Test Match Special - Brain surgeries, stress fractures and aviation: the Ricky Ellcock story

Episode Date: July 29, 2024

Simon Mann sits down with former England bowler Ricky Ellcock to take a look back at his extraordinary life.Ricky discusses the FOUR life-saving brain surgeries he went through, having to prematurely retire from cricket because of SIX stress fractures in his back, and switching is focus to aviation and becoming the first black captain of Virgin Atlantic.

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from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Simon Mann, and welcome to a bonus test match special podcast. During England's test against West Indies, I spoke to former England bowler, Ricky Elcock from the TMS Box at Esprosden. Ricky's extraordinary story includes four life-saving brain surgeries, prematurely retiring from cricket, and being the first black captain at Virgin Atlantic. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5,

Albada spawn fast bowler who played county cricket for Worcestershire and Middlesex and was seen at the time as a future star for England. I can remember you bowling it like the speed of light at Cheltenham one day, Ricky. So Ricky Elcott was called up for a tour of the West Indies in 1990 with a reputation as one of the fastest bowlers in the country. But cruelly he was injured almost before the tour had begun with a stress fracture to the back and never really recovered. He had to find a new career. He relocated to the USA. Actually, you could be telling us all this, couldn't you?

Because it's your life story. But you qualified as a commercial airline pilot, first black captain with Virgin Atlantic, a life of ups and downs, including receiving four life-saving brain operations in the space of eight weeks. It's all in his autobiography, Balls to Fly. Welcome to Test Match Special, Ricky.

Thank you very much. There's a lot to talk about it, isn't there? Well, let's go back to the start. So you grew up in Barbados. When did you know you had something special as a cricketer? Probably about 10 years old when I went into Commerer. And initially... And that's a school in Barbados?

Yes, the school in Barbados. I was a carless Bradford went to school there. Chris Jordan face. That's Rihanna. Probably where they all went to school there. But I arrived there as a 10-year-old and decided I wanted to play a cricket with the big boys. Found out that it wasn't as easy as that actually bat against them. you know, preferable to

try and bowl a cricket ball as quick as I possibly could at them. So that was my initial and I progressed fairly quickly from there as a 10 year old into playing first division cricket probably at 14 years old in Barbillus. When I was at school all I wanted to do was play sport were you interested in your studies as well?

I suppose if I was born in today I would say I had ADHD or something like that I was a kind of kid that wanted to jump as high as I could and run as fast as I could. I had two things going for me. Obviously, growing up in an incredibly poor environment, but I had two things going for me. One that I was relatively clever child,

and the second one that I was relatively athletic child. The first one got me into Common Mirror School, which is a grammar school in Barbados, and the second one got me a scholarship into Malvern College here in England. Yeah, so how did that come up? about. So you're Mulven at what age? 15 years old. So how did you get a scholarship of Mulver? How did that

sort of... Well, I played against Malvin as a 14-year-old in Barbados and scared him. You know, 14 years I could bowl fairly quickly. What do you reckon you were at 14? In terms of miles per hour? Oh, I'd have been

man speed, I tell you that, 14 years old. I mean, I was playing first division at that age in Barbados. So, you know, I was playing with the big boys. You know, Clark and Daniel and people like that. But so I scared them and I think they went away and thought, you know,

you'd much rather bring this kid to England and let him have a go at other public schools in England, you know. So you came over at 14. Was that, I mean, how many times you'd been outside of Barbados? I hadn't hardly left my village.

So I, you know, I played against them and scared them and they said, look, you'll bring you over to England. And at that stage it was quite advanced. As a matter of, if I went down to, the 1991 test in Barbados,

which is where Roland Butcher met is debut as the first black player for England. It's also where Michael Holden bowed that famous over to Jeffrey. To Jeffrey. And also where Kenny Burnton died in that particular test match. And old Alan Smith, who was the manager,

funny enough from here, Edgbiston, he invited me to bowling the neck. So at 15 years old was bowling at the England team. in the Nets in 1981. So I had a really good start and a good blessing.

So then you go to Malvern. Go to Malvern. What was that like, that transition from in Barbage? He's hardly been out of your village and then you're suddenly in Malvern College. Absolutely. Century Over loud, as you could imagine. You know, I was seeing new things. I was hearing new things, smelling new things,

tasting new things. I mean, it was the first time I had seen a color television. And not only was it a color television, but it actually changed channels by itself. I didn't know that a remote control existed. You know, a toaster. Can you imagine a toaster? I'd never seen a toaster.

I could still remember my chaperon, Gary Lee, getting up with a handful of bread and going over to this strange implement in the corner and putting it in and coming back with burnt bread. And I remember thinking, what in God's earth would make you burn good bread, you know? It's a very good question, actually, isn't it? Absolutely.

So, you know, all of these things, apart from the cold and your first time I wore a blazer, first time I wore a jumper, you know, all kinds of... I just went into, you know, a century overload, and it was fairly interesting period in my life. So what time of the year would you come over? I came over 17 for April, which I flew under 17th for air, so I arrive here.

And I think they designed it that way so that I went straight into the cricket season, whether than coming at the beginning of September and then going into the winters. My housemaster, a guy called Alan Duff, who was incredibly clever, and I think he designed it that type of way. You were the only black boy in the school?

Absolutely. So what was that like? Well, they were looking at me like I had 12 heads, and I was looking at them, like they had 12 heads. Because I'd never seen so many white people in one place, and they'd never seen a black guy, you know. So we're all looking at one other like, we were all crazy. But what I will say is they all looked after me,

as much as they could, and I've still got a lot of friends. As a matter of fact, we've got to get together 40 years at Malvin on the 12th of September, so we're still meeting out, saying hello to each other. And you play for the school, I bet there were a few schools. You're thinking, Melvin College, I've heard they've got this guy called Ricky Elkhine. I've just gone in the hamstring, sir, today. I'm not sure I can play. Was it a bit like that?

It was strained. I don't think Malvern sort of helped themselves, because they would walk around with a couple of helmets and offer them to the opposing team. And so, you know, before we got there, the box was up. I remember turning up at Harrow to play against Harrow and the old umpire saying, one short ball today would be off.

You know, I remember playing at Repton. Was that because your reputation was out there and they'd heard that Malvin had this fast bowler. Yeah. And they're actually trying to say, look, come on, just pitch it up. What did you think about that? Do you think that was right or not? I thought they were having a go.

And Moulvin thought they were. And they said, well, for years they'd had, you know, Pai got down here bowling quick at us, and here's we turned up with a young quickball, and now you're complaining, you know. So there was a little bit of tension between the teams and schools. Repton.

I hit my old school, my old colleague, John Carroll on the head, they called the match off. You know, so there was lots of tension. and a lot of times that I thought they were picking on me but I think it was just public school rivalries. So John Carr, went on to play for Middlesex? Yeah, I went on and played at Middlesets with myself, you know. So how did you then progress from, presumably Word got around, did it?

Moulon's got this young quick bowler and he's worth having a look at. Absolutely, so I came up at 15. By 16, I was playing for Worcester. So right straight into the Worcester side that same summer. So the first summer that was here playing county cricket, second 11 for Worcester. And then the next year I actually made my county debut

playing for Worcestershire as a 17-year-old. Against Middlesex, funny enough. And Mike Barely Simon Hughes was in that side. I had a few. I think I got him out as about. Well, that wouldn't be difficult. Yeah, yeah. Let's face it. Just to walk out there with his pads on.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, that's some remarkably quick transition, isn't it? Coming over at 14 in the Worcester side at 16, did you feel ready for professional cricket at that age? Yeah, I felt quite ready because I'd played First Division cricket in Barbados at that time was probably as strong as any kind of cricket anywhere in the world.

I mean, I played a First Division game in Barbados as a 14-year-old against a side by the name of BCL, and they had Franklin Stevenson, Sylvester Clark, and Ezra Mosley and their bowling attack. I mean, I was playing them again at 14 years old. So I was ready. I mean, I could play and I could bowl fast enough that it didn't matter. And how did your career progress from there?

My career started well and then went through a really bad patch because I think everybody wanted a piece of me. Here was a 16-year-old or 17-year-old that could bowl extremely quick. And everybody wanted a piece. So I was playing first-class class cricket. I was playing second class on the 25, on the 17, on the 9. and it just was too much for me at the time and eventually I ended up with a bad injury.

His bowlers weren't really looked after in the same way as they are now. Absolutely not. Nobody cared. Everybody just wanted a piece of the action and I ended up playing too much, doing too much, and just got injured. And was that accepted among the coaches

and the club that you were playing for? They just said, come on, we just need to get on the field. Yeah, absolutely. So I became a little bit of a leper at Worcester because I couldn't bowl fast as they wanted me to. And, you know, I ended up a fairly miserable time in the sort of Worcester dressing room for myself until I eventually left and moved on to Milosex.

Did you feel you were sort of being targeted a bit that, you know, you weren't sort of pulling your weight in the dressing room? Yeah, absolutely. First time I'd ever seen the word Skyver or heard the word Skyver. I remember one of the teammates saying, you're Skyver. And I'd never heard that word. I remember walking up to the library in Worcester

to go and look it up to make sure to see what it meant. I thought this guy was having a severe word at me to tell the truth. And, you know, so that was the period that was really sort of desolate and desperate, you know, depressing for myself until I could leave.

And what about, you know, you were here, what about your family back in Barbados? How often did you see them? The first time I saw that, them after coming to Malvern was at the Christmas. So they said I would go home, usually during the summer on Christmas. But, of course, I was playing for Worcester during the summer. So I never...

So the first year I just spent in England, I went back at Christmas time. And what was that like? It was nice to start with. I had a... Everybody wanted to see me, or my whole village, obviously I'd come back. I'd gone a little tall, and my mum was desperate to look after me and see me. and then it turned for the worst because my dad actually died

that same Christmas and so here I was first time back in Barbados and within a couple of weeks arriving back in Barbados my dad had died must have been so difficult then to go back to England oh desperate I mean it's desperate

my mum you know God rest herself she just wanted me back I think because she had now had three children that she was going to have to look after financially but all also because she recognised that I needed to be educated properly to be eventually, hopefully trying to look after the family.

Very brave woman, I will say that. Did she want you to go initially to Melbourne? Did she saw the opportunity there for you? Yeah, she saw the opportunity, but she found it incredibly difficult. And, you know, she said to me a later year, she said, basically, I cried every night. I dreamt that you had pneumonia and died fairly much every night. And, you know, and I looked back and I think, at the time, I never saw that.

I just was interested in going to England, something that I'd listened to cricket all my life. And, but, you know, she worried about it all. Did he want to go? I mean, you say, oh, it's all right with it, oh, it seems like a good opportunity to go. Did you actually want to go? Absolutely. I mean, I grew up in a little wooden house in Barbados with no running water or, you know, a toilet facility. even. But we would

listen to cricket. My dad would listen to cricket from all over the world. So I was listening to Test Match, you know, from England and John Arlett and people like that. And I just wanted to see what it was like. You know, just the same as I wanted to see India or Delhi or any of these places

where my dad a little transition radio that he had we would all listen to crowd around it and change the batteries every two minutes and listen to cricket. So let's just fast forward a little bit then because we've just gone back to how your mum dealt with you going away and how difficult it must have been actually after your father died.

So you were playing for Worcester, you had the injury. So kind of what happened there? Because there were more successes, but injuries along the way as well. Yeah, I had my, you know, a little bits of successes in between the injuries. And until eventually I was putting plaster cars for six months. So they plastered me basically from, you know, my neck down to my private parts. So you had to walk around with the plaster cast on for six months or just rest? Yeah, for six months I had this plaster cast on

and couldn't wait to get out of it. Eventually I got out of it and train myself back up, assumed that I was going to be in the Worcester side. I had Duncan Farley at the time saying, no, you're going off to play for Farsley in the Yorkshire League and keep you as far away from Worcester as possible. Mind you, Green Hick, at the time, was the overseas player and making lots and lots of runs

so that's what I did but I just that particular position wasn't tenable for very long So what happened then? You ended up to Middlesex? Yeah I asked to leave which they denied me one year and then the next year they said right you can go

and I went off to Middlesex. Happily or with a sort of resentment at how Worcester treated you? Happily. It was a decision that I should have made in 1982 I haven't played my first county game against Middlesex I think someone had said, look, why don't you come to Middlesex?

And I felt that I owed Worcester the opportunity to play for them because they'd given me first chance. But eventually I should have gone really at that time. Did you feel was Middlesex a better environment for you? For a fastballer, absolutely. Gat was a fast bowling captain. I think he played spin so well that he never really. you know, didn't like spinner.

So he had, suddenly he had this guy that could bowl a ball, you know, over 90 miles an hour. He could call his big fast bowler back and blow away the tail and stuff like that. So he, that was the environment for me. And he was very clear, which was something that was lacking at Worcester. You know, at Worcester, I didn't know whether I was going to buy five overs or 15 overs. But Gat would say, you know, five overs, and then you can go off and have a shower. So it was very clear that I could run in for five overs and.

bowl as quickly as I could. And it went so well for you at Middlesex that you did get selected. Selected for England. That first year, straight into the England side and off to the Caribbean. Because I remember it pretty well, because I remember there's a lot of excitement.

Because, of course, West Indies had lots of fast bowlers. And England, they needed something to sort of go back at West Indies with. So there was this young fast bowler. And, well, but it didn't quite work out. No, we turned up in the Caribbean instantly, I had. sort of back pain

and as you said there was myself Devin Malcolm at the time Duffy De Freitas you know we're all in our side I turned up in the Caribbean suddenly started to have back pain and I tried everything

I I had archipanching in St. Lucia from some back street place I remember Mickey Stewart going absolutely crazy and said Ray you know this is the age of AIDS and why you let people stick you

stick needles in your back. You know, a guy in the hotel. I remember a guy phoned him up and saying you want to go and buy a bottle of WD-40 and spray it on your back. That would get rid of your back pain. And I walked down the road and bought a bottle of the... I was just desperate, clutching out straws.

So the back injury, was that the injury that kind of finished your career? Absolutely. And that, I turned back, eventually they sent me back to England to have it looked at and they did the scans and stuff. found out I had six stress fractures.

So no end of archipotry was ever going to fix that. And they were quite high in my back as well. So they couldn't actually fuse them like most fastballers of the time. So mine was L3, 4 and 5. And so they decided to take bone off my hip and graft onto the actual individual crafts and then screw them together. And that was quite new sort of surgery at the time. And of course it didn't work within a.

a year or so, I'd sort of broken down again. And was that the end then? No, they had a second operation. They said they would do an exploratory operation because I was bowling fast, but I was in pain. And eventually I said, look, the pain, you know, I'm eating too many pain killers and anti-inflammatories.

I need some help now. So they decided to do an exploratory operation, see what they could find. And I went into operated at 9 o'clock in the morning and then woke up at 10 o'clock at night. And I thought, well, it couldn't be that exploratory. And eventually what they found was that had broken a lot of the pins. And so they had to drill them out and refuse them.

And so that was that then. Well, I came back again. I started playing again, and then it started again. And the final straw was pre-season in 1992, and I started projecting vomiting and stuff like that. Because of the pain. Because of the pain, yeah. And so they eventually said, look, you need to stop now.

Do you think you would have been better looked after now? Because bowlers are better looked after now? Yeah, I think so. Or just going out there. Absolutely. It's just a bit of back pain, go on. Goal through it or whatever. Yeah, I think I'd be managed a lot.

At 17, 16 years old, though I could bowl perhaps at 90 miles an hour, I had no understanding and managing myself. So it was difficult to manage your body. and uh has to be come that's butch coming in the back just giving him a salute yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i miss butch very early's career ball is dad of course yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah the tms podcast from bbccadio five live bring more gear carry more passengers face greater challenges welcome to the world of defender with seating up to eight, ample cargo space, and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure.

Learn more at landrover.ca. So, okay, bowling with tremendous pain. So you had to stop. And then what happened next? Then I went through an incredibly depressive period when I very nearly decided to take the ultimate thing and end it all, because I was just so depressed. Anyway, I went off my ex-wife now, or my wife at the time, she said, look, Rick, go and see my mum, and she's a psychiatrist.

And she basically said, look, you're depressed, you know, you need to get out of England. So I went off to America backpacking and going around, so I was away from cricket, not seeing it. And decided I wanted to fly airplanes. No, this is something. Not everybody does that. My cricket career is over. I'm going to fly airplanes now.

Was that something that was sort of in your mind from a while back? Absolutely. I'll tell you, as a 12-year-old, I'd ridden my bike down to the Harbourn in Barbados, and I'd watch the American Navy landing planes on an aircraft carrier. I'd wang on my way for a little tour of this thing and sat in the cockpit of this thing, and I thought, whoa, I'd love to do this, you know? And I went home and said to my dad, look, I like to fly airplanes,

and my dad said, my dad said to me, black people don't fly airplanes, you know, think about doctor, lawyer, or something like that. And I remember thinking, as the kind of kid I was, I'm going to be the first to do it. I'll show you, you know. So obviously cricket, then sideline by cricket, and then, of course, when it all came to an abrupt end,

this is the only thing that I thought I could do. I thought, I got no interest anything else. So I went off and decided I went to flight school. So what was that process? How easy was that? It was nightmare. because I didn't have much money. And, you know, they don't tell you that most pilots,

apart from being white, most pilots are quite middle class. They all have lots of money to pay. And our pilot license, and today's money is £120,000. And I had very little. So I was on a sort of shoe string and having to do everything at one attempt. I didn't have two attempts to do anything. But I managed to get through the whole course at one attempt.

and then put myself on the market only to find that I could not get a job anywhere. Because? Well, I don't know. But what I will say that all my school colleagues got jobs and I did it.

So the only job that I could eventually get was to fly off to the Caribbean and go and work for the local airline over there, which I did. But I continue to write to various airlines around the world and eventually I got Virgin Atlantic

sent me a a letter one afternoon I said, look, you know, we'd like you to come for an interview. What did that feel like? Amazing, amazing. And I turned up to the interview, and I'd been to a few interviews before all of them ended in failure. And so I was quite apprehensive. I walked into the interview, did the interview.

And, you know, they asked me about my prickety career and background and all that kind of stuff. What age were you here, then? At this stage I was 29, yeah. So I spent three or so years. going to flight school and that kind of stuff. And anyway, at the end of it was a group discussion. I suppose they wanted to see how you are reacting with other people.

And this guy walked in and he said, hey, you know, my name is Captain Newby. Which part of Barbados are you from? And I said, do you know Barbados? You know, and he said, yeah, of course. My wife is a Barbadian. So that was my little bit of luck. And, you know, within three months or so I was flying for Virgin Atlantic. Wow.

What was that like? flying a jumbo for the first time you know absolutely amazing going from bowling fast to fly in a jumbo is just I mean you it's the most iconic aircraft anywhere on earth

and I've got 20,000 hours in that thing and then you become a captain yeah I am within six years at Virgin I went up for command managed to pass that and I started to fly in the 747 as a captain it's funny actually everyone does their job

after a while it probably feels quite mundane you just turn out for work and just do it because you've been doing it for years but I almost strikes me you're sitting in that cockpit just about to take off and you're responsible for the lives of all the people in the back of the plane what's that like well I once asked the old captain

when I first started flying commercial I said you know how do you deal with the sort of pressure of 400, you know, 400 people. And he said to me, just look after yourself. Don't worry about that. If you get there, they'll get there. And that's how I sort of thought that was quite good way to rationalize it. So you were flying for, what, I just say, work out, what, 20 years or something like that?

And then? And then I fell down the stairs one afternoon, or sorry, one morning I arrived back from Barbados. Fell down the stairs, thought nothing of it. Went away for four years, but started to have headaches and all kinds of stuff. Eventually, I was playing back from L.A. on the 787 now. I'm now on the Dreamliner. And just didn't feel right. So I stood myself down, declared an emergency, called in ambulance. And they found out that I had a brain bleed, which was something that manifests itself from four years previous to that. It took them basically four operations to find out exactly what to do and to solve it.

And what did that mean for your flying career? Well, it means that my flying career is still on hold now. One of the issues, and I'll tell you quickly, my mom used to have all the family over. Every Christmas she would have this massive party, and she'd bring all the families. And my mom has got a lot of the brothers. My granddad had fairly active loins. And anyway, so because this was coming up to Christmas, I asked that nobody would tell her that I was sick.

I didn't want to ruin the party. So after the first operation, nobody told us, second operation, and the third operation, and then it made a turn for the right, for the worse. So now I'm at death door, and they decided, well, we're going to have to tell her. So she's flying to England on the 22nd of January. this is 2019 and so I got up in the morning the 22nd January

walked into the toilet and decided to lock the door turn the shower on and suddenly I have this seizure the mother of all seizures now 40 minutes in this toilet and I can hear people come into the door and going away because it's engaged

and so I'm lying on the floor and I've had three things in my mind at this time even though this siege is still going on A, never lock a bathroom door again. Now, this is even going to come back and haunt me on the way up here on the British Rail train when somebody walks in.

Well, that's happened to a few people before. Absolutely, right? The second thing, the show is still on, so I'm getting wet, lying on the floor while I'm seizing. And I remember thinking, don't ever have a bath because if you have a bath, you're going to drown. If I was in the bath at that time, I would definitely drown. And the third thing, your mum is outside.

You're not dying today. You know, maybe tomorrow, but not today. You're not going to die today. And that was the three things that went through my mind during that period of time. How did you get out? Well, as you'll see in the book, I heaved my way to the door

and basically lied at the feet of a nurse as the door burst open. And that seizure went on for another, 45 minutes after that. So basically I'll cedes for two and a half hours. And the only, well, the thing that saved me is that I was relatively fit. And the other thing that saved me was my determination, of course. And the only way they could stop that seizure was to induce a coma. So I was in a coma for four days. And how long ago was that? This is 2019. Right, 2019. 2019. So January 2019.

So the surgery saved your life? Surgery saved my life. The fourth surgery, so they eventually found out that I had had a membrane that was built up over the brain bleed for the four years previously. And it basically had grown big enough that it has shifted my brain to one side. And that's what was causing the issues. So once they clear the membrane, touchwood, I've managed to be seizure-free and, you know, fairly healthy.

And what do you have to do to get back flying again? I have to, basically, it's time. I have to prove to them that I'm not going to have another seizure. And that only time, because nobody knows when you're going to have another seizure. You know, anybody can have a seizure anytime. So I'm just waiting basically for a five-year period. And for them to have a look and say, well, no, you have an other seizure. Maybe we'll give it back to you.

Do you want to fly again? Yes, I'd love to finish it on my terms. Yeah. That's what I'd love to do, on my terms. Right. Here's an email from Ninian Goff. Do you remember this name, Ricky? I was in the same house as Ricky at Malvern College schoolhouse, albeit three years. Oh, okay.

You might not remember. I might not. I'd bowled at him. As a 13-year-old, I watched him bowling, the first 11, and the keeper and slips were pretty much on the boundary. I also believe that some teams refused to play if he was in the Malvern side. Quick wasn't the word. At least I can say, both Ricky and I play for Moulbent First 11. Presumably not the same time.

Legend, yeah. Absolutely. It was a good time, good house. And we met some good people. Hostmaster, Aladdaf, Topman, you know. And I wish that he was around to see me, A, fly a 747 and B, be selected for England. Were you in U.S. airspace when 9-11 happened? Yes, I'd come back from USA. space and I'd flown a jumbo back into England.

So it didn't, so it wasn't like how to be affected? Well, it affected in the fact that all the airplanes was grounded and included mine. But it didn't affect me as in. I flew out of Boston, one of the airports that they actually used on the same day. So I was there. And here's Chris Swift. I used to work on the sports desk of the Worcester Evening News. And I remember taking part in a six-aside pro-am at New Road,

part of Ricky's benefit season. In our first game, I managed to drop him both of them at deep square leg. It was going like an exit missile and in the second field at a straight drive by Rob Bailey off my own bowling

and broke a finger. Oh dear. There we go. Well, it's nice to hear that people sort of listening and reconnecting members of you. The clock has been, do you still have time to watch cricket? I do, I do.

And since I've this injury, I've managed to... Spend a lot of time. So I've been to Australia to the T20. I've been to India for the T50. And I was just in the T20 in the Caribbean. So I've done, spent a lot of time. Did the flying make up for the cricket, the fact that you had the injury and had to retire?

Is it made up? It's been a fantastic second career? Absolutely. I love flying. It's a brilliant thing to do. I mean, to fly an aircraft, you know, a jumber jet, you know, 450 people we can carry. And you be the one that's controlled.

and you cannot get any better than that. Brilliant. Thank you very much. I've done two jobs in my life. One is a sportsman, one as a pilot. And I think you ask most little boys, they would say we do anyone. Well, thanks so much to Ricky for joining us. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast.

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