Test Match Special - Building a combined Ashes XI

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

One month until the Ashes begins down under. Mark Chapman is joined by Michael Vaughan, Phil Tufnell and Glenn McGrath share their combined Ashes XI. Smith or Root? Duckett or Khawaja? Brook or Head? Wood or Starc? the panel discuss some tricky choices.

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I'm Chip Klanixel, host of Resilient Edge, a business vitality podcast paid and presented by Deloitte. Learn how the right data strategy can turn the data your company has into real ROI. Available now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 4. Hello, welcome to the TMS pod, a month to go until the men's ashes gets underway in Perth, ball-by-ball commentary of all five tests on BBC Sounds and Sports Extra, highlights on the BBC Sport website and app as well. All of our guests this evening, part of our team out in Australia, Phil Tufnell,

Mush, Michael Vaughn and Glenn McGrath. I mean, seriously, how long have we been doing this? show together Phil and you still your camera at the moment is just pointing at your stomach I'm sorry something's never changed Phil I see you've got your jogging suit on again

I have indeed I've got my little onesie thing on I've been relaxing to dark this evening yeah no no not far away now mate is it can't wait excited it's already started hasn't it all the banter and all the sort of rivalry and what have you so yeah I'm going to be going down under and I cannot wait.

I think it's going to be an absolute belter. I feel you're looking in good Nick. Am I? Yeah. Oh good. I can't see you. Where are you not? I can't see you.

You just don't worry about seeing us. Just keep your camera there so I can see you. That's all we need. So Phil and Michael and Glenn, all part of our team out in Australia. Evening Glenn, how are you? Yeah, going well. It's morning over here, but it's good to see it. Mark and Vaughney Tuff is always good to see you guys

Yeah nice to see you man You getting excited Yeah yeah looking forward to it It'll be a bit of fun There's a few one days and a few T20s against India to get through But we're still, what are we A month away so yeah getting closer

Do you think how people are viewing This series Michael has changed I'll come on to what the show's going to be in a minute But we'll just preview the series a little bit Do you think it has changed because of the Pat Cummings news? Yeah, I think so. I mean, every Ashes series that takes place, it seems to get bigger. I remember playing in a couple of 20-odd years ago, and I thought that was big.

But this one, in the build-up and the, as Phil already mentioned, the banter started, any kind of quote from any ex-player seems to travel a lot further. But the news a couple of weeks ago that Pat Cummins, I mean, I don't know, Glenn will tell us more whether he's completely ruled out of that first test. But from what I saw from the quote, it looks like he'll miss Perth and that George Bailey, the chairman of selectors for Australia, suggested that he may play a part. But Glenn, what is the news from Sydney as we speak about Pat Cummins?

Yeah, no, I think you're probably right there, Vaughney. It's not looking good for Comeo, but then this is the lead-up to the ashes. Sometimes you're not sure what's coming out of the camps and how spot on it is. Mitchell Stark did an interview the other day he said oh no he'll be fine but I think I think Camo is

I heard he is a bit ginger at a couple of training sessions hasn't bowled so whether you know that injury that hot spot whether it's more of a stress fracture that's a big concern

because he's a massive part of the Australian line-up I mean Paige can I just surely Australia wouldn't you know say that Pat's not going to play the first test and suddenly he rocks up in Perth would they? No, I wouldn't take a leaf out of your book. But I think he is struggling a little bit by all reports I've got.

So, yeah, that's a big blow for the Aussies. Which means as well, Glenn, he would then have to be managed through a five-match series, wouldn't he? Yeah, exactly right. And if it is stress fractures, he has had it in the past when he was younger. But he's been bowling without too much injury for him. quite some time. But his action just lends to it. He just loads his back up to create that extra pace sometimes. And when his strength just wanes a little bit, that's when there's issues. So fingers crossed for him, he won't be out for the whole series. I think, you know, it'd be

not the same without Pat Cummins for the five tests. And it also, I mean, it also fell, before we get on to what this show is going to be, just a final one. It also alters the leadership of Australia? Well, no, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, he's such a sort of like a talismanic figure, isn't he, Pat Cummins? You know what I mean? And yeah, I'll be disappointed if he can't play a big role, you know, when you go over there, you don't want injuries to get in the way. You want to get the best boys playing at their peak, you know, and I think, you know, I think that the England side might be good keeping an eye on it, to sort of going, well, okay, that sort of done us all right, but no one wishes anyone, you know, injuries

and you want to play the best boys and sort of like have a good deal. Phil, we didn't mind Glenn missing out 20 years ago. Should I take that back? We were celebrating at 934 at Edgbath and let me tell you. Did they ever find the bloke who rolled that?

It was you. I thought, Bonnie, you did it. Everyone's taking credit for doing it. What are you saying about 05? It wasn't as good a victory. is what it could have been. Is that what you're saying for me? Well, not really. Right, let's get on to what this show is going to be then,

which is Michael Glenn and Phil, discussing and debating their combined Ashes 11 ahead of this series, out of the players in both squads. And just to spice it up slightly, each selection is an either or. Chapas, is this for the first test in Perth? Oh my God, don't throw. Well, it's for Australian conditions, isn't it? Surely? Yes, it is.

But for the purposes of this exercise, there will be a spinner that you have to select. You can't go in with an all-paced attack, for example. But we're talking about a series in Australia, not a series here in the UK. Yes. Yeah, we are. We are.

Oh, that's changed a few things all right. I see you have a pencil. Why have you got a pen? I mean, take this. in the nicest, in the way it's meant, Phil. When they told me that this was going to be the show, I'm thinking, oh, this is, this is going to be really good. I'm looking forward to the debate

here. But then, and obviously I always want to have you as one of my guests. But when you're then mentioned, knowing how difficult you find it to put an 11 together, it always slightly concerns me. It will be all right. Listen, I might try and slip 12 in front.

So, so it is an either all. So, for example, when we come to number four, you are picking between Root or Smith. You can't have a middle order that has both, just to mix it up a bit. So hopefully by the end of it, you will have agreed on an 11. You as well can have your say.

This is on the BBC Sport website or app as well to vote for your combined Asher's 11. Can I just tell you? I did one of these last year in Australia after they lost the first test against Perth and it was an either-or. And it was just after England had run a test in New Zealand. And Jacob Bethel had played nicely.

And I put Jacob Bethel I basically put England's top seven ahead of all the odds and got lambasted. So we have to clarify that this is for the first test you must have a spinner. You must have a spinner.

And it's for now, it's today's form. Yes? Yeah, yeah. Have you had no briefing call about the show? Not really, but I'm just trying to make sure and we clarify it's a today's form for the first test in Australia. Yeah, okay.

And so, for example, at the moment with how England have played, when we get to number three it's Olly Pope. Okay? Yeah. Right, okay. I still think the majority of your top seven still may be English just to widen, just to widen the odds is up again as we go into this. So, we start

at the top of the order. So we start with either Zach Crawley or Sam Constance. So do you see how this is working? Yeah, yeah, but I wouldn't go with either of those two. I'd go Mitchell Marsh. Right, but he's not on this at the moment. So you can't do that. Okay. Oh my God. I never did, I think, I'd long for Sutton to come back and just do another hour at the Monday night club.

Oh, he was grumpy tonight, wasn't it? He was very, very grumpy. So, Crawley or Consters, first of all? You go first, Michael. If it's between Crawley and Consters, I'm going Zach Crawley, but I'd play Mitchell Marsh head both of them. Right. Why would you go...

Why would you go Crawley, even though you wouldn't go Crawley? But you see what I mean? Well, Zach Crawley average is 30 and he's an impact player. He's got five test match hundreds and England have stayed loyal with him for this moment in Australia. Last time we're in Australia he played a good innings in Sydney

he should suit the bounce in Australia he does play the likes of Cummings and Stark and Hazelwood nicely. He got a magnificent 100 at Old Trafford in the last Ashes series and Sam Constance is just a young kid who's starting out he played an incredible innings

against Jasbitt Brumannes last year at the MCG but since then he hasn't done a great deal so I'm going to go with Zach Crawley I reckon that what they're thinking about Zach Crawley is like they've got five test matches if he can just play as two or three match winning innings is you know what I mean

I think that that's what he's there for I don't think you know all through his career they've just been thinking you know we don't want him to average 30 we want him it doesn't matter if he gets out early on I just want those two or three knocks that are going to really impact the game so yeah I'm going Crawley as well

yeah i think you're right phil he's uh and he has impacted test matches you know he does get england off to the odd fly so i guess the frustration for us as ex players and a lot of england support is that he doesn't go on he just give his wicket away too easily too often but um england have stuck with him for what pretty much four years now for this moment in australia i mean he has a bit a fear factor he has a bit a fear factor about him doesn't he know you you you want to get him early otherwise you think oh crikey something's going to something could be around the corner. And that would be my question to you, I suppose, Glenn. And Duckett will come into this as well

when we come on to the other opener, I suppose. But would Australia be more fearful of someone who could knock them out of their stride with three innings in five tests as opposed to a consistent performance in six innings out of five tests? Yeah, you're probably right there. You know, I think you look at our bowling attack in, you know, if Pat Cummins does play, you've got Josh Hosewood, Mitchell Stark,

Scotty Bowling will probably come in and bowls really well in Australian conditions. If you've got batsmen that are just looking to survive and wait for bad balls, they're not going to come. So you need to put it back on the Australian bowlers. So someone like a Zach Crawley, a Ben Duckett, is probably the way to go. My biggest issue with what they call basball is in a Australian bowler. you're playing on bigger grounds. So whether they can adapt to that, you know,

Vaughney said before, Zach Crawley sometimes stroke gives his wickets way cheaply. But I thought that was the basball way. So no accountability, no responsibility. Just go out there and play. But it's going to be interesting. You know, you talk at the, you know, Zach Crowley, Sam's just a young bloke coming through.

I actually went for Zach Crawley as opening. quite like the way he goes about it, his attitude. So, yeah, so I'm not feeling very proud of myself at the moment. Glenn, can I ask you a question? Your ball in the first ball at Perth to Zach Crawley, are you putting cover point on the boundary? Oh, no, I'm happy for him to play that shot first ball. Because the last time at Edgebaston, he was on the boundary.

And actually, India, in the last test at the Oval, they positioned a deep extra cover fill in the second in his, didn't he? Didn't they? And he hit three or four lovely shots to that fielder on the boundary. He didn't get the boundaries that he'd done in the first innings and it seemed to frustrate him. So I'm looking at the Aussie tactics of will they go, you know, the old Aussie way,

or we'll have four slips in a gully and you'll have to hit it past. Glenn rightfully mentions the grounds in Australia and the outfields sometimes aren't as quick as we get here in the UK or will they go, no, this is the way we play, this is what we did in 2020, and we'll have that cover point on that boundary for that big drives to stop him getting the early fours.

Can I just ask you one on Consas, which, as Michael has alluded to Glenn or has mentioned, the innings that he played at the MGG against India. Michael Hussey has said this weekend, because he struggled for forming the Sheffield Shield, as Constance, Hussey has said, if I'm being honest, a feel for him, given the opportunity against India, played that amazing innings at the MCG, and it had us all gobsmacked. But we all knew that was not a sustainable way to be successful in test match cricket. He's got enormous talent, but he's still so young,

he's still trying to figure out what his best game looks like. Yeah, so, Mr Cricket, it's probably on the money there. I thought the way he came in and played that innings against Boomer really changed that match and turned it around, and Australia went on to win that in a pretty amazing game. You know, 370,000 people at the Boxing Day test match shows Test Crickets alive and well, which is brilliant. But the thing, the trick I think the selectors missed was they then, the Australian team toured Sri Lanka and he didn't play.

I thought they had to continue playing him, keep his confidence up, give him, you know, show a bit of faith in him. And I think since then, you know, his scores haven't been that good. And he hasn't started the season off that well here. So, yeah, unfortunately for Sam, he's not in the best of form, but he's only a young follower. and, you know, they have different confidence these days. They go out there, they back themselves, and, yeah, we'll see with the future holds. But also, is there a lot of pressure and attention on him because there's a, I was going to say desperation, but I'm not trying to wind you up, but because there's a, no, no, no, no, no.

Go on, chappas, use that word. Okay, because there's a real urge and need and want for Australia to find someone in their top order under 30. Well, you're probably right there. There's, you know, Uzzis, Uzman Guadja. You know, Uzzis now 38, B 39 in December. So he's not a spring chicken anymore. And that top order for Australia has sort of probably struggled a little bit for a while now.

So, yeah, they're looking for someone who's set, someone who's younger. I like Forney's comment on Mitch Marsh. He's hitting the ball well. He's a power player. And it looks like they're going to go with Uzman. So you need someone. someone at the other end who's going to score and score quickly.

So, yeah, it's an issue for the Australians at the moment, and I'm keen to see who they're going to go with in the first test. I have to say, Sam Consist, from the time that he came in against India, the pitches last summer in Australia, they did all sorts. It wasn't easy for batting. And then, as Glenn said, he didn't get that position in Sri Lanka, which he should have done. And then he played in the West Indies,

and some of the pitches over there were horrendous. You know, so he's at a start in test match cricket, facing Bummer, who was in fine form, on pitches that have offered a great deal to the ball. And then he goes to the Caribbean. And I'm watching a lot of state cricket in Australia over the last two or three weeks. And the ball seems to be doing a great deal more

than I remember when I used to be, you know, 20-21 watching all the state teams and there'd be 550, play 550. Scores of 250, 300 now are becoming the norm. And I think that may be the case in the test series as well. Where are you watching Australian state? I have a. I can't tell you.

I think it's illegal. He's got a live feed. I don't know, but I do watch. All in the interest of research. Correct. Yeah, okay. So when you go for the other opener then here, Michael, you could go first. Are you going Duckett?

Oh, yes. Or, I mean, do you want me to throw a Kowajas stat in? Go on then. Top score of 47 in his last 10 innings? No, I'm going to Ben Duckett. I think at this day, Ben Duck, we said in the summer, you know, across the three formats, you could put a very strong case for pound for pound in being up there with the best players in the world. There's not many play all three formats, and he's up there opening the bat and doing great in T20 cricket, 50 over cricket, test match cricket.

He looked like he needed a rest towards him. Yeah, and he's had that rest and he's been away on holiday because I follow him on Instagram and he's been on a nice beach, drinking a few cocktails, so he's ready to go for Australia. Legally following him on Instagram. I think so. I think so. Usman Quarge has been a tremendous player but over the course of the last couple of years he's just starting to lose that little bit.

He may get it back. He might just have this one last dance against England but I think it's quite an easy one for me. Ben Duky gets the nod. Okay, and for you, Tuffers? Yeah, Little Ducky. One of the most exciting opening batters I've seen for a long time. I watched him quite a lot now

sort of on his way through to get to this position of opening the batting with England and he just looks Phil and what we like about when there's a bit of argy pargy and there will be he's always there looking up

looking up to the big quicks he's always in the little back of the punch up isn't he just with his little edge sort of going about I like it yeah gritty determined and a cracking player

I tell you I think it's going to be really crucial actually the opening and Australia have got this sort of, they don't quite know where they're going without opening. You know when you see the two boys go

out, up front, opening the batting you want to get off to that good start don't you? And I think England will be seeing that as a real weakness for Australia. Yeah, Glenn, just on the opening partnership for Australia, at the minute where does it look like Australia will go?

There's a few names being thrown up. Mitch Marsh, as you mentioned, you know, Jake Wutherall who's not, he's got plenty of shield experience. He's not a young follower at all, but he has that confidence and just maybe you need someone like that at the top of the order.

So they've thrown around a lot of names, you know, Bancroft, Renshaw, but no one's really put their hand up and grabbed it in the early shield matches. So, yeah, it's going to be interesting to see. Renshaw, they played in the first one-day match against India. And whether that's just a little sign that will give him a bit more international experience

leading into the ashes, we'll wait and see but I don't think they've really decided yet to be honest your Duckett as well aren't you Just You know just This is quite remarkable

Gozzie's been great But he is nearly 39 It still does well against the spinners But I think against the quicks He's just as you get older You just lose that sharpness So you know Duckett He's an exciting player

But he's a type of guy That just does not want to let a ball go does he? I want to see him in quicker bountier pitches in Australia, just trying to play every single ball off Hazelwood. Stark, those guys with that extra bounce, it's going to be

interesting. But yes, I went for Ben Duckett, again, very disappointed in myself. So Glenn has gone for an all-England opening pair of Crawley and Duckett, as had Michael, and as has Phil. On the BBC Sport website, 80% went for

Crawley, 20% for Constus, 81% for Duckett, 19% for Coagia. So Crawley and Duckett are there. So number three is an interesting discussion because obviously there's all the pressure on Ollie Pope and who knows really and he's had the vice captaincy taken off him so is Jacob Bethel ready to pass?

But for the purpose of this exercise, it's Ollie Pope. Equally, as far as the Aussies are concerned, Cam Green has missed the ODI series with India as a precaution. Marcus Labashane's form has started to pick up 400 in his last five games in the Sheffield Shield. So he could come back, but for the purposes of the

exercise, Glenn, it's Pope or Cameron Green. But you can expand on other Aussie options if you want, because this top three is so unsettled for you. Yeah, exactly right. And they've tried Green. They really want him in the team. They've got two all-rounders in Cameron Green and Bo Webster. And my feel is they want to play them both. The issue for Cam Green at the moment, I don't think he's 100% I'm not sure he's going to start that first test match so and if they don't

I think Manus Labasham will come in he's in fine form but out of the options we have I've gone for Cam Green over Olly Pope toughers this is a this is a harder one I think because as we've alluded to neither of these two might play

no that's right I mean we're not very good when we're picking about two players that are going to and neither might not play We're not selectors, we're just broadcasts, it's fine. I've gone just, as you say, just for Olly Pope. Cam Green for me, isn't it funny though?

We're talking about an Australia, one, two, three, that no one really knows what's going on for the first time. I mean, it's unheard of. Usually it's set in stone, the guys that are walking out. So I think that's really going to play into England's favour. Yeah, just for me, Olly Pope, still, you know, is he going to average 30? Is he going to average 35, batting at number three for England?

You know, but then I can't really see Cam Green. You know, he just feels, he doesn't feel quite like a number three that's going to be walking out for me, sort of like striking fear into it. If he has a good day, Cam Green, listen, he's devastating, you know, without a shadow of a doubt, but I've just gone for Oli Poe. I personally would have gone minus Labershane. In the form that he's in. So your top three would be Mitchell Marsh and Ben Duckett and Martin Slamish.

That's my top three. But for this show, I would just go Cameron Green, purely because of his all-round. Ollie Pope, if he has a great series, probably average 35-40. Let Phil mention, I think Cameron Green, if he has a good series, he'll average 35-40, bowl loads of overs, and he's probably the best catcher that Australia. I mean, they've had some great catchers, but he is... We're talking about batting here. This is a team, Phil.

Your players must be able to do lots of other things other than just bat. So I'm going to have Cameron Green just ahead of Olly Pope. And if he is fit and can play and can play three, what difference does that make, Glenn, for that sort of top order for the Aussies? You're talking Cam Green? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, he hasn't had a lot of cricket of late. He had that back operation. earlier this year, which I think's been a big success and hopefully he'll come back. So I've got a lot of, you know, I think he's a quality player. You know, he's six, seven, can bat long. He's an aggressive power hit of the ball and can bowl a heavy ball when he's out there as well. So he's a probably more a batting all-rounder he's described as. But in the gully, he's great hands.

You know, some of the catches he's taken. And plus the size of him, he takes up two people in the field. So I think he's a quality player. Just need to get him fit, playing and out there in the middle. So, yeah, he's the future of Australian cricket, definitely. Okay, so the website, 65% of people went for Cameron Green and 35% of all Ollie Pope. So Cameron Green is there at this stage.

I mean, in an ideal world, well, in an ideal world, this would be very different for Michael. But in an ideal world, you'd probably have Root Orsmith. But for the purposes of this, if they both bat at four, you can only have one. Phil. I'm going to go, well, I'm changing my mind here. Listen, I'm really, really, really want to go with Joe Root. I think Joe Root...

Go with your gut, Phil. Well, yeah, okay, I'm going with my gut. Well, you've been showing it us all night, so he might as well. Why did you want to change your mind? Well, no, because... Oh, I think he average is 77, doesn't he, or something, Mike? 60, Phil. Oh, 60 or something in Australia.

Listen, he's an amazing player, probably going to be with the captain's seat, which I think his record shows he even scores more runs when he's captain. But I just feel, I just got a feeling that Joe Root is going to have, you know, hasn't got that 100 in Australia. I just think he's going to have an absolute cracking series.

He's going to be so up for it, so tuned in, so focused that I can see and get him three, 300s, even 400s, there you go. Three or 400s this series. $400, $300, $300, $300, $300. Why has he found it so comparatively harder in Australia? We've watched him over a few series over there. I don't think he's done a great deal wrong other than, obviously, he's just not got the three figures.

He's had 50s, he's played nicely, I think he's got 950s in Australia. He averages 36, which is, you know, not to his standards, but... Career average is 51.2. Yeah, I think the last one, what did Stuart Broad say about the last last year's series? He basically was null and void, wasn't it? It was a COVID time, but it was tough. So let's rule that one out.

So I would be staggered. I'd be staggered with the way that he's playing if he doesn't get 100. I guess the extra bit of bounce just outside of off stunt where in the UK and Indoor, the ball doesn't bounce as much. You kind of glide it down to third, doesn't he? You get so many runs down to that region whereas in Australia with that extra little bit of bounce

that usually finds the outside edge and flies to the cordon. That's the only area that I can see that he has a slight bit of vulnerability. But with the way that he goes about his business, I can't imagine that he's not going to get a huge amount of runs. And also, as Glenn said, if they've got Cameron Greed in the gully, he takes up three players. Well, I'm Bo Webster. If Boebs are players as well.

Steve Smith has did a really interesting article with the Athletic over the summer, talking about the balance he is now finding Glenn. Yes, he will still hit balls, but he has learned how important the mental side of the game is for him now and how much it can take out of you, so how much he tries to keep in his tank, especially when the games come thick and fast, as they will do in a five-test series.

Exactly right. And, you know, Steve Smith of the past was cricket 24-7. He'd even get his wife to come down and feed the ball machine so he could hit in the middle of the night. So he was that much of a cricket, Nuffie. And, you know, I'm not sure many, many guys' wives would actually do that, but his do. So, yeah, you need that balance. You need that escape.

And, you know, Smudge seems to be in a good place at the moment. Hopefully he'll come out and find the form that we've seen in the past. I've gone for Steve Smith over Joe Root. As you said, you know, his highest score is 89. He's never really liked scored big in Australia. And what you're saying there, Vaughney, that's how you're going to get out in Australia. So it's going to be tough. You know, the last three series here in Australia,

England should have been beaten 15-0, but the rain helped them out once, and the world's flattest track in Melbourne helped them out the other time. So, you know, my money's on Steve Smith in this one. So you've got to, you'd go, Ruth, I'm assuming? I'm actually not going to go, Joe, just only because...

Oh. Well, because I'm looking at Steve Smith's average of 60 with 1,800s in Australia, and Joe Root average of 36, 9. I can't suddenly, even though, in my opinion, he's going to break Satin's record, his England's finest cricketer that we've produced in terms of batting.

But for Australia, I can't look beyond Steve Smith's average of 60 and 18 test centuries. So I hate to say it, but I'm going to go Steve Smith. Interesting. I'm liking what Vaughney's got to say here. I'm putting you up for an Australian selector and I'm just starting to hear a little bit of an Aussie accent coming through when you speak.

You did pick two England players at the top. Glenn. I think Steve Smith, the one thing I reckon that's helped me, he's found golf. He's talked about that. He's talked about that. He's found golf. So he's got something away from cricket now that he can switch off. He can go and spend four or five hours on the golf course. He practices golf probably more than he practices batting these days. And I think that's probably helped him freshen up for the test matches. Okay. So Phil stuck with Root. Glenn and Michael went with Smith. The website, I mean, there may be some English buyers here. but the website went 90% route. I can't think what Steve Smith may have done to only deserve getting 10% there.

Number five then, Brooke or Travis Head? I think that's a bit. Oh, that's tough. I think that's a bit harder that. Travis has probably been Australian's best player for the last few years across all the formats. He's changed the course, and dare I say it, the Basball way is very much the Travis Headway.

And he's been doing it for a while where he goes out there at number five and he just scores so quickly. And he's taken down some decent attacks, both home and away. This is a really tough one because I think in Harry Brook, we have a very special player. And I personally will find it very, very difficult to go and knock on either of their doors and saying, sorry, Travis, or sorry, Harry,

you're not making this side. But because I'm right on the fence, I'm going to pick my English player. Okay, thanks. I'm going to go, Harry, Brooke, purely for that really. reason that I honestly would find it so difficult because we are looking at Harry Brook. I saw him this morning against New Zealand. I know it's T20 cricket, but he is a special talent. And I know Travis is and he's more experienced, but I can't leave Harry Brooke out of

a side, so Harry's in. Glenn? Tough one. Incredibly tough one. I think I went Harry Brooke because I agree with Borny. He's such a special player, special talent. But the more I think about it, I'm nearly gifting back to Travis' head. Only because of the bigger outfields in Australia. Brooke, special player, he takes the bowler's on, but that extra distance in the field, he's going to have to navigate that

and adapt to that and we'll wait and see what happens. So you're changing from Brooke to head, are you? It's a tough one, it's a tough one, so I'm probably 51, Travis Head, 49, Harry Brook. So you're not going to Travis Head there. Phil? Yeah, as you say, two really, you know, absolute powerhouses in that middle order. I think they're both going to have great serieses.

I think Glenn's point, that is the one perceived weakness, isn't it, of Eriebrook, those sort of short balls just outside off-stump. If he wants to try taking on the hooks and the pools with the size of the grounds, well, I went for Harry Brook, as you say, once in a generation kind of player and he's only going to get better. You can make a strong point of which of the two houses. as the better series, could sway each team. Because in the last few years, and Glenn's been there watching as well,

this Cuccoboro ball's different, and the pitches do do a lot more. And the top three or four of the found it very difficult. And then Travis Head comes in, or Harry Brooke comes in. The ball's just a little bit old. It's not quite doing quite as much. And then you can start to capitalize. So it could come down to the engine rooms, and particularly the number five for both teams.

Yeah, no, you're probably right. It's going to be interesting. that the type of players they are, they take the bowlers on. I always looked at Adam Gilchrist coming in at number seven was the luxury that no other team had. If he batted for a while, he either got us back in the team or took the team away from the opposition. So those two players are that style of player.

Yeah, and it could come down to that. So that new ball is very important. And the extra bounce, and as Vaughney said, the matches this year, the pitchers have had plenty. and it's that bounce, that extra bounce that undoes undoes a lot of touring teams. Okay, so Glenn's gone

Green Smith head, so you've gone three Aussies there. Phil went Pope Brook, so you've gone the three English, and Michael's gone Green Smith and Brooke. BBC Sport website so far, 70% going for Harry Brooke.

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The next one, I'm guessing, will be very simple here. Put it this way. The vote on the BBC Sport website here is 98% for one of them and 2% for the other, which is the all-rounder, Ben Stokes or Bo Webster. I mean, and we're basing this on Ben Stokes being fully fit, the whole thing. Phil, there's no, I mean, there's no debate, is there? No, no, absolutely. Leader of the Pack, fantastic captain.

going to be crucial to England how they get on touch wooden fingers crossed he keeps fit and healthy back with the bat looks so strong England looked England's best bowler

during the summer for my money and if he gets that kind of if he gets that going again and he just keeps fit I think he's going to have a wonderful series he brings so much more to the team than just his cricketing skills

you know I mean he's an absolute warrior and a leader and yeah I think he's going to have another cricket. I think he's going to have a cracket. It's been stokes for me. Yeah, it's an easy one.

I'd like to know who the 2% are actually. But I will say, yeah, Boe Webster is a very good cricketer. And he'll offer the ability to play different styles of innings. He can get on the front foot and be aggressive. He can hang in there and kind of play an attritional role as well. His bowling's quite interesting. He doesn't boil quick, but he bowls this wobble seam. Sometimes Alex Carey will stand up to the stump.

and he catches everything. So he's a quality cricket, but it's an easy one for me, Ben Stokes. Yeah, I mean, the sort of obvious nature of the selection here, Glenn, is less about Bo Webster, but more about Ben Stokes, really. Oh, without a doubt,

you know, Stokes is just class. He's a quality player. He'll be one of the greats once he retires. So, yeah, and Bo Webster, he's only played a handful of games. He's had a great start for Australia, both with bat and ball. I think he's going to,

have a good series, Beau Webster, but when you're judging them, you know, pound for pound, you can't go past Stokesy. Okay, right. So that's very simple. Everybody going for Ben Stokes that are dominating on the BBC Sport website as app. BBC Sport website and app.

You, bearing it, you start this one because you talked about the importance of the engine room here, which is Jamie Smith or Alex Carey. So this is tough because, I mean, Jamie Smith's had a great start to his English career. he tied towards the back end of the Indian series which is a concern for me going to Australia five matches to come thick and fast

Alex Kerry has been pretty much Mr. Consistent for Australia now, a great team player oh this is tough I just think Jamie Smith has got they call it the ceiling when they start talking about a younger player the ceiling's really high and I just see such a high ceiling for Jamie Smith

and the toss of a coin and it is a toss of a coin I am going to go with the English Jamie Smith because of his high ceiling Phil? Yeah Jamie Smith for me as you say very close run thing Alex Carey as Mike said

Mr Consistency and has got better and better with the bat for my money and you know really comes in at that sort of number seven spot and sort of looks to sort of he can play all sorts of innings but he looks to get stuck in but he can sort of like you know play the expansive shots as

well but i just think that smith i've seen him play some outstanding innings and when you've got someone coming in at number seven when the boulders are getting a little bit tired i think glen just said about adam gilchrist he has the power and the shots to really change the game so i've just gone smith going to be interested to see how he keeps over there because it's not it's it's tricky keeping in ozzie um you also haven't picked an ozzie yet phil no not yet Hold on, you've just got to wait, though. You've just got to wait. Let's see what's coming down the line in the last 15 minutes.

This is a hard one, Glenn, this. Yeah, it is. And as the guys have mentioned, but I've gone for Alex Carey. You know, just reliable. You know what you're going to get. He knows the conditions so well. So, yeah, got to get a bit of balance there and get another Australian in there.

And endurance as well. I mean, Michael made the point of Jamie. Smith getting tired towards the end of the India series. And it is a tough tour, five test matches in Australia. You know, it's, I've heard that the man of English coming out to support the England team is nearly going to be more English fans in the crowd than Aussies. But it is, it is a pretty tough tour, five test matches on different grounds, quick, bouncy. You know, the Aussies, you know, we like a bit of banter and the crowd will give them a bit

of a tough time but it is just see how long he can hold in there so it's going to be interesting and if Australia get off to a good start it can be even tougher let's go on to the spinners which as things stand is showed Bashir

or Nathan Lyon is this where you pick your first Aussie film I'm afraid I mean the absolute legend of Nathan Lion wonderful spin bowler has been for years now just knows his role he's got all the tricks up his books

he knows out the bowl on every single pitch in Australia, a wonderful spinner so yeah he said it's a pretty no-brainer for me He's got all the tricks up his books He knows how I said up his sleeve All the tricks up his sleeve I mean glad again

A bit like Not necessarily a comment on show Bashir as much But more on what Nathan Lyon has done here In the same way we had the discussion with Stokes and Webster. Without a doubt, you know, he's just a quality player, he's a big part of the team, leads the team song, so he's massive in Australia, 562 test wickets now. So that in itself just speaks volume.

So he knows his game so well, he's, you know, incredibly confident. The only sort of negative thing is, you know, whereas you had someone like Shane Warren who would just attack, attack, attack the whole time, aggressive fields. he can get a little bit defensive he likes putting the guys back straight fairly early but apart from that he's up there with the best in the world

Just on that then If there is a If Cummins isn't captain And Smith is captain Will that change any demands on Lion And how attacking his captain Might want him to be It'll be interesting

But I think the way the Australian You know captains have always worked They've used their senior players really well And got good advice So Steve Smith still has a fair bit to say, even when Pat Cummins is captain. So I don't think the dynamics and the thought processes will change too much, but maybe a little bit more aggression, which I think would be a good thing. Can I just say something very, very quickly, you chap?

I think the way my England top seven that I've picked play Nathan Lyon is going to be very, very crucial to the outcome. You know, it's so wily, so experienced. But if they can look to take him down and then not give him, wickets when they've almost sort of, you know, got in the ascendancy. That's where it's going to be tricky. I mean, they've got to sort of know when to go and know when to hold.

If they can get on top of Nathan Lion, and that means those big quips can't quite just settle in and then go and have a rest. It's going to be crucial. Yeah, it's Nathan Lion. It's an easy one, really. But you could argue me, if you look at all the different facets of both teams,

batting's pretty similar in a way. You could argue that England have got a bit more power, but Australia have got players that know to play the S&S. Australian can I think the bowling in terms of the Quicks Australia have got more experience so you have to say that Australian quicks are probably just a little bit more experience obviously in Australian conditions

the glaring obvious one for me is that Nathan Lyon is world class and England don't have a world class spinner so if the pitches just offer a little bit of grab I go back to the last Ashes series in 23 where Nathan went off at Lords in that second test match but in the first test at Edgebast and in the second innings when England were dominating England gifted him a fifer and that was really where Australia won the game

in England batting in the second inning and if England think they can just play all the trick shots and dance down and whack Nathan Lyon with the bigger boundaries and he will play the in-out fields you could see that Nathan Lyon will have a really good time of it so it's really important for England that they play Nathan Lyon not just in the Basbo way they've just got to milk him just milk him keep him out there don't gift him any wickets

because if he starts to get on a roll he'll have a tremendous series before we get down to the individuals here on the seamers which again you're going to be able to debate because England and have a lot of options, I suppose, when it comes to their seamers. But is this the, as Michael has sort of build it there, Glenn? Is this the experience and the know-how of the Australian seamers against the variety, because they're bringing a whole load with them, and the pace of the England attack?

Well, it is. And you look at that whole Australian bowling attack, you've got over 1,500 tests we could say, which is absolutely massive. And that experience plays a big part. Mitchell Stark over 400 test wickets. Josh Hayswood, about to take 300. Pat Cummins, 300.

So their numbers not to, you know, to just dismiss. So the quality, the way they work together. And when you've got a unit, you know, four bowlers there, that unit bowling together, I know Pat Cummins may not be there. But that builds confidence. And, you know, even in the batting lineup, you know you've got bowlers that take 20 wickets. it does have a big impact.

Which attack would you rather captain? And this is before we get to the either oars here. But the attacks for the purposes of this exercise are Atkinson Wood and Archer for England and Cummins-Stark and Hazelwood for Australia. Which one would you rather captain? Australia. Why?

Quite easily. Because of the experience. I mean, Glenn's just listed off the amount of wickets that the quartet have got and then you've got a world-class spinner. I want a world-class spinner in my attack because you can just change up the play. You can change the pace of the game. And when you've got Cummings, you can bowl,

new ball, old ball, gets a reverse swing. You can go to the short stuff. Then you've got Stark who is such a threat with the new ball. And then with that old ball, he gets it tailing away from the right-handers, into the left-handers. And Josh Hazwood is a baller that we don't talk enough about. He is world-class.

So it's quite an easy one for me. I'd want to captain the Aussie ones. Okay, so when I do Atkinson, against Cummins, which is the first one here, is that obvious given Cummins' record? Ninety-one wickets against England in 19 matches. No one has

dismissed Joe Root more times in test matches. Gus Axons has been great, so it's slightly unfair. It's not anything on what Gus Atkinson's done because he's had a tremendous start to his test career, but he's up against one of the greats. He really is one of Wilcoop in India as a skipper.

You know, in test match cricket over the course of the last four years. Every time Australia have needed something, whether it's been a wicket, a runout, a few runs down the back end at Edgebaston in 2023. Pat Cummings is delivered as a captain as well. So it's quite an easy decision, but it doesn't take anything away from how good a cricketer Gus Atkinson is either. Is this another Aussie in your line up here, Philip? Yeah, afraid so. I totally agree with Mike. He can bat as well down the order, Gus Atkinson. and he's burst onto the scene and sort of made himself feel very much at home, hasn't he?

But, yeah, Pat Cummins for me. I think a lot of it is going to just come down to this England bowling attack. If they can just get on that sort of momentum, if they can get on that role, you know, with the pace of Archer, with wood, if they can start rustling a few feathers, you know, and it's going to be interesting

to see how they sort of chop and change because they can't all play for the five test matches. But, you know, that Australian bowling, The one thing, Phil, the one thing that concerns, I know all the ex-players are playing enough warm-up games. The one concern I have about the warm-up game

is they're going to play the lions and they're going to play it at Lilock Hill. Now, anyone that's been to Lailet Hill, the ball doesn't bound above knee height. And then a week after, they're playing a test match at the Perth Stadium. Now, India last year, when they went over to the Perth Stadium,

won, well, they had a two-day game amongst themselves, but it was at the Wacker, which was the same kind of pitch that they played in the Perth Stadium. So the one concern that I was, have is that it's not about the batterers also getting used to the bounce. It's the bowlers bowl in that length. And in the last few years in Australia,

actually hitting the top of off stump has been the most important ball. We're talking about pace. We're talking about bounce. Of course, you might need that. But over the last few years in Australia, the best bowlers have been those pitch-up bowlers that have brought the batters forward. And my concern maybe with the preparation is that the batters won't have played on pitches at bounce. And the bowlers were bowled just a little bit shorter because of the bounce.

if you don't get your lemps right in Perth and it might be the first 15 overs which are the most crucial overs to get it right if you get it wrong you could lose a test match by getting it wrong in those first 15 overs so that's the one area I'm not an old schooler

and say those should play three warm-up games that those days have gone but just think about the one warm-up game that they play concerns me that they're going to be playing on a pitch that hardly bounces Cummings for you I'm guessing Glenn yeah now again like the boys have said it's a bit of a no brain

just his experience, what he offers. If he's not playing, that's a big blow to Australia because he offers something different from Stark, from Hazel or Jesse Engels. He comes in, the ball's always angling into off-stump and then sort of straightening off the pitch or continuing on. So he's quality, he's led from the front, and his stats speak for themselves.

Stark or Wood, Glenn? I love Woody. I think he's a brilliant bowler. He gives 100% every single second he's out in the field. and I love his attitude in the way he goes about it. But, you know, Mitchell Stark, to me, when he's on song, he can just destroy teams. He can blast teams out.

That new ball swinging. He bowls such aggressive lines and lengths. Yeah, he's got that much ability and skill. He, you know, I always put Wazi Macrin as the most skillful bowl I've ever seen. And, you know, Stark is right up there beside him. And in the conditions, and if he's bowling well, he can destroy team. So I'm going Mitchell Stark. But I'm a big fan.

God, for one minute, I thought you were going to add to the cast by sticking Wazimacram into this team which would have just put the tin hat on everything that would. I wouldn't have disagreed with you, but it would have been complicated. Phil? Yeah, not going to disagree with Mr. McGraw. There, I'm afraid. You know, the variation.

We keep tooling about it, the experience and whatever. You make some nice little footmarks for Nathan Lyon as well, which is always handy for the spin bowler. Yeah, wonderful bowler. got that swing and, you know, pace. Yeah, easy. Mitchell Stark. Yeah, Mitchell Stark. I mean, Woodie's, I'm just delighted that he's on the plane.

You know, apparently he's been at Loughborough Bowling, which is great. We can get three test matches out of Mark Wood. He's the kind of bowler that can create a huge amount of impact. Again, you go back to 23 when England were 2-0 down and suddenly Wokes and Wood came into the side, particularly at heading of that spell that he bowled down the hill to Kowager. Cool. If you can get four or five of those kind of spells,

over the course of five matches I think he'll play a big part but you have to go Mitchell Stark And then finally then that leaves us off Joffra Archer and Josh Hazelwood Which has been quite Out of all of the sort of three on the website That's the one that's gone in the favour

Of the English bowler But going back to your point Is that because we don't talk about Hazelwood enough Yeah I mean Geoffrey is He's like Mark Wood We're not going to get five test matches out of Geoffrey We can get three and he can produce two or three spells

like we saw to Steve Smith in the Ashes series at Lords of course he's going to create a huge impact in favour of the English team but you can't look beyond Josh Hayeswood I mean he's absolutely world class across all the format so consistent saw him bowl just yesterday against the Indian

one day team in Perth and I thought oh no that's exactly what England going to face just a round off stump he's going to get the extra bounce the odd ball nip back the odd ball will nip away and there'll be some nice big pairs of hands weight in the outside edge. So I will be picking Josh Hazelwood. I'm guessing you've got an all-Australian attack here, Glenn.

Yeah, obviously. Hazelwood is just quality. He just goes about his business. He rarely bowls a bad ball. And no one really talks about it. So he just flies under the radar there. He's one of the best shorter game bowlers in the world. He can adapt to the conditions and just bowls so well day and day out.

Yeah, the big thing for me is going to be England, going to be Woody and Archer. If they're fit, how many games they're going to play, they're going to have to play quite a few if England are a chance. Phil? Well, I mean, I've got to agree with the guys. Interesting, Mike's just saying that the pitches, you know, it might, England had gone over there with this and they've been saying in the buildup, haven't they, for years now that we've got to get pace, pace, pace, pace, pace and all,

you know, you know, like wood and archers steaming in and that's hit them with bouncer than this. Hazelwood, he just hits that top of off-stum, keeps you honest all day long. He has the pace to sort of like worry you as well with the short ball, but he's just missed the consistency, so you can't look beyond Josh Hazelwood.

Right then. If I now try and put together what the three of you have eventually ended up with, Crawley and Duckett, right? I'm going on majority, if it's not unanimous, okay? Green, Smith, and Brooks. Stokes.

Then there was a difference of opinion on the wicketkeeper but Phil and Michael both went with Jamie Smith so Smith is in there then Lion and Cummins, Stark and Hazelwood. Unanimous on from 6 to 11

unanimous on everything bar the wicketkeeper. The website Crawley Duckett Green Root Brook, Stokes Smith Cummins, Stark, Lion and Archer. So not that much not that much different but there we are thank you

good to see you glen talk plenty i'm sure over the next two or three months yeah looking forward to it and great to see the odds he's even got up on this one sort of six to five so it's looking good for the a what's your prediction glen i haven't heard it yet no i think it's like we've done today the the australian top order is going to be interesting but the the bowling is strong england top order uh looking pretty good but uh they're bowling you know, see who's going to be on the park. So I think every game's going to come down the wire. It's going to be pretty close with Australia,

just getting over the line in every single game. So I'm coming five now. Thanks to Michael, Phil and Glenn. We've got there in the end. Make sure you subscribed on BBC Sounds. You'll never miss an episode. Why would you want to miss an episode after one like that? You can listen to every moment of The Ashes on the BBC

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