuously and he just made a really good point. He's been continuously and now he's played all three formats. So he's kind of every box his ticks. You'll probably get injured again, unfortunately, at some stage because that is the fast bowlers lot. But you just hope it's not going to be as as a big of a career one, as that elbow one was a couple of years ago.

He might just hope he's gone past that stage and just the odd niggle here and there. But when it when, yes, the conditions were absolutely in his favour. It got dark, the lights came on, you got 400 of the board. But you've still got to go and deliver. And when you're witnessing that spell from here, when you're at the ground watching someone bowl with that hostility, that control, that awkwardness, we said at lunch we talked about the South African middle order

of, you know, of Bretzky, Stubbs, Brevis, you know, they're the future of South Africa and Crick here. You know, they were made to look very average today and a certain weakness around the short ball. Just on, Archer's speeds today. He averaged 88.9 miles an hour across the nine overs that he bowled. And in his ODI career,

when he's bowled more than four overs in an innings, that's his quickest average speed over the course of an innings, a seven-over first spell and then two more overs. At the end, finished the series with eight wickets for 88 from 24 overs, and Adirashid 8 for 72 from 17.4.

It stats like that that stopped Durham golf balling is slow a ball, wouldn't it? All things being equal, I know it's difficult to ponder head a little bit, but all things being equal, how many test matches is it realistic to expect Joffre Archer to play in the ashes, do you think? Because of the way that the test matches are like late, there's a first one, then a break, second one, then a bit of a break, isn't that? And then there's a back-to-back at the end. There's two back-to-back at the end. Fourth and fifth are quick, and then the third one's tucked in.

So you're thinking first, second, third and fifth? Is that what you think? Something like that? Possibly. You would say if everything goes really well, yes, that's how I would see using him here. Yeah, that makes sense. So we are, can I just say that when that's quoted out?

We are sat in Southampton three months away from the game. the other external stuff which we know something's going to happen leading into the Ashes series but you'd say that could be realistically done yeah and that was sort of part of the problem with the India series they was almost all more or less back to back I mean years ago there were about two or three weeks between every test match so if you were the frontline fast bowler you had probably 10 days two weeks break so you could play all five tests without blinking really but now especially you know it's very very difficult to do that and how do they use them in the build-up England got that series in New Zealand or double series in New Zealand

which is kind of an ashes preparation it's strange we can have a whiteball series that becomes an ashes preparation but it's I think that's a little bit how they're going to use it or perhaps they have to use it like that the series in New Zealand starts about the 16th of October the the white ball series they're three and three there how do you see that Alistair the one thing I do like about that the fact they are playing getting matched hardened so you know because there's that so little cricket in Australia at least in that New Zealand series and it's controlled that will be controlled you know but you can only bowl 10 overs in that

obviously in a one day game and only four and a T20 so you better manage that perfectly but you get the the feel of the match intensity and the match situation and the nerve so I haven't really thought about it but that's a good way of looking about it my impression is that it's it's Horses for course, they're different for different parts. So we've established that Mark Wood, amazingly, can get himself right for a test match with playing barely any cricket beforehand. By contrast, I'm not sure he's going to be there, but Chris Wokes is a bowler that needs

lots and lots of bowling. And Joff is somewhere in the middle. Yeah. So it depends who you are, how you manage him. Some of the other positives today, Fringer, we saw some... Well, that route can play, you know. We've almost overlooked him, well, we have overlooked it. we've not mentioned him but um and actually i think jacob mentioned it in his

interview actually just having joe root there just remind probably just reminding him about what an opportunity this was for him to go and get a hundred you know you don't often get opportunity in international greet where got a really good wicket slightly weaker south african bowling tank in a dead-ish rubber nothing's dead in international cricket before everyone moans about it but because you're playing for your country but that was all in line and he was you'd just be saying make the most of it. Right, Timber, Bovuma is now with Dan.

Thank you, Simon. Yes, I do have Timber. First of all, I see your hobbling. Painful injury? Yeah, yeah, it is a bit sore. I'm tender at this point in time. Far from my deal, but, yeah, another case that I have to deal with. I'll know exactly what's happening when we get back home. But yeah, this is what it is.

Strange day for you, because you've won the Series 2-1 and deservedly so, but today, bad day at the office. Yeah, a big downer. I think we were just poor, to be honest, in all departments. I think fielding, we really let us down. So, you know, fielding is always about attitude, I guess, and was our attitude at the right place. Looking at the fielding display, we put on the types of catches we put down.

You know, you could question where our attitude was. And then, yeah, I think with the ball, at some point, things just went horribly wrong. I think James Smith, after the drop chance or momentum that he kind of got for his team and the guys just kept going with it. So then obviously the extras as well with the ball, again, far from ideal. Then the thing with the bat, you know, is always going to be tough, you know, trying to come up with any type of approach when you're chasing 400 plus. Their bowlers really put us under pressure.

Chopraisha, cast with the ball. really didn't have much of a chance. So, yeah, I think to sum it off, poor game of cricket from us. I mean, you've had to give a similar interview after winning in Australia, 2-1. And is it just the treadmill of international cricket? I mean, you guys have done the job,

you've won the first two games, and then you've got to play this third fixture. Is it just hard to get your team up for it? You've travelled miles around the world to be here and play this game. I mean, those are challenges. Yeah, but I think, you know, is an international sportsman,

using that as an excuse. Every opportunity, every game, you get to play for your country, you know, there's expectation that you must put your best foot forward, you know. So, you know, what's been different from us, I guess there have been changes within our team. Premier border like Lungingiri was rested today. Kakiso, he hasn't been available. So, you know, depth has been tested. Younger guys, we had a debiter on coming in. And I guess, you know, for those guys or guys of that likes I guess it shows them how much of a step up it is to

international cricket so you know I think part of our conversations that we have as a team is in terms of our depth what happens when you know the premier dudes are not, the premier bowlers premier players are not there because obviously you know it takes a squad to be able to go

and win World Cups or trophies or anything of that kind lastly these are games in preparation for a home world cup in a couple of years So where do you assess where your team is moving forward within that kind of arc? Yeah, look, I definitely think we are moving forward. I think we are taking positive strides forward. I think the team is starting to shape up quite nicely.

Again, I commend a guy like Matthew Breska, the way he's been going about his business in the middle order. Aiden, at the top of the innings, really, really I'm setting the tone for us. I think even from the bowling, you know, in spurts, a guy like Nandre Berger, you know, has shown that he can be one of the leaders with the ball. Lungingidi as well, you know, he's getting back to where we know him. I mean, you still have guys like Marco Janssen, still have guys that Gahisor Rabada, you know, who come in to bolster that bowling unit. So, you know, I think looking at where we were against Australia, I think we're starting to answer a little bit of those question marks within our team. nations on today, but congratulations on the series win.

Thank you, sir. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge. Perfect for the ultimate defender. The high-performance defender, Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension. Learn more at landrover.ca. Well, South Africa had already won the series with a dominant victory at Headingley and successfully defending 330 at Lords on Thursdays.

It's their first series victory in England since 1998 and they celebrated their maiden World Test Championship win at Lords this summer too. So where has this re-emergence come from? How have the proteas gone from pretenders to contenders and also winners really when you think about that world test championship victory? I'm alongside Sir Alistair Cook and broadcaster ESPN Crick Info, South Africa Cricket Correspondent and TMS regular Fidoz Munda. Hello Fidoz. Where are you today? Hi, Simon. It's really nice to chat to you again. I'm at home in Cape Town and the seasons are turning.

So it's a beautiful spring day. We are going to talk about the resurgence of South African cricket. I mean, they are very competitive. There was a time a while back when you actually feared for them. You thought, where are they going in international cricket? They seem to be losing a lot of players. How have they, what are the basics here? How have they managed to turn things around? What are some of the key factors in their ability to turn things around and really be contenders?

Now, we're not just contenders, but winners. I mean, they've won the World Test Championship final for starters. Yeah, exactly. And I just wanted to add to that list. You mentioned reaching the T20 World Cup final, but it's not just the men's team that have done well. The women have reached the last two T20 World Cup finals. The under 19 teams have also been in semifinals and finals. So across the ecosystem, South African cricket is in a really healthy space.

I think a couple of factors speak to the resurgence. The one is administrative change. So 2019, 2020, South African cricket went through an absolutely terrible time. The administration was malfunctioning. They were facing bankruptcy. The CEO was then fired for misconduct. And they got in a new CEO and an independent board. And that was really important to bringing stability back to the game.

What happened after that was they also had a huge reckoning with past injustices. We had the social justice and nation-building hearings, which were traumatic for everyone involved. In a lot of ways, things didn't go very well with them because we had testimony from those who were convicted of match-fixing, some of subsequently also been criminally convicted. But it really laid bare the issues, and there were many. And I think after that then came the rebuild where you saw the coaching structure change. They got a new director of cricket in Enoch and Queer, who I don't think we talk about him a lot, but it's really under his tenure that South Africa have achieved everything that we just mentioned, including all the age group sides and the women's sides and the men's sides getting to finals. And I think he streamlined the process quite nicely.

And probably the biggest thing was getting in a coaching system of people who really understand how South African cricket works. So you mentioned the 2019 World Cup, probably one of South Africa's darkest moments there. They were under the management of Otis Gibson at the time. And I don't really think a foreign coach does well in South African conditions. So now you've got Shukri Conrad, the all-format head coach, who has been in the system for decades. And I don't think there is a person in South African cricket that Shukry Conrad doesn't know. And he understands how the system works so well. And he's just got everyone to buy into it.

You spoke about players leaving. The SA 20 has meant that a lot of local players are getting big paydays, someone like a Tristan stuff. doesn't want to look anywhere else. He plays the SA20 and the IPL. He's not interested in other leagues because that gives him the money that he needs. And so I think it's really a sense of everything working together, a good franchise competition, a good structure from the top. And South Africa's always had talent. Our schooling system produces players across all sporting codes and so many that, you know, we can field teams in places like Scotland and Ireland and New Zealand as well. And I think that that's what you're seeing now. And it actually feels like, you know,

and many things that don't work in this country. It's one of the things that really is working and working so well. And what about the public? How much have they responded to this South African resurgence? I mean, was there a feeling of, you know, we are a great sporting nation. We've seen that over the years in various sports. Was there a sort of loss of faith in their team? And is that faith being rekindled?

Absolutely, definitely. And you can see that across sporting codes in some. South Africa. I love every opportunity to talk about the four-time World Cup winning Springboks because I think it was through them that people started to believe what was possible. What I've really seen happen with cricket is it's changed from being a game enjoyed by only a few elite kind of sections of society to really becoming the people's game. It now feels as though when you go to stadiums in South Africa now, the crowds are diverse, not just from an age or a gender perspective, from a racial perspective.

and you're really starting to see a great love of the game. The SA20 sells out pretty much every single game, which is unbelievable. I've never seen that in domestic cricket. You know, back in the days of the B&H night series and things like that, we were selling out domestic cricket. I was too young. And also, I mean, there were a lot of political implications of going to games as a person of color then. So really to see that happening now, I mean, we had a couple of T20s against India last year,

also sold out. Test matches are relatively well attended in the best. big centres. There are a couple of venues which are challenging, but people are loving it, and I think there's huge expectation. You mentioned 2027. I think in some ways, if South Africa don't win 2027, we're going to end up with like, you know, a complete meltdown because they're putting so much into it and they're building so much up to say this is our World Cup, this is our tournament to win. There's also a sense, you know, cricket's changing. I don't know, obviously there is a 2031 World Cup on the calendar, but I'm not sure if 50 over cricket will be as

important in a decade or so. So I think that that is really a tournament. South Africa are investing everything into to see if they can win. Where does Timber Bovuma fit into that? He's 35 now. He's actually gone off today with another injury. He'd be 37 and a half by the time the 2027 ODI World Cup comes around, the men's version. Where do you think he fits?

And what's been his role in this resurgence of South African cricket? Yeah, two very good questions. Look, I know Timber Bovuma wants to get to the 2027 World Cup. And I think the only thing that might stop him is the fitness concerns. You know, the hamstring you mentioned in the WTC final. It's not the first time he's had a hamstring injury. That's something that he carried at the 2023 World Cup as well, the ODI World Cup. Now it's a calf injury.

And then he's got the problems with these elbows. You know, they're so heavily strapped up. So Timber Bovuma, I think, may struggle to get to the 27 World Cup, But on form, of course, you know, you look at the way that he's scoring runs in the white ball formats now, along with his reliability and test cricket. You know, if he's fit, he'll get there, he'll play, he'll captain. I think that is quite doubtful. And I think we may end up, maybe he'll take us through next year's test summer, which is eight home test matches, three against England, three against Australia, two against Bangladesh. And I think that might be the last we see of him, but I'm almost happy to be wrong.

And in terms of his role in the resurgence, you know, it's been crucial. No sportsperson on the planet has had to put up with what Temba Bovumas had to because he's a black African batter. And whereas Kachisor Abada had a Makai Antini before him, Timba Bovumas had absolutely nobody. And every time he gets anything wrong, it's because he's a quota player. Everybody wants to see him perform all the time and to a level that is completely, you know, nobody's going to achieve that kind of thing.

So the pressure he's had to carry has been enormous. and he's led in such a quiet, dignified way. I think what's hampered him a little bit maybe is that he's come up at the same time as Sierra Colisi, who's gregarious, who's front-facing, you know, who says Jalo and the country loses their mind because he's really such a charismatic individual. Timba's much more private, much more softly spoken,

but he's won over the country, I think, in action and certainly batting with that injured hamstring was one reason for people to just fall in love with him. Timba's a role model to so many people. You know, he grew up in the township of Lunga, which is outside of Cape Town, where people really have very little. And you see his foundation, the work that he does across some various avenues. He's now also doing some work for stem cell donation and talking about something like leukemia, which is quite a taboo subject in certain communities.

And, you know, donating, especially donating blood is also taboo in this country. So, you know, he's really doing a lot of incredible work. I think he will definitely go down as one of the greats, maybe not statistically. But for the kind of leader and the character that he brings to this role, he's been immense for South African cricket. Alice, just looking in from the outside, I mean, this country, this English cricket, has taken a lot from South Africa, hasn't taken a lot of players from South Africa.

Do you sense that the fact that they're beginning to go back now and play for South Africa and be available for South Africa has had an influence as well? Well, I didn't see this resurgent coming. I remember playing that 2012 game where South Africa became the world test champion number one side. They won the Mace off us, I suppose, and winning that series against England.

And you looked at that side there, and they've got some of the greats of South African cricket, Smith, Aby DeViliers, Callis, Amler, just to name a few. And then, you know, during that period, from that and recently I suppose as you said like the coal pack player has mainly come from

South Africa to come to County Cricket a lot of political stuff behind the scenes of South Africa decreased a fair few of those players who you thought would be the next players the opportunities for them to play would have then pushed South African cricket through Simon Harmer's a great example someone I know really well

from from English you know from Essex and I suppose Carl Abbott as well Carl Abbott maybe probably the biggest profile in terms of he was leading that the next generation of South African boulders through and actually playing really well for South Africa and decided that at international cricket he decided that the the lure of a guaranteed opportunity at Hampshire for four or five years I think he signed quite a long-term contract to start for all about money you mean yeah and also the fact that he think he thought he's going to play yeah so both like the opportunity to guarantee play and there's talk about you know he would only he he wasn't in South Africa's number one side once you put all the college in place so he left he left and quite a few of those players did and you're thinking Jesus they're losing that kind of quality it's very hard to to to replace

just like that and and then you look till now and Frodo is right temper Bovuma has done such an amazing job now whether that's just him or people behind the scenes but to lead he like the way he leads and the way he's got this side playing over the last three or four years it's been as extraordinary and the fact he has had to deal with a lot. And maybe that's what makes him such a strong personality. And one of the great quotes from their coach was when they asked Bavouma to be captain,

and he said, well, you're just the leader and you're our best player. And he's just taken that on. And there's been no, none of that from my side, looking from here, I'm looking at a very slightly, you know, a different view from, first I'm not on the ground at South African cricket. I'm just, I'm watching a fire.

And there's been none of that like, well, he's only captain because he's a quoted player. He's only captain with that, because he's the best player and he's just driven these young players through and that that choker that choker kind of a tag they have had They've got rid of it now, haven't they? You have to say they've got rid of. If they win one of those the next couple of, you know, a tournament, the ICC, one of those one-day tournaments, then you can't ever say that this generation of, that's that last generation, it's this generation of players. So they had an opportunity to win the World Test Championship.

They found a way to the final and they produced a brilliant game of cricket. So I'm incredibly impressed and now suddenly you've got this interest in the side and you've got lots of young players coming through. And you think, God, actually, they're a dangerous, dangerous side. I have to admit, I was slightly concerned that fact there was no test cricket this year at home for them, especially after when you become the best test time side in the world or you win that, you win that tournament. You want to promote it. You want to push that advantage home to the home players. But if that's if you take a bit of a loss on the short term, because you decided that that T20 tournament is so important financially,

that we can miss one summer, as long as there's not every other. summer they don't have test cricket here. It's been incredibly impressive. And the fact they've come here, they've beat in Australia, they've come here and they beat in England, it's full credit to them. How important, you touched on it, Fidos, but how important has Shukri Conrad been? He took over the test team in 2023. He's now been given full rain, hasn't he? He took over all the white ball teams earlier this year. You touched on his role that he knows South African cricket inside out. What does that mean in it's, you know, can you give us some examples of what that means in practice?

Yeah, he's been incredibly important because Shukri Conrad is a man that just keeps it real. I remember interviewing him just on New Year's Day this year after they'd qualified for the final already. And one of the things he said to me is we live in a country where some people walk for leisure and the majority of people walk to get to work. And we need to just think about that. When we're putting sport into that context, this is fun. This is about enjoying yourself. This is an immense privilege.

Everyone else is struggling out there. But this is a group of guys and women who are just able to do something that they love, money off it and make other people happy. And it doesn't get much deeper. You know, that's as deeper as it gets. So he keeps it on that level. And I think what he's done in terms of freeing up mindsets, you know, we used to see South African cricketers really struggle with, should I play this kind of expansive shot? Should I bowl this delivery now? Can I try this in the field? Because they were quite conditioned into doing what they thought was right. And there was a lot of schoolboy mentality in terms of how they wanted to play. Shukry Conrad's thrown all of that

out the window. He said, go there and you do you. Do what you think's right. Vian Milder with a broken finger, wanted to bat at number three in the Boxing Day test. He said, okay, go do it. Now he's South Africa's test number three, you know. So you see those kinds of things happening. And I think he's taken some of the idea that if you get it wrong, you're going to be dropped or you're going to be punished or you're the biggest disappointment ever

out of the picture. And he said, we're just going to try things and have fun, and the rest will come from that. And you're seeing a very happy change room. What I'm hearing from a lot of the players, Kachisarabada said, I'm just playing cricket with my friends. It's just my mates out there. And that kind of hierarchy system that existed in South African cricket before

where there was maybe a little bit of a bullying culture, none of that's there anymore. It's guys who are really happy to play with each other, who play for each other, who are friends off the field as well. And I think we're really seeing the fruits of that. So, yeah, it'll be interesting. You know, he hasn't, Shikri hasn't really had a slip up yet. And I think, you know, they've got a very challenging World Test Championship campaign. Pakistan and India are coming up first and then England, then Australia at home.

So things will go wrong. I think it will be interesting to see how he handles it when a bit of heat is on because he's had such an easy ride for literally two years now. Is it the white ball team, though? That's going to be the real focus now. They've won the World Test Championship. I know there's another cycle starting and they're going to Pakistan. And actually the fixtures were announced today, wasn't I think one in Faisalabad

and one in Rao Pindio this weekend anyway, they've been announced. But is it the white ball team that's really going to sort of take the focus now simply because, well, A, there's a two, 20 World Cup in India, but also because of that World Cup's coming up in a couple of years' time. I think so. I think there's definitely a lot that's been invested into that 50-over World Cup. And, you know, given all the heartbreaks, 99, 2003, 2011, we don't have to name them all now. But I guess, you know, all of those, 50-over cricket is still important to South Africans. And I think this T20 World Cup might end up just sort of fading into the background a little bit.

And you've also mentioned the lack of test cricket at home this summer, which means that I suppose people won't get to see the test team. It is worth saying that the FTP was planned in 2022, so that didn't come after the SA 20. It was before the SA 20 that these fixtures were not planned the summer to relay the pitches, actually. So that's the main reason is that pitches are being relayed across the country for 2027 and there's drop-in pitches being developed and all sorts. But it is a pity that people won't see the test team. And maybe it's not because it's not as though people flock to the test grounds anywhere. You know, New Year's is well attended and the Super Sport Park test is generally well attended.

So I think the test team will come into focus next summer when England tour, which is always a big tour for South Africa and then when Australia come back because it'll be their first time back since Sandpaper Gate. So people want to see that there's all the niggle involved there and that kind of thing. But for now it's definitely 50 over cricket. And of course when the T20 World Cup rolls around,

people will remember that South Africa reached the final and we'll have to relive all that David Miller getting caught on the boundary and all of that stuff. But I don't think people, they've probably bought themselves a little bit of time. So if that World Cup doesn't go well, I don't think it'll be the catastrophe that it sometimes is when they don't win a major tournament. I think if 2027 doesn't go well, there's going to be a big problem. And, you know, South Africa didn't do well at the 2003 World Cup, which they hosted, all sorts of things knocked out in the first round, couldn't read the Duckworth Lewis

and all that kind of thing. This time, they can't afford any of those mistakes because that World Cup is going to be a carnival atmosphere. South Africans really host things well. And it may be, you I'll just put it out there. It could be the last World Cup that South Africa hosts in cricket terms in that, you know, it's just these things

don't come around for us very often and, you know, so many major tournaments are now hosted in India. So it really is about making that count. Have they got the team Alistair

potentially to be a serious threat in 2027? I think so. I think they will be up there. And you just actually look in, this link, I suppose, a little bit to today's game. You'd probably say

that that's their their second choice bowling attack being bowled in terms of the seamers. So, you know, you're missing Inghidi, you're missing Rabada. You know, they add experience. Obviously, Rabada's the key. But they bowed pretty well at Lords for the majority of that game. But what I think is really exciting about the South African side is the middle order of Bretzky, Stubbs, Brevis, in terms of who's going to take the side forward.

Yes, we've got Bovuma, who's at the edge of the degree, got kind of Markrums in the middle period. He played that, obviously, stunning knock in the World Test Championship final to get them close to not quite over it, but pretty much did it. But they're the three you're thinking they're exciting, that they're youngish at 24, 25. So building into probably you'd say 27 in the top by 2027, they'll be at their peakish played a bit of international cricket. And it can be on their day three devastating players. And you're going to say they're going to get anywhere near 400, you know, at least two of those three alongside

Markram will need to come off. And I think, so you've got a group of players like that, three, I think players were going to hear a lot of over the next 10 years, playing in the side, learning international cricket and doing well. I think in, you know, they're absolutely will be there or thereabouts. And you need, I think we all say in tournament cricket, you do need a little bit of luck that those guys are in form and everyone's fit and the side stays together.

But yeah, I think they, I see this South African side over the next couple years, actually constantly challenging for for tournaments and being sides where you go to say I play test cricket if they play and be called they're a good side we've got a lot of focus here for days or we've had a lot of focus on Jacob Bethel as a youngster you know talented young player finally broken through today with his first professional 100 when I say broken through I mean reached that milestone of a 100 you've got a 19 year old Luann dray Pretorius as well I mean what what's the talk about him is is that 2027 World Cup going to come a bit too soon for him because he's not he made his one day

international debut yet yeah yeah I think I think he could well end up playing there you know especially if a bovuma doesn't make it to the tournament uh Luandre Pretoria is like almost a another version of Quentin de Kock in the way that he plays you know a really big clean striker of the ball fearless in his approach super aggressive he was the leading run scorer in our most recent SA 20 which was completed earlier this year and he's learned a lot from some very interesting and important players including Joe Root so they played together for the Powell Royals, open the batting together, and both of them had so many good things to say about each other. I think Joe Root was really impressed with Luandre Pretoria's

temperament and the way he goes about things. He also keeps wicked, so there's another option there as well. And I think he, you know, he'll play for 10, 15 years to come. There was some concern that, you know, maybe the leagues would entice him away, but I know that he's very committed to playing across all formats also made his test debut for South Africa in Zimbabwe earlier this year. So he's someone to absolutely look out for. You've already mentioned Devald Brevis, who he's probably going to be the next huge, massive thing in South African cricket. He's just so talented

in the field with the bat. And what's really worked for him is that he's got a lot of confidence now. There was a stage where he had that silly baby AB nickname, which I think he embraced for a bit. But then it just became living in someone else's shadow. And he spoke recently about kind of committing to himself

and committing to authenticity and he's a man of a lot of faith. So he's a really religion is very important for him. Shukri Conrad was also, he's under 19 coach. So there's an example of where you see the two people reunited and the confidence that Shukri Konrad is given to Breivus to just play his own game and be his own person and refer to himself by his own name, I think is very helpful.

So those are two to look out for. And Quenna Mopaka is the other one to mention. You know, he's quick. He's so mature for a 19-year-old, very intelligent in the way he goes about. He's bowling, had a really good under-19 World Cup in South Africa. that was last year. And we can see, you know, when somebody like Rabada will be 32, 33 and 27, so will and Gidey.

And I think they'll both play the tournament. But you've got someone like a Quenamapaka who's coming up and ready to take over when the time comes. And I think that's what's great about looking at the South African talent pool is that the schools are producing, because these schools have such great facilities as well and such good coaching. So they're constantly producing players and they're there. It's just about what you do and kind of how you get them into the system and look after them once they're there. Well, thanks to Fidosmundas for Alistair Cutvik, Marx and Andy Zaltzman. And that's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never

miss an episode, including no balls with Alex Hartley and Kate Cross. TMS is back on Wednesday evening for the first of three T20s between England and South Africa, 615 in the evening on BBC Science, five sports extra, and the BBC Sport app and website for that. Thanks for listening. We'll speak to you next time. He scored goals, lifted trophies and broken records along the way. There it is! It's a day to remember for Wayne Rooney. And now he's got a podcast. Welcome to The Wayne Rooney Show.

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