Test Match Special - Clinton comes to the cricket!

Episode Date: July 21, 2024

Jonathan Agnew welcomes former Crystal Palace and Birmingham striker Clinton Morrison to the TMS commentary box.The 5Live football pundit discusses his friendship with former England bowler Alex Tudor, how he dealt with the pressure of developing through youth football, and the differences between captaining a cricket team to a football team. Plus, Clinton reveals the hard work that goes into being a pundit.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC sounds, music, radio, podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Now, our guest, I was a very familiar voice

to those of you who follow our football coverage on 5 Live. He's part of the BBC team. We've been covering the recent Euros, a man who made a career scoring goals, a Crystal Palace, Birmingham City, Sheffield, Wednesday, amongst others, and represented the Republic of Ireland. On 36 occasions, scoring nine times.

A big cricket fan says, lovely to see Clinton Morrison here in the TMS box. Clinton? Good afternoon. Good man, a shake of their hand. But you're used to all. this you just sit there now in these commentary boxes you know and you're used to the scene I usually people come in go wow look at this I have gone well it is well

because I'm with different people and I have a legend like yourself so it is different and it's a different sport but no I thoroughly enjoy my cricket I've enjoyed my cricket I'm from a young age I really like it I'm trying to get more on my friends in to watch test match cricket because I think test match cricket is outstanding as well you've already won a point for saying that as far as I'm concerned know you have with the test cricket because that's kind of the The thing is, did you play? That's the first thing to ask you.

I played when I was at school. I wasn't the best. When I used to play when I was younger, I used to think, I'll be all right. I was a bowler. So I was a fast bowler and they were saying, oh, Clint, maybe you need to go up the order and bat. Said I can't back. The ball's too quick.

When they're bowling, quick bounces. I was trying to duck my way out of it. So I played at school. And then I realized football was for me and cricket's my second sport. Yeah, I guess you do have to make that choice in the end. But you see, that's a typical bullying fast bully. You bowl fast. You're bowl fast. You scare everybody else.

And then when it comes to your tour, no, thank you. No, thank you. I was like that. And even in fielding, I'd say, get someone else onto field and I'll just wait. And when it's my time to bowl, I'll come back and bowl. But I can't do that nowadays. Did you want to be better? Was it frustrating?

Did you want to be a better cricket? I definitely wanted to be a better cricket. I love, as I said, I love the sport. I think it's a fantastic sport and it's brilliant. I always like to be, we always want to be the hero stuff. And I would love to have been the hero playing cricket. But as I said, I was better at scoring goals than I was bowling. and batting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So therefore, you'll watch a lot of cricket. Yeah, I love it. I love it. I

literally, I like it as much as I like football. Obviously, football will always tip it, tip it because I play down in football, but I love cricket. I watch all sorts of cricket. Every cricket that's on the TV, I will sit down and watch it. People say I'm crazy, but I'm not crazy. I just love the sport. It can take five days. I watch their whole test match for five days. It doesn't bore me. You know when people say about test matches, but it's not boring. You have to sit there. There's an art of that. It's like I was just speaking there to Sir Alistair Cook, who's a legend who I just met there. And we were just talking, that makes a good point.

Sometimes football games are boring. They're not the best. Not every football game is boring. You only have a day in cricket or a session in cricket where it's not good. It doesn't mean test match is not good. I think what Ben Stokes has done for test match and this England team took it to another level. You were saying that, I don't think we reported or not, but he reckoned that Ben Stokes had been to talk to the English.

Yeah, I think he had. I hope I haven't got this wrong, but I heard someone saying it. I think it was when Aaron Ramsdale was on the other day and said Ben Stokes had been down. And he's obviously gone down to what I'm training before they went to the Euros. And I think he was speaking to some of the players at St. George's Park. And listen, me personally, you meet someone like Ben Stokes. I think it's a fantastic cricker. It helps.

And it's different sports, isn't it? Like, yeah, football, it's different sports where they can talk to each other. And I think, yeah, Ben Stokes is a legend. So you're going to listen to him, aren't you? Yeah, and you can sense that crossover between, what would make what Ben Stokes has to say to a footballer relevant, do you think? He's a winner, it's winning mentality, and he breeds winning. And what I like him as a captain is sometimes someone's not having a good day in the field. He's always encouraging them.

Sometimes in football, you don't always get encouraged. And you're thinking, when my next chance come, how am I going to put that in the back of the net? Because I'm still thinking about the one that I missed before. And that could be where someone's dropped to catch or someone hasn't bowed well, and it's been hit for. four or six so I think he's done fantastic and what I like about him as his captaincy is there's pressure on him to deliver and nine times out of ten he does deliver

I know he'd be disappointed getting out with that shot like he did in the first inning's way he was flying but that's the competitor in Ben Stokes and for me he's a legend yeah and it's interesting because clearly a major difference between the sports or so it would appear to a non-footballer like me is that actually the role of

the captains are very different and in cricket clearly the captain is the leader he's the influencer he is that whereas in football I don't know the guy runs around with a band on but does he do much more than that no you're right I think in football you can have 11 captains where on the cricket Ben Stokes is the main main captain even you'll have voices because someone like joe used to captain or might go in his ear and say something to him but when it comes to football I think if the captain's not having a good day on the pitch who's going to bring the captain up

because you still need someone to lift you up if you're not performing on the pitch and I think that's where you can have 11 captains because in football where he's been giving the captain don't mean he's the best player in the team what it means is he's the best leader either on the pitch or in the dressing room because I think captains play key role in the dressing rooms right how they are with when you get certain players who are quiet that go into their shell I captain at a few clubs I was with but I was a bubbly person you couldn't shut me up as everyone knows you can't shut me up I talk too much sometimes and that's why I'm probably good at

doing the commentary because I don't know when to be quiet but I think that's the way you can have captains who are like that and you know some players that need arm round the shoulder or maybe some players that need to say you're not at it this afternoon you need to liven yourself up could a captain be more influential on the football field or is there that very defined role you got the coach on the sidelines and so on would it get confusing no because I think once what the managers and the coaches are good at is the day to day so for Monday to Friday when you're training they deal with everything and if there's a situation with players

I think you have leaders and the captains and then the captains can have two or three people with him that manage the dressing room and and That's what the manager does. And when you've crossed that white line and you go over and you take to the pitch, there's nothing a manager can do. It's all down to the players. And not every day you're going to perform when you go into that football pitch. But that is where your captain can sense where a player needs an arm around the shoulder

or says, come on, you're better than that. Let's deliver. And I think with football, you have your first touch or your first tackle or your first shot and you hit the target. You feel you're going to have a good session. It's like cricket. I think if your timing of the first stroke and it goes to the boundary, you're thinking, I could be here for a long one.

And if you don't bowl well, you're thinking this could be a long day. Yeah, and of course, the batser only gets one shot. That's what I'm saying. That's different. Where I can miss eight chances in front of goal, and the batsman can get, he can nick it and get caught behind. You might get some stick. If you missed eight, I think. If I missed eight, but then it's still nil-0-0, but I scored the winner in the 90th minute.

Everyone forgets about that eight. As a batsman, you're not a hero, are you? Because you've nicked it and you've got caught behind or that slip. So it's a difficult one, but yeah, I never missed eight, though. I only probably missed one. What? O-ed, per man. No, I'm only joking, yeah.

match. That's fair enough. So who do you know? So when you're going and watching your cricket live, where do you tend to go? Well, to be fair, I got into the cricket because my good friend who I grew up with Alex Tudor, he used to take me to Surrey. Oh, right. Okay. Obviously, Alex Tudor got me into the cricket massively because we grew up in the same area. So I'd always go to Surrey, Matt. What a lovely man. His dad works at the Oval. Yeah, he's dad. Now he's back in Barbados, yeah, but he was always there. Yeah, he's back living in Barbados with the sunshine. Can't blame him, can you really, truly? Alex, you're at 99.

99. Oh yeah. I told him... Like Watchman? Yeah, but it's better for him. He's more famous for not getting 100, because everyone would have forgotten for the 99. So he still has nightmares about that. But no, and then I used to go and see... I call him Uncle Alex Stewart, because he's a legend.

A big Chelsea fan, and I always rib him about that. But he's good Mark Rampakash and Butch. I always used to go in the change room and they'd bring me in there. And I just used to grow into it. And that's what made me love cricket. And then you just watch the different eras. and stuff like that. And I like it.

People look at me and say, oh, why do you, how could you sit there and watch it? I said because it's an entertaining sport. Yes. Do you think it's accessible enough? I mean, you're from tooting. Yes. When I walked out about in 1984, West Indies,

yes. That left-hand side was full of West Indian supporters. You're all gone, you know, they've been kind of priced out. There's cricket in schools has kind of gone for the majority of people. I think we need to get that back. Behind a pay wall.

Yeah. So it's hardly surprised. It is and it costs a lot of money. I totally understand that. It's expensive sport, but I think we can do more for the youngsters because I think there's a lot of talent. It's the same way where we're looking at football and you see different backgrounds. Not everyone can afford to send their some to the top of the range football club or, you know, batting or bowling, whatever they want to do. So it's difficult, but I think more can be done for youngsters to come through because there's a lot of youngsters that do like the cricket, but it does take time. But if you're good, I always feel, John, if you're good enough, you'll have a chance to make it one,

way or the other, a circle will come around and you'll get your opportunity. Yeah. Don't you think I'd be able to see it though? Do you have to be able to see your heroes? I mean I used to sit and watch a test match on the telly. But like you, when I was a kid, shut the curtains, black and white telly in those days. But then you could see in my case John Snow or Railingworth or these people who could see them and then you'd think, oh I want to be him and you'd go out and pretend you're a railingworth with your tongue poking out with your side of your mouth when he bowled and all those little things you know. You know what I would say to anyone, you know, you're doubting cricket.

Come and watch cricket live. I think once you come and watch cricket like, it's different watching out home on the TV, but you think it's slow. When you come and watch it live and you're in the atmosphere and you see, you know, when they're set in the field and where people are going and the bowling and here, because I'm watching it live. And when I've been watching at TV, you don't know the wicketkeeper stands so far back.

Because the ball is travelling. At home, you don't think he's bowling at great. Obviously, you think Mark Wood is because I thought the spell the other day is one of the best I've ever seen. That is in terms of football, where you're in front of goal and you're having every shot and you've got a goalkeeper who's amazing and you're not getting any luck or you're hitting a post. I thought Wood the other day, his spell is fantastic. And he got nothing. He got nothing.

But I like players like that, wholehearted, brilliant. The only thing I would say is maybe when he's doing his run-up, don't keep falling over. He always has done. I know he always has that. But then when he does his warm-up, you never see him falling over. No, he don't. So that could be something that is in his head mentally. So much effort.

Yeah, so much just fantastic bowler though. Can you imagine facing cricket ball coming at you at 97 miles? No, I can't. Can you imagine it for a nano setting? You know what I would have done? If he's Mark Woods, I'd kept putting my hand up. No, I'm not ready, I'm player.

And then I'd say to the, to the dressing room, I've got to go off, I've got to go off. I can't face Mark Wood. He's a brilliant bowler. Or move that sight screen between him and me. Yes, exactly, exactly. It is, and you're right. I always say to people, you know, fast bowling.

You can sit and watch it on the telly, and yeah, it looks pretty quick. you know, you come live and you sit, especially sideways on these grounds, and yeah, you see how far back the Wheatkeeper is, and you, well, you can hardly see that ball going down, can't it? It's the blur. You can't, sometimes you can't see it, and then

it's in the silvers. And imagine that, then these West Indian bowlers are nowhere near as quick as what Mark Wood is. So imagine Smith trying to collect the ball when it's, and that's why I have to give credit to the wicket keepers, sorry, sometimes because when it's coming down and it's wobbling and to hold on to that. That must be the hardest,

job as well, wicketkeeper. They get a lot of stick for dropping catches, but it is hard. It definitely is hard. Are you, do you follow West Indian cricket particularly? Listen, I love watching England. I'm a big England fan. I'm a big fan of, and this one bowler, I hope he does come back because I think he's fantastic and play test match cricket is Joffra Archer, I think. The way he makes the game look so natural, the way he comes up on both. You always have

favorite cricketers, and I'd say probably Ben Stokes, Joffra Archer. I like Root. I think Joe Root's fantastic, one of the best batsmen there is out there, makes the game look so easy. But I like West Indies. Cricket. It's gone downhill, I think, over the years. Not in the T20 or the 50 over, because they've got, had people like the Universal Boss and Dre Russ, who are just entertaining. And that's entertaining.

Did you like, so you're a Chris Gale man? Oh, I love Chris Gale. I think if I had to battle with Chris Gell and I said we wanted to run a two, Chris Gell would say we're not running a two. I'm just going to pull it out of the stand, to be fair. But yeah, I think, yeah, I do like that. That's charisma. I mean, he's charisma.

He, he, he, and it's interesting, I don't know whether, what football is you have, but in terms of just attracting people to a game. Yes. To a sport. Well, that's it. Someone like Chris Gale's extraordinary. Well, that's, but that's why I say T20 and 50 over cricket. That's why everyone likes it, in particular, T20, because it's a short format.

And when you watch someone like Chris Gow, Chris Gow and J. Russ putting it, you know, in the six, even Carlos, even Carlos, I always remember that. Remember the name when Bishop, Ian Bishop's that. And I've managed to come. I've met him. I've met Carlos because we've done question of us. sport before and I got more cricket questions right more than him

well they call off yeah I did that's not hard it's not hard though but he's a nice guy and we still message and we keep in contact so it's good to keep in contact with him but I think test match cricket is different and we should still be out here watching test match cricket because as I said what Ben Stokes is doing with this England team for test match cricket is fantastic

do you worry about the future of test match cricket I do worry you like all formats yeah but I mean can you see test cricket kind of being pushed into the sidelines? No, because I think more of the top players have to carry on playing test match cricket. So you like, obviously, I know Josh Butler's not playing today, but I still like Josh Butler to be playing test match cricket.

I think he's a fantastic, obviously one day captain, but I don't think it would get pushed to the side because I think when you've got the likes of Ben Stokes who keeps pushing it and pushing it and it becomes entertaining. I think when you look at test match cricket, like when the Lord's, and it's over in three days, that's the frustrated. Yeah, it is.

And then I think you look at West Indies, and you're thinking, are they producing? But then you look at West Indies in this match, in the first innings where a lot of people wrote West Indies off, they were fantastic. Young Hodge, the way he played, the 100 was fantastic. You look at him, you keep trying to bounce him, he just kept hooking it.

I thought he was fantastic some of the shots he played. So, yeah, those young players that they've got there, they've got a big future West Indies, and I have to keep believing. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. ultimate off-road challenge, perfect for the ultimate defender. The high-performance defender, Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension.

Learn more at landrover.ca. What was it like for you getting into football? Because a friend of mine has a young son. I think he's about 12 or 13. It was having trials up at Knott's County just behind us here. And you could feel the pressure of, on the young lad for a start actually and on the parents as well. And I was thinking, and when I was, you know, I was going to be talking to you,

there are football, don't get this wrong. No, no. Footballing superstars. Yeah, of course there is. Who are out there. The names are in light. Yeah, of course. Others have to do the hard work.

Definitely. And you make a career out of it. Yeah. 600 or games of you play. Yeah. But to get into professional football, particularly, I mean, everyone assumes that the paper just paved with gold and everything's, that's it. Your whole life is rosy for them on, which I'm sure isn't the case.

Yeah. But did you have that sort of pressure on you? Did you feel that you just had to do? What was it like when you were trying to get up? No, do you know, it's different for me as a youngster growing up. I'll be honest with you. I'm not going to be as honest as I am, can't it. I didn't have much growing up.

It was a single parent. So it was me, my mum and my sister growing up. So we were in a council estate in South London. I knew I had a talent when I was growing up at football. I was determined. I did not want to have my family growing up. up in that council state. So every time I went on to that pitch,

I had a desire to work hard. You might not be the best, but the one thing I would always say is work hard. You work hard. You look at the best, these are the two best players that for me have ever played recently. You look at Ronaldo, you look at Messi.

Messi had natural talent. Cristiano and Ronaldo had to work hard to get to that talent. He's the best example I could say. And he's up there. That's elite football. But I'm saying anyone who's at 13, it is hard. It is hard.

It's all about timing as well. because you can be one of the best players ever, but when the scouts there watching you that day, you could have an off day and he might say, I can't work with him. And then the player who wasn't as good as what you are gets the opportunity. So it's all about timing.

It definitely is timing, but you've got to have natural ability. But what I would say is I got released at Tottenham when I was 14 because I took my foot off the pedal because I thought I already made it. Then I went to Palace on trial. I went to Palace on trial. I was going to give up football.

I didn't want football because it was a big knockback. Went to Palace on trial. I scored a hatchick. never looked back after my first season in the youth team Tottenham came calling again and said oh could we have you and I said no you've released me I'm at Palace and then I made my debut when I was when I was nearly yeah 17 in the Premier League for Palace and scored so you always hear of stories where it doesn't mean as a youngster where you've been released that that's the end no if you've still

got that determination and goal to be successful you can push yourself and that's what I always say but that's in any sport that's like cricket as well there'll be players that get of course that think they're not good enough There must be so many people trying to get into football. There is so many kids. There's so many parents, the pressure that's going on there. Well, the parents sometimes, I've watched a lot, try to play, live their kids' dream.

Because they didn't make it. They're on the sideline, shouting at their kids and telling them what to do. And I've seen a lot of that. Sometimes the best thing is let the kids go and enjoy it. At 13 and 14, you're going to get pressure when you get to 19, 20, playing in front of 50,000 fans and you're not producing and you've got someone in the fan

in the stand telling you you're not good enough. So just let the kids at first. 13, 14, 14, go and enjoy this up and play with a smile on your face. Because for me, that's the best thing to do. Yeah, and social media these days must be. Oh, I'm so glad. Very tough. That social media wasn't around because I feel you can get sucked into it

and you can't look at it. Even though you shouldn't look at it and a lot of people say, you just can't help it, can you? And you have the negative comments. I'll be honest with you. When I first went into the cold comm staff and doing the media stuff and the pundit stuff, I would get a bit of stick and it used to bother me. But in the end, you embrace that.

And you know what? Embraces, you go and prove them wrong. You do your homework and become better. And then you win them over. And the same people who were having a go at you before try to speak to you and be nice to you. You know what I do? I shake their hand and smile at them. Because what they want you to do is go and have a go at them.

But I don't do that. You have to play the game really well. And that's what I tried to do. Yeah. Was it easy retiring? I don't know how you finished. No, I'd be on. Yeah, I did.

They finished when I was 36. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do in football. I wasn't one of those who spent loads of money. I invested my money, so I was clever with my money. My mum helped me a lot in that instance, and so did my wife. So they helped me a lot, so I invested a lot into stuff. But it was the hardest thing, because they say prepare that you're going to retire. I never did.

I was one of those who always thought I was young and were going to play on forever and ever and ever. And this is probably only the second or third time I've ever said that. I'm one of the most bubbly persons you'll meet. I suffered with a bit of depression. I suffered with a bit of depression. I wouldn't come out the house for a couple of months because I think not so much where you miss the football on the pitch is the day-to-day interaction in the change room.

That was the life and soul of keeping everyone going and stuff like that. So you do miss it. But once I got the opportunity to get into the media, I meet lovely people like yourself and be able to work with lovely people. And that's a big compliment, may I say. Because I've met you before we came here and you're a nice guy. and you meet good people and everyone I've met here is brilliant. Fathers, I love Fadler. I love that.

He's very passionate. But that's what I like. I like passionate people because he still loves the sport now. Even and he's played it years ago and he still loves it now. I like the passion. That would be me and any sport I like the passion. If you're, I want people to do what. Show that it cares.

That's the big thing. Show it cares. You know, people have coming in here to watch you. Show it cares and it means a lot to you to represent your country and play. Did you find it easier going into the media then? I mean, you're a chatterbox, crick. I mean, I can see that. But in terms of the discipline, I mean, yeah, I mean, people say,

I want to go and do telly and do the football, but that's under a spotlight as well. And again, particularly football, I guess, because there's a lot of competition too, between the various networks and the commentary teams and all of that. I mean, it's not just a case of rocking up and picking up a microphone, is it?

No, it's not easy. And everyone thinks it is easy. You've got to do your homework. You've got to go out there, you've got to watch the players, you've got to look at their stats and stuff and then be able to produce because if the presenter asks you on a Saturday or in the midweek

and you don't know the answer or don't know the football player then you shouldn't be doing it. But everyone thinks it's easy because you probably might watch match of the day on a Saturday and watch highlights for an hour and a half and think you can just come and talk about every players

but say a youngster's come through and he made his debut and you don't know about him so that's why I do my home work I listen to a lot of podcasts, I read a lot and you have to do it because you don't want to be caught slipping because everyone wants to come and do the media now so you need to have that energy but what I'm a bit different to other people because

I've got full of energy so everyone goes even if Clinton's there it always have energy and I have fun with it this is what I have fun of it's like now me and you I've just met you but I feel like I'm having fun with it some people you could probably come here and be speaking to someone someone would give you one word answers but I know I'm as honest as they come and I enjoy what I do because it might not be I might not do it for I might only do it for the next three or four years but I make sure I'll enjoy it for the next three or four years because that's what I want to do. Listen, I want to do it for the next 10 or 12 years if I can.

There's always people coming up. That's what I mean. There's always people coming up. So you've always got to keep on your toes and you've always got to keep improving and keep doing better. And that's what I'd say to someone. If someone wants to get into the media, you have to work hard at it.

It's not natural. Yeah. And did anyone help you in particular? I'll tell you what. There's some big names that did help me, to be fair. I remember working once I was doing a live game and someone texted me after the game and said, well done.

It was a pleasure. you're working with you. So I said to the producer, there's only one person and another person there, and I already had his number. So was it him, the main man? And then I text back, the producer said, yeah, he asked for your numbers, so I text him and said, thanks very much, but who is this?

And he put number 14. So I was like, okay, I know who number 14 in it. So it was Tieri-Henri. Oh, so you're your turn. Yeah, one of the, and now we've become friends. Alan Sherrod was the same Premier League record, all-time Gold Squad, text me and said, lovely working with you, keep up the good work.

And Ian Wright, they're the first. I'd say help, as I've helped me massively. And now where I work on Soccer Saturday, me and Paul Merson have a great relationship and we check up on each other all the time. But you get to meet all these legends of footballers and they become your friends, so it's just brilliant. You know I said to you that I just,

I've never been involved in football. It's a big regret, but I've never played at my school. I've seen one football match in my life. Yeah. Arsenal, and I think it was against Portsmouth. Okay. And Thierry scored a hat trick. Yeah, that doesn't surprise anyone that would be listening at Thierry-on-Ree

because in that era, Thierry-on-Ree was the best player in the Premier League. Well, I was looking at him and thinking that's David Gower. Yes. Or Andre Agassi. Aggosy, yeah, because the levels they were at. Different. There's that little bit more. Yeah, like David Gow was a fantastic batsman, left-handed.

Andre Agassi with the tennis. Tierra In that era of the Football Premier League was the best player. You asked any individual who had to play against the area over me, I was at the other end watching him. The things he could do with the football and he's finishing was fantastic. So there's something about those two. I mean, Agassi and Orrith, they just seem to know in a tennis court or whatever. Yes.

They seem to know where the ball is going to be. They have that little bit ahead. It's like Gower playing the fast bowlers. How is he doing this? Yeah, how is he doing that and just putting it to the boundary? It's just natural talent. Listen, they've had to work on it. It is timing, but it's also natural talent as well.

But you still have to work. You can have the best natural talent. But if you don't work hard at it, you won't be successful. Do you find in your experience of people like that, and we're talking now, I suppose, moving on to the England coach scenario. Yeah. In my experience, the cricket, often the most natural players are not the best coaches because it's just happened easily for them,

and they can't go out and go out and play, can't they? You mentioned Ronaldo, who has to be brilliant, but he worked at his game. Yeah, he worked at his game. Whereas there are others that just happens. The people who I find are the best coaches, are those. who have had to work at their game. Yeah, and it hasn't come naturally. They can put it, yes, they can put it.

Yeah, I agree with you on that. Listen, it doesn't mean because you've had a fantastic football career that you've gone to be a fantastic manager. I think sometimes the people have done the hard graph and done all their culture and badges and gone to certain places and spoke to certain people that can improve their game. So, yeah, it can be like that.

It's like, no way England changed it with the cricket and they brought in Brendan McCollum. And they worked with Ben Stolves. Now, Brendan McCollum, when you watch Brendan McCollum, play. Brendan McCullen's not blocking shots. Oh no. He's never has done. Yeah, he never has done and that's his mental, that's what

his team show now in England are out there now. They're not just, you know, blocking, blocking they're there and they're entertaining and that's what we're in. We're in a sport that's full of entertainment. So you want to be entertained and not all the time because sometimes you can play reckless shots and you're thinking, why did you do that? Why didn't you just

protect? There's only four or five balls to go in the day. So yeah, but it's a difficult one because with the management... You also have to win though. Yeah, you have to win. That's what it's all about. winning. It is winning. That's what people forget. It's an entertaining sport, but it's also about winning as well. And even if you don't entertain, it's about winning. You could win ugly. That's what I'm saying, everyone was moaning about England and the euros. I can guarantee you now if they played like they had done and beating Spain in the final. Everyone

would have forgot about the early stages of moaning at Gail Southgate about negative football because he's brought it home for everyone in the country. So yeah, it's a difficult. Being a manager, I think is the hardest thing. But surely again, also being a football manager. You're dealing with multi-millionaire young men. Yeah, yeah. You know? And of course they're under pressure and it's easy again to generalise to say, oh, they don't care,

they're getting... But of course they do because they're professionals and they've got their careers and everything else. But it must be difficult managing young men like that. You know where it's difficult to manage? You've got a pick an 11 and you've got a squad of about 20, even sometimes more than 20

players. If you look at Chelsea, Chelsea squad is massive because they've signed loads of players. How do you keep all of that squad happy? Because you know what your best 11 is and how you're going to play your best 11 and who's going to play and you might need two or three off the bench but if you keep picking that same 11

and they keep winning all the time and the same subs come on, what about the 4 or 5 when you get injuries? How are their head going to be? But that is why managers are brilliant and that's why they lean on a lot of their coaches as well. Coaches play a big part because the coaches are the people that go in between

if the manager has to make the decision of you're not playing the coach and then go and speak to the player and tell him why he's not playing. And I think coach is play a big part in that. But listen, in any sports, we all have egos. We all think we should be playing. Yes, of course.

Every player thinks they should be playing and the manager's not right. I clash with loads of my managers. If I could turn back the clock now, I would say to my manager, you probably made the right decision. But then I thought I was the best player in the world and I thought I should be playing week in week out.

It's not until you get older and you look back on your career and think the manager made the right decision then. I don't always have to agree with him at the time. No. When you look back, you think he did make it. And was the relationship such that you could tell him? Yeah, I could tell him.

Hang on. I should be playing. Yeah, I used to do it with Steve Bruce. Steve Bruce, my manager that I had, I had him at Crystal Palace and then he took me to the Premier League with Birmingham City. He knew how to handle me. He knows I would rant and rave and go off on one. And he says, leave him because he'll come back in two or three minutes. And they'll apologize that he's made the mistake.

Yeah, this is on the pitch. Mainly in training. If I didn't like a decision, because I was still passionate in training. I wanted to win every training session. and I wanted to win all the games in training. So I was passionate. Because I think I've always been told train how you play. You can't just go through the week of training like that

and expect to turn it on on a Saturday. So I tried to train as hard as I can, put the effort in during the week. And then on Saturday, you reap your rewards. And he just knew how to handle me. But I'd tell him, if he told me I wasn't playing on a Saturday, in a Friday he'd tell me, because if you told me on a Saturday,

my head wouldn't be right if I was to come on. I'd be disappointing. And I'd be questioning him for about half an hour. And in the end, I'd get it. and he would get there and we'd talk about it. And then a Saturday I'd come off the bench and score the winner and run over to him and said, don't ever do that again.

Do you know, actually, I've only half an hour, but I can imagine you. Yeah, that's me, that's me, that's me. And how about, I mean, you're up front, you're striking, all that, and you're up against some pretty tough people, I guess, trying to stop you. What was, what's that like?

When you're going, quite intimidating? Is it like me, you know, us going out there and facing fast bowling? Yeah, definitely. Big guys who are chopping you down. And then you're playing against some world-class defenders as well, and you're thinking,

And you keep feeling him coming in the back of you, elbowing you. You're going up for headers and you're looking at the referee and he's not protecting you. And then you're thinking, well, the only way I've got to get out of this is I've got to use my elbows and back into the centre halves and stuff and be physical because it is a physical game on football. But yeah, it's good. But you learn a lot. I think when I went and played international football and was playing in the Premier League, you're playing against the cream of the crop, the best defenders in the world. So you learn a lot and you become more streetwise. And that's the big thing I could say streetwise is massive.

but I learned a lot from playing football. As I said, I was really privileged to play football because everyone wants to be a professional football or a professional cricket. And it is hard to make it. So sometimes I sit back now and I pinch myself and said, I've lived everyone's dream. I've lived a boy's dream from South London

who was struggling and then all of a sudden has come and been a professional football and now doing the media. So if it ends tomorrow, which it ain't going to end because I'm so positive, it's been a great journey for me and that's the best thing I could do. But that puts it all the confidence.

Yeah, it does. It does. Listen, I made my family proud, I made myself proud, and that's the most important thing. Yeah. How's your mum doing now? She's all right. She's living her best life, to be fair, so she's very happy. She's proud of her son. She still tells me off now. Even though, I'm 45 years of age. Even if I go out, she still tells me off and says, you should be home. I'm married with kids. It's not like, no, but you still should be home. Text me when you get home. But that's mom's for you. It'll always be like that. Yeah. Did she come and watch you play? Yeah, she watched me play. Listen, you would, out of, there could be 40, 50,000 in there. If I'm not doing it, that'd be the one woman you could hear screaming. Oh, no, you're kidding. And it'd be her tame, you're not doing good enough. And I'd look at it and say, are you real? And then I'd say, all right, I'm going to prove you wrong.

And then I'd score and I'd go and celebrate and she'd be like, that's better. And it's because of what I said, why you've produced. And I was like, fair enough. So that's the kind of relationship me and my mom have had. Everyone knows it's a special bond and it would never be taken away. It's fabulous. Hey, he's been lovely meeting, Clinton. It really has.

It's brilliant. I've really enjoyed that. I've met some good people since I've been there. You like to tease Carlos. I'm going to tease Carlos. Which one did he get wrong? He got nearly every cricket question wrong. And probably it was a West Indian cricket question.

And he got it wrong. No, he didn't really get the West Indian cricket wrong. I can't be that bad on Carlos. But he's a great guy, Carlos is. I always remember that. I remember the name when he hit the scene. I know it was horrible, but it was horrible for poor old Stokes. He has come back, Stokes, and that's the sort of thing.

Yeah, Stokes has come back. And that's, since he's had that knee-injured operation. Oh, yeah. He looks really well and England need him because he's bowling is fantastic. I can tell I'm a bit of a Ben Stokes fan. I can't. Clenson, top man, love it to have had it. Thank you.

Thank you.