Test Match Special - Bethell captains & Baker eyes England debut

Episode Date: August 17, 2025

Henry Moeran is alongside Ashes winning bowler Steven Finn and former England batter Michael Carberry to discuss the decision to make 22-year-old Jacob Bethell captain for England's T20 series in Ireland in September. Bethell gives his reaction to receiving the call from Brendon McCullum. Plus, Sonny Baker speaks to the BBC's Matt Henry about getting his first England T20 call-up for both series against South Africa and Ireland. Steven Finn tells Henry what it's like entering the side as a young fast bowler.

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souvenirs with pesos in Puerto Vallata or sending euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and C's and C's Apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Henry Moran. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast from behind the scenes at Edgeburston, where the TMS team have been covering

the Birmingham Phoenix fixtures against the London spirit. But there's been a lot of cricketing conversation this week away from the 100 around the England's Whiteball squad announcement with Jacob Bethel set to becoming the youngest captain as he leads England to Ireland

for three T20 matches. We'll be hearing soon from Bethel as well as Sonny Baker, the fast bowler, who's been called up for the White Ball Squad to face both South Africa and Ireland across September. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, I'm alongside Stephen Finn and Michael Carberry. Hello to you both.

I'm going to get your thoughts on Bethel being named Captain shortly. But first, let's hear from the 21-year-old, who's been speaking to Test Match specials, Nick Eshragani. Just got a call from Buzz this morning. Yeah. obviously great news to hear feelings with kind of pride at first and then yeah it's not really sunk in yet it's only been a few hours um i'm sure it was sinking more when we when we get over to ireland and start forming the team properly is that something that you've spoken to bas or any of

the senior of england hierarchy about before about leadership um not a huge amount i think that i do try and and lead by example but obviously coming into the team as a young student sometimes feel it doesn't really have much impact but it's nice to see that they believe in what i can do and hopefully i can go out and show that i can i don't know if you're aware of this i'm sure one or two people might have mentioned it but you're going to be england's youngest ever international captain how does that make you feel yeah a few people have mentioned it um yeah it's it's incredible really um i've seen how brookies kind of leading the side and and would love to just kind of take it on until he takes the reins again um in new zealand so yeah

I'm looking forward to it, and it'll be a huge honour to lead the team. I was going to ask you about role models. Obviously, Harry Brooke currently doing the job in England's whiteball teams. Is there anybody that growing up you sort of looked up to and sort of gained knowledge from their captaincy and things like that? Maybe people you played under in junior cricket or just watching on telly? Not from really a captaincy point of you. I take pieces from other guys' games with bat and ball, but it's not just a captain you learn off. it's everyone, just the way you take

can take different bits from everybody's way of thinking of the game. There's so many, there's no right or wrong way. And yeah, I'll have a think about it, but I've got a pretty good idea of how I see the game, so I'll just be looking to do that. It'll be a best ball. Is that going to be a thing? No, no. Well, congratulations again, and good luck with it. Cheers, thank you very much.

Cheers. 21 years old and breaking a record that stands 139 years in the making. Monty Bowden, Captain England in one test match, one of his two that was played in South Africa in the late 1800s at 23 years old. At 21, Jacob Bethel has been announced as England's captain for the Ireland series 3T20s in September. I think it raised a few eyebrows gents and I turn to your learned minds to get your. your thoughts on it. Michael Carberry, first of all. What was your initial reaction to the news that Jacob Bethel had been handed the captain's? That'll do nicely, I do. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Speechless. Surprised. I think Jacob Bethel is a talent, yes, and I'm sure in years to come,

he will be, you know, no doubt a firm fixture in England's team. But I think at the moment, he I think personally from where he is at the moment he should be focusing on getting runs, getting his form back, pushing his case for an England shirt. I don't think he's in the best bracket of players statistically at the moment to warrant that. But obviously, he's different times now and it's not necessarily all picked on statistics. But for me, looking at him this summer, he hasn't had the breakthrough year. I think everybody expected and older. To me, it's just a little bit of a strange decision

why you'd want to lump extra pressure on him at this stage worrying about captaincy as opposed to going out there and doing what we know he does best, which is to go out there and get runs. Stephen Finn, this is a young player's obviously highly talented. He never scored a professional 100 though. Rather, messed about by England in the summer, that might be pushing it,

but he was in the squad without playing domestic cricket really for Warwickshire, Red Bull cricket. What did you make of it all? Look, it's an interesting decision, isn't it? I think would and should he have played more cricket this summer, but domestically probably, yes, I think it's fair to say, given that you only get better and Carbs will know this is a batter. I think you only get better and learn your game as a young player by spending time in the middle, in competitive situations. So I think he'd have benefited from that. I think there has to be a degree of understanding that times have changed and it isn't necessarily banks of banks that runs that

get you selected for England at the moment. But yeah, certainly I don't think I see there being extra pressure on him this series as captain because it's a T20 series, a format of cricket that he's very comfortable playing and that he's probably played the most over the last 12 months. He's probably paid more T20 and short format cricket than he has. done anything else. And I think clearly they see something in him when you're spending time with people around a dressing room and you see how they operate and you always talk about there being leaders within the dressing room that aren't necessarily the captain. I think clearly

for him to have been given the honour of captain England in this T20 series, I think he's clearly displayed those qualities and they think he fully deserves it. Well, this is what the England Selecter Luke Wright said he said Jacob Bethel is impressed with his leadership qualities ever since he's been with the England squads and the series against Ireland will provide him with the opportunity to further develop those skills on the international stage. Do you need to have earned it as an opportunity to lead the country? Personally, I think you should. Yeah, it's a privilege to play for your country. I think you should at least be displaying your, at least one of the best in your field. but like Finney says it's times are changing and the way selections now take place it's

it sort of encompasses a few different characteristics I guess you're looking at character you're looking at skill levels you're looking at other things just other than just weight of runs but I think they has to you know what I'm confused about is what is the what is the actual marker if someone hasn't scored a professional 100 to play him at the very top top level you know if you're going to do that then for me

he's got to feature in you know pretty much all of England's cricket you can't just sort of drop him you know if he is that project you've got to let him learn on the job he should be he should have played a lot more than this summer for me it's an interesting

debate isn't it but it is indicative of how England see him as a cricketer and I mean there clearly has to be something very special for a 21 year old to have had the opportunities and faith that he's that he's been shown well the thing that I like about him when I watch him play and he attacks the game front on and I think that's the the manner in which Stokes and McCollum like their cricketers to play and harrybrook who is the full-time white ball captain who he'll be deputizing for in this series and I watch him in the field he always moves towards the ball he never

takes a backward step, he throws himself about, he puts himself 100% into everything. And I think it's those kinds of characters and those kind of people that you really want to have in your team. I love playing with characters like that. I see Ben Stokes as one of them. You never saw him take a backward step when he was performing his skills out there on the pitch. And clearly they see something, and I think I see it. When I watched him play his first few test matches. You saw someone who looked calm, batting at number three under extreme pressure. We've seen him play some ridiculous innings in T20 internationals as well, where he's taken down some outstanding bowlers. So there are those glimpses there. And like Kavs says,

there is an element of him learning on the job, and you hope that at some stage he gets a good run in the team to be able to do so. One of South Africa's all-time great captains. Graham Smith was in his early 20s when he got that shock opportunity. And how old do you need to be to know the game, to be a leadership figure? I don't think there's an age caping on I think it will vary from, I mean, the same

gentleman you're talking about, but coming in, had a, you know, a good record coming in. So, yeah, but Graham Smith, if you look at, it was a long-term project. How long was he captain for 10 years or something like that? So that's

where the confusion for me was with Jacob Bethel this summer and how things have panned out for him is that if if he is that long-term project that's fine with me but then he's got to play he should have started from the first test match this summer really you've got to keep playing him so that he

keeps in rhythm because batting is a hard enough job when you're not playing you know week to week you can't just push someone in in the lot you know what turned out to be quite a crucial test match in the summer which was the one at the Oval having had no

cricket I think that was a little bit unfair on such a young guy again who's someone who's just you know just coming the game i think we also have to put the captaincy in this series into a little bit of perspective because you've got guys who've played six hard-fought test matches it's only the multi-format players that aren't available you've still got the likes of joss butler um etc available there to play in this um in this t20 series so um yeah i i think it needs to be put within the context of the fact that they're resting those guys ahead of what will be a very big and important winter with an Ashes series and then a T20 World Cup on the back of them.

And that's the point as well. It has to be looked at in the wider context of things. And sometimes one asks the question that when you give the captaincy to someone that might have a legitimate claim for it going forward, does that muddy the waters rather if you were to hand it to somebody that you could say, Josh Butler, have the captaincy back? That makes things a little bit complicated. or somebody else who might have realistic ambitions of taking over the captaincy and want to try and create an identity as opposed to someone that just keeps it ticking over

and gets the experience in a series like that. I don't know. Carbs or Vinny? Yeah, I don't think, I think long term, Jacob Bethel could very well be a leadership captaincy prospect. But yeah, for the time being, I think it's important to remember the context within which he has been made England captain. I don't think they're saying we want him as captain in the T20 World Cup.

That's that's Harry Brooks job. It's also an opportunity to see how he operates under that little bit of added pressure of being captain. You have to do the press the day before the games. You have to tell guys that they're missing out. You have to be the person who delivers that news. And yeah, it may just be something that the England management want to see how he deals with. Again, as someone who is very talented and looks as though he's going to have a long international career. ahead of him. I will point out, Kane Williamson became New Zealand T20 captain age 21 and went on to have a

fabulous career in that leadership role. So I suppose there is precedent for it. And of all England's setups, it has to be said that one involving Brendan McCullum does tend to be one that loves approached things in a slightly avant-garde fashion. Yeah, well, the McCullum's not going to be there, is he? No. Stress Gothic is the head coach for that island tour. And, yeah, I don't begrudge the guys who are the multi-format players and the coaches who've been there the whole time. Having a few weeks off at the end of the summer,

or it's five days, isn't it? It's three games in five days, so it's not even a few weeks. And, yeah, it's a fantastic opportunity for fringe players to put their hands up to start looking at being selected in the squads for that T20 World Cup that's going to come around very quick. what are you looking for from that series? I mean, what would be a success? I mean, three England wins would be a success,

but I suppose runs for Bethel leadership, that sort of thing. Yeah, I think first and foremost, I think England would be keen for Jacob Bethel to get some runs in the series. I think, again, you know, he is that long-term project. So for me, that would be a success. And then the newcomers that are coming in,

the lights of Sonny Bakers, I think it's an opportunity to again see what he's like under international pressure. Again, someone who hasn't come in with a great deal of first class or list day experience, but obviously he brings high pace. I've seen a little bit of him down at Hampshire this season. Yeah, I mean, look, there's bits of light. There's a little bit of pace there.

I think over the next couple of years, you'll have to probably add a few things to his kit bag, but you just have to wait and see how the series pans out. The following advertisement feature is presented by GoTurkia. Ever thought about taking a detour? Turkey is known for its breathtaking beaches and mouth-watering cababs. But did you know it's also a hub of ancient histories, a verdant land for produce and wine, and home to Michelin-Star cuisine that surprises and delights.

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So Sonny, I was going to start this talking about the 100, but things have moved on since then. An England call up yesterday, where were you when you found out? How did you find out? I was actually at breakfast. Thankfully, I'd got down a bit late, so I was one of the only ones there. But I got a call from an unknown number and thinking I was going to be told that I'd won an iPad or something, and I was going to probably lose a load of money on my account. Yeah, I heard, oh, hi, mate, it's Baz. I was originally a bit confused. and then clocked like, oh, oh, the BAS, like, right, okay. And then he said, yeah, I want you to be involved in the South Africa one days

in the Island T20 series. And I said to him, oh, I promise I'm normally more talkative than this. I'm just a bit lost of words. And he was like, yeah, I've heard. So I'm not sure how to take that. But I was pretty, it was pretty surreal experience. And to be honest, I don't think it's all really sunk in yet, to be honest. It's a very, yeah, obviously a very special moment.

but called my parents straight after. There's a coach from Somerset called Baz as well. So when I told my dad, oh, I've just spoken to Baz, he was like, oh, what was he talking to you for? I was like, oh, no, Baz. So, yeah, it was very surreal experience and, yeah, very grateful. Did you tease the parents a little bit? Was that, I've just spoken to Baz dot, dot, dot,

and see whether they worked out what that meant? Absolutely no chance. I was straight in. Dad, well, I actually don't call my dad dad, dad, calling bakes but i was like bakes you won't believe this i think i've been called up for england um yeah that feels weird saying that out loud again but there we go i don't think that's going to change to be honest yeah so is it a surprise i mean you've obviously done well this summer you got that england development contract last year you must have known that england were thinking about you but is it

still a sense of surprise to for it to have come this soon uh i mean yeah i mean you never really want to presume that anything's going to happen that's the thing um and i try really hard to take stuff one step at time. I know it's a massive cliche and I always get quite a lot of chat from that from my mate. So I always say one thing, one step at a time. But I really do mean that. I don't want to start thinking of stuff ahead and, you know, as that mindset has shown, that stuff takes care of itself when you just try and think about the now and, you know, just bowling with the next game and taking it bit by bit, that really, really does work. So to answer your question, was I surprised? I was a little bit surprised. I didn't,

I didn't really think about it, to be honest, because I was so focused on what we were doing in the meantime. So, yes. Short answer, yes. So the 100 then, how have you found it? It's obviously being your, well, can we call it a breakout tournament? I don't know, I don't know what you'd call it. You're nodding, so I'll take it. Like a breakout tournament for you, you've done so well in this few weeks.

How have you found it? What's been the highlight so far? Oh, it's been amazing. Obviously, just to get playing opportunity makes a massive difference. as that's shown this year. You know, Hampshire has shown a lot of faith in me, which has been awesome. Similarly to England Lions,

getting an opportunity to play. And then again, Kat at Manchester has been just speaking to me throughout the whole of the blast, which has been amazing. Learned so much tactically through him and obviously working with Pop as well at Hampshire and now Killer at Manchester

has been awesome just to get that opportunity to play. And, I mean, that's what this competition's for, isn't it, is to give people a chance to go and tear it up, and that's what I've been trying to do. But it's been very surreal bowling it, as I say, with my notebooks and stuff, we were talking about it just before this, writing notes on Steve Smith, thinking, am I actually going to be opening the bowling at Steve Smith tomorrow? Really? Like, is this really happening right now? I've seen the bloke play on TV. I don't know how many times. But yeah, there we go. We'll come back to the notebooks. Hold on to that. You opened, and you've mentioned this as well,

opening with Jimmy Anderson you bowling from the Jimmy Anderson end how has that relationship been so far and how is that experience and how is your relationship with Jimmy a legend someone you must have grown up watching so much of how has that been? First of all, what a statement that is.

Open the bowling with Jimmy Anderson from the Jimmy Anderson end. I mean that's, yeah, that says enough doesn't it really but yeah, Jimmy's been awesome actually I've been fairly conscious, I know I ask a lot of questions so I've been trying to ease him into that and not just spray him straight away but he's been really, really good with sharing information and yeah, I think I've done well not to bombard him, to be fair.

I think I managed it pretty well. My temptation was obviously go straight in with thousands of questions, but I thought I'll be a bit more measured and take things bit by bit and more ask around specific stuff that comes up in the moment. But yeah, he's been really good to talk to. Obviously, talked about his prep and stuff and, you know, longevity things, how he's kept going. what's worked for him and he just says a lot of similar stuff that you've heard before but obviously

just exemplifies it really how did the first meeting girl the first time you met him were you nervous then yeah 100% I just to be honest it was just a load of small talk really I was really nervous I didn't want to I was expecting that he would have heard that I was going to ask him a lot of questions so I was trying to put the feelers out of like promise I'm not just going to spray you like I'm going to leave you to do your own thing as well I know you've got to got to play the game as well i'm not not here just to to spray you without the questions i'm not another another interviewer like i'm just here to to chat and and learn as we go but he's really has been fantastic and and you know good guy i've enjoyed it yeah where does this reputation come

from then this reputation that you ask a million questions as this is it a fair one do you admit that it is a fair one and have you always been like that oh absolutely i mean yeah it's a fair one that's why I was concerned about it getting round is because I do ask a lot of questions. I think earlier on in my career, I was talking to pop about this yesterday, actually, he's a bowling coach Hampshire, obviously, and

we were saying how earlier on in my career, like when I was at Brave, I think I just asked not asked questions for the sake of asking them, but I sort of didn't know what answers I was trying to get if that makes sense. I would just ask things to try and collect

all the information that I possibly could to think, oh, I might use this in the future. Whereas I think as I've learned a bit more, I've probably got more specific with my questions. So I need to know this bit of information. Can we have a conversation about this specific topic and then try and work towards what answer I'm looking to get,

if that makes sense? But yeah, the reputation of asking questions is very much fair. So I'll put my hands up and say, yeah, fair enough, I don't mind. would there be an example of when that sort of worked for you this summer a question maybe you've asked and you've got an answer that has been like that you feel like you've taken into a game and's gone well obviously there's lots of examples of tactical stuff uh i mean some of the conversations i've had with cat as well uh following games uh for example at essex obviously didn't go the way that we wanted it to uh they chased down a lot i'm not exactly sure how many it was but i think my first over went for

And actually, bold pretty well. Like, based on the plans we had, analysis-wise, like, I was hitting the green box, so to speak, like two balls, top of fourth stump, top of fifth stump. But Walt just cleared his front dog and slapped them over midwicket, which was fairly humbling. But then Kat said, well, I mean, they were chasing nearly 200, mate. Like, they were obviously going to come out of the blocks flying.

So I don't mind giving them one, having one go at, bowling the stock standard starting with the new ball swing it around to corners happy days um but if you know a guy's going to come hard you've got to have a plan in mind of what to do and i think i was probably just a couple of balls late on that where or maybe one ball late on that first ball's fine good shot second ball same area another similar shot you're like okay well now i probably need to mix my pace or go to me yorker or um do something different and getting yourself ahead of the of the rate in the over would always be a good thing. So starting with your best ball of if I want a dot

because I know they're going to come hard. I might mix my pace straight away because that's the last thing people are going to expect if you're so many of those 91 hours. Oh, why is this 72 mile an hour off cutter about? So, yeah, I think that was probably the biggest tactical learning is more what are they actually trying to look to do before you even start rather than waiting and being reactive.

So that was probably a good conversation I had with Kat specifically. But there'll be lots of different examples of that. That's just probably one I've come up off with the top of my head. Was that spell against David Warner, those first ten balls, the most fun you've had this summer? Oh, I mean, similarly, pretty surreal. And, I mean, I can't really complain. As I said, he's been one of the best batters in the world for a long time.

And, you know, to bowl like that and have the ball swing in that way, over the wicket, across him. Yeah, pretty surreal. So definitely. Was there much response, because you, I sense, for someone who likes to get in the battle with him, was he giving anything back out there? I've never been, am I giving David Warner any chat?

He would take me down. Similarly to Johnny, I just leave him alone. Like, I know he's a guy who gets real fizzed up for the competition. And similarly, has also been one of the best white ball batters in the world for a long time. I've played in the IPL. I don't know how many times, both of them. So, you know, obviously a lot of respect there from, someone who's not done a great deal yet

so yeah dishing out chat's probably not the play I don't think just leave them to it you know I don't mind having a smile on a joke like a couple down leg side at Davy going pace off and then he said something along the lines of I thought you're going to go three on the bump there

after I bowed a yorker and it was like a dot ball or one I think and then I think I said oh yeah I thought I was two you know I thought I was worried I was going to go three wires on the bump again but yeah they they're guys who get fizzed up from competition

so you know some people you're just better off leaving them alone and those two are probably in that category I'd say well that full conversation will be coming to the TMS feed soon so make sure you'll subscribe you know when it's available to listen to Stephen Finn is still alongside me and I suppose a question Stephen is what it's like for a young bowler coming into a squad that's full of big names I suppose you would have watched for years yeah I mean you're excited

you're probably a touch nervous when you get the call and you see the other names in the squad and as you say, there are people that you've been watching on TV for the last 10 years and all of a sudden you're in amongst them. It certainly can be a bit daunting but Sunny Baker doesn't strike me as someone who

is necessarily phased by those scenarios and yeah, you just see it as a fantastic opportunity. There's a T20 World Cup next early in 2026 that England will be hoping to improve on their performance performances in the last couple of World Cups, both 50 over and T20, and all he can see and all the players who've been picked in this series versus Ireland can see is a fantastic opportunity to make sure that your name is up in lights when squads in the proceeding tours to that get picked.

He's also been part of a squad that's included James Anderson during this year's 100, so he's got a good person to refer to and get advice from. But I guess when you're a young fast bowler, you've had stress fractures as he has, and 17 for his first one, and all of those difficulties you go through, those literal growing pains, you're just trying to go in there and soak up as much information as possible and try to find a way of impress. Yeah, impress whether that be in the nets or whether you get an opportunity. And also, I think with the promotion of Jacob Bethel to be the captain, I think it's also not to be underestimated how you are around the squad and around the dressing room

because I think you can show great qualities when you're not playing that will still look favourably upon you when it comes to being picked into squads and to make an impression on the people who make those decisions. So yeah, hugely exciting. I'm looking forward to watching it. Somebody that describes themselves as a fast bowling nerd and that can only be a good thing. Yeah, I think certainly when you think about fast bowling and. the art of fast bowling, especially in the shortest format, you have to be a nerd to be one step ahead of the batters. You have to do your homework in order to understand how you're going to defend scores and how you're going to get people out. And yeah, I think being able to study the

game and understand it and understand your game better at such a young age can only be a positive thing. Jimmy Anderson, Sam, he's so impressed. He's got pace skills, swings the ball both ways, got a lot going for him. And what England will be looking to see is somebody that can offer something different because we've had a lot of conversation over the last few years about just trying to find raw pace, express pace, that being the way to go. But as a fast bowler, you're looking to try and have many different elements to your armour. Yeah, I think in the shortest format, there's more nuance that's required to be successful. And it's not necessarily just pace, which is a skill in itself, but it's not just pace that I think age you in those

scenarios. It's being able to understand situations, being able to read pitches, and being able to bowl the delivery that is best at any given moment. So, yeah, someone who seems to have a lot of skills and to be able to bounce ideas off the more experienced players as well, I think can only stand them in good stead. How important is intelligence as a fast bowler and an inquisitive nature? Because the old unfair adage from some is that the batters do the thinking and the bowlers running and bowl fast. Yeah, it depends who you ask about that. Clearly all batters would say that they're the clever ones.

But, yeah, bowlers win matches. And I certainly think that it's an important element of being a good fast bowler is being able to be inquisitive and being willing to learn all the time. You look at the best players in the world. It doesn't matter who it is, whether it's Cummins, Stark, Hazelwood, Rabada. You look at the great fast bowlers,

and they're always evolving and always getting better and finding ways to survive and I think that that's a great quality to have. So somebody that is a professed fast bowling nerd targeting a place at Oxford as well to study biology by all accounts. So he's clearly somebody who does a lot of thinking

and is quite a learned individual. What would be your advice to a young fastball? Or somebody that came into the England set up very young? I would say do whatever you're going to do without inhibitions. I think it's a great opportunity as a young player to go in there wide-eyed

and see it as your first bite of the cherry to, one, impress people. And two, soak up what being in an international dressing room is about and what it's like. There is no, they are the happiest and best times of your life. I mean, barring children and stuff like that, but your cricketing life, representing England and being able to go out there on the morning of a big game

and soak up the atmosphere whilst you're out there in the middle are the best times of your professional life. So I would say make the most of it. Try and enjoy it, which is a huge part to get in the best out of yourself as well. And like I said, do it without inhibitions and you'll find the best version of yourself to do well. He certainly looks like he's done that so far. That spell against Steve Smith and Johnny Berstow from Sully Baker for the originals was utterly thrilling. You can see it on the BBC Sport website, an app, and he's got his call up.

And I really heartfully recommend having a read of Matt Henry's answer. Telling a little bit more about Sonny Baker on the BBC Sport website and app. Thank you to you, Stephen Finn. Also, Michael Carberry. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode on BBC sounds, including the latest edition of No Balls to Cricket Podcasts, where Alex Hartley and Kate Cross speak to the legendary Australia all-rounder, Elise Perry.

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