Test Match Special - Brendon McCullum: ‘Top 7 will stay the same’

Episode Date: December 14, 2025

England head coach Brendon McCullum speaks to Stephan Shemilt ahead of a must-win third Ashes Test at Adelaide Oval.Eleanor Oldroyd, Stephan Shemilt, and the Press Association’s cricket correspondent Rory Dollard discuss how England shape up after their break in Noosa, as well as what England’s squad could look like on Wednesday with McCullum all but confirming that the squad’s top seven will remain unchanged from the second Test defeat at the Gabba. Plus, Australia allrounder Cameron Green has his say on how players deal with close encounters with the media.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. This month in football, everything is up for grabs. The Premier League battles intensify, the Champions League reaches its crucial turning point, and the World Cup draw sets the stage

for the biggest tournament on earth. Football Daily from the BBC brings you sharp analysis, instant reaction, expert insight and the stories driving the game on and off the pitch. Your essential football podcast

delivered every day. Listen to Football Daily on Spotify, to Football Daily on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, welcome to Adelaide Oval. This is Eleanor Aldroyd.

Refreshed from their much-discussed trip to Noosa, England have arrived in South Australia and are preparing for the must-win third test that begins on Wednesday. So many questions after Perth and Brisbane have this side found any answers. We'll hear shortly from head coach Brendan McCullum and get the view of BBC sports,

Stefan Shemalt, who was in Nusa on the beach, plus the Press Association's Rory Dollard as we build towards one of England's biggest matches in many years. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Yes, welcome to the Adelaide Oval for the first time in this series. We will be bringing you full ball-by-ball coverage of everything that happens here from Wednesday onwards

and it's always a pleasure to be in this ground with its historic scoreboard. It's backdrop of Morton Bay figs, the cathedral just hidden away. behind the new stands which have grown up over recent years. It's very much an Australian rules football stadium as well as a cricket ground, but we love it for the historic associations, particularly with Don Bradman.

And also some quite good days in England's relatively recent cricket history as well. Rory, Stefan, welcome up here. Stefan, before we get stuck in, you want to take me to task on what happened in LSA. It's not often that you and I fall out, Ellie. But in the intro then, you said that I'm fresh from the beach, I think, in Nusa. I can confirm that not once did my feet touch sand in Nusa. So, yeah, I wasn't on holiday, you know. You were not in your trunks.

No, absolutely not. Surfing and rubbing sun cream into the backs of the England team. Well, even if I'd wanted to, I don't think they would have let me. He has got a straw hat on and a pina collada in his hand. I have to mention that. Rory, in contrast, we're sitting here at the moment, watching the England squad go through their paces, doing some pretty full-on fielding drills out there.

This, you know, you ought to be careful about drawing too much from just a couple of minutes but they've done some running on the outfield and sprints and shuttle runs and now they're whacking balls and fielding in sort of a circuit style and I feel like I haven't seen them do this for quite a while

quite a while it feels like a bit of a throwback do you know what? Anyone who's played club cricket or know the drill where basically someone stands by the square and wax high catches out towards a boundary where the players are in a line getting ready to take them it is a bit like that just at a much higher intensity. Yeah, and there's keeping a few

more in their hands than than I would recognise from Club cricket. Well, you've got a broken finger, haven't you? I'm sorry. So I gather. And I suppose, and they're not doing it for us, are they? They're not doing it for the journalists who are lined up in the press box over there. But we're going to hear from Brendan McCullum in a moment. And I

kind of got the sense, Stefan, from his press conference, that they're quite focused now, this England team. They're not making any excuses for underperformance. They're embracing the underperformance in a way and saying this has got a change. We've got three tests to save this series and to try and win the ashes back and

everything has now got to happen and anything else that Brendan McCollum could have said just wouldn't wash would it? There's no way he could have turned up today in Adelaide and defended the way that England played in the first two test matches and said that they were anything

other than up for the fight because some of the things that he did say after the gabber I think rubbed people up the wrong way, particularly saying that they were over-prepared for that Brisbane test match when there had been so much debate around their preparation. Any explain those comments as well? So, yeah, everything that we would expect or you'd want England to be doing from this moment,

hopefully they are doing. Oh, Bethel's just taking a screamer. Well, we will talk about whether we think that there'll be any changes, whether there might be a place for Jacob Bethel or Shouye Bashir in a moment. But first, let's hear from the England, but first let's hear from the England head coach, Brandon McCullum, speaking to Stefan. Brendan, this is a question I never thought I'd ask an England coach, but can you just give me a reaction

to the scuffle in the airport yesterday, please? Look, to be fair, I didn't see it. I don't know to what level it was. Obviously, we've got security team which are trying to protect the players. I don't know where on the line that's at, but from our point

view, I felt like a message when we came down here is we want to be really respectful of everything that goes on. Obviously, we operate in a slightly different environment. as well and we know the optics and the eyeballs which are on us here and the scrutiny which is on us and I think we've dealt with it pretty well over the last few weeks and we'll continue to try and do so taught me through last week you know what happened in the airport came at what you guys hope was a productive week off the field really good week yeah really good week we'd plan that trip to noosa a year ago and and I think if anything was

it could have even more importance for us I think you know where we've been in the series so far as we've not been up to the standard we expect of ourselves with bat ball war in the field. I think, you know, to be able to head away, get away from cricket for a couple of days, you're still having cricket conversations, right, in a more relaxed environment. To be able to sort of dissect what have been, but not be, not be too bound by, but start to plot and plan our way forward and our way back into the series and to do so in a relaxed setting. The boys have now turned up here and are fizzing to get into the training and start prepping for the conditions that we've got and the tasks that we've got in front of us just before we look ahead to this week

maybe clear up a couple of things from the end of the Brisbane test that could have been misinterpreted from the outside world you mentioned about maybe being over-prepared for the gabber was that something you thought ahead of time or you looked at in hindsight and why you thought that well first of all I mean there's things that you say and these things that you do which and the jobs that you're in sometimes it's better for the scrutiny you'd be on yourself and with nine days

in between games we felt that was quite important the over-prepared nature of things there is no perfect preparation if there was there's 4,000 balls you're hit and it guarantees your average 9-2 or your bowl however many balls and you guarantee 10 wickets and we'll do it, don't worry

that doesn't exist and for me there's training smart there's been able to identify what's going to give you your best chance of succeeding in the conditions that you're coming up against. And then there's just hitting or bowling for the sake of it. It's kind of to running past the principal's office. You're doing it for everyone else, but you should just be doing you running on your own.

And that's what we expect. And I felt five intense days of preparation may have just tapered us off a little bit where we ended up, we didn't play the conditions in front of us as well as what we could have done. Was that because we physically weren't as fresh as we needed to be? Was it because we weren't mentally as fresh as we needed to be? All I know is we weren't quite at the level we needed to be. And I stand by those comments. I think five intense days leading into a test match is not the best way to prepare.

We'll be working out our next three days, making sure that we get ourselves in the right frame of mind and the right skill level to be able to go out there and perform. And I think for us, as we look towards this test match, it's trying to identify, and this is probably where we missed it at Brisbane. is identify on this pitch, what is the risk level that I need to negate? How am I able to take that risk out of play? How am I able to transfer that pressure back on?

What areas do I need to hit with the ball? How do I evaluate the game, the conditions and the situation and then make a game plan to be able to be successful in that? Sometimes if you train on flat wickets the whole time and you train, you train, you train, all you're seeking is that level of perfection. This is not a perfect game. This is a game which is incredibly inconsistent

and you need to be able to play what's in front of you. And I didn't think we did that as well as we could have in the last. There's a couple of things that you and Ben said as well after the gabber. I think people took up and sat up and took notice. You said about you can't have a glass jaw in Australia. Ben said that the dressing room is no place for weak men. What did you mean by those things? Is it about, I don't know, guys collectively getting in the battle,

not shying away from the fight, making good decisions in pressure moments? Yep, all of those things. I think when you come here, you need to expect that you're going to have to wear a few to get on the inside, if that makes sense, and boxing parlance. I think, you know, Australia is a tough country. They play tough cricket, tough country, they're full of tough people. And if you want to go toe to toe and earn the respect to Australians and to be successful against Australia, you need to be prepared to stand up and wear a few to get on the inside.

I think you can't feel sorry for yourself. If you can't bemoan bad luck or worry about what's been, you just got to keep getting up and going again. And that's what we meant by those comments, both Ben in his language and myself and my language. And I think they're very similar messages, and as has been the case right throughout, we work incredibly closely. We have very similar beliefs. I do feel like there's a feeling that we go about our work in a very casual manner. I couldn't be further from the truth, to be honest. The level of intensity which we try and operate with

and the hard edge that we try and bring to this team is all encompassing. It's not just in team meetings and things. It's how we try and live our lives and how we try and set about this cricket team. And I think over the past, we've done that at times and that's what's going to be needed in the next little while. And then it's a matter of having the freedom in your mind

to go out there and not be worried about, not be worried, but to be able to handle the expectations. of performance. And I guess that's how we're trying to set things up. And I think that's what both Stokes were trying to allude to last week when we made those comments. Do you think those messages have landed with the players from the conversations that you've had with them in Newso?

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. We know we haven't been at our best right. And that's, you've got to admit that. You can't walk away from that. You can't start pointing fingers elsewhere. How do you remain tight as a group? What do you need to do to be successful in the conditions in the city?

you're coming up against and get out there and have another go. And you do that and then you give yourself a chance. If you don't, the 2-0 becomes 5-0 real quick and that hasn't worked for anyone. I think, you know, there's not many teams that have come down here and won, and particularly teams which have been behind the eight ball and have gone on to win. And that's because for numerous reasons, but our team will come down here and we'll try and make sure we stay level, honest with ourselves, put the work in, but then go out there and have another go.

another go right a few half-volleys about the team which you might smash into the stand but i know you've been on this side of the microphone before so i'm going to ask him anyway very good right so imagine the same top seven this week i would say so roll for show this year not sure we need to have a look at the conditions we've got a squad of 15 here which you know have a five test series and we know that we're going to have to call upon all if not if not, well, majority, if not all of those, we'll work out what we think is the best option for us to be successful in these conditions.

I guess similar answer, if I was to say, you're going to refresh the pace attack, maybe with a Josh Tong coming in? Similar answer, yeah. Two years ago, you said, you know, 2-0 down, 3-2 had a nice ring to it. Similar feeling now? Yeah, well, what's the alternative?

Like, I think, I mean, we've been here before, we held the fort last time, when all those around you're losing your head, it pays to keep yours, and that's the job of a leader, And as a coach, as a captain, that is our job, is to be able to get the team to believe that we can come back from being 2-0 down.

When we turned up in Australia, we knew we were going to have to win three test matches. Nothing's changed. It's just how we handle the fact that we're 2-0 down, how do we iron out some of the areas where we've been poor, and how we start to put some pressure back on Australia and see what they're made of. At the moment, they've been outplaying us in those key moments. and this is a team which that hurts, right? We come here with high hopes and high ambitions

and the moment we're not living up to it. So we need to recalibrate some of those things and it's not throwing out what's been successful in the past. It's just making sure we drill down on a couple of areas that we can be successful, which will give us our better chance. And I firmly believe it's adapting to conditions. We know what Australia's going to bring at us now. Well, we knew beforehand, but we've been too slow to adapt to it.

And this surface should suit us a bit more as well. If we win this game after what's been a long nine days, with lots of different narratives being talked about, if we find a way to beat our best in to win this game, then I think things shift around a little bit. And that's what's in front of us over the coming days is to hold the form and keep moving towards the target. And just as the last one, is it different this time, though,

to being 2-0 down? Because a lot has been built into this series about, I don't know, defining the time that you and Ben have had in charge. this week are jobs, careers, reputations on the line? That's professional sport, right? You know that when you take on jobs like this. You can't worry about any stuff like that. It's certainly not how I don't do jobs,

and I don't make calls to hold on to jobs. Is that easier for you, though, than the players? Can you have that mentality, but it's hard for the players to think like that? Yeah, but that's your job, is to protect the players, right? And I'll never shy away from protecting the players because they've got to go out there with bat in their hand or ball in their hand, skill in front of millions of people around the world. So, you know, I will always protect them.

And if that means putting yourself in the fire in line, then so be it. You're a big boy, you can handle it. You don't get to feel sorry for yourself. That's why you took these jobs for these moments where your niche is to be able to handle the pressure at its highest and to keep everyone connected and together and not be jumping in shadows, just refocus things a little bit, recalibrate things to touch and keep moving forwards. If we do that, then you've got a chance to come back from 2-0. If not, you do what every other team that's come down here before has gone down 2-0 do. And they spend the next month or so feeling sorry for themselves

and walking away with the result you don't want. And there are some very fine cricketers that have come down here. It doesn't pay to lose your environment. It doesn't pay to lose faith. It doesn't pay to lose belief in what you're doing. that's my firm belief it's how I've tried to live my life and it's how I've tried to coach

this cricket team as well and that's not going to change just because there's more on the line. Thanks your time, good at all this week. Thank you. Well that was Brendan McCallum chatting to Stefan and in a moment we'll talk through what he had to say but let me remind you to subscribe to the Test Match Special podcast

and if you search Ashes on BBC Sounds you'll find all of our content from the ongoing tour. The next test starts at 1130 on Tuesday evening with Test Match Special live on Five Sports Extra and on BBC Sounds from 1055 in the evening your time. And every day's play in the series will have highlights on the BBC Eyeplayer, as well as the Daily Ashes debrief with Alex Harley.

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Match or lease Urgent questions Subscribe to the podcast And you'll get the best bits Every day from around 5 o'clock Listen on BBC sounds Well sitting here high in the press box At the Adelaide Oval

are BBC's chief cricket reporter Stephen Shemult and the press associations Rory Dahlard He got into a lot Rory Didn't he chatting to us all A little bit earlier on Brendan McCullum There is a lot on his to-do list not least bat better

ball better feel better that would be a good start wouldn't it he doesn't often do these previews so it's interesting he's made a habit in the past of only speaking at the end of series or at the star of series occasionally at the end of a test match

for him to do a big 20 30 minutes of question fielding and fronting up for the team is a little bit unusual and it maybe says a little bit about the fact that the team's under the pump and they're in a bit of a trench And he's taken it on himself to sort of be the man to sort of field those first batch of questions post Nusa. And there was plenty in it.

You know, there was, he had to talk for the first time. I don't remember him ever been asked about his job being on the line. He was asked that today by one of the Australian journalists. And that's sort of an antennae moment in sports journalism. The first time a coach is asked, are you the right man for this job? He's often the start of a road. But he was prepared for that and sort of he fronts everything with a smile break. but it does feel like this week has cranked up a bit and you described it I think as one of the biggest test matches of England's recent history and it feels like that for quite a lot of people him being one of them he was quite I mean you know he said that's part of the job isn't it part of the pressure of the job is answering questions like that is being the focus of attention in the way that they have been this England team over the last 10 days or so and actually interestingly when he was talking to to the assembled media earlier on he said actually you kind of miss those moments when they

you actually quite think, well, that was, that was, you know, you're doing an important job. Do you know what? That was the only question about his future. I thought he didn't answer well. And the reason I thought that was, he was talking about, I'm not here to save my job, that you don't think about the pressure. And one of the things I've always thought about Brendan McCullum is he doesn't need this job. His legacy is assured, certainly as a cricketer, as a New Zealander,

of everything that he's achieved on the field. If Brendan McCullum was to lose his job after this tour, he would get another one. Is it the same for the players? That's why I asked him that question in the interview. Is it easy for you to say that now? But how do the players feel? And maybe that is the reason why he was doing the fronting up, that he is trying to shield the players from that pressure

because some of them will know that these next three test matches, and if we're being realistic, it's this test match, that might shape their immediate international futures. I think it's okay for Brendan McCullum to say that he's not feeling the pressure. I bet some of the players are. Well, you described it just now, Rory, as basically doing a Marineo. Yeah. He sort of said, because I think a lot of people, I'm sure a lot of your listeners,

were wound up by the over-prepared line. It seemed to take on a life of its own. There are words and lines that get used in sport, aren't there, that seem to typify or embody an entire period of time. and over-prepared after going 2-0 down in six days of cricket seemed like one of them. And he moved to sort of suggest with a nod and a wink that he was doing a marino,

that he was keen to steer the heat and steer the attention away from his players and suck it up himself. So I think there's a chance that that's sort of an explanation, partially that he was willing to be a bit provocative and take a bit of heat for himself. But the thing that he knows and everyone who's out there trading right now in front of us will know is that that's fine for a day or two in between games. But as soon as they walk out over that line, the heats on them. Well, the thing about lines coming back to Horn, to England coaches, while we're at a venue where a line, where Peter Moore's may or may not have said, we will look at the data when England went out of the World Cup in 2015.

I think to your point, Rory, about the marina. I wonder if in the moment he meant what he said and actually a few days later that is quite a good explanation for it because if Brendan McCullum genuinely thought they were over-prepared and I think he said five days intense training is not the way to prepare for a test match

well who's signing off on that because he's the head coach so who is deciding that they are having that they're training for five days and I know when we're looking back here rather than looking forward so if he if his explanation is now well I was just taking the heat off the players

and he doesn't mind looking I don't know a bit silly or whatever well someone still said that they were going to train for five days who was it but you can see why he would say that can't you in a way because it was really hot in Brisbane it was baking it was you know they were putting long long hours into the net and you know I've covered enough sport around the world

an international Olympic sport and that kind of thing and you know that there has to be a taper period that if you've overtrained if you you you know you train well or you train and you train smart but you don't train it's easier to train too much yeah and i think listen there's almost certainly they would have liked to do things slightly differently over these last few weeks whether they could have got hold of the whacker made that arrangement a bit more firm with cricket australia we gather that's a conversation

that's being had right now about about warm-up periods in the ashes in future but it's a little bit unfashionable or something to say it but England aren't 2-0 down because of what happened in Lilac Hill and they're not 2-0 down because of what happened in Canberra or didn't happen in Canberra they're 2-0 down because of some bad decisions out in the middle and I know you can be battle-hardened but there's nothing tells me about a practice match

that Harry Brook wouldn't have gone and chased one there's nothing that tells me they wouldn't be playing some of those shots The results have been achieved out in the middle, not in those practice days. Well, I mean, I think the message that I got from Brendan McCullum was, you know, you've got to bat bowl field better, but you've also got to think better. You've got to just use those pressure situations better, just make better decisions out there. And actually, if he's the coach sitting up in the stands, and to some extent, well, I mean, Ben Stokes will be sitting in the dressing room as well for the majority of the time,

you know, they've got to, they've just got to get that into their heads somehow. And again, this is what was addressed, I think, with the, my dressing room is no place for weak men in Australia. You can't have a glass jaw. I never took that that Stokes or McCollum in the aftermath of the Gabba were calling out individual players. I took that to be a collective attitude that England have shown on this tour so far. And I'll use the comparison of, can you remember Lords against India this summer,

when we were all getting quite giddy about the needle between the two teams you know, Zach Crawley and Mohamed Saraj going at it, Duck it and Saraj with the shoulder barred. Shubman Gill was in there as well. England were at it throughout that summer. We haven't seen any of that yet on this tour.

Apart from in that final Australian innings when the game was gone. When the game was gone. And so I do wonder if there was a time particularly in Australia's first innings at Brisbane when England couldn't get through the tail and it looked quite easy for Mitchell Stark and Scott Boland to be pushing the ball back and England were walking around in the heat and there wasn't a lot of buzzing around

I did think if Ben Stokes was looking around going where is everyone here and I think that is what Ben Stokes was getting at in the weak men comment I don't think there was a particular you are weak you are weak because you have done this that or the other well I'm sure that these will have been conversations that they will have had chance to have over the last 10 days or so. So, Stefan, what actually happened in Nusa? What can you tell us? Well, I think in Nusa, it was difficult for England to do anything other than what you saw in the press. So Nusa is a very small place. There is one strip of shops, bars and restaurants, and there is a beach. And that is it. So if England wanted to go and sit in a bar

and have a drink, everyone would see them. If they wanted to buy an Akubra hat like Crocodile Dundee... Your commission. Yes. I wish I was.

And six of them are all walking around Nusa wearing a hat while they're going to be seen. And if they're going to go and play golf, well, we know they've been seen playing golf in other parts

in Australia, but they're going to be seen. And all their time in Nusa, England embraced that. They knew it was coming. They knew there was going to be attention from the locals. They knew there was going to be particularly handsome journalists following them to Nusa, and they would be seen by them. I wasn't there, by the way.

And they were absolutely fine with that. And, you know, part the car up on, what was it, Tuesday afternoon, walk around the corner, first person I run to, Ben Stokes. And he says, how great is this? He was happy, whether he was happy or not to see me, I don't know, but he was more than happy. Happy to be there. Happy to be there, more, you know, happy to have a conversation. walk back down the street on the other side of the road who's there

Brendan McCullum looking for a convenience store telling us that this is the place that he's been to quite often because he played for Brisbane Heat in the Big Bash he's got an Australian wife it's one of his favourite holiday destinations if you want to drink lads there's the pub over there there's my favourite fishing chip shop they were relaxed about all those sorts of things the only thing that obviously didn't relax them

and it was only a member of the security staff is what happened in the airport yesterday yeah well just remind us of exactly how that incident unfolded Yeah, England were travelling through Brisbane Airport, come to Adelaide yesterday afternoon. They had to drive from Nusa to Brisbane to fly here. And then just as they were trying to move through Brisbane Airport, there was a reporter and a cameraman from the Australian TV Channel 7. One of the England security staff tried to put himself in between the cameraman and the squad.

And then there was, I think I'd call it a back and forth that continued through the terminal. and ultimately seven broadcast on TV and on their social media channels seven released a statement last night to say that they thought it was a physical confrontation between the cameraman and the member of the security staff. England have said nothing until today

when Brendan McCullum addressed it. Cricket Australia said nothing either. I think a couple of things to sort of, I think for context, cricket Australia earlier in the series had said to all media to keep a respectful distance was their way of putting it from players during their transit through airports. And I think that had to be reiterated because players from both teams do get it.

Internal flights are a way of getting around this country. So often, Australian players get doorsteps, if you will, in airports. It's one of the things actually that Australia like about touring England. They don't have to take internal flights. They just drive around the country. And actually last year, Virac Koli got into a... a confrontation with a reporter as well at Melbourne Airport because he thought that some of the filming at the airport

had crossed the line. I think it was six of one and half a dozen of the other. It didn't look great from either side. And Brendan McCullum has drawn a line under it today and I think we move on. Yeah. I mean, it's a pattern of behaviour, though, from the media, from the headlines,

the pommy idiots, the e- scooters. We'll listen with the media as well. Yeah, but apologising to the people of Queensland, they're on the wind-up out here, no doubt about it. And if you're close enough to be touched physically by the security guard, you might be too close. Actually, in England, I've dealt with it pretty well. Actually, all the way, if you think all those things, being followed through Perth airport, the e-scooters, being followed to the golf course. In Perth, they got followed to an aquarium.

And all the time, they have done pretty well with that. And this is the way that the media works in Australia as well, isn't it? Because it's very much regionalised. It's the different states have their own local newspapers, local TV crews. and the Channel 7 TV crew who were involved in this coming together I think to call it an altercation is slightly

excessive but you know they led the breakfast news bulletins this morning on Channel 7 nationally It's also the star power of cricketers in this country I think if we were to say the similar situation of if there was access in the UK to filming

I don't know Harry Kane or Jude Balingham or whoever walking through an airport or playing golf or visiting the aquarium. Rory, you've covered England. You wouldn't get anywhere near that close to them. No chance. They have a perimeter way bigger than these guys get.

And interestingly, as I was walking to the ground a bit earlier on, I walked across the Riverbank Bridge and coming in the other direction were Usman Kowager, Pat Kamins, Michael Nisa, the whole Australian squad pretty much walking back from training, very relaxed, wearing their kit. And let's hear from one of that Australian team. Here's what all rounder Cam Green had to say this morning. on all the intensity surrounding the tour.

I don't think you're ever used to it. I think, yeah, especially on your off days, you pretty much want to forget about cricket and just be a normal person for a few hours. Yeah, I can understand it can be quite frustrating to be photographed when you just want some downtime. So, yeah, I don't think you ever get used to that. Did you guys ever feel like, I don't know,

there was intrusion on you when you were in England, obviously there was a time when there was a lot of attention on you, Jali after the Lord's test much, did you feel like they haven't got too much? No, I don't think so. I think most of the time people are quite respectful, so I think you're always don't think it's as bad as it is when you're not in that situation. So I can't quite remember what it was life a couple years ago, but yeah, to answer your question, you don't quite get used to it.

But from a fellow professional's point of view, do you have any, I don't know, sympathy with the way that England have been followed around this country? Oh, oh, certainly. I think, yeah, you never like getting filmed, especially when you want to get away from it. Yeah, there's always sympathy for anyone in life that's getting filmed in public or in a private space. Yeah, it's never a nice feeling.

We're high-profile people, and that just comes with it, unfortunately. When you're going really well, you like the extra attention when you're not. You don't enjoy it. So, yeah, it's just part of the jail, unfortunately. Well, that was Cam Green. I mean, he's very sympathetic, isn't he?

And as was Alex Carey the other day when he was asked about news. So they all know how this works, really. But the thing is that if you're winning, it's great. If you're losing, you're getting all that focus, aren't you? You're an easy target. Yeah, listen, also, to be really, really simplistic about it, the more people talk about what happened whilst Steph was wearing his fake moustache and pointing out on the beat, hiding in bushes.

The less we're talking about England's cricket, and that's probably doing them a bit of a favour, really. I think more on the cricket, less on the bodyboarding. I mean, you gave me an interesting quote yesterday, Steph, about the way England have handled themselves off the field on this tour. And you said those moments, the scooter, the aquarium, the beach, the Acuba hats. You know, it has been, they've been in the firing line a lot or in the public eye a lot. But they don't seem to have shied away from it. No, and what we spoke about yesterday,

the only thing they haven't done well in this country so far has played, cricket. That's the only thing they can do now to improve their tour of Australia. And realistically, as a combination of things that would get them to improve their cricket, well, they've got it here. The conditions in Adelaide, Brendan McCullum even alluded to it, that this should be the place that England would play at their best. It's probably going to be the best batting service that they've encountered so far. The boundaries on the square side, certainly are much shorter so I don't know if Jamie Smith's taking on those hooks or pull shots they'll go for six rather than to the hands of a fielder and maybe just maybe for as much as they will brush off what happened yesterday as a as a non-event maybe there's something that that's galvanised them and of course they've had their their week together in Nusa and in terms of you know what might happen this week we had Brendan McCullum saying to us I don't think we're going to change the top seven well as they go through their slipfielding drills right now and Now, I think we're getting confirmation of that with Root, Brooke Crawley at 1, 2, 3,

Ben Duckett at sort of the first gully and most interestingly, Olly Pope at the second gully. Because if there was going to be a change, you'd think it would be Pope, and therefore you would expect right now to see someone else in that position. So does that surprise to you, Rory? It does a little, to be honest. I think for Ben Stokes to come out with the comments he did after the match that Stefan's offered a reading of, It does, even with that being said, it strikes me as a bit of a surprise to come out with such strong comments and basically not make the gamble. These lot have made quite a big thing about the fact that ultimately they're gamblers when they pick players out of county cricket with hardly any first class wickets or runs.

They do so and it's a punt. It's following a hunch. And I expected after Brisbane that they would flip the switch on that while the series was definitely alive. I think if they make a big selection change, a big switch, and it's at 3-0 down with the series gone, it almost doesn't mean a great deal. Like, I thought this team, this management team would have taken the risk sooner rather than later.

Do you think I was wrong on that, on what I'm reading of as a collective rather than individuals? I did a few. I would have said that a few hours ago, but the fact that they haven't swapped out Olly Pope suggests that you might be right. And bowling-wise, could we see showy Bashir appearing here, or will they be happy with Will Jaxx as their spin option

with a bit of Joe Root on the side? Well, McCollum didn't rule it out. I think the way that he described it was, go away and look at the stats on this ground. You know, the bowlers that perform, the way that wickets are taken, the pitch maps and all those sorts of things. I thought that was a pretty reasonable endorsement, actually, of Shoeb Bashir's. from what my personal view

is that England should stick with Will Jacks at number 8 and play their front line seamers to me that would be their best attack at the moment not least because of the way we've seen Bashir bowl in the tour games but it seemed to me that McCollum really did leave the door open for Bashir to play. He did leave the door open

but it's definitely now one of the most interesting things you're going to see on this too is whether they pick Bashir because it's the most obvious sort of project that they've had in selection terms. They've picked people here and there. Bethel's played. Josh Hull played, things like that. Bethel's been the consistent one. They put 19 games into him over a couple of years with an eye on particularly this game. Bashir. Bashir. The first two games were always

going to be Pace-dominated. If Bashir doesn't play this game, what was that? You know, what was that all about? It's kind of the takeaway, because this should be a spinners pitch. The The only thing is the way that England players have played him. When they played the Lilac Hill match, he played for England and the Lions and bowled against both the teams. He went at six and over in that game. They attacked him. People who are boosting him up for the last two years,

bashed him over the top. These are short boundaries. He went nought for 115, I think, in the Australia A game. This is a real test of their instincts and their gut feelings that they've really followed to the ends of the earth this lot. They've followed their gut, and they've got 48 hours or so to decide how far they're going to follow it now with Bashir.

And I thought about Australia. We know that Pat Kamins will be back. We haven't had it. I haven't seen the squad, but we assume that he will be back. He's got to see next to his name in the squad. And he's on all the publicity now, isn't he? So Pat Kamins will be back.

Nathan Lyon, again, you'd have thought, good record at this ground. Usman Kowager? I think there's a wild, hard to throw into this decision. So I think there's a lot of people who think it is Kowager or Inglis. I'm going to throw Bo Webster into the conversation just because if Australia are bringing back Pat Cummings and aren't 100% sure about the bowling of Cameron Green, then Webster just

offers them a little bit of bowling cover and if it is going to turn and bowl spin as well. I'm just going to throw that out there as a possibility. Okay, you're Ben Stokes, Roy Dollard. You're standing out there on Wednesday morning. Yeah. and it's hot it's considerably hot than it is today

you're batting or you're bowling really good questions so I think he's obviously chosen to bat first both times he won both tosses

logic suggests he shouldn't win the toss again his looks got to run out at some point I know that isn't how

probably he works but he might just not get the choice do you know what I think I think this England team with all the overthinking

and all the time for reflection that they've had I think they might need to go back to we'll have a chase please which was

in those heady early days of basball where they used to win the toss decided to make a joke out with the fact that batting second meant chasing I think if you take this team back to first principles it's give us a number on a board

and we'll go chase it and that's what I'd probably like to see them have a go out I agree with that and just as a final thought on the whole week really in terms of the enormity of it and what it means to this team

and this regime and this philosophy of how in, what day is it today, Sunday so the test match could finish a week tomorrow, a week on Monday, how we judge everything we've seen over the past three years in hindsight, because

in a week's time, or a bit more than a week's time, we are going to have a lot of hindsight on England's philosophy, England's selection, and even their trip to Nusa, and it is all going to be framed by what happens on the field, and that is why it's brilliant to sit here to watch and talk about cricket and the decisions other people make

and it's really hard to be the person in the dressing room making those decisions and playing the game well that crunch test match starts at 1130 p.m on tuesday evening your time test match special will be live on five sports extra and BBC sounds from 1055 every day's play in the series we'll have highlights on the eye player as well as the daily ashes debrief with Alex Hartley, thank you so much to Stefan Shermott and to Rory Dollard, and we'll see you soon. This winter, cricket's oldest rivalry is reignited. England and Australia do battle to compete for the ashes. That is extraordinary.

Hear live ball-by-ball commentary on five sports extra. And get analysis and reaction of every. days play with the test match special podcast. The stops out of the ground. Test match special at the ashes. Listen on BBC Sounds. This month in football,

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