Test Match Special - “Brutal” decision to drop Roy for the World Cup

Episode Date: September 20, 2023

As England drop Jason Roy from their World Cup squad in favour of Harry Brook, Henry Moeran speaks to record breaking England bowler James Anderson, World Cup winner Ebony Rainford-Brent, BBC Sport Chief Cricket Writer Stephan Shemilt and TMS statistician Andy Zaltzman.Plus we hear from England national selector Luke Wright.

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We're building up to our coverage of the 50 over World Cup starting on October 5th, and England have made the decision to select Harry Brook over Jason Roy, something that has sparked plenty of discussion. Here's thoughts first of England's record wicket-taker, James Addison, with Simon Mann. Obviously a difficult decision for the selectors, but I don't know I mean they've gone with what they feel is their best

sort of squad their strongest squad and Harry Brooke is in that and Jason Roy isn't obviously Jason Roy didn't take part in that one day series against New Zealand because of injury but was looking like he was getting back fit but I feel like they want that you know it was the feeling that

they want the cover for the one to six rather than Jason Roy just being able to cover the top two Harry Brooks, a little bit more versatile and can cover a few more positions. So I'm guessing that that's the flexibility they wanted in that that squad. It feels really tough on Jason Roy, but these decisions sometimes can be, can be very tough. And obviously he'll be hugely disappointed. I'm not surprised that he's turned down the opportunity to play in this game today.

You know, he imagining what the sort of frame of mind he'd be in after that sort of decision. it's understandable but you might not be fit that's the other thing as well we don't know how you match fit he is yeah there is that and I guess there's two ways looking at it actually if he if he did play in these three games would that actually then and did well would that actually sort of you know if the selectors are looking for a travelling reserve or a reserve of some description would he be in that if he did well in this series so you know there's two ways of looking at it but But yeah, I do feel for him because it feels tough having been named in that initial 15 and then not.

Yeah, top-level international sport. It's a ruthless business, isn't it? It can be. Well, that was James Anderson with Simon Mann. Let's hear more now from Andy Zaltzman, our chief cricket writer, Stefan Schemilton. First, World Cup winner and former colleague of Jason Roy at Surrey, Ebony Rainford Brent. It's a brutal one, isn't it? Because I think this is the nature of professional sport.

the reality, if you put yourself in the management, the selection side, his back hadn't allowed him to stake his claim, which, you know, if it was fit and firing, he would have had opportunity, would have been able to put his name in the hat. And then I think also, you know, Harry Brook, there was a lot of noise around him and the summer coming in. And although he didn't impress in that 50 over, he did impress through different formats throughout the summer and kept his name in the hat. and he does provide flexibility in that order from one lower down as well where Roy is more the sort of opener talismanic option there. So it's brutal, but I think it is an understandable decision because you've got a World Cup, you need a squad that's fit and able to get on the park and his back flaring up just meant that he wasn't able to.

Yeah, and four matches that were meant to be that warm up and he couldn't play any of them, he couldn't play any of the eight games. against New Zealand and also you look at the logistics of playing cricket in India as well it's not quite the same as a World Cup in England where you know you could be in a car and you can take journeys very gently and everything else England have eight internal flights if they don't even qualify out of the group stages they go armadabat Darm Shalat, Delhi, Mumbai, Bengaluru, Lucknow, Armidabad, Pune, Kolkarta I mean it is relentless and in between the flights are also long bus journeys yeah other various means of transport you know it's a lot of moving around and i've i've i've been on an england tour in india with a bad back and i have to be

honest it's just tough like he said so i think there was i think there was a lot of weighing up if he was fit he would have majored just stayed in that squad and kicked on but i think there's been a few other questions and then harry brook has put his name in the hat jason roy stephen schemelty joins us uh chief cricket writer for bbcbc sports uh jason roy was told he was part of the world cup scored in what was as we understood it a reasonably set in stone squad announcement a month or so ago, it became increasingly less set in stone as the month went on, despite all these claims that clarity was being sought and they were trying to give us as much clarity as possible. Has this been managed badly, do you think? I haven't heard many

people say that England have come to the wrong decision with the squad that they've ultimately picked. But yeah, the route that they've taken to get there has been an odd one in that we had look right back in August telling us that this was the 15 players that would go to the World Cup and pretty soon after that Josh Butler the captain and Matthew Mott the coach were saying naturally no it's not we might make changes there might be the opportunity

because they kept getting asked about Harry Brooke and when just Butler was saying well there's a lot to happen between now and the time we get on the plane Butler might have meant well someone could break a finger someone could have a back spasm but that was always opaque it was never clear Never clear. Now they had loads of opportunities to shut down the conversation. No, these are the 15 players that we've picked. All being wild, these will be the 15 players that got on the plane. Or indeed. No, isn't the 15th? No, they're on the plane. We keep it open. It was always quite vague. And then just through various different circumstances, so the arrival of Dawid Milan's second child and Johnny Barstow shoulder injury, Harry Brooke had his chance in the New Zealand one day. It didn't really take. take it, and yet still finds himself in the squad.

Now, we had a couple of other players in the squad. David, Willie, was one of them. I think Darwin Malam was the other. When they spoke to the media, they were told us, when they were playing against New Zealand, they were also told, yes, you're going to the World Cup. And when we asked Luke Wright about it, he said, well, yeah, actually, Jason Roy was given every indication that he was going to the World Cup, and then that changed. Now, the reasons that we've been given are that Doward Milan's obviously taking his chance,

at the top of the order. And if Milan is in the starting 11 for the World Cup, then England have decided that with Jason Roy's fitness issues, like Ebbs was alluding to, and all the rigours of travelling around India for seven weeks, and the flexibility that Harry Brook gives to England as a sort of reserve in more places, I've got a little bit of an issue with that, because even if there was an injury in the middle order, that doesn't mean that Milan can't slide down and Roy goes in to open. the batting. I've asked Zolt just to check how many times has Harry Brooke opened the batting in T20 and in particularly list A cricket? Have you got that result? In T20, eight times, 171 runs

average 24. A hundred of those runs were in one innings in the IPL this year. In list a cricket just twice, including one of the games against New Zealand and first class cricket 17 times quite a few years ago but with no success averaged under 15 in the those innings. So this idea that he provides flexibility and he can bat anywhere down in the top order isn't really backed up by stats. It's based essentially on his promise and his talent rather than anything that he's actually done on the pitch. So what it reminds me of is back in the day when England used to pick football squads for the World Cup and they used to say, well, James Miller will go because he can play right back. But no one had really seen him play right back for England. He can fill in. It's fine. And so like the numbers that Zoltz comes up with, yeah, Harry Brooks really, really talented. But would we want him opening the batting in a crucial World Cup game? Because he hasn't really done it. And I think Roy can probably feel a little bit aggrieved, actually.

He's made 200s in his last six one-day internationals. Harry Brooks only played six one-day internationals. He's made 123 runs, and those 80 of which came in one innings. England might have made the right decision. Harry Brooke is a fantastic batter, but I'm not sure about the way that they've got there. I definitely think Jason Roy can feel a little bit aggrieved, because of his record, how important he was in the 2019 World Cup. And actually, when he's played one day cricket,

we know he got dropped from the T20 side, but England always said we feel that one day is his best format, and he's backed that up recently. And realistically, if England really did want cover for a load of different positions, what about someone like Ben Duckett? What about someone like Will Jacks, who could also bowl you some off spin?

I've got no problem with them picking brook. I'm just not sure they've got there in the right way. Yeah, and on Jason Roy's recent form, it slightly encapsulates how he has been as a one-day cricketer for England. He has those two centuries in his last six innings. In between the two centuries, he had three single-figure scores, which was his third run of three single-figure scores in his career, and either side of that, no other 50s in his last 14 innings.

That's something that we've seen from Roy. He's had great periods, and he's had fallow periods. throughout. He has the most productive 10-inning sequence of any England player in one international cricket, 743 runs, three centuries, five other 50s, that was before and during the 2019 World Cup. He's also the only England top-order player in men's ODI cricket to be out for 20 or fewer in nine consecutive innings. So we've had these bursts of form and then fallow periods. But as Stefan said, I guess the fact that he wasn't

fit enough to prove one way or the other what kind of stage he's in at the moment means that there just almost wasn't evidence and we know with Roy that he can click very quickly and he's had three runs of 75 or more in three consecutive innings to put that in context only one player's ever had more than that

more than three different runs of 75 or more in three consecutive ODIs and that was A.B. DeVilleers Virac Holy has only had one such run in his entire career. So Roy's had these great periods, but in between those, he's had a lot of runs of lower scores. So he's ended up with a career average fractionally under 40, but there's been peaks and troughs within that. But he did during the last World Cup and then the build-up to that, he was a key player for England, and he came up with important innings on numerous occasions.

So, yeah, it's a very difficult decision, partly because of the sporadic nature of one-day international cricket, we just don't have the sort of weight of evidence that we had going into the last World Cup four years ago and because of the lack of 50 over county cricket that people like Harry Brooke play we don't have evidence on the replacements either so we're talking about the art of selection earlier on and it is more I don't know hunch based maybe than it's ever been I bumped into J Roy because he's often out on the pitch before games and had a chance to talk to him and you know I asked him how his back is and obviously he was just saying that the spasms kept coming he's meant to play he was meant to be in the side and they would just happen and

I think the the reality is he would have been in that line up if his back would have been fit he would have got on the on the park but I think the nature of the injury which was just so unclear for everybody and I don't think they had a clear train of how it's playing out with some injuries you know I've gone through a million especially around back sometimes they're predictable and you can put everything in place you get the right sleep in the right physio and you're fine and you just manage it whereas I think this one They seem to be unsure. You know, he was expecting to play, didn't quite pull up.

Expecting to play, he didn't quite pull up. So I think the case is quite clear that, you know, the back has just got in the way. He hasn't been able to continue and prove his form and where he's at. And then others have been able to slip in. So he will be gutted. He would have hoped, I guess, as a player, he would have hoped that he could have got that chance up until that first game to do it, based on his experience, based on what he delivers for the side. but they've made the call

so it's going to be gutting and I believe if he was there he would have had an impact that's the sort of place he would thrive but unfortunately he's not Steph we're going to hear from Luke Wright in just a moment but go on he's unlucky Jason Roy that there are so many different players who can replace him

so when you think of the other two players in the England squad who are carrying niggles and didn't feature much in the New Zealand series Adil Rashid and Mark Wood who are pretty much irreplaceable actually with Joffa Archer not being fit and Gus Atkinson and Bride and Kars being so inexperienced, you would say that England are happy to take a punt on Rashid and Wood

is basically two of the best in the world of what they do and they're happy to carry them in the squad. But with Roy, there are so many other options, so many other batters out there, he has become a victim really of the standards that he set in the four years to England winning the 29 World Cup that basically could probably pick two or three batting lineups that would compete well at the World Cup.

And so as soon as there is that little bit of doubt and you're in the odd situation where Jason Roy on the field at least has done nothing to deserve to be dropped and Harry Brooke on the field has done nothing to deserve to be picked really. It's the fitness that is the determining factor.

It's the fact that he's been on the field. That's the kid. He's been able to. Right then let's hear from National Selector Luke Wright. He's been explaining to Stefan the decision. Yeah, incredibly tough as it was in the originally when Harry missed out as well. well, it's not a decision we've taken lightly.

You know, unfortunately for Jason, you know, we couldn't have envisaged him not playing at all in that New Zealand series. You know, we probably at that point in the early squad had him down for opening the batting with Johnny in the World Cup and Milan giving us that cover from probably one to four. But, you know, as things happen in sport, unfortunately, injuries happen. And I think for Dawid, you know, the way he played throughout that series, you know, talk about taking a... an opportunity with both hands.

He was absolutely outstanding. So I think from a selection panel, when we got together, we probably realised that it's slightly changed that David was probably going to be the one that would be opening the batting with Johnny in the World Cup. And then really it was a case of that spare batter. What did that look like? And obviously, from Jason's point of view,

probably covers us really only from an opening point of view. And obviously from Harry, he gives us that cover from one to six and obviously been in great form as well. So, look, it's an incredibly tough decision, but on the same token, it just shows where we are at with English cricket that there are so many tough decisions.

It's a privilege to have those tough decisions, and we've had to make yet another one. Even before Dawid showed such great form, and Jason's back issue became apparent, back when we had this conversation in August, you said that that 15 was the 15 to go to the World Cup, But then we had Joss and Matthew saying there might actually be a way for guys to get in. So can you just explain the sort of the difference in the message that we were getting, please?

Yeah, well, I think as a selection panel, you know, when we picked that 15, the idea was that at that point with all the information we had at hand, was that that would be the 15 that we'd travel. And that was the 15 that we obviously picked in that New Zealand ODI series. So, you know, from that point, it was to try and give those guys as much practice and form as we could to get them ready for a World Cup. You know, also, you know, I said it myself, but it was said it's been spoken about a lot. I think everyone knows that it's that cut off from the 28th when it actually gets locked in the squads. And we're no different to any other teams around the world that, look, we have to always be flexible in any decision making. As I said, we weren't expecting Jason to not play a game at that point. And sadly, that's the way it panned out.

But, you know, we have to try and pick the best squad that we think have the best chance to win a World Cup. So when we get together, unfortunately, you know, things have changed slightly and we have to be able to adapt to that. A couple of guys through the New Zealand series, when they spoke to us, they said, when they got told they were playing against New Zealand that they were also going to the World Cup. Was that the case with Jason? Was there a point where he was told, yes, you are in the World Cup squad? Well, everyone was based, everyone was everyone was told that this is the 15, we're looking to take to the World Cup. you know, I think everyone was aware that there's the 28 cutout off date, but as it was, you know, that's the, unfortunately, that's the root of the side of sport, isn't it? And it's not the nice side of sport that changes do have to be made.

And I think throughout the whole series, it's been spoken about the whole way through this date and changing and, and look, it's not a nice moment to have to change someone who feels like they're going to be on the plane to the World Cup. But ultimately, we have to pick the best squad that we think is. And that's the way we've gone. Who had the conversation with Jason and was he pretty aggrieved when he got the news? Well, look, it's not for me to say what was actually said in there. Josh spoke to Jason first with Motty, obviously, following it up.

And as a way we do it with a selection panel, whoever speaks to the player at that time, we all follow up eventually. But as you can imagine, you don't want four or five, you know, or three or four people ringing you with the same message in the same day. So, but look, you know, the feedback obviously very disappointed. I'm sure he's hurt. But also, Jace knows what professional sports is like. He's been around long enough to know that he's, you know,

I'm sure he's had some disappointing moments throughout his career as well. And as I said, we've had to do the same thing with Harry Brooke as well. But this time for him, it was a good call, you know, and that's how professional sport is. It's not nice at times. It can be amazing, but also it's not always highlight meals. And, you know, we're very aware of that. And I feel for Jason, I've said enough times.

But unfortunately, you know, we had to make a tough decision and we made that. Absolutely gutted is how he described Jason Roy as being. That was Luke Wright, the England National Selector, when Roy received the news that he wouldn't be part of the World Cup squad. Second time it's happened to him in a year as well, Ebony, after he missed that on the 2022, T20 World Cup squad too. So, you know, this is a guy that has contributed. a huge amount to English whiteball cricket. And you think about that Owen Morgan era. And the amount of games are just looking here,

you know, he's played 160 in ODIs, 60, 40s. Andy mentioned that his average in ODI cricket is just shy of 40. And he's passed 50 on 33 occasions. I mean, this is a guy whose numbers are extraordinary for England. You know him pretty well from Surrey Connections. How will he cope with this? Yeah, I know Jay Roy pretty well for many years, spent time with him and obviously get to see him a fair bit on the road. And he's a passionate guy.

He takes things hard, you know, even when I spoke to him the other day. He will be feeling his omission, the frustration. But he's also quite a dogged character. He's been like that since, like, what was fascinating for me about Jason Roy is how even as a young player, he just wanted to get on with it. He wanted to dominate. And others would say, think about this and think about that. old school way of playing. He was a he thought differently then. Um, and he, he's always been someone who's prepared to kind of go out at it, go hard. That's how he plays. Uh, but he's equally

on the other side, it means that he feels it quite a lot. He will be feeling this, but I think the key for him and actually you have to look at other players across history is, the question is can he evolve again to another version of Jason Roy? Because when he started the evolution with this side 2015 onwards you know he was already actually that sort of player that they needed they got the right sort of player in him and he helped create that brand alongside that Owen Morgan era now there are a number of players doing it as you alluded to whether it's Brooks and all the others the Willjacks and people like that coming up Milan providing consistency as well as runs at the high level he's got to

work out how he takes that dominant form makes it more consistent and continues to dominate. It's quite a hard thing to kind of get all three right. But for him to maintain, he's 33 now, for him to be involved in the next cycle, which he could do, you know, it's not hard to imagine he could. That might be the end of his England campaign. But he's got a one, reinvent himself to ensure that he can not only keep up with the others, dominate them in terms of runs in the next cycle. I think the other thing which all players have to deal with is there is many opportunities around the global game and so keeping that motivation on this as an England focus versus if you get offers to go elsewhere as well which will be very

lucrative so I think he what he's got to do is keep his motivation which I think he's got and that's what I think the key thing I know about him from it his motivation and his drive is ridiculously high what he's got to do is then say how do I ensure that in this next cycle I outperform work on my game where I continue to dominate but also I improve that consistency and then I think the other is staying motivated for this next cycle because this will hurt hard I think he's going to have to go away and go look I've missed out on a few injury etc others have snuck in through through different doors but then maintain that but the interesting thing about us as journalists we often write off players at various stages

johnny bears those you know at times we've written off i've seen us write off chris wokes at times and you know you look at them and good players always seem to find a way to come back and come back stronger so I think he's got that in him the question is how does he take these learnings now add that to the fire in his belly which he's still got and I know he's still got that and then make sure that in this next cycle which is going to be mostly his last real cycle to make a difference really up this game step I was actually just listening to to what look right was saying and thinking about again how complicated cricket can be when we always have this business of naming a

provisional squad and then finalizing a squad. And normally a provisional squad's only ever named for that really boring. Some countries didn't name them. But yeah, normally they're sort of picked for boring reasons like, you know, marketing headshots and visas and all those things. And again, it's just a time when cricket sometimes

makes itself needlessly complicated. And I think England, when Look Right did name that squad back in August, they genuinely did believe that Roy was in the starting 11 and that Milan was there as the reserve. So that's where Roy genuinely did come a cropper just through Dawid Milan's form. He's sort of England's great survivor, isn't he? David Milan, he refuses to go away and just churns through weight of runs. And Milan is someone that Roy should take inspiration from. Now, David Milan's 36. And if you think of what he's achieved

in the past couple of years, Jason Roy's only just turned 33. So it's not at all, English. inconceivable that he would be around and you know still playing during the next world world cup obviously we've talked about his fitness and maybe that'll be prohibitive but what jason roy has already done is handed back his central contract so he wanted to play in the u.s league over the summer and the ECB said to him well in order to do that or we're not going to let you do that under the terms of your central contract so he said actually i'm going to i'm going to hand that back and so now what happens from Jason Roy's point of view from in that scenario because we know that we're in central contract season

they'll be getting awarded soon will he get another one will he want another one and that's the interesting thing for Jason Roy because mainly his cricket is going to be 20 over is because he's not going to play any 50 over domestic cricket realistically I should say he gave up his incremental contract for the ECB to play in the USA in the in the MLC League apparently 300 grand to play in the first two seasons of that. So, you know, big sums of money, Andy.

Yeah, I guess the difficulty for Roy trying to get back in the England side is where is he going to score the runs to do that? As you said, he's not actually played any domestic one-day cricket, 50 over cricket, since before the 2019 World Cup. That's the case for basically all of England's regular one-day international players. And his form in T20 cricket has not been great. Since July of last year, he's played 50 matches. just under 22 in all T20 cricket, domestic and international.

So, yeah, he's going to have to put up some really big numbers in those franchise tournaments, I think, to have a chance of forcing his way back in if he doesn't have that central contract. I guess it also depends how England and a lot of the players in the England team see the end of this 50 over World Cup as the end of a, I don't know, a generation, really, of players. Certainly in 50 over cricket and maybe it'll be the T20 World Cup in the Euro Cup in the year. US and the Caribbean next year where a lot of these players their England careers might come to an end certainly in the limited overs form and remember after the last 2019 World Cup England were ruthless with Liam Plunkett yeah his last

game for England was the World Cup final never picked again I suppose a lot of it will be the desire from either England if they're going to give Roy another chance or they're going to move on to other players or Roy himself does he want to work hard and try to get his place back because we know he's been offered the chance to play in this series in the last two games look said to us actually this first game would come just a little bit too soon for him in terms of his back but also there's that tour of the west indies in December which i think will be a very similar situation to this series where england are picking a a completely different squad to what went to

the world cup now if if jason roy's only just missed out on the world cup squad you'd think you'd be first choice in a sort of second string team there's a couple of other situations over the next couple of years whereas a few england series overlap he would get the opportunity in theory if England don't want to move on from him and if he still has the desire to get his place back. Well, that England squad, you mention those players that might be thinking about the final cycle for them in terms of 50 over World Cup cricket.

Butler, certainly would be one of those. North of 30 now. Moeen Allie, Johnny Berstow, perhaps. David Milan, you'd have thought. Adol Rashid, Joe Root, Ben Stokes, David, Willie, Mark Wood, Chris White. I mean, it's pretty much the whole squad. On that squad, you look at the number,

15, 15 players to play in a squad. With all that travelling, all those long days the physical strain, the potential for injury that you do see, consistency, particularly with bowlers and, you know, it is a game that lends itself to it. You compare that with the Football World Cup, where you have a squad of 26. Why is it 15?

It feels very, very few. Well, you can include 16 players, I think, in a football tournament in the game. If you've got five subs, straight away, you can use 16 players straight away, whereas in cricket, you pick 11, unless someone gets injured needs to be a fielding sub, that's it. So I think there's part of the reason is you could be carrying a lot of players around not to do anything.

The other thing in a cricket World Cup is unlike the Football World Cup, if someone gets injured, you can replace them. That doesn't happen in a football tournament. But you're right, 15 does seem a bit skinny. On a sort of test tour of that length, you'd probably be taking 16 or 17 players. But there are just those slight differences, whereas in cricket there aren't subs. and in the World Cup there is the chance for players to come in and actually on the subject of England's reserves

now for so long that we've thought England have got a name three official travelling reserves they'll go to India and they'll schlep around and they'll carry the drinks and whatever that's not the case now look right sort of clarified that for us the other day that in fact even the reserves don't have to be official reserves they might just put three or four players on standby we know that Joffa archer's going to go to the World Cup but that's mainly because that's the best place for him to be in sort of the

the rehabilitation from that elbow injury to be around the England squad and the medical staff. But even if a pace bowler got injured, that doesn't necessarily mean the arch would be the man to come into the squad. England might just feel that most, from their reserves point of view, it's better for them to be having some nights in their own bed, having a hit in the nets, those sorts of things. Rather than, as you say, taking all those internal flights, staying in hotels, they might actually be fresher to go into a World Cup if they're here. And the last time there was a World Cup in India, it was so long that Owen Morgan, I think,

I think it was Owen Morgan, got ruled out at the start, injured, was replaced. Then when Kevin Peterson got injured, Morgan was then fit enough to come back in as a replacement for Peterson. It's ridiculous how long some of these tournaments are, the amount of cricket there is. I expect not necessarily England, I mean, just generally around the world. We're going to see a lot of 50 over retirements because Quentin de Cox named he's, stepping out post this tournament. It's a lot of cricket. The players are back to back. Let's face it, if you played in ashes, well, we saw Ben Stokes, what he's done, but if you played in Ashes 100, your domestic stuff, then this international, then straight into a World Cup,

then off to a test, it's coming thick and fast at you. And I think as players, if you're trying to think about your whole career and preserving your body as a whole as well so that you can perform consistently, you know, a 50 over World Cup, you'll dip in and out, but there'll be less less desire because of the amount it puts on your body. So you could do with a few more players in the squad and there's no doubt there's going to be challenges there. Or we might see lots of players retiring from 50 over cricket and then come back before a tournament as Ben Stokes has done.

Which makes sense. I think let's be honest. I think with the way that the cricket calendars are structured now, as a player, the 50 over is the least attractive. D20, the 100, IPLs, franchise cricket makes sense. A big test series makes sense. India, England, Australia, etc. makes sense. But with the weight of cricket, 50 overs, doesn't make sense for the amount it's being played, for the attractiveness for the amount it puts on your body. It's mostly that one format that's just kind of in the middle for as a player.

That's mostly the least exciting and also puts you through it. So I think there will be players who just go, World Cups at those four-year peaks. the hat, but then other than that, focus on test and T20 cricket. Just going back to Jason Roy. Andy, sorry. Well, I'm going to say there is supposed to be a champions trophy early in 2025 as well. And I think for the future of one day international cricket, we've talked a lot over the last few weeks, how England have played basically half the number of games in between the last World Cup and this one, as they had in between the 2015 and the 2019 World Cups.

And I think, you know, the future of international 50 over cricket may well be much. much more tournament based. So it might be that players don't have to make those decisions that they can sort of dip in and dip into it every couple of years because there won't actually be that much outside of a champion's trophy

or that type of tournament and the World Cup every four years. Just as a final thought on Jason Roy where we started this conversation, as a cricketer, he numbers wise, clearly, contribution absolutely enormous, particularly during that World Cup of 2019. He was one of the team of the tournament,

443 runs at a strike rate of over 110 you know brilliant tournament he has had these funny little streaks where sometimes his form has dipped quite dramatically do you think we appreciated what he's done and how good a player he's been no because actually he was such a key part of england winning the t the 2019 world cup i think it was of the three games that england lost two of them when jason roy was out of the side with that injury he had and he wasn't really fit in the final. And I think, you know, the achievement of England winning that Men's World Cup in 2019 will only sort of, it'll grow really as time goes on.

If you think it's still really the 50 over World Cup that is the World Cup in men's cricket, yes, England have won the T20 World Cup twice, but the 50 of World Cup is still the Premier Limited overs competition. And those 11 men who were on the field or the 15 men who were in the. squad. They should be up there with the other great sporting achievements in British sporting history and Jason Roy was a massive part of that

part of the very last action of that tournament. If you remember earlier on in that super over, he'd fumbled the ball on the other boundary at Lords. I think they allowed New Zealand to get back for a couple. Must have been in his mind when the ball went out to him from Guptill, the very last player, the tournament. If he

fumbled that, England don't win the World Cup, picked it up cleanly, got a pinpoint return to Josh Butler and the rest of was history. Now I don't think actually what Jason Roy achieved for England will truly be appreciated because I think so much so many other people have done so many great things in English cricket over the past few years but

winning that 2019 World Cup is right up there and he was a massive part of it. Yeah, incredible and I think for me it's actually about a generational change that now English cricket is known for and to be part of setting the tone and not just within the team you're at

the forefront, came out, took it to oppositions. For me, he's mostly a player that many would have looked up to to model their career on. He was just fearless in the way he took it on. So I don't want to talk too much as if he's he's done and dusted yet. I think he's got a lot more to give the game in so many ways. But what he's achieved on the field, I think is pretty spectacular. And he's part of a generational shift that we're still benefiting from now, this Jottes Spotler era, the players that are currently in this England side now trying to put their name in the hat, the wheel, Jacks and players like that who would have learnt from Jamie Smith around Jason Roy.

I think he's set a tone that will change generationally English cricket. And I think also sometimes those lean runs of form, credit to him for being bold enough to play his way to try and hit his way out of it to set that blueprint. He had to start to highlight his contribution not just to that World Cup but to that World Cup cycle of the four years building up to it. Well, in the World Cup, when he came back from injury, England basically needed to win every single game. In the last two group matches against Indra and New Zealand, he made 66 and 60, and then 85 in the semi-final against Australia. In the period between the 2015 and 2019 World Cups,

England's openers, which were Roy pretty much throughout, he was dropped briefly in 2017 after a bad run and forming the Champions Trophy, Alex Hales and then Johnny Birstow. Their opener's average just under 44, at a strike rate of 104. In the previous World Cup cycle, England's openers at average 38 at a strike rate of 83. It was a huge jump up and compared with other teams, and we'd seen one day international cricket broadly get more attacking. But the next fastest scoring rate from a team's openers in that 15 to 19 cycle was New Zealand's at 94 per 100 balls, England's 104.

So England committed to that strategy of attacking hard. We talked to you about the strength they're batting down the order that sort of almost facilitated that approach. Roy was crucial to that. said it could lead to inconsistencies because you're sort of batting to the team plan rather than guarding your own form. So, yeah, you had a huge influence on that team in that World Cup cycle. And you root and Morgan scored more runs for England.

Roy, average 40 and scored it well over a run a ball during that time. Ebb's as a guy, as a teammate, colleague, somebody that you met very early days of playing Surrey. What does he like? He's very fun for me. He's, I would also say that this is a little bit wider field, but I met him in an era where women's cricket wasn't that, that, well, well supported, as well supported. And he was a super fan from day one, like, you know, we'd be on the academy two or three times a week. He was always over, talking game, how's it going, you know, really supported.

So I think from a personal perspective, I have a lot of love for Jason Roy. I think he's a fabulous person. And also, I think I learned, I just learned about cricket in terms of that fearlessness. I think, you know, when I listen to and you look at his results and sometimes you'll get 100 and no scores and 100, to have that bravery to back, I would say it's almost like an asymmetric wrist. You know that if you go hard at swinging ball early on, the vision is to dominate, but you also know there's a big chance of getting out. But to have the mindset to say, I'm going to back this style of cricket. I used to just watch him and just always be in awe of that. I'm going to stick to this.

I'm going to take it on. And he was like that from young, you know, a teenager all the way through to today. And that, I think, especially, I think this is what Brendan McCullough and this, this, Brandon McCullum and this Basball era are moving towards that sort of, that mindset is, it's quite rare in sport. Because usually what happens is you sneak off and then someone goes in their hole and then, you know, you can kind of wallow and then start to completely overhaul your game versus I'm going to back my style and take it on. And so that's what I mean by saying he's been part of generational change. And I think as a person, he's just fun, quite light. He's got that forward-thinking kind of mindset. And he's brilliant to be around.

And so, yeah, I think he'll bring a lot. He's a player that you will miss in a changing room because he does bring that light energy. You need those on World Cup, actually. The longer trips, you need players who bring that energy enlighteners. So, yeah, a brilliant character. and, you know, no doubt he'll bring plenty more to the game. Yeah, well, we'll wait and see if he's going to play for England. Again, career that so far, it's worth pointing out, so far,

he's certainly not announced any international retirements yet. He played those five tests in 2019, 160 in ODIs, 6040, 20 international. So big contributor to English cricket over the last few years. Ebony, thank you very much indeed you. The CMS podcast. Oh, smash that. Follow the games live on the BBC Sport. website and app where you can watch highlights during the match.

That was Stefan Schemelt, Andy Zaltzman and Ebony-Rainford-Brent. Our coverage of the 50-over men's World Cup starts with England against New Zealand in Arminabad on October 5th. And don't forget, look out throughout the tournament for a daily podcast from the World Cup on BBC Sounds. Rugby World Cup. You might be familiar with other top 10 podcasts on BBC Sounds, but now it's rugby union's turn right before the World Cup starts in France.

In each episode, we'll rank our 10. to one on a whole load of topics talking about the good, the great, the controversial and the iconic of the Rugby World Cup. Two World Cup winners have been there, done it and won it will be Judge and Jury. South Africa's Brian Havana and England's Matt

Dawson. The Rugby World Cup Top Tens. With Chris Jones, Brian Habana and Matt Dawson. Listen on BBC Sounds.