Test Match Special - Clinical England take decider to claim Pakistan series.

Episode Date: October 2, 2022

England won the 7th T20 by 67 runs to clinch the series 4 – 3. Henry Moeran reviews the action and looks ahead to the men’s T20 World Cup with former England wicketkeeper turned coach James Foster, commentator Aatif Nawaz and BBC Sport chief cricket writer Stephan Shemilt. Plus we hear from Moeen Ali, Harry Brook and Jos Buttler.

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from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello and welcome to the Test Match Special podcast at the end of an historic and memorable T20 series between Pakistan and England. Seven matches, each entertaining in their own way, eventually won by four matches to three by England. Coming into Sunday's final match at the Gaddafi Stadium in Lahore, series level,

but England dominated the final T20 to win by 67 runs. With me to discuss it all is the former England wicketkeeper and PSL coach James Foster, Atev Nawaz and the BBC's chief cricket writer, Stefan Schemelt. Right, then, let's get stuck into it. First of all, this final T20 match. England batting first, having been asked to do so by Pakistan, 209 for three.

More runs for David Milan. It's been an outstanding performance from an England side that came into this game. James, knowing that in some ways it's a little bit of a final, good practice ahead of the World Cup. Very much so. It's not very often that you get these sort of crunch matches normally it gets the World Cups

when it's really important to win these type of games but to experience this today is going to give them a lot of confidence that going into the World Cup coming up soon in conditions which in theory they'll be even more comfortable with

I thought their ability and their skill levels and adapting to the conditions in Pakistan were superb I mean it's no surprising really when a lot of the guys who have played this series for England I've played a lot in Pakistan already in the PSL so they were exceptional it was really good to see their batting today was exceptional I mean getting a hundred run partnership Milan and young Harry Brooker there I mean

don't get that too often in T20 bearing in mind that was the last partnership that England put on as well getting them to a total of 209 was a phenomenal achievement 209 for three England score Milan top scoring was 78 not out Brooke made 46 not out Bend Duckett, meanwhile, at May 30 at the end of what's been a really good tour for him. Stefan Schemmel, the end of this series hasn't provided the blockbuster finish that we wanted. What it has done, though, is it's shown from an England perspective that that batting unit, even missing the likes of Bearstove, Butler and Livingstunt, has an awful lot of depth. There's a man on our screen talking now Matthew Mott,

who I think will be really pleased with how England have gone in these seven matches. Because if you think England's White Bull Summer, Mott's first in charge, It's not gone well at all, particularly the home part of that. I know they dismantled the Netherlands in that one day series, but after that, it's been really, really up and down. And you're right to say that England have gone and won this series without Josh Butler, Johnny Birstow and Liam Livingston, who would all be in England's strongest T20 squad.

Ben Stokes isn't there either. He'll be in the World Cup squad. I know he's not played a T20 match for 18 months, I think. But Ben Stokes would make most T20 teams around the world. better. And in this decider, Mark Wood hasn't played either. He's only played two matches across the seven-match series. So there's five first-choice players who England haven't had at their disposal for most of this series, and yet they have won in Pakistan for three. You could look upon this as preparation for the World Cup, which it is,

but it's also partly part of the history of England returning to Pakistan, of mending some bridges that were broken last year when England called off that tour and conditions in Pakistan are going to be really, really different to what England will encounter in Australia. It was about winning games, I think, not necessarily just answering questions about for that tournament coming up. That's what England needed to do. At the end of the White Ball summer, we were thinking, where is this T20 team going? No Owen Morgan, new captain, new coach, not going so well. Well, they've gone to Pakistan and they've beaten a really talented side. Artif Noaz, as we see the presentation, about to begin on the outfield

at the Gaddafi Stadium in Lahore, we reflect on a series that we knew was going to be significant because of the history and the amount of time it's been since England have played in Pakistan. What we didn't expect was quite such a remarkable series. Yes, the conclusion wasn't quite as exciting as it might have been, but goodness, have we been treated to some good cricket. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is the thing about a seven-match series between two teams that are oddly evenly matched because they have two completely different strategies to see them go back and forth

was quite thrilling and there's so much time for the narrative to shift and you know it feels like a long time ago now but there was Pakistan chased down 200 and oh my goodness I mean what can this team do how far can they go how great are these two batters Mark Wood bowling that 97 mile an hour delivery that was four matches ago but there's so many

so much time for players to stand out and also demonstrate some consistency obviously there's two parts of this series There's the part that is that significance of the 17-year gap between England touring Pakistan and them coming back again, the love and affection they've been showed by the crowd. I mean, on our broadcast feed, we're constantly shown photos and images of people with signs for the England team, with England shirts, England face paint, England signs. Obviously, lots of people have travelled from England to watch the games as well,

and they've made their support, bothly and visually known for the England players, who, as James is saying, they're very much familiar with, particularly owing to the Bargis. Super League. I mean, Alex Hales, Phil Salt, they came over there. They got a lot of love. Josh Butler, he didn't play in any of these games, but he wanted to be there. He knew it was significant for him to be present there with this side, just for the optics of the situation, for an England team that, as Stefan said, is looking to mend fences and build a long-term friendship and partnership with Pakistan. So from that perspective, it was wonderful. On the pitch, I mean, the back and forth aside, the ending kind of, I think, highlighted.

some very, very problematic things for Pakistan heading into a World Cup, as promising as it is for England going to the World Cup, as worrying as it is for Pakistan as it stands. That margin of victory 67 runs, Pakistan never really got going, having lost two early wickets. They finished 142 for eight in this final T20. Rizwan and Baba Azam at the top of the order, such expectations, reliance if we're honest,

in that Pakistan lineup, but Rizwan bowled by Rhys Topley for just one. Barbara Azam caught by Brooke off the bowling of Wokes for four. Stefan, what have we learned from this series? There's a wide-reaching question, I suppose, but we've got big cricket coming up in the form of that T20 World Cup. We've learned that England have got a good crop of young players coming through, some of them who will be going to the World Cup and some who won't,

and some who are really putting pressure on that first choice 11. If you think of the excellent series that Harry Brooke has had, that Ben Duckett has had, remember, Wood playing at the start of the series, left armour with lots of pace. But I don't know if England have actually learnt loads going into the T20 World Cup because of how different it'll be and because of the personnel changes that they're going to be at the T20 World Cup. So England have just played seven matches, seven T20 matches in the run up to that World Cup. I've just jotted down some questions that I still think they've got to answer before the tournament starts.

is Josh Butler fit who opens with him what do they do with Ben Stokes where does he slot in is Liam Livingston fit how much can they get out of Mark Wood what about Chris Wokes and is Chris Jordan fit

that is a lot of questions for England to answer between now and the start of the World Cup let me chop one of those your way James and that's maybe the one we've been discussing most of all and that is who will be opening the batting alongside Joss Butler

because really we've felt it was between Hales and Salt. In terms of their contributions throughout the series, well, Phil Salt made that standout 88, not out in the sixth match, finished with 167 runs and an average of 27. Alex Hales made 130 runs from an average of 21, but played an innings less. So who, for you, is going to be opening the batting alongside Butler?

Well, I look at the whole pecking order thing in that initial selection for the World Cup side. Hales wasn't in it and Salt was in it. Obviously, Bears still then got injured and then Hales came into the Pakistan tour and obviously to the World Cup squad. So you would think, based on that, that sort would be ahead. But I don't know, my, salt is a star, absolutely no doubt about it. And he played an incredible role this last couple of innings.

But I don't know, my gut fill is that I reckon Hales might get the nod. I don't know if it's a huge part of that is because of Hales' exceptional. experience in Australia. It's been so successful there in a big bash for various sides that it's played. Yes, Phil Salt has played a lot over there as well.

But my gut feel, they might, might just go hells. The thing when you sort of list all those questions that England have still got to answer, it makes it sound like it's quite chaotic and they haven't really got their plans

because what we're so used to over the past seven years Owen Morgan's been the Whiteball captain for, particularly going into the 2019, World Cup, 50-over World Cup, which England won. Then again, last year, the 20-21 T20 World Cup, where they lost in the semi-final, we're used to really knowing pretty much exactly what England's

Best 11 is, what their plans will be, and how they're going to play. Just because we've listed all those questions, that doesn't mean that England are in bad shape or that it is chaotic, because a number of those things are actually not of their own making. They're just of a fitness and of how they're going to slot certain players in. Let's hear from the player of the series.

Harry Brookes is speaking to A Rouge Mubtat. to develop all of that kind of batting style? Plenty of practice. Plenty of times in the nets and doing drills. Yeah, but look, I look to try and hit straight first, and then if there's a gap there, I'll try and manipulate the field. Well, you've surely made a very strong case for the upcoming Australian series and the T20 World Cup.

How is healthy competition for you? Sorry, I missed that. I'm saying how's the healthy competition within the team? Because you've surely made a very strong case for yourself for the upcoming World Cup. Yeah, we'll see when we get out there. But obviously, all the lads are looking forward to getting out there and getting going against

But we've got Australia first in a three-match series and then obviously on to the World Cup. So hopefully we can push the trophy out there. You said that Pakistan seemed like your second home, came out with a blistering hundred in the PSL and you've never looked back since. How has it been here? No, it's been good fun. Obviously, we've been in the hotel quite a bit, but it'd be quite nice to get out of the hotel and get to Australia now.

But no, it's been good. Harry, it's been wonderful watching. Good luck for the future. Thank you very much. Thanks for talking to us. That's Harry Brooke, speaking to Aroo. Mumtaz, we'll get more reaction as we go through the next few minutes. Interesting mention there, Artif, of the way the players have been rather limited

in terms of that ability to go and see more of Pakistan. But what has been really clear is how much the players have enjoyed it, those at the ground have enjoyed it, England supporters that have been there have absolutely loved it. Absolutely. I think it just becomes a sort of unknown thing in the background for a lot of fans. So if you can't see it, then your imagination just sort of pictures, when you hit unsafe conditions or security concerns,

you're visualising things that are actually quite terrifying and you have no idea what's going on, but really seeing as believing. So when you see your team playing out there, hang on, that's just another cricket ground. And actually, it looks quite nice. The way it's decked out, those fans, they look like they really love it. Oh my God, that looks good.

That city looks great. So it's all about sort of normalising. Let's get over there and play cricket. The PSL's played a huge part in that. And, of course, so many teams have gone over. The high-profile visit from Australia. earlier this year as well, but England represents a lot more. It feels like, certainly to outsiders, England is a huge power in cricket. So when they make a move, the world does

notice. And an England series anywhere is a box office attraction, particularly with a group of players that they currently have as well. So that's why this tour got so much attention and why it's such a huge thing for Pakistan, because there's a lot of people who may have still had reservations, like, oh, I don't know, do we, do I want to go there? Is it safe? Well, you know, we've just sent some of the best cricket players in the world over there. They've had a great time by their own admission. They've been showed a lot of love and affection. And again, still, there's still some security precautions taken.

And that's more owing to the reputation, I feel, than to anything that's truly deserved. But whatever steps need to be taken, the PCB, the Pakistan Cricket Board, have shown that they're willing to take them to make sure that that red carpet is there for any of these teams to come over to Pakistan more frequently. And I think this has been wonderful.

And it also has to be said, the ambassadorial role, not just Moin Ali, because we talk about Moin Ali a lot, but the whole team has played, getting involved with social media, getting involved with the flood appeal, getting involved with the fans. They've done wonderfully. Let's hear from Moinale now. Yeah, brilliant game today. I thought from us, we played really well from the start. The batters obviously put on a very good score on that wicket. And I thought our bowling was outstanding again today with wet conditions. And I thought throughout the series, we've bowled really, really well. We keep talking about how England looks a very dangerous in all three aspects and you've showed that throughout the series but in particular that top four, five, Brooke, Milan, Saul, Alex Hales, Duckett, exceptional.

Yeah and it gives so much more confidence to everybody else and you know when the team is batting like that with the strike rates that they're better it's really important and you can easily lose confidence after the two games that we lost where we didn't chase but you know just credit to the boys they went out and still played the way they want to play. T20 cricket is about peaking at the right time and England seemed to be doing it perfectly. Yes it's a really good position to be and

obviously we needed two must-win games and the way we we've come back and won those two games so comfortably was was amazing to see and I think we're in a good position right now with players to come in who we know can make a difference but it just shows the depth that we have in our squad as well. It's been wonderful watching you guys play as a team has been wonderful for the crowd to cheering behind you and congratulations. Thank you very much. much. I just want to say thank you to everybody, all the crowd and the PCB for looking after us as I've really enjoyed our time here.

Fantastic. And good luck for the Australian series and the World Cup. Right, there we go. The words of Mowin Ali, talking to Arouj, Moum-Taz. The Gaddafi Stadium touched upon it at the end, James. Moin Ali, thanking the PCB for the experience of the England side over the last couple of weeks. You know Pakistan cricket. You've been there in a coaching capacity in the PSL. This is a significant series. having England playing international cricket in Pakistan again. Yeah, significant in so many ways. I think it's great to see that the standard of the cricket has been so high

of two quality, quality sides. And interestingly, you often find the standard of the cricket could be one thing, but then the camaraderie between the two teams has been great to see as well, some high-quality sportsmanship amongst both sides. that looks like they've both been having a lot of fun but I think that again it's led from a lot of these guys are played with and against each other for quite a few years

in the PSL so he spent a lot of time bear in mind as the boys just mentioned there spending a lot of time in the hotel so you end up growing you spend a lot of time of them breakfast lunch dinner you know unfortunately you're not allowed to go out anywhere because of the security

whilst the players are dying to go out you're just not allowed you know it's the rules but it's great to see. And I thought the spirit, yeah, as a touch on the spirit between the two teams has been high quality. Stefan, there's big cricket to come later in the year in Pakistan, that test series with England visiting once again. Is this a watershed moment where now we can look ahead, of course, we don't know the future, but it feels now that this has happened now,

it's been a huge success, and now we can look forward to more cricket being played in Pakistan internationally. I think what was really interesting over the course of this series, and a sign of how bridges have been built between the ECB and the Pakistan Cricket Board was that offer that the ECB made for England to stage a neutral test series between India and Pakistan in England, because as we know, India and Pakistan haven't been playing test cricket against each other for political reasons. They only come off against each other in white ball tournaments. But one of the reasons why the PCB weren't too keen to take up that offer, was because they've only just got test cricket back into Pakistan.

They've been playing a neutral venues, mainly in the UAE, but they have played some neutral games here in the UK. They've been playing those for so long. And now to have test cricket back in Pakistan, like that wonderful series we saw them when they hosted Australia earlier on this year, they don't want to give it up again. And like Artif says, when countries like Australia and England make those steps

into a certain country it feels like the rest will follow and just because if you put aside for a moment the historical meaning of that test series later on in the year but because of the test cricket that England have been playing over the past number of months what a series that's going to be really will be our teeth yeah I mean it will be very exciting to see how England get on over there and I mean I'm just so excited about the prospect of watching someone like a Jimmy Anderson, go back. There was, of course, one of the last English players to participate in an England-Bargistan series in Pakistan. But it'll be so, hey, it's incredible that he's lasted this long that he's going to be able to feature in that. But it is really, really exciting

because it'll be a different kind of challenge for England. Like, we're familiar with England's overseas challenges. We know what it's like when you're going to Australia. You know what it's like when you're going to New Zealand, to India, to South Africa, and West Indies, you know what that challenge is. But you vaguely remember what the challenges of playing a test series away to Pakistan. It's a different narrative. We talk about growing the game beyond the 10 tests playing or the 12 test playing nations in the

world now. It's also about exploring all the environments and putting forth the narrative of all the games and the different venues. So that is very, very exciting. I think just for fans, it'll be a great experience. I really hope that Barmi army go. I really hope loads of

fans go with all the flags. I hope they play the trumpets and the music and they take that English cricket atmosphere with them because that is the cricket that is admired around the world that is the cricket that's watched around the world the dynamics the three dimensions of it it's something that I mean I can't wait to see it happen in Raoul Pindi Muldan and then Garachi this winter

before we move on and we'll hear from Josh Butler in a minute I'm going to ask a difficult question regarding England's prospects in the T20 World Cup I'm going to start as you James because you're closest to me as simple as that and that is are you more confident about England's chances having seen this series than you were at the start of it?

No. The reason I say that is because England have a lot of match winners in their side. So I feel that they've always in with the chance. I know they had a tough summer but irrespective of how they went here, as we all know in T20

cricket it's all about on the day. Yes, you want momentum, you want confidence, you want that belief but it's about doing the job on the day and England have so many match winners in particular in their batting line up and the fact they bat so deep gives them a huge advantage and a huge opportunity to win this to win this world cup step more than most competitions the t20

world cup can be a bit of a lottery and the reason i say that is i think there've been seven different editions up to now and six different winners only the west indies have won it twice we know that t20 cricket more than other any other format has got some very talented data analysts and statisticians and guys like that who can tell teams how to plan and can talk about their matchups and all those sorts of things that sometimes the unpredictable element can be taken out of it. However, if you look at the way that some of the T20 World Cups have been won, who'd have thought Australia would have won a year ago? In 2016, England had a hand on the trophy until Carlos Brathaway hit four-six is off that Ben Stokes over. Even when England won it in

2010, they only just about got a team together on the eve of the tournament, then went and won it. The question of whether or not do we think they are any more likely to win this tournament because of what has happened over the past seven matches, and with James, I always thought they had a good chance of winning it before this seven match series began, because I think England have got a really good chance of reaching the semi-finals. Once you get to the semi-finals, well, who knows? I feel like I've got to be the contrarian here and go the other way, I think just that while I agree that England have always been a fantastic team and a lot of these players have been known, that experience of playing against some world-class batters in

particular for Pakistan and from their bowlers, you take a lot of confidence. Now, if you look at someone like Mark Wood, who's managed to dismiss Barbarazim twice in two attempts, like you can't not be a better bowler or a more focused bowler or a more confident bowler after doing that. Take a look at the delivery that at Reese Topley bowled to Mohamed Rizwan today. I mean, that's the That's the kind of delivery. You make your screensaver or buy the NFT of whatever it is people do with the funky clips these days. I mean, I really think they've gone to Pakistan,

they've gone to their backyard and taken a series win. It fills you with confidence. I completely agree that T20 is a variable format. There's so many different sort of factors that make up your success on the day. That's absolutely a thing, but also confidence and build up as a thing. And England are going to Australia now with a lot of both of those. Artif, Steph, James. Thank you very much indeed.

I think at the end of that, we're all in agreement that England are in with a decent shout with the 220 World Cup, with which you will be able to hit every single ball with five sports extra out across the BBC. Let's listen to the thoughts of England's white ball captain then Joss Butler. He's been in Pakistan with the squad,

but not actually playing as he recovers from calf injuries. He's been speaking on the latest edition of the Sports Day podcast with Sarah Mulcarens. So I suppose the first big question, Jocelyn, where are you with your fitness? You know, is there a timeline on when we will see you playing again ahead of obviously the World Cup in Australia? Yeah, my fitness is coming along really well, getting lots of confidence back in the body. So, yeah, if it was the World Cup tomorrow, I'd be fit to play.

But just being a bit cautious with making sure that there's no last-minute hiccups this close to the tournament. You desperately want to get out there and play, and especially as captain, get out there and lead your team. Yeah, certainly by the time we arrive in Australia, I'll be fit to play the matches. We play three games there and one warm-up game as well in the World Cup. So there's still four matches in Australia before the first game. What have you made of the team's performances in Pakistan? Yeah, I think on the whole, we've played really well. I've been really impressed.

We've had a number of guys coming back from injuries as well. It's good to see back out there, Mark Wood and Chris Wokes, you know, getting back on the field in an England shirt is great to see for England fans and for us as a team as well. I think this guy's scoring runs and in a fashion that was great to watch. Ben Duckett and Harry Brooks' partnership in Karachi especially was fantastic. And Moina, obviously, standing Skipper in your place. What have you made of how he has dealt with at all? It's been brilliant.

Mo is such a great team man. He's one of the most popular members of the group. He's just a very honest guy. He's obviously leads from the front with the way he plays. He's just been himself. He's captained a lot for Worcester and in the 100 as well. So the cricket side of that is very much on top of. And it's been fantastic.

He's just been able to sort of slip seamlessly into doing it. From your perspective, you know, I know you're not playing, but in a way does it help kind of standing back a little bit from the team, getting more time with obviously the new coach Matthew Mott. Just in terms of ahead of that world, Cup, what you're all learning and what you can take to that? Yeah, it's quite a unique situation, being captained here and not playing. So, yeah, very much just trying to learn as much as I can, sort of take it all in and sort

of listen and watch around the team and sort of, yeah, see what's going on. And, yeah, certainly obviously can sit with the coach and watch the game unfold and we can discuss things and build those relationships, which are really important. And how has it been playing in Pakistan? Obviously, you know, a big journey to get back there. And I suppose, you know, as well, the test team are going to be coming out. And, you know, what information will you be passing on to Ben Stokes? Yeah, we've been really warmly welcome back here in Pakistan.

It's my first trip to Pakistan ever. So we know what a big moment it is for the England team to be back here playing cricket. You know, the local fans have been filling the stadiums to watch the games. created a great atmosphere and yeah we've been so well looked after so I'm sure when the test team comes back in December they're going to have a great time as well I wanted to ask you a few questions on the debate here about you know the restructuring of cricket and county cricket and trying to make the England's men's teams the number one in in all three formats of the game we've had this Strauss high performance review and I just wonder from your point of view

do you see how there would be a correlation between reducing the number of county championship in T20 matches at county level to help the England team improve? Yeah, I do. And I think it's really important that everyone can understand what is the main sort of reason of county cricket. I know there's lots of different stakeholders that involved. It's not a simple, straightforward process at all. But no, I do feel a reduction in games.

would allow players to prepare properly, allow players to recover properly, put a lot more emphasis on those games that, you know, there is maybe, would it be four fewer championship fixtures? You know, the pressure on those games would become a lot higher, and I think the standard of those games can potentially be higher for that. So I can see how that would see more high performance in that sense. It's not straightforward. Like I say, there's some players who may only play one format of the game, and they might want to play as many games as possible. in that format. So I can see how it's not straightforward, but if you were just looking at sort of high performance view on it, I think 10 games would be a good number of fixtures.

Do you miss playing county cricket? And I suppose if you were in this new structure, you know, would that allow you to getting back to playing first class cricket for Lancashire and potentially then, you know, with a route back into the test team for England? Yeah, I think the landscape of cricket's changed quite a lot. lot over the last sort of 10 years, really the span of my whole career. The advent of the IPL has become so strong. And the timing of that for us in England, it clashes with a lot of our season. So quite unique in that sense of opportunity.

But yeah, I don't know if the restructuring would allow more of that. There's a lot of cricket played around the world. And there's a lot of days you can be playing cricket, certainly if you played everything. But again, it's like I said, that high performance thing of being able to prepare properly is one of the biggest things that I found as a challenge in county cricket when I was playing lots of county cricket is making sure you had enough days to prepare and go into games feeling like you were completely ready, which in my head makes quite a lot of sense to aid performance if you can practice properly. So that's one area where I felt like the reduction in the games may be able to help that. It's interesting. You mentioned the high performance and a lot of people are saying this helps in this regard. But, you know, county cricket might be a wider thing and what the priorities should be for the counties for the ECB.

And I suppose how you get that balance right. Yeah, I think that's the biggest challenge with it all is what I don't think anyone probably has exactly. the same goal across the ECB and all of the counties. And that's fine if that's the case. But, you know, if it is all about the England team and making the, giving the best chance of that, then maybe there needs to be some, I think there probably has to be compromises from both sides

from what I can take from just reading a few bits. And of course, for the counties and then county fans, they're desperate to have as much cricket available. at their ground throughout the summer for their members and their players so it's certainly not straightforward and I think that's the way that everyone's properly

conclusion is from this whole thing. Yeah, do you have sympathy for those fans, you know, the members, you know, at the counties who are looking potentially a reduced amount of matches every season? Yeah, I can understand if that's the, you know, going to the county ground to watch

cricket in their summer is a huge part of their life. So absolutely they probably don't want to lose any number of days that they do that but to get like maybe if they were seeing a better game or better quality, maybe that might be a good

sort of playoff as well. We've spoken to the ECB chairman Richard Thompson who kind of talks about this possible Kerry Packer moment. You know, with England players rejecting central contracts in favour of playing over sees T20 franchise cricket unless the domestic game is made more appealing. Do you share that

fear? And, you know, could you ever see yourself leaving England behind and heading off to play even more franchise T20 cricket? I'm not sure. It's not something I've thought about at the moment. Absolutely the game is changing and the advent of many franchise leagues around the world. They're becoming very, you know, there's a lot of good money on offer is in there and lots of these leagues for certain players. So they're very attractive in that sense. And certainly the way the franchises are sort of certain teams are very involved with different teams in different competitions as well.

Sort of being a bit of like sort of Man City model. You have a lot of different teams around the world. So maybe that may come into cricket and I don't know when, whether it's three, five, seven, ten years, something, at some stage. But you certainly can't underestimate the power of T20 cricket, and especially the IPL, I think, you know, the TV rights for the IPL a second only to the NFL. So it just shows the sort of power that that kind of tournament has.

But, yeah, it'll be an interesting time for cricket over the next few years for sure. I know one of the proposals from Andrew Strauss's, moving the 50 over one day cup to the month of April. When we know the weather is unpredictable at best, I know Moin Ali has expressed fears for the 50 over game. We know the test captain. Obviously, Ben Stokes, he's stepped away from that format. Do you think one day cricket's days are numbered?

I hope not, because I really enjoy that format of the game. And my proudest moment in an England shirt has come in that format of the game. So I certainly hope not. I think the big challenge for international cricket and maybe all cricket is to find the right balance between all the formats and making sure that bilateral tournaments, especially the best players are available and competing

and it feels relevant. I think any time you play in a World Cup is going to feel relevant and people have the carrot of winning a World Cup at the end of a tough tournament, you know, it's obviously feels very, you know, it's going to feel amazing if you managed to achieve that. But just making sure that, like I say, the 50 over tournament in England feels relevant, bilateral series feel relevant when you play them. It just probably the challenge is there's so much cricket to fit in to a short space of time

and then you sort of forcing people to choose. You're forcing your spectator. and the people who watch the game to make a decision as well so yeah I don't have any answers but that's what I think I can sort of make from this conversation because that was going to be the final question is the nub of this whole thing

is that there is too much cricket on the calendar at the moment and how you balance it between the domestic and international game and the formats and I suppose if you're looking into a crystal ball and where the game might be in five, 10 years time where do you think that's going to be?

Yeah, and I think the question is too much cricket for who. You know, that's the thing, isn't it? So if you only play first-class cricket in England, you'll say there's not enough cricket if you go down to 10 games, whereas if you're someone who can play all formats, you'll say there's too much cricket. If you are a T20 player who does not play for your country, but you have the opportunity to travel the world and play franchise tournaments,

you'll say there's a brilliant amount of cricket. So it's who that is for, guess, whether it's the paying public, whether it's the players, whether it's the boards, it's working out, you know, what is the sweet spot of that? And is it okay to not be playing at a certain point in the summer? You know, if you are a specialist in T20 and 50 over cricket, and there's maybe a large chunk of your summer where you're not playing any cricket for your county, you know, maybe that's okay. That you can go do something else. You can play club cricket on the weekends which

better players playing club cricket as well and being able to rub shoulders with county players may improve the sort of the next run down as well of club cricket which could be a really advantageous thing for the game as well so

it's working out I guess like the who who that's for and why you know why these things exist you know that probably if you start with that there's probably the easiest way to try and come up with an answer.

That was Josh Butler speaking on the sports test podcast, available on BBC Sound. We'll be back with commentary of England's T20s in Australia from 9am on the 9th of October. That's followed by every ball of every match from the T20 World Cup. And then we'll have the Pakistan versus England tests in December. Thank you so much for joining us.

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