Test Match Special - Big changes for Pakistan ahead of the third Test

Episode Date: August 31, 2026

Mark Chapman is joined by Matt Prior and Mark Ramprakash. The panel reflect on a Test series win for England against Pakistan, with one match at Edgbaston still to come. There's an in-depth look at how the Lord's pitch played a part in England's win, is there legitimate concerns about the HQ surface? Also, just how good is England's bowling attack? Former Pakistan Test player Ramiz Raja joins the chat to talk about the big changes the team have made going into the third Test. Plus, more on Surrey's County Championship struggles.

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Ramiz Raj, we'll join us a little bit later on when we talk about the Pakistan side of things after another thumping win for England. And in response to that defeat, Pakistan have dropped seven players and changed their coach. So when Rameas comes on a little bit later on, we'll delve into that. So Matt and Mark will focus on Pakistan in 25 minutes a so. Do you find it difficult to judge where England are at because of Pakistan's form? Or is that slightly unfair on England, Matt? Well, I mean, firstly, evening, evening chapters.

I mean, it made me giggle just as you read that out. Seven mid-series, seven players dropped. The coach racked off. It sort of sums it up. So I think that leads into your next question. Can we take this series seriously? Probably not. You know, if you're dropping seven players, of which a couple of them are their senior players as well.

It seems that Pakistan are in absolute disarray to say the least. And of course, Rammies will talk more about that later. But look, from an England standpoint, and I think actually from a Joe Root standpoint, coming in as taking over as England captain again, you can only play the opposition. I know it's very cliche, but you can only play the opposition in front of you. and they've been ruthless. And one of the things that England teams don't do, or don't do very well, or haven't done very well in the past,

is become very ruthless. When you get a team down, you hammer them and hammer them and hammer them again. You don't let them back up. You don't let them back into the game. And when you get an opportunity to win, you take it. And I love the ruthlessness of this England cricket team, led by Joe. and I think that stands them in good stead.

Of course, the Pakistan team have been nowhere. I mean, let's be honest, but you've still got to win, and winning a test match is not easy. And I think that's the thing, isn't it, Mark? It could have drifted a bit. You know, either of the test, they could have, you know, relaxed a little bit.

But as Matt says, they have been ruthless. They have made sure they've not only beaten them, they've demolished them. Well, I've got a good evening, Chastaf's evening, Matty. Yeah, I've got a feeling that that was. word ruthless wasn't particularly welcome when Brendan McCullum and Ben Stokes took over. That wasn't necessarily a word that they wanted.

No, it wasn't, was it? To use. That's exactly right. That's right. And so, look, my overall take on the last two test matches that England have played in a more grown-up fashion, actually. They've played good, solid test cricket, and they've done the basics pretty well. I think the headingly pitch had a bit in it for the Seamas, but they played in a sense,

fashion. Obviously, the captain got runs. Harry Brooke played beautifully. But there were signs here at Lord on what was a really difficult pitch. I mean, I was present at all four days. I'm struggling to remember a game where the ball is moved as prodigiously as that off the scene. It was missing the bat by quite some distance, either way off the scene, very, very difficult conditions. But I felt like I saw really good signs with Jordan Cox applying himself, Dan Lawrence. was a little bit unlucky in the first innings to get run out, but he played beautifully in the second innings. And I think that there, to me, when I say grown up,

what I mean by that is that there was controlled aggression. They respected the good ball. They understood that there was some good bowling, and they weren't just going to, you know, sort of come out guns blazing. But there were times where when the ball was in a certain area, they absolutely went after it. And to me, that's adaptable, smart batting. And I think I saw enough of that throughout the game from the England players.

which I think is really pleasing. And then, of course, the four seamers, they're really interesting because they all present different problems. And they're a handful for any team. And there'll be a handful for any batting side, you know, a lot stronger than Pakistan. Let's just go back to the pitch, and then we'll come on back to England's bowlers.

The batting average, immense test this year at Lords, is 16.5, which is the second lowest since 1957. And look, I know Pakistan's batters were very much out of form. But that is ridiculously low, isn't it, Matt? Oh, I mean, it is, yes, without a shadow of doubt. But I think it's quite a well-known thing that the Lord's pitch has gone. Yeah. The subsurface has gone, and it needs relaying.

I'm astonished. I mean, look, Lords is my favorite Krieger ground, was my favorite cricket round. It is the best cricket ground in, you know, in world. cricket. It's astonishing that they've let it almost get to this point. And they're really now have a bit of a conundrum because I believe, and I'm no expert from a groundskeeping perspective, but I believe it's going to take three years to relay the surface.

And the problem they have is that the surface, you look at a ground like the oval, right? The wick, they've got about, what, 15. Rampson, no, they've got about 15 wickets that you could pick from the pitch. The surface is very, very, very. very big. So you can relay different surfaces at different times and keep them fresh. Lords, I think there's only three surfaces that they use for international cricket because of the alignment with the media centre and the cameras for television. And therefore, with the amount of international cricket that's being played, both men's and women, they don't actually have the

time and ability to relay a surface or even grow a drop-in surface and bring, bring that in. So I think there's a, there is a huge challenge there for the MCC for the Lord's ground stuff because this, this surface is, it's only getting worse. It's not getting better. You know the Oval obviously as well as Lords, Mark. So what would you do? Well, I think the entity have come out with a range of action points that they want to investigate. One is, as Matt said and mentioned, the drop-in pitch, which is what a lot of what they do in Australia. Again, the problem with that is that you've got to have that pitch somewhere close by, easily transportable. You've got to look after that pitch and make sure that it's in good condition so that when it's transported and laid in for an international match.

I'm not quite sure what's involved in that, but that is one of the options that MC are looking at. A relayed pitch, when I started at Middlesex in 1987, the pitches were uneven. And then around the mid-90s, they went through a relaying process. Now, normally it takes about three years for a pitch to bed in and become playable for first-class cricket. Now, they could do one pitch at a time, but that would be very expensive. It's a lot easier to bring the equipment in and do three or four strips at a time. We will have to mothball lords for two years and get this. I know we're talking might have to be three years, but

we will have to do this and it wouldn't be the first national ground stadium in sport that's had to be parked for a couple of years I think there are commercial reasons why you know

laws will not want to they will not want to turn you know sort of miss out next year on the ashes and I think already hospitality tickets and things like that have already gone on sales so the interesting thing as well is that I attended the England

the India One Day International where they were just under 800 runs scored in the day in a one day international and obviously a white ball can behave slightly differently but the pitch looked really good albeit that I was 150 yards away but it had even bounce and a lot of runs were scored and the batters

trusted the bounce so but as I say there are a number of measures that MCC are looking at they're looking at bringing outside people in to get their expertise and input and there would seem no easy answer to this situation.

Well, no, there isn't. But they just, I don't suppose, Matt, finally on this. I don't want this show every week for me to keep going, I haven't got a men's ashes test in the north. But you don't want to keep kicking this can down the road where there are going to be other grounds that will go, well, actually, we could host that test match. We could host that test match.

But we've lost Matt at the moment. Are you back? No, we've lost Matt at the moment. I'm back. I'm back. Oh, there you are. Sorry, sorry. Apologies.

I missed the, the, end of that. You don't want to just keep kicking the can. I heard a gripe about no test match in the north and it went blank. Yeah, as I say Matt, I'll keep doing that every single week. But I suppose what you don't want to, look, as great a ground as it is, and it's amazing ground, but you don't

want to keep kicking the can down the road if it's going to affect the quality of the product. You need the best surface that, as you say, the best product, right? It's particularly next summer with the hatches. You want the best cricket wicket

that is going to produce hopefully, preferably five days of outstanding cricket with a result at the end. And that's what we're looking for. We're looking for a surface that sort of has it all where, you know, when the toss you bat, you know the first hour or two on day one is going to do a little bit, you get through that,

then it sort of flattens out over the next couple of days and then dries out and takes a bit of spin at the end. And it's a really good competition between bat and ball. and ultimately best man, best team then wins. That is what you're looking for from a surface. Lords at the moment is not that. As Ram said, as a batsman you know, you watch. And when international cricketers are missing the ball by a foot,

a foot and a half, you know that there is far too much. I mean, that's just, it is, you know, ridiculous and there is too much in the favour of the bowlers. Let's talk about England's bowlers then, since being brought back into the England fold, Olly Robinson can barely put a foot wrong player of the match at Lords after taking eight wickets. Let's hear from him. I can be proud of what I've done the last few months.

Coming back into the team after a lot of hard work and obviously thought my career was sort of done with England. So to come back in and putting these match winning performances, it's really special. Yeah. I mean, do you feel you're proving some kind of point in any way? I mean, what's going on in your head is running up and taking all these wickets? I'm just trying to be ultra. consistent and just do my job I suppose I think in the past maybe got carried away with

everything else going on around me but I think at the moment I'm just trying to focus on doing my job being ultra consistent and sometimes the wickets will come to me sometimes I go to the other guys and at the moment they're coming to me so it's also a great attack to be a part of I think with the high pace that the other guys have got and skill as well it's it helps me a lot and sort of very defensive very be very patient and that's kind of what I've done my whole career so it really helps me out as well And when times do get hard, which they will, what are you going to take away from your mindset as it is set at the moment that will help you through that, do you think? I think just consistency and the skill that I know that I've got.

I've got more in my armoury than I'm showing at the moment I would say. Obviously these pitches. Really? Are you swinging it both ways? They're nipping it both ways. But I'm buying a lot of what we'll seem on these pitches. They're helping a lot. I think on flatter pitches, I would swing it more and maybe try and up and up and down the gears a little bit to play with the batters and things.

like that. So the pitches have helped a lot with sort of my how I bowl. But yeah, it's just been amazing to get a few wins and play some test cricket again. That was Ollie Robinson. Marcus Juscoffick said afterwards, Matt, we have some real skill. You look back to 2005 and the sorts of comparisons of Harmi, Fred, Simon and Hoggy and you could easily make those sorts of comparisons. But I'm just enjoying the fact we've got four who are match fit at the moment. Michael Vaughn said in the Telegraph, until they win something in that category, hang on.

So this England team win some in, it's all about winning trophies and winning bin moments. They're certainly capable of doing something special and winging back the ashes. It's an attack captains all around the world would think would be a nightmare to face. So they're on the way, but hold your horses. Yeah, I think so. I think so.

You know, if we take Holly Robinson as an example, You know, he wasn't in the frame. He was playing club cricket in Australia during the Ashes and wasn't deemed good enough for selection. He himself admits the surfaces that they've been playing on sues him in particular ideally. You know, how does he go at Adelaide? How does he go in India?

You know, there are very, very different conditions. Now, please don't think I'm looking for problems for every solution. It's very, very exciting that we have, you know, for, and as Tres says, for fit bowlers who have a high level of skill, absolutely, and in Robinson in particular, but also great pace in Joffra Archer and Tung and Atkinson as well. So I think it's really exciting. I genuinely think it's exciting, but I do also agree with Michael Vaughn that this is about setting up for your big series, right? That's what it is, big series.

And can you win with a bowling attempt when the surface is doing nothing? Can you find a way? I know Trez will mention the 2005 bowling lineup. I will always, you know, be biased towards the 2010-11 lineup of, you know, you sort of Anderson, broad, Tremlet, Bresnan, Finn, Swan. The skill of that group was being able to take 20 wickets

on very flat surfaces when the ball was doing nothing, whether it's Jimmy finding a way with wobble seam, whether it was perfecting the art of reverse swing and being able to take wickets with reverse swing or getting the ball to reverse swing. A good spinner. I mean, this is a big issue, I think, still for this seam is a quality.

You know, you look at any high class team that have won big series, become the top test team in the world. They have a quality spinner in that armory. So yes, very, very exciting. I don't want to be the problem for every solution. Very exciting. Seamus, but it's still early days.

But I suppose if I throw a problem in for every solution as well, Mark, there's an element of they're all fit and they're all firing, but they're all only having to bowl eight or ten overs in a quick couple of bursts and the opposition are out. And that is unlikely to be the case on a hot day in Johannesburg or Cape Town or whatever this winter. They could be in the dirt for the whole day. And then if you do think that there are fragile bodies or not,

then that's a different level of fitness that they'll require. Well, fragile bodies and fragile minds as well. No, I completely agree with you. I understand that Marcus is head coach and wants to give his team a lot of confidence, and that's a very flattering comparison. But for me, Geoff Ratcher is no Steve Armisen. Gus Atkinson is no Simon Jones, and Josh Tongue is no Andrew Flintoff.

However, these four bowlers, when they are fit, are a really interesting combination because I think they complement each other really, really well. And you're right. Right now, it's all looking impressive and it's all going in its way on some very bowler-friendly pitches. When we play with the Cuckabar on flat dry wickets,

can Archer bully the South African players? Can Gus Atkinson, if it's not swinging, can he still create problems in his third spell? You know, these are the sorts of questions that the England team will have to, answer if they're going to go on and win big series against Australia and India and to South Africa away, because to take 20 wickets or England in those types of conditions has always proved a problem. Yeah, I completely agree with your ramps. But what I would add to that

is, you know, winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so too is losing. And when you get in the losing habits, it's very difficult to get out of it. But when you're winning, right, breeds confidence. and it gives the individuals come, whether it's the bowling unit, that will, you know, this England, these four, we're speaking about them now. They will, that will be, that will galvanize them. That will give a belief to them,

not just as individuals, but as a group, as a partnership, as we know bowling like batting is partnership. And yes, there will be a fresh challenge in South Africa without shadow the doubt and can they do that? But at least let's get them on a plane or at least get themselves on a plane with confidence,

with belief that they can go out and bully the South African batsman. New challenge, but yeah, as I say, go there with belief, with confidence to go and do the job. The only other point I'd make is I remember when Peter Maugh's, you talk about Harmison and Hargard and that big partnership that they had, when Moore's made the decision to drop them for these young lads called Broaden Anderson, they were nowhere. And everyone was like, what is he doing? this bloke's lost his mind.

You don't know what Josh Tongue is going to do in the game. You don't know what Atkinson is going to do in the game. They need a chance to prove themselves. And yes, these conditions have been bowler-friendry, absolutely. What will they do in South Africa? But they're building confidence, and it's a good thing for English cricket. So if you both then, maybe you go first to the map, because you mentioned the spinner side of things.

Obviously you mentioned Swan and the Harmison, Freddie, Jones, Hoggard had Ashley Giles in it. as well and then Ashley Giles who could you know bolster the lower order a little bit where where are you looking at spin-wise where do you think they are looking at obviously Dan Lawrence kind of has that role at the moment whilst batting at six root could do some overs as we know if they bring Bethel back and Cox moves up to open or Bethel just replaces Cox, I mean, that's a different selection problem, maybe not for today.

Do you think they will muddle through with those kind of options? Or is there someone out there that means they don't have to muddle through and can still keep the balance? Well, I think we can go straight to that last point. If there was someone out there that meant they didn't have to muddle it, they'd be in the team now, I'd suggest. So right now, I don't see,

a front-line first-choice spin bowler. And maybe I'm just really old-fashioned, but I think it's really crucial to be able, particularly five-day... And I mean, look, again, this comes down to when did England actually last play a five-day test match? It's quite old-fashioned that. Usually tests are over in two and three plays now,

so the spinner doesn't even get a roll, doesn't even get a go. As you said, the teams are being bowled out before the shines come off the ball at the moment. but there isn't a front line spinner. So the options are a batsman that bowls a bit and then you sort of jiggle the batting order around to sort of say, okay, well, Root can do a bit

and Lawrence can do a bit and Bethel comes back, he does a bit. But that's also high risk because even on the flats of surfaces that aren't spinner-friendly, if you've got a good spinner, he does a really good job. When you're in the field for 50 overs, it's one thing.

When you're in the field for 120, 100, 30, 100, 40, 150 overs, a spinner suddenly becomes pivotal because it's not necessarily about them taking wickets, but it's about them being able to hold up an end, not get smashed left, right, sense, and going five and over, be able to go at three and over

and give your seamers a rest while they're trying to get the ball reversing or get the ball older, or get to the second or third new ball. That's, as I say, protest cricket when you're playing a real, the longer format. At the minute, these other things that aren't being challenged because the game or the innings is over so quickly because the conditions are so favourable for the seamers.

Mark? Well, I was at the test match England v. New Zealand earlier in the summer and I watched show Bashir run from fine leg to fine leg. He batted number 11 and didn't bowl. And he was on the Ashish trip. They could have selected him on one occasion at least. They chose not to. And yet they continue to include him in test match squads.

He plays Division 2. So he's not excelling. I think he's improving. And his attitude's good and he's trying hard to improve his game and become more consistent. And I think he has done that certainly over the last two, three years that he has had that England involvement. But he is learning a little bit on the job. Are there other options? I mean, of course, Dominic Best is probably a forgotten man.

Liam Patterson White is doing quite good things at Nottinghamshire. I was amazed that Ray and Ahmed actually wasn't included. in the six, however many they picked for this squad against Pakistan. Because if we had played on a relatively dry surface, I wondered whether he, because he's quite a good batsman, whether he could have batted seven and been a spin option. And I think when we go abroad, we're going to have to consider that sort of selection.

He's not necessarily a front line spinner yet. He hasn't bowled enough overs. And of course, as a leg spinner, it's not easy to do that to get that consistency in first class cricket. it. And he also would be learning a little bit on the job. However, he is talented. And I think that given how bare the cup it is, at least you know, if you pick Rayan Ahmed, he's going to contribute to the team. He can get some valuable runs, reasonable fielder, and he could. His leg spin could get wickets. And you keep the balance, don't you? You keep the balance in the main then.

Yeah, well, one of the things that I was liked about, say, Liam Dawson, is that you know he's going to contribute. He became a very cany spinner. bowled lots of overs, very well for Hampshire, had limited opportunities with England, but he would contribute a very good batsman. So, you know, those are the type of people. Graham Swan, obviously, is probably the benchmark as someone who got useful runs, caught well at slip,

and was obviously a world-class spinner. And also Liam Dawson hit a six to win the 100 final, didn't he? It was. Yeah, I'll just thought I'd throw that in. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Five live sports. So here's the first ball of this series. All the cricket you laugh.

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Settle that. It's a song right. Cricket on Five Live in every ball of this. Listen on BBC Sounds. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Joe Root, he's been out twice to LBWs in this series. His average for the summer is actually below 30 at the moment. Here is the England captain.

Well, clearly you're always looking to improve and you're always looking to evolve your game and find ways of making it difficult for bowls to bowl to you. Four of which I think have been umpires' core, three of which have been here in these conditions where it's moving significantly. I think, again, you've got to look at it from a realistic point of view. Clearly, there's a trend there,

and it's happened a couple of times, but to what extent is it something to really, really concerned about? You know, if I was getting out like that and other ways, then, you know, that's even more concerned. So, of course I'm aware of it, but, you know, I've got 14,000 runs for a reason. I can play, and I've managed to get through difficult phases throughout my whole career, and I don't see this have been any different.

I mean, I'm assuming Aggers is holding the mic and that. Otherwise, if Joe Rueh had held the mic, he should have just dropped it at the 14, thousand test runs and walked off, I think. The trend, I suppose, that there is, Matt, and they haven't just done this to Joe, New Zealand did it to, to Harry Brook as well, didn't they, I think. The wicket keepers standing up and the difference that makes.

But also, just from your perspective, of the sheer skill involved in doing that. Skill involved as a wikikeeper standing up? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. Look, I watch them, and listen to commentators or people who have never kept wicked in their life. And I giggle sometimes because it is so difficult. And I watch it with trepidation because I remember thinking,

oh, my God, really, you know, Jimmy Anderson, oh, Matt get your helmet on, come stand up to the stumps. And you're sort of thinking, are you being serious? Like, that's just not something I want to be doing right now. Because, you know, even if the pitch is slow, you know, the bowler isn't trying any less, right? the ball is still coming down at a pace. And actually, when it's decking around like it has been,

the ability to keep, okay, so when you're keeping, I don't want to bore everyone on the technique, but the big challenge as a wiki keeper, when you're standing up to seamers, is about keeping your shoulders very relaxed. You've got to stay very, very relaxed in your top half because the minute your shoulders get tight, your arms gets tight and your hands get tight,

and that's when you punch the ball ultimately. So you've got to keep your shoulders really relaxed. Your shoulders are there because your top half needs to be more relaxed. Yes. Exactly that. So you've got to keep your shoulders super relaxed, right? And as to say, that's one thing when you've got a spinner bowling at, you know, 50 miles an hour. When you've got a seamer coming down with a longer run up, your slips are stood, you know, 20 yards back.

And he's bowling at 80, 81, 82, 83 miles an hour. The ability to back your technique and to be able to stay relaxed is, you know, or the challenge of that goes through the roof. And that was something that I was watching Jamie Smith. really, really improved on. And I thought he did a phenomenal job in standing up, particularly to Olly Robinson with the ball going all over the place. So yeah, it's a high level of skill, but it's something that is working for not just England at the moment.

Australia did it to root or teams have done it to Root Pakistan, doing to Root at the moment. So it's something that's going to come into the game. You know, my son's, my 17-year-old is actually a wiki keeper. And he said, Dad, do you think in time, keepers are going to stand up to everybody. And I was thinking, hang on a minute. How is that even going to be possible?

You know, imagine being called up, stand up to Joffra Archer for instance. And I thought you're being a little bit crazy, but you have had a 17-year-old moment there. But, you know, it is, the game is shifting all the time and bowlers are having to get smarter and how to get battenmen out, put pressure on them, etc., etc. And a keeper playing a role in it like they are at the moment is very exciting. Is there any element, just quickly, and I'm sure the answer is no,

where you not guess, but sort of have to anticipate one second ahead of where you think it might end up in that situation? Oh, yeah, I mean, you're trying to guess as much you can, to be honest with you. Look, you are watching the bowlers so much that you can tell almost by how they set their wrist if they're going to lose their wrist, if it's going to fly down the leg side. I remember I used to be able to pick Stuart Broad's bouncer before he, as he got into his sort of bound, the way he held the ball in his hand was different to his normal ball.

So that's the relationship a wikikeeper has with his bowlers and the more you play with the same bowlers, you pick up different tells. Jimmy Anderson, you could pick his in-swinger by the way, in fact, I probably shouldn't tell it because Jimmy's still playing, but his run-up was different for his in-swing,

and then it was for his outswinger, and that's how you could tell behind the stumps. Now, if you can pick those little signals up, it gives you a much better chance, but still, even though you might try and guess, you get the odd one wrong as well, right? So, yeah, it's a high level of skill, for sure. Lankish's issues stretch further

than whether you release some of Jimmy Anderson's secrets at the moment. Trust me on that. Right, let's... It's the same at Sossack's. Shop is don't worry. Oh my goodness me at the moment. Crikey. Anyhow, right. Let's talk Pakistan. Delighted to say, Ramiz Rajah joins us on five live cricket. The coach has been replaced ahead of the final test as well as the assistant coach. Seven players have been dropped. Seven coming into the squad. Five of them are uncapped at test level. When you heard all of this, Ramiz, what were your initial reactions? A lot of shock

and this is not done in cricket and so why have they done it? Obviously they're feeling the heat but in any circumstances during the series this has never happened so Pakistan have actually created a world record and I'm really really not happy with the situation why do you think they have done it

have they have they pan it or are they are they trying to in some way send a message to Pakistan cricket fans that they are tough and they won't tolerate this? It's for the gallery also. But even then, you know, how many times you've seen this to happen in world cricket? Never ever. You know, this is more like football midway through the season. You fire the manager.

But this is a series that is happening. So they could have easily waited for another 10 days before 10. taking a call on some of the players. But this is culling of some magnitude that I've never, ever witnessed before. So I still have to, you know, I'm trying to convince myself that this is all okay, but it is not. It just shows that Pakistan cricket has hit a panic button, and it's not good for the game, not good for the confidence that the players who've come in, not good for the confidence that the players who are left, because it makes you a selfish team, it makes you an individualist,

the team and what is the guarantee that they will get the results also. You know, some of these guys haven't played test cricket. I mean, I've got no idea why it was done, you know, this mass culling. Rameez, hi. Good evening. It's Mark Ramprakash here. Hello, Mark. Hi.

Ramiz, look, I'm fascinating. I was at the Lords and I got talking to some Pakistan fans and, you know, they were sort of bemoaning the decline of Pakistan cricket. I was trying to think, I mean, look, I think it's incredibly unfair what's happen to these players and the ones who are sent home. I mean, the damage that that would do for their confidence. And also the ones who are playing, you know, they play poorly for one or two games and they get dropped.

It's really, really, really tough. But what about underneath, Ramiz? Can you tell us a little bit about the structure of first class cricket currently in Pakistan and whether it's developing the players or doing the job that it's meant to? It is not exactly, unfortunately, because so many changes have occurred at the the administrative level. So many ways to play first-class cricket has been exercised and executed. And, well, they've tried their hand at so many things, but it's just the talent is not there.

Maybe it's got to do with the structure, coaching, school cricket, your club cricket. What you see in these performances from Pakistan cricket team is a reflection of what is happening at the lower tier. And unfortunately, you're not seeing a lot of. talent coming through. So, I mean, that way, Pakistan cricket is handicapped. And Matt, Matt Pryor here.

Quick one for me. I think, you know, unfortunately, we've been in dressing rooms when things haven't gone well. And, you know, you look at the coach and you look at selectors and you look at everyone else. But ultimately, the men in the dressing room are the ones that have to turn it around. And more specifically, the senior players

within that dressing room, I've been watching and thinking, where are the senior players? What is happening to them? Why are they not standing up doing more to try and turn this around? Do you think you should expect more from them? Yeah, I found that quite astonishing. Yeah, it is astonishing for me as well

because I've never seen anything of this kind ever happening on the cricket field. I mean, obviously you want to win, But you see, what has happened off late is that in the last couple of years, Pakistan have lost a lot of wear and tear in the dugout. It makes you selfish also. You saw, you know,

how some of the settled players were playing with the tail. They were getting a single of the first ball and exposing the tail to Joffra Archer for the next five. Now, in a healthy environment, that should never happen. But it is happening, more and more. It happened in Bangladesh also when Nahid Rana was bowling, a really quick spell and it was Rezwan Dane

who was opting to just take a single and be at the non-strikers and see the demolition from his end. Little things. I mean, how the tale is playing fast bowling, they're scared. And that sends a very wrong signal to the opposition as well. And some of your senior players,

well, they've been asked to leave. And Barbara Asam has got to be the inspiration, but the way he was dismissed by Joffra Archer it doesn't send strong signals. So, I mean, it's just a plethora of so many things that has happened that has gone air wire. And I have no idea. You know, if you ask me, frankly, you know, how things can be fixed,

I've got no idea. I think the next year or so is going to be as turbulent as the last two. As a former chair of the PCB as well, Ramiz, then. And you talk about the environment, and this environment where a batter takes a single off the first. first ball and then exposes the tail. Is it on, where, who takes the lead in changing the environment? It's the captain. It's the team environment.

You see, and you have to work very closely with some of these experienced players because they need a lot of assurance and conflict. I think the entire DNA was sort of, the window because there were so many changes. It's just destroyed the DNA. So certainly you have Barbar Azam, captaining aside, and then he's removed, and then it's Mohammed Rezwan, who's made the captain,

and then he gives way to Salman Aliaga, and then the administration changes as well. So there's a lot of unsettling period that has happened in the last two years. And as we all know, that these are performing artists, so they want, you know, some comfort in some consistency to create that wonderful piece of art. Some of these players have played under a lot of stress

under new management, under new coaches. And so, I mean, they felt very uneasy. And once, you know, you remove a coach. In this instance, Sartraz Ahmed is gone. So is his deputy, Umar Gould. These are cricketers who have performed so well for Pakistan over the years. But they've been booted out. unceremoniously.

So I don't know what will happen to the psyche of the team and to the psyche of the ex-cricoters. Who would want another job with Pakistan cricket team if they're not going to be respected? Final one for me. We've seen the influence of whiteball cricket,

franchise cricket around the world 2020 taking over. And test cricket, let's be honest, is struggling, right? There's a lot that needs to be done. Where does test cricket still sit? Do you think within the Pakistani psyche? Do you think it is still the number one?

Do you still think it's the Holy Grail? Or are they more focused on the big money franchises, the White Bull Cricket 2020? No, it's not the Holy Grail anymore, unfortunately. You still get a lot of audience for test cricket, but it's just that if you're not winning, obviously there'll not be a lot of takers. And so the game is struggling in five-day format.

And unfortunately, I don't know. I mean, you know, I am old school, but heroes are made through T20 performances and not through test performances. But when you come over to England, for example, or to Australia, to South Africa, where you still get full houses, then you realize where you are and why it is so important to continue persisting with test format. And everybody has to buy in into this psyche that if you want to become a great cricketer, then it has to be test cricket. But unfortunately, it's not the case in Pakistan anymore. Do you think they can get back to being in a group with the Big Five,

as we've been calling them recently on five-life cricket, of England, Australia, India and South Africa and New Zealand? Do you think they can get back into that group? I think they can, provided there is stability, provided there is confidence and provided they're respected. It's not going to be a simple route. It's going to be a tough one. But as long as you think that test cricket is the way to go to win back fans and to win back respect,

then I think there is light at the end of the tunnel. Can the people that run it be patient enough? And as soon as I heard that news today, it took me back to a quote that I gave from Jason Gillespie when we talked about Pakistan last week on the show, Ramees, which was – And he said – When he arrived in charge of Pakistan, the PCB wanted something, wanted to develop fast bowlers. They wanted stuff to go in a certain direction. Then they lost a couple of test matches.

New selectors came in, new management, and then they decided that they wanted to play on news pitches and spinning tracks. And that went against that long-term plan. So can there be patience within Pakistan cricket for a long-term plan? Well, they do not have a long-term plan. That is the reason why you see these knee-jerk reactions. And for teams to prosper and become world force, you've got to have a long-term plan and you've got to have sit-in periods,

you've got to have disappointments, but you've got to stick to the players that you've chosen and picked. Right now what is happening is that you select a team for a tour of England. And then you tell yourself that, look, we made a mistake and we're going to replace, you know, half the team.

That can't be right, actually. So you are belittling your intelligence, and that just doesn't work. Look at other teams also. Teams go through some rough periods, but they then come through only by having a long-term plan, only with patience and only with people that understand the game and can have the eye for the talent. Rames, thank you very much for being with us this evening, Rames Raja, on Five Live. cricket. I mean, me and you Mark are a little bit older than Matt, so I'll address this to you. You can't, you know, you can't hark after the past all the time. And in the same way that it's so disappointed with the West Indies when you were brought on, I was brought up on Richards and Greenwich and Garner and Walsh and Ambrose and so on and so forth. This is, it is horrible watching this at the moment when brought up on Javan Miandad and Imran Khan and Wazim and Wakaa and so on and so forth. It is.

Yes, well, I was lucky enough or unlucky enough to play against those guys. And they were, they were world-class talents. And actually more recently, you know, there's still Pakistan have produced world-class talents, but it has fallen off a cliff. And that's why I asked a little bit about the first-class structure. There would seem to be, I think, some confusion around how players are brought through and developed. Clearly, the short format has superseded pretty much everything else. Why money, simple as that?

And they seem to lack, I think, a structure in and around the short format to keep developing players for the Red Ball challenges, the rigors of Red Bull cricket, which is to produce a good technique and a mindset that can cope to do skills for longer periods of time in test cricket. Yes, OK, if you're going to play out some spinning tracks, they may win some matches at home. But quite frankly, when they travel away, you know, they're all at sea. where does Mike Hesson start? He's the coach.

He's been brought in. You know, he's got to try and produce some stability, some sort of confidence as a group to try and engender some team spirit. Wow, I don't envy him. By the way, if we want to cross generations, you should suggest to your 17-year-old Matt whether standing up to Waka would be a good idea. Show back to.

I know. I'll show him back to. Yeah. Crocky. We're going to talk county championship to finish. I mean, Matt can go on about Sussex or I could go on about Lancashire. But in Division 1, they're in for a great finish to the title race. Nottinghamshire, Somerset and Warwickshire, they're the top three. Just eight points separate them.

There are four rounds of fixtures left. Surrey are in danger of being relegated. They've won just one match all season. Their third bottom, they're three points above second bottom, Leicestershire. Remember this is Surrey County who've won three of the last four titles. Mark Church covers Surrey for BBC Local Radio. What's gone wrong? Frustrating, I think, would be the word, Mark.

I think we've all got so used as I think the players have as well of dominating games of cricket. This season, they've got themselves into positions to dominate games, and I think at times they've just assumed it's going to happen. And it hasn't for them. I think the six draws sort of tell the story that they haven't been able to take 20 wickets in games. I think the three games they've lost, especially the games against Yorkshire and Glamorgan, they had opportunities to dominate that game, drop catches cost them in both games.

And the game against Nottinghamshire that they lost at home a couple of weeks ago, knock Nottinghamshire over for 1-18. 80 odd and you think yeah they've done the job there they've won the toss on on pitches at the year over this season which which were always the same really there'll be a lot there on day one and then it will get better as the game goes on winning the sauce is crucial you have a bowl they did the first part of the job right against nottingham sheer and then the vatting didn't do do the job at all so i think frustration would be the word in the fact that they haven't put the two sides of their game together in the fact that when they bowed well they have

haven't batted well, when they batted well, they haven't bowed well. And you look at the team and it's still the same team that have won those championship titles. There isn't any changes there, really. Have they had less demands on their play with England call? I mean, I know they all. Not so much. Jamie Smith, Gus Atkinson. They've had Olly Pope for most of the season, but that's part of, part of Surrey, really. You always know there's going to be players there that are going to disappear to play international cricket. You know, Dan Orange is playing test cricket again, which is terrific.

Will Jacks has been away playing one day stuff. Sam Curran has until he got his injury. So you always know that's going to happen. But when those players went away in those championship seasons, so the players came in and you didn't miss a beat. And the bowling attack was absolutely relentless, which, whichever end, they went in with four or five man pace attack. There was no let up whatsoever.

Hasn't been like that this season. Dan Warrell's obviously been injured. I think Sean Abbott would put his hands up as the overseas at the first half of the season and say he didn't really hit his straps at all. I think what we've seen in the last game is they do have a spinner now in Rahul Shahar, who picked up six wickets against Essex, the leg spinner from India. He can make a massive difference for them. But you're right, you know, you look at where Surrey are in the

table and it's sort of crept up and all of a sudden it's well been waiting for them to click it hasn't happened and all of a sudden as you say they're three points above lestershire the only thing in their favour i think is and this might sound a strange way of looking at it is their last four games are against sides above them yorkshire sussex glomorgan and somerset now that if they can put it right and and they're you know they haven't got much time now but if they could put it right, they'll go up that table because it's so tight. But they got a draw against Essex, Benfog's magnificent 100 on the last day. But again, they were behind the April.

And I think it will be frustration. I think they've already signed Henry Crocombe from Sussex. As Matt will know, this lad is a real talent. They've signed him to join Surrey. I think the other thing they have to look at is spin. And they've got Ralphie Albert, who's a very talented left arm, but still learning his game. Obviously, Dan Lawrence has done the job for them,

but he's going to be away with England for a while now. I think they've got to go looking and see who's out there. Now, getting top quality spinners these days know exactly what they're doing. It's not an easy job. But I think also for the way the pitches have gone this season, as I say, the pitches get better in South London. And there have been times where not a lot's been happening

and you sat there and you thought top quality spinner at this point would make a massive difference. So I think that's something they'll definitely be looking at for next season. Mark Rabrakash, how have you seen it with Surrey? Well, I was just going to say that,

look, I think this is quite healthy in a way. I mean, obviously I don't, I hope that Surrey don't get relegated, obviously. But at the same time, they got off to a tricky start. You know, they played on some flat wickets, couldn't sort of get any momentum. And actually, it then becomes quite hard work.

And so it should be. This is Division I County Cricket. You want the teams to be battling hard. And although they've won three championships in the last four years, the fact is it's a new season, fresh season, and then you have to do it all again, and you have to go to the well again. And I think Burns and Sibley perhaps have been a little bit quiet.

They lost been folks for quite some considerable period of time. Look, they managed to make it work in previous seasons. Of course, everyone would love a top-class spinner, but, you know, they don't grow on trees. So in a way, I'm just, I just feel that hopefully Surrey will stay up, but it's good that they're finding things quite tough because that's the strength of Division I. Yeah, it should be like that quickly, shouldn't it, Matt, really?

Definitely, definitely. I mean, it got to the point, as I say, three and three championships of four years. Garrette Batsy had done an amazing job. Obviously, Alex Stewart is a legend at the Oval, and what he's done as director of cricket, has been awesome. But it also shows you that sport is cyclical. You know, you go through these areas where you have a phenomenal patch. You find a way of playing.

You find a settled team. And one or two things just change in the dressing room. A player in here, a player out there, a change of caps. And whatever it may be, a bit of form and injury. This is the fine line, the fine margins that you're dealing with in professional sport. and that's what it looks like. Surrey are finding out now. I think they've got a couple of young players

that are coming through that are outstanding, or potentially outstanding young cricketers, but maybe a year too soon for them. I'd be refreshing if other sports followed suit, wouldn't it, Mark, like Arsenal in a relegation battle in two or three years' time. That'd be refreshing.

Yeah? Look, it's taken us a while to finally get over the line. I mean, we had three second places. Give me a break. Thank you both. See you soon. Mark Bracash with us on Five Life cricket. This is Five Live Sports. It's all right to the lights and fit and a floor.

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