Test Match Special - Brook 'I made a terrible mistake'

Episode Date: January 21, 2026

Kevin Howells is alongside Jonathan Agnew and Stephan Shemilt to discuss the future of England's leadership team ahead of the white-ball series against Sri Lanka. They question how big the series and the following T20 World Cup is for head coach Brendon McCullum and Harry Brook's off-field conduct.Plus, England's white-ball skipper speaks to Stephan about how he needs to 'earn the trust' of his team-mates.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Kevin Howells. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast, where England's men are preparing for their white ball series in Sri Lanka before the T20 World Cup, which is now just over two weeks away. But as we've sort of got used to in recent weeks with England at the moment, it's matters off the field, which are taking the headlines. I'm alongside the BBC's chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew and the chief cricket reporter, Stephen and Shemmelt. Hello to you both. First to Steph, you're out there in Sri Lanka right now. There's just no stopping this, is there? From one country to another. How are you coping? I'm fine. I suppose it gives a little bit of an insight, doesn't it, into what the players are up to as well in terms of their winter. You know, England started in New Zealand,

then onto Australia and now straight into this tour of Sri Lanka that precedes the World Cup. And of course, they're young men, their international cricketers, what's not to like about playing cricket for England. But there are lots of other things that go with that. And I guess that's what we're going to get into today with what happened with Harry Brooke in New Zealand and a lot of the off-field stuff that went on in Australia and what might change as a result.

And as a knock on to that, the changes that are enforced, things like curfews and cultures and some on-field things like a fielding coach being brought into the England setup, what that might mean as a knock-on to the hierarchy, particularly Brendan McCullum, how results might be impacted, and whether or not Brendan McCullum feels like

that is an environment he can work in going future. So there's lots of different things to unpack about this England team, about the setup in what's been a very short space of time. We're less than what, two weeks since that final ashes test ended in Sydney. Jonathan, how are you enjoying? what can only be described, I imagine,

as the more refreshing morning or afternoon walks here in the UK. How are you settling back in? Yes, it was 43 in Sydney the day I was supposed to go. I did have two cancelled flights. Actually, we didn't get back to about four days, I think, after we were supposed to. But, hey, you know, these things happen. But, you know, Stefan's right about the whole travel aspect.

You know, it is easy just to kind of just think, well, there are international sports, and then to get on with it. but you know they are young men with young families often they won't have spent much time at home I'm not offering that as an excuse at all for what went on in Australia and in New Zealand but it is just it's interesting to put it into context isn't it

the amount of time that England's cricketers if they're playing every format do play these days and how much time they spend away so just briefly before we hear from Harry Brooke with all the experience as a player you have as well as a correspondent over however many years it is. This is not new really. These sort of issues we're talking about here.

We've had very high-profile cases in years gone by of England on tour. Can you put this Harry Brook episode into context with other events, say, in the past? Right, so we're talking off-field stuff here. We're not talking about the preparation. So we're talking about off-field. I mean, okay, I can take you back to the Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll Tour of New Zealand, which was 1983 or their about. A lot of the allegations unproven, I hasten to add, but that's what that tour was dubbed.

And there was a fairly high profile, very well-recognised figures on that tour. Ian, both of them was on that trip. So, you know, personally, I can take it back to that. There's the pedolo or the Fredelow, if you want to call it that. And that was, of course, in the West Indies before the World Cup there with Andrew Flintoff, famously the evening before a game. He was dropped, of course, for the match the following day. I think, I mean, I don't know anything really since then.

And I think that's, you know, the 2013 tour of Australia kind of fell apart. But that wasn't through this sort of thing. That was more individuals not getting on with each other and falling out. And at the end of an era for a team, and everyone kind of knew it was unraveling. Okay, well, let's hear from the England whiteball captain then. He's done quite an intriguing interview here as Harry Brooke. obviously facing the media for the first time since details emerged of his incident with a bouncer in New Zealand,

which was the tour before the ashes, of course. Here he is right now. He's been speaking to Stefan. Harry, how are you? How is your time at home? Was it, I know, long enough to reflect on everything that happened in Australia and New Zealand? Yeah, it was very cold at home. It's nice to get back out to a hot country.

But, yeah, it was nice to get home, spend a bit of time with the family and some friends. Can you just explain to us what happened in Wellington the night before that third one day international? I'm not going to go into any details, but obviously I made a terrible mistake. Not only as a player but as a captain, it's very unprofessional. I should be leading from the front and showing the players how it should be as a professional cricketer and a captain. And I put myself in a bad situation which I shouldn't have done. And yeah, I've learnt from my mistakes.

I've reflected a lot on what's happened and I know it wasn't the right thing to do. And I want to say sorry to my teammates, to all the fans that travel far and wide to watch us spend a lot of money on coming out to watch us play cricket and supporting us and to the ECB for putting them in a tricky situation and it'll never happen again.

And like I said, I'm extremely sorry. You said you put yourself into a situation that you shouldn't have done. why were you out drinking on that evening and is that something that normally happens the night before a game? No, it definitely doesn't. We just went out for some food and yeah, we just said let's go for a drink and there was no intention of going out, no intention of putting ourselves in a tricky situation. It just managed to happen and yeah, obviously if I had my time again, I definitely wouldn't do it again. There was an incident outside a nightclub you felt that you needed to tell the management about

what happened. Yeah, definitely. If I hadn't have told them and I didn't get them punishments, then the punishments would be even worse and more severe. So I'm glad that I told them, I trusted the ECB and telling them that I've made a mistake. And yeah, thankfully, I'm still playing cricket for England and that's a childhood dream. And like I said, the punishments could have been a lot more severe. So I'm glad that I told them. And that we dealt with it. Did you tell them straight away before the game? No, I told them mid-game.

I felt like I needed to reflect on it and try and come up with a plan to negate what had happened really. Was it resolved before you went to Australia? Yeah, we'd sorted the disciplinaries and the fines before that. Did you think you'd be sacked? It was definitely playing through my mind, definitely. Like I said, thankfully, I'm just playing cricket for England now and I can concentrate on what we've got going forward.

And as a captain, I know that I've made a mistake and that's not setting the example. So me as a player and a leader now, I've got to try and take this team forward and see what we can do over the next coming weeks and months. Did you consider resigning? No, I never came into my mind. I left that decision to the hierarchy.

Look, if they'd have sacked me from being captain, then I'd have been perfectly fine with it as long as I was still playing cricket for England. Do you feel like you're lucky to still be on the job? Probably slightly, yeah. But like I say, even if I had been sacked, I'd have held my hands up and said, look, I had made the mistake. And I'd have been perfectly fine with getting sacked from the job as captain as long as I was still playing cricket. Obviously, this didn't come out in the media until after the ashes, but you knew it had happened.

Was that hanging over you during Australia? Did you feel like it affected your performances? No, I just thought that they were a better side than us. They played much better cricket than us. But you personally, your personal performances? No, definitely not. I thought it had all gone by, to be honest. I didn't think it had ever come out.

And obviously we got struck with it after the last test match. And yeah, I don't think it affected my performances at all. Knowing what had happened in Wellington, why were you so open with things like drinking in Nusa? Why were you happy to be photographed in bars and things like that? We weren't exactly happy to be photographed. We were looking over our shoulder every second to see if there's a camera there. It's quite public there, wasn't it, to be drinking on this side of the road?

Yeah, definitely. And look, we're in such a high pressure situation and series with the Aussies being as good as what they are. The country, with press, paparazzi following us around everywhere. It's just nice to be normal humans, go out and have a drink and try and relax. and yeah that's that's one way to take your mind off the game is just having a drink with a few mates we were we were drinking responsibly bar one situation other than that we were we were completely in control of what we were doing and we were just going out and having a drink and it was nothing nothing silly what you think about suggestions of a drinking culture in the team is that fair I don't think there's a drinking culture at all we're all old enough and growing up enough to be able to say no if we don't want to drink and and growing up enough to to be able to say yes if you do want to drink. But is there a curfew in place now? Yeah, there has, and that's been made a group decision.

We think that it's the best thing going forward for the time being to be able to put us in situations where we can win games of cricket and perform at the best of our ability. Do you think, I don't know, grown adults and professional athletes should have to agree that you've all got to be in back in a hotel at a certain time to get the best out of your performances? I don't know what it's like in other sports, but it's probably a lot stricter in rugby football and stuff like that.

So I think for the time being, I think it's fair enough. Yeah, and look, it's only in our best interest to try and go out there and perform at the best of our ability and take this team forward. Back in Melbourne, Rob Key said to us that maybe the decisions the management had taken about preparation and some of the things that had been taken around the tour, didn't give the players the best chance of succeeding in the ashes. Did the players give themselves the best chance of succeeding in the ashes with their off-field behaviour, attitude towards training?

Do you feel like you gave yourself the best shot? Yeah, definitely. I think you've got to be able to relax away from the game. We obviously had that week off in Nusa, and that was a perfect opportunity to go and relax downtime, take your mind off cricket, have a couple of drinks here and there, as long as you're drinking responsibly. Our preparation I think was good enough to do. It was the best preparation I've had before cricket,

apart from that incident in New Zealand, but yeah, we still trained as hard as we ever do. We still worked hard away from cricket, gym-wise, running, and yeah, I think we just got outperformed throughout the series. There are other ways to relax there, other than drinking. Australia's a great country. There's lots of different things you can do. Yeah, absolutely.

It wasn't just drinking. We were just going out and getting leathered every day. We were having a few drinks here and there. We were playing plenty of golf, going to nice cafes, having coffees. But yeah, we had a few drinks here and there. I don't think that's a bad thing. It's just what human beings do. Do you feel you've still got authority over this team? I think I've got a little bit of work to do to try and regain the trust of the players. I said sorry to them yesterday. I felt like I needed to say sorry for my eyes. actions, it's not acceptable, like I said, as a player, but as a captain, it's really not acceptable to do what I did in New Zealand. And I'll be the first person to say that I'll hold my hands up. Obviously, you knew what had happened in New Zealand before a lot of England fans got on that plane to Australia who'd spent a lot of money and time travelling there thinking that that was England's best chance to win the ashes in Australia for a very long time. What do you say to those supporters who now, and do you understand that a lot of, lot of those supporters are quite angry at what transpired both with yourself in New Zealand

and then performances in Australia. Yeah definitely and they have every right to be annoyed. Like I said, I've made a terrible mistake. I've put myself in a situation which I shouldn't have done. Did it affect my cricket? I don't think so. I'd have still played the same way. Obviously, I didn't get a score that I'd have liked, but yeah, I still played the same way. I think that they played better cricket than us and look, I'm extremely sorry to all the support. for doing what I did in New Zealand and I've got to try and regain their trust again in my ability in my cricket on the field and off the field so I'm hoping that they can expect that I'll be slightly different away from the game I'll be more professional and that's what

I've got to do now for the rest of my career hopefully and yeah I just want to be back playing as good a cricket as I possibly can be what does changing away from the game what does being more professional look like well not getting myself into a situation like I did in New Zealand We're only two weeks on from being in Sydney from the end of the Ashes series. And there's a lot of players who are here who are there as well. How good is it, I don't know, to change format, change kit, change countries to do something different? Yeah, it beats being at home, the freezing cold, but yeah, it's completely different. We had our first training session yesterday and it's completely different to Perth.

I can tell you that for a fact with the bounce, the pitches, that's something we've got to try and assess over the couple of training sessions that we have before the first ODI tomorrow so yeah try and bat as much as possible and bowl as much as possible on the surfaces that we've got you've got a team yeah we're going with Corley Duckett, Routt, Bethel

myself Butler Jacks, Curen Overton, Dawson Rashid and a chance for Zach at the top of the order in one day cricket yeah we've seen how good duckie and creeps can be up at the top in test cricket for the last three or four years we know that there are

dominant duo and the height difference, the left hand, right hand difference is, yeah, it's something that we like at the top there and they get the best out of each other. You'll know that there's, I don't know, pressure I guess on the management, the very top and maybe Brendan in particular. How much do you guys feel that over the next couple of months you owe something to him to produce some results both here in Sri Lanka and at the World Cup? Yeah, every tour that we go on, we want to try and win. This isn't a special one. to, obviously the T20 World Cup, but every tour we want to go on, every game we want to go on, we want to win.

So, yeah, we've got a big series coming up here against a strong side in their own conditions, and then it's good preparation before the T20 World Cup. You need some wins as well for that one-day ranking to make sure that you qualify for the World Cup automatically. Yeah, definitely, and we won't be taking these games lightly at all. We want to go out there and win and play our best cricket. And just finally, from me, how are the guys that, that, that are the guys that, that are that were in Australia, you said yourself that you didn't want to be at home in the cold,

you'd rather be here and playing cricket, but everyone's different. Some people need rest, some people don't. How are the people that have already been on tour quite a long time so far this winter? Yeah, good, I think. You can't take your England cricket career lightly. Obviously, I've made a couple of mistakes in the last couple of months, but yeah, you want to play every game that you possibly can do for England and everything. Everybody's really looking forward to this series. Like you said, it's a big series. We need to win a few games of one day cricket

and then the T20 is a perfect preparation going into the T20 World Cup, especially in these conditions where the T20 World Cup's gonna be played as well. So everybody's looking forward to it and everybody's on a bit of a high at the minute. Just finally, a fielding coach, specialist fielding coach joining you guys

for the later part of this tour and for the World Cup. How much, I don't know, is admission that maybe you didn't get that quite right previously during the Ashes and that that discipline is something that you really need to work on going forward. Yeah, look, I think there was a stat out there in the Ashes that we dropped 17 catches for 500 runs or something like that. So in Whiteboard Cookie, it makes even bigger difference. You can win or lose a game from a drop catch or a catch.

So, yeah, we felt like it was a good decision to bring in a fielding coach and try and make that area of our game a little bit more neat. and yeah like I said it can win you again. Extra attention paid on that in training? A little bit more, yeah. Yeah, definitely. And Hopper is a very good fielding coach, so we're looking forward to having him back. Back with Stefan and Jonathan shortly.

Remember TMS will have live commentary of every ball of every match on the men's T20 World Cup in India and Sri Lanka. That gets underway on the 7th of February and you can listen to that across BBC Sounds, 5 Sports Extra and the BBC Sport app and website. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Well, there's so much to go out from that interview, isn't that, with Harry Brooke. I wonder what you made of it there listening. He seems to be saying all the right things. But, Stefan, do you think he understands that the weight of what's happened here and now what needs to happen? The thing I'd like to know, I think, Kevin, is what would have happened had the telegraph not ran that story of, of, Harry Brooke and what happened in New Zealand. Because as Harry Brooke discussed there then, England have now put a curfew in place, starting with this tour of Sri Lanka. Players and staff have to be back in the hotel on the premises

by midnight. It might cause a problem if one of these day-nighters runs a bit late. But everything that happened in Australia came with the knowledge of what happened to in New Zealand. So the trip to Nusa went ahead despite England knowing what happened in New Zealand. Some of the other things that happened in Australia, other instances that we saw of the players out drinking happened with the knowledge of what Brooke did in New Zealand. So if that report from the telegraph had never seen the light of day, would some of the things that Harry Brooke is talking about now, would they be in place? Would Harry Brooke be making that apology? Would there be a curfew in place? Would other changes that may come in the England

set up in the future? Would they have happened as well? So I think it's interesting that Brooke was the first person to speak about this. Obviously, he's the white ball captain and he would have done media today anyway. So he was in the situation whereby he was explaining his actions as well as telling us about, you know, who's playing in the first one day international tomorrow, a new fielding coach, why Zach Crawley's opening the batting. But as of yet, we haven't heard from Richard Gould, Rob Key, or Brendan McCullum on what happened in New Zealand and why it was kept quiet for two months.

And they might explain that with sort of duties of confidentiality towards Harry Brook. It's an employment matter and all those sorts of things. But if journalists hadn't uncovered that story, would we be even having this conversation right now? Straightforward question this, I guess. But is it important that journalists uncover these stories for the team to be kept honest? I think it's very important. One thing we haven't mentioned is that it was his final warning, I understand. what was the other one for?

You know, what else has happened in the past with Harry Brooke? I think the reason that it all kind of sped up at the end of that tour was because we all saw things ourselves. Well, that's one of the reason. And, you know, there's little sporadic incidents. And if you read some of the newspaper reports at the end of the tour, you'll see those sort of examples of what I mean, that at the time don't seem particularly important or newsworthy,

but when you put them all together, that's when you come across the ill discipline that there is off the field with that team. And putting there again, the cricketers hat on, if you're all disciplined off the field, there's no way you're going to be disciplined on the field. The two do go together. Curfew is a death silly.

A curfew just demonstrates that you don't trust the players. The players should not have a curfew imposed because the players should know themselves that they shouldn't need a curfew imposed. They should be in bed by midnight the day before a game. You don't need to be told to do that. You're not little schoolboys. And that's where I think this whole thing has just become far too loose.

You know, these are... The stuff about Nusa we've talked about to a blue in the face or in Australia. I found a handful of people, that's all, who felt that going to Nusa was a good idea. I felt it was a wretched idea from the start. I felt it was always going to be a disaster. And there's Harry Brooks saying,

well, we had this break off between the two tests, so we went to Nusa. Well, all tours have breaks, but cricket tours play cricket matches in the breaks. These people played 18 days of cricket, if you take out the nonsense at Lilac Hill, which clear was a waste of time. 18 days of cricket in, what, 70 days?

I mean, is that really taxing? We've talked about the need for practice, excuse me, we've talked about the need for getting players who are not in the team in form. We've talked about, the need for getting players who are out of form in the test team back in form by playing some games, you're on a cricket tour. There's as a clue in the actual title of it. And so to say that

this was some sort of break, oh, we didn't know what to do. So, well, we played golf. Listen to trotting off the golf and that stuff. You know, it sounds terribly old-fashioned to expect cricketers to play cricket. But, you know, where is your mind? Where are you psychologically when you're away from home on a cricket tour if you're not playing cricket. You're there to play cricket. That's the reason for you being. And that is what trains the mind. Is this not associated very strongly

with Brendan McCollum's attitude of remove all pressures, almost treat every game as if it's the exact same as the last one you played and the next one you're going to play? It's all part of that thinking, isn't it? I think you're under more pressure if you know you're out of form. You haven't scored any runs.

and you're about to face Mitchell Stark again in five days' time, having not faced him since the last time he knocked your middle pole out. That's more pressure than going out and playing a game of cricket, getting 50, 60, 70 runs winning a game. That would be nice, wouldn't it? Ingram to go out and play a first-class game or whoever it is and winning. That's what takes pressure off, not hacking round a golf course or sinking pints in Nusa.

I don't understand the thought process behind that. I just don't. Yes, everyone needs a break. But these are elite athletes. Paid a lot of money to go and fulfill what for all of them will have been a childhood dream, to go on the ashes and to go and beat Australia. They should have won that series.

They never once played against Australia's strongest team. I just don't think that they went about it right. And it all has to change. And whether McCullum will be around to see that change through, because it goes entirely against, his philosophy. I mean, a curfew goes against Brendan McCullum's philosophy. So maybe that's a step in the direction of him, I don't know, exceeding to what would appear to be demands from above. And he talked about Richard Gould and Richard Thompson. You know, the PR for this last tour,

a few of the ECB has been a disaster. You know, they have got to get English cricket back on the rails for people to have confidence in what they're doing. And as for Harry Brooke, look, I think a lot of people are running out of patience with Harry Brooke. I'm sorry to say so. We've heard these conversations before. We've heard this stuff. I've done this wrong. I've done that wrong.

I've played stupid shots. And he goes out and plays stupid shots again. I think the thing for Harry Brooke is to actually put action into action and not to say words. We have to see that there is a big improvement in his attitude on and off the field. If he's going to be captain of England, then he has to show a big change in attitude. otherwise Jacob Beth will take over. And I know he's young, he's got a long way to go. But if Harry Brooks not up to it,

if he can't be more grown up on and off the field, his shot selections in the ashes was really poor. They just kept coming as if he didn't really care about it. He has to change on and off the field, otherwise he won't be England captain any longer. Stefan, from Brendan McCollum's point of view, there are two changes possible here, aren't there? I mean, one is McCollum going,

the other is that McCullum himself changes. From listening to him, you don't get the impression that that necessarily is going to happen. But Carl Hopkinson, for example, he's in again. He's been brought back in as a specialist fielding coach for this Sri Lanka series and the World Cup immediately after that. We don't know if that was McCollum's call to do so. But do you think that he can adapt

after all reflecting on these last few months? Something that Agers and I, spoke about at the end of the ashes on the ashes debrief on the eye player was a mantra that Brendan McCullum lives by as a coach and as a player and his phrase was if you can't change a man you change the man and that's what he's done actually with some of his players think of the players that he's discarded as England coach Ollie Robinson is quite a good example of that And at the end of the Sydney test, we knew that both Rob Kear as the director of cricket and Brendan McCullum as the head coach were going to be given the opportunity to stay in post if they could enact the changes around the England men's team that the England hierarchy Richard Gould and Richard Thompson wanted to see. And it looks like that Rob Key is going to be given that opportunity and therefore it is his response.

to work through those changes and potentially imposing them on Brendan McCullum, and we've already started to see them. And as Agas touched on, a curfew is not very Brendan McCollum, and Carl Hopkinson, the fielding coach, while he was moved away from the England set up, when McCollum assumed control of the White Ball team at the end of 2024. And I think a good point to make at this stage is if you cast your mind right, back to when Brendan McCullum took over the test team and he found that the players weren't allowed a bacon sandwich in the morning because the nutritionist said that is not what, you know,

high performance test cricketers should be eating before a day of play. So Brendan McCollum bought the bacon sandwiches back at the start of his reign and now he's been told that his team have got to be in before midnight. Those two things don't seem to mesh together very well. We've got, what, weeks I think between now and the end of the T20 World Cup and we'll wait to see how England go in that and there may still be more changes to come remember England don't have a full-time fast bowling coach a couple of the assistant coaches have come under fire jeet and pittan marcus truss gothic those are trusted McCollum lieutenants might they their positions come under scrutiny but might England in the future be asked to change their selection policy and take more notice of performances

in county cricket? These are all things that might be, I don't know if I want to use the word imposed on Brendan McCullum, but suggested as changes around the setup. And he said at the end of the Sydney test, if he is not the man steering the ship, then maybe someone else would do a better job. Well, we're going to find out if Brendan McCollum still feels he is the man steering the ship and if he can fulfil the rest of the 18 months left on his contract. Jonathan, are you at all surprised that Brendan McCollum is still in charge? How important are these next six or so weeks for him and to the management team? Well, it's certainly clearly very important. I mean, one more off-field incident and that would spark all sorts of crises and there would be, you know, McCollum would

have to go. I mean, I don't think there will be. Sri Lanka's not really the sort of place that happens, frankly. So I think probably that that'll be okay and the curfew will be unnecessary unless as Steph says they're sort of trundleing back on the bus from a postponed

day-night game. I thought it was unlikely that McCullum would go between the Ashes and the World Cup, simply because it's just too short notice. But the rest of it, I think if you look at the three in charge. We'll go another step.

And we mentioned Richard Gould, the boss, the chief executive. If he looks at what people think of English cricket at the moment, the England cricket team, the men's team, that's a really bad look. What a terrible picture. What a really poor image that is at the moment of the England men's cricket team. You can't escape from that. The stuff that's been written, the stuff that's been said, the stuff that's happened. and more than that, but the way that they've laid themselves open

for it to happen, it's been self-inflicted. Harry Brookstuff, self-inflicted. Nusa, self-inflicted. Lack of preparation, self-inflicted. The way they played in Australia, self-inflicted. You know, it's not...

If you're looking at that, you have to impose change. And I know imposing on stuff is kind of, seems a bit strong, but it has to happen, isn't it? If you're the boss, you can't have that landscape out in front of you. You have to change.

You have to make things different because it's unprofessional. What happened was unprofessional. And so somebody has to be accountable for that. I've felt actually there's Rob Key that's accountable for that because he's McCullum's boss, if you like. They're big mates and that has to be something that's going to make it awkward. That is not an easy relationship for Rob Key suddenly to tell Brenda McCollum what to do. Now, because they're big mates,

if McCullough wants to keep the job, then he might well, obviously, take on the things that are being put his way. But, you know, you can't change a person. No, Brendan McCollum is Brendan McCullum. That's the way that he played cricket. It's the human being that he is. He's an extremely sociable, very friendly,

very affable, very easygoing. fella, you know, that's what he is. And at the time, and I think it's really important to stress this, at the time that he and Stokes came in, they were a breath of fresh air. And the whole start of the bas-ball, if you want to call it that era, was because of Brendan McCullen.

He brought that breath of fresh air. He instilled that environment in that dressing room that enabled those larger same players to rediscover themselves and to play good cricket again. And he deserves a huge amount of credit for that. Where they've got it wrong is they didn't see actually that there was a point at which they had to stop that, or at least keep where they were, but then recognise that they're not going to consistently win against good opposition by continuing

to play in such a lackadaisical, ill-disciplined way, and also the off-the-field they had to tighten up. And that's where they've gone wrong. And if they can get back to where they were, if you're like, the first part of it, but with the discipline instilled in it, then I think there's still a way they can go forward, but they have to accept. They have to accept that the nonsense that we had for the last two and a half years of that time was nonsense. And

people were telling them it was nonsense. And they were told that they were not irrelevant, that the game's changed. You don't understand, sorry, it's all different. Well, it's not. Stefan, Jonathan has talked about Rob Key in all this. Is it possible that only

one of him, or McCullum, survives this, given how close they are perhaps as friends, as well as working colleagues. Yeah, I think that there is definitely a world where that happens. I would say at the moment, by the time England play their first international of the summer, and that is a test match that the most likely scenario is that Rob Key is still the director of cricket, and Ben Stokes is the captain, and it is the future of Brendan McCullum that is now most in doubt. And even if England were to do well in the T20 World Cup, well, I'll remind you that the last,

T20 World Cup, England got to the semi-finals and Matthew Mott still lost his job. Just picking up on Agar's point about the image of the England men's team at the moment, well, I'd actually throw the image of the England men's and the England women's team into the mix there at the moment because of the things that came out of the women's tour of Australia just over a year ago in terms of fitness and results. And then at the T20 World Cup before that, players on boat parties. before they got knocked out of that competition. At the moment, Charlotte Edwards still hasn't turned results around fully there.

And I guess just to bring it back, and this is definitely not one that we've got time for in this podcast now. I think we'd be here all day. But when Agers mentioned that the Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll Tour of the early 80s, well, at first I thought he was talking about his own career. But actually, there is a, there's just an entirely wider debate to be had about, alcohol's role in cricket. And talking to Phil Tuffanil

during the Australia tour, he would have said, well, these lads aren't doing anything that we didn't do. In fact, put five of their drinkers against me and Wayne Larkins and Alan Lamb, and they wouldn't have stood a chance. And we know that Travis Head has enjoyed himself during that tour because he was winning and nothing gets asked there. But really, cricket is in the dark ages.

isn't it when it comes to professional sport? When you look to what rugby has come in with its professional era, what professional footballers do. Some Olympians, they do not touch a drop in the four years that they are building up to their competition. And so to take this full circle around the entire culture about not just England and what they might do going forward and curfews and improving behaviours

and therefore improving your attitude towards on-field performance and what you do in order to be fully prepared, well, maybe the entire sport of cricket, and you'll know this as well, Kev, from the time that you spend around county cricket and everything that goes with that, well, I would say that, I don't know, cricket might be 20 or 30 years behind other sports

in the way that it goes about things off the field. Yeah, of course, but as you say, that's another subject. The disconnect between England and county cricket, for example, certainly talking with directors of cricket, and some of the coaches who maybe now upwards of 50 years of age and above just below. They say to me, Kevin, it's nothing like you was, say 15, 20 years ago in terms of any drinking culture. But that's for a whole different discussion. We've got to remember, of course, that there are some matches coming up for England as well.

We're hoping to enjoy those for England on the field. Their ODI series against Sri Lanka on Thursday. And England's 11, just to remind you, from what Harry Brooke has said earlier today, this is the lineup. Zach Crawley, Ben Duckett, Joe Root, Jacob Bethel, Harry Brooke as captain. We've got Josh Butler,

Will Jacks, Sam Cullen, Jamie Overton, Liam Dawson and Adder O'Shea. Just looking at that 11th, Stefan. What are your thoughts on those? Yeah, so the batting is basically the test batting, isn't it, plus Josh Butler. Zach Crawley gets the chance to open.

I think it'll be his ninth one day international more than two years after his previous game. Jamie Smith is the man who's been dropped from that squad. England are looking for a 50-over opener, looking for one from a county game that doesn't really play 50-over cricket. So they've turned to the other test opener to partner Ben Duckett. For the bowling, five spin options, I think I counted there,

if you include Joe Root. Sam Curen and Jamie Overton as the Seamers. Well, it's interesting that Sam Curen is in there, considering that for such a long time, he was sort of left out in the cold of the white bull set up. but he's now fully back and embraced in there. I guess Joffre Archer would be in that team if he was here and available, but he's still recovering from that side strain.

And England say he's on track to be available for the T20 World Cup. But England needs some wins in one-day cricket if they're going to qualify automatically for the 2027 World Cup. There's sort of a dual purpose to this tour of Sri Lanka to get themselves ready for the T20 World Cup, but to get some wins in one-day cricket because they do not want to be missing out on automatic qualification

and then going through a qualification tournament somewhere in the world. Okay, well, many thanks to Stefan and to Jonathan. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode, including no balls with Kate Cross and Alex Hartley. And remember, TMS will have live commentary

of every ball of every match of the men's T20 World Cup in India and Sri Lanka. That gets underway on the 7th of February and you can listen to that across BBC Sounds, Five Sports Extra, and the BBC Sports app and website. Thank you very much for listening, and we'll speak to you next time. Five Live Sports. Let's get the show on the road on Rod Laver Arena.

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