Test Match Special - Cook and Vaughan on the right time to retire

Episode Date: August 5, 2023

Stuart Broad retired after dramatically taking the last two wickets in the 2023 Ashes series. Broad had no doubts that he’d picked the perfect moment to call it a day. But how do players decide the right time to retire? Daniel Norcross is joined by Sir Alastair Cook who scored a century in his last Test also at the Oval and Michael Vaughan who retired in 2009 following injury problems.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. You're listening to the TMS Podcast. from BBC Radio 5 Live.

I've got Alastair Cook alongside me and Michael Vaughn and we're just reflecting too much on Stuart Braw because it's been a lot of time reflecting on him and his career, but on how and when you decide to quit. And I'll start with you, Alist, because it was here five years ago and just from a personal point of view is one of the most remarkable atmospheres

I've ever experienced at a cricket ground when you announced your retirement before that test match and so the crowd all knew that you were leaving and I know this is going to be difficult for you to hear so I'll fill in the details but basically

everybody was I think grateful actually for the career that Alistair had had and what he'd put into English cricket and that was reflected in the atmosphere here time after time you would go out to back you've got a 50 in a century so you're out there

quite a long time and every time you walked out they stood up I think we calculated something like 14 standing evasions you got. And it got more and more fervid with everyone until it culminated in you getting that century with the overthrows which you'd done here against Pakistan,

didn't you in 2010? And the crowd erupted, and you couldn't stop them. Do you remember it? Well, of course you remember. It was like two and a half minutes of emotion from the crowd. And we felt it up here. Did you feel that out there? That's probably the only time in the moment that I got emotional. It was a really interesting week. I've been played slightly differently to Stuart Broad.

The series was gone. We'd won the series. My decision wasn't affecting the team in the sense of that's why I decided to announce it before the game. I've been in a lucky few who've been able to call time on their career in when they wanted to, when I wanted to. So, you know, if you try and choreograph something, I don't know whether I got it right in terms of announcing the week before, and I think Agar's read out my statement, actually.

And then quite a few people called that I shouldn't play the last game, which is quite right. You know, in one sense, I wasn't going on tour to, I think it was Sri Lanka the next one. They wanted to give the other open who might come in a chance to play. That was their reason. So it was an uncomfortable week in the fact that the, The attention was all about me, which is not the nicest place in one sense

because I'm still desperate to try and score runs and everyone taps you in the back saying, oh, it doesn't matter this week. Just go and enjoy it. Well, you walk out to bat and you get a brilliant ovation on day one. The last thing you want to do is a tail between your legs, getting a gnaught and being on a pair or something in your last game. So there was that professional pride of wanting to go out,

scoring some runs. But, yeah, look, it couldn't have gone any better. Well, do you know, in the commentary box, it's kind of weird, none of us wanted to get you out either. So we had this imaginary. Who batted, who bowled the balled the ball? Was it? Was it Agers or suck?

Agger's got you out. I got you 100. I didn't know that. I've never heard me getting out on radio. I've never heard the final bit. There were only three commentators for that game. I don't think each had did that game. It was me, Simon and Agers.

And we passed. When we got off our stints, we would pass the other an imaginary gun. It was Russian roulette and say, right, you've got 20 minutes to go now. You could be getting him out because no one wanted to have to get you out and have to do that rather, you know, genuinely sad moment of you walking off. So if that was how we felt, heaven knows how you felt. Now, I was lucky enough to get your 100, which was the easiest thing you're ever going to call because you just got the crowd who were all just shouting like crazy.

You just let them fill the space for you. But taking your wicket was a thing that neither of a, well, all three of us were just desperately trying to avoid. And actually when I was batting, in my mind, I've always, I've always said commit and watch the ball. Once I've worked out my method in 2010, commit and watched the ball. So I said to myself, every ball. And then that innings, don't let this one be the last. Don't let this one be the last. That was my concentration method for that, for that inning.

And, yeah, look, the only time I generally got nervous, in that game was actually when I was on 40 odd on the end of day three because on day four I'd organized you know a box of some friends to come basically give them give them free beer their farmers and school friends they're going to make the most of it and actually I wanted them then that's when I started about I think we're playing till seven o'clock because a bit of rain delay or might even be seven days that was when I was like don't get out now because actually give them the opportunity that's the only time I got like above nervous to to do Well, the effect of you in that game was that I remember clearly that they hadn't sold out the fourth day, and when you were still in, the close of play, the remaining tickets got sold within an hour, every single one of them, because everyone needed, everyone wanted to be there.

Well, that's my cut of that. Well, I don't think it works quite like that. You got paid by the ECB. That's where your cut was. But it was an amazing thing, but what I want to dwell on a little is that you're still playing. So you played five years. after you finished playing for England whereas Stuart Broad two days ago was still a professional cricket he was still playing for Nottinghamshire playing for England

and then he's from what we've heard working up one day and he's just said to Stokes on Friday I'm done and he's told us all on Saturday it's over and then that's it

he won't play another game of cricket again you you have got and played county championship and Bob Willis Trophy for Essex for the last five years So what was going on in your mind? There was obviously a bit different

from what's going on in Stuart's mind because you wanted to just keep playing but not playing for England. Well, obviously, when I made the decision and the decision I know the final time was Trent Bridge when I walked out, I think it was Ashwin got me out. I mean, Zaltz just walked away from his computer

but I think Ashwin got me out in Trent Bridge and I walked off and I put my pads down and I was like, that was the moment I knew I wanted to retire that summer for international cricket. I had a tough tour against Australia in Australia I got that 200 odd on that real green seamer at Melbourne

But the series was done And that bothered me actually Because I went down there In a good space mentally In terms of like I didn't have the pressure of Captain C Hadn't have the pressure of Captain C Australia is a good place to go and bat

I've enjoyed batting in Australia in the past And I just thought Yeah I'm going to have a good tour here I was hitting the ball nicely and for those first three games I just could not get the rhythm of batting I couldn't get my flow I know I have gone through periods

at that time and that concerned me and then you start questioning you know like do I want it as much so then you train harder then you do exercise it got to me a bit then I got that double under it then I went to New Zealand and the same thing happened in New Zealand those things and

Stuart Broadway won't mind me mention it but one of those net sessions at some stage he said to me And I don't know what he said. Cool, you're back early. Obviously, I don't probably train half as hard as Stokes does. But I was always above the curve in my training. I like my fitness.

I like doing the gym. And that was kind of what kept me, like, saying to us, I'm working hard on the bloke next to me. That's how I operate. I'm never the most talented batsman out there. But I grinded away. And when I started questioning those things, and I remember lying on the outfield of New Zealand with Chris Silverwood,

at the end of that's, well, I've been out four times. The series was done. And I said to Spoon, I said, I'm not sure how much longer I can do this. And he said, well, you've just tired after seven test matches in the winter. Obviously, one of the prouds, I hadn't missed a test match. So I've been on the thing. But it's like, go home, have a couple of months, and then play that Pakistan season, see how you felt. So I tried to refresh.

But it already started. It already started in my mind. It felt good in the first series. But as soon as then you're batting in the nets and you're not getting that same drive of determination to keep improving myself and those little comments the harmless comments oh you're finished only

not back as much today that's when I started look in the mirror and going well I think it's time and then when I made that decision then I you know the first person obviously I was going to tell was Alice and I remember

I walked back to the hotel she was very heavily pregnant and I was like I'm going to tell her and often she I've told her like you know I've struggled me a bit she's like go and have a beer and tough enough a bit You're going to have a beer next day.

It's just one of those periods. That's what you need as a play. You need a lot of love sometimes. You also need a bit of harsh love. And throughout my career, she's very good at just occasionally saying, no, you'll be fine, just one of those moments. Go and have a beer, go and see someone, and then get back on working on. And that's what I need in.

And anyway, I got about it. I was going to tell her that night. And we started watching the In Between his movie. Great fun, laughing. I thought, I don't have to ruin it now, but having one of those conversations saying. So next morning, walks the ground. And sorry, anti-corruption, ICCC. I didn't hand my phone in.

So I texted, good old, good old manny thing to do. Text her, I'm going to retire. And then the series. And, you know, WhatsApp's typing, isn't it? You see the other person typing. It's just forever typing. I was like, I was dreading it because I was no, I was going to get that message.

But I felt it was going to get one of those real long messages saying, don't be silly, blah. You love playing for England. You're still plenty good enough. Keep fighting through, all that kind of stuff. I knew, this time I knew myself. and then all the words came back was I know wow so I was like

so that was it she had obviously spotted something she should never like ever would never have ever said something to me about and then I was like right I need to go and tell someone else now so I wanted to go out whenever it was that day sat Jimmy outside and Jimmy's not a great watch of cricket doesn't we don't often see him on the balcony not because he doesn't like we'll support the lads it's just his method of dealing with playing cricket

and it's done work I got him outside just me and him on the balcony I covered my mouth and said, I'm retiring at the end of the summer. So I'm just checking that no one could see or anything. Paranoid, probably. And I did it in public so he couldn't react too much either. And I just wanted to see what happened when I said it to someone. And as soon as I said it, it's like weight was lifted on my shoulder. I didn't regret those words.

And that's why I knew it was exactly the right time to do for me. And then it's just a matter of the process. And I didn't want anyone, I didn't want it to be leaked out quietly or whatever. didn't want whispers about it, so I told a couple of people, told Joe wrote the golf course at Southampton, before Southampton, and Stuart Broad there, the only three people who knew. And that was before, that was fourth test,

fourth test, and then told the lads at end of Southampton. I've been speaking to Agers about it as well. So Agers was the only person outside, and then we gave it to him to read out. He didn't give us a scoop. Well, the problem, like all these things, you don't want too many. I didn't want too many people to know,

No, he did the right thing. For me, it was a very personal thing, and I wanted to, and whether I got it right in terms of making the week about you, but, you know, I wouldn't swap it for the world. The reason I carried on playing is 33 years old. Physically, it's a very different thing from bowling. You know, bowling is actually going to churn out over the canton cricket. I still love playing cricket. I just, something was missing at the elite level, and I didn't want to walk, I didn't want to get dropped in one sense, I didn't want to walk away, not on my terms. What was it that was missing? I don't know. To this day, I still. don't know what made me change that thing. Actually, Vaughney in one sense, and I don't know if I've told the story or not,

but Vaughney went in the lift in, I think it was Birmingham, and I scored 700 test runs at this stage. And he said to me, you're going to be the first Englishman to score 10,000 runs. I was like, bloody out, that's, I'll take that, thank you very much. I'll take that. That's a decent career. And that's what my goal was then. But obviously winning all the other stuff, but you'd have something, in my opinion.

something which is attainable as a personal thing, which doesn't go above the team, doesn't go above selfishness, but something which makes me run. I used to run at 5 o'clock in the morning, make you hard for yourself. Don't run at like 2 in the afternoon. Run at 5 where, you know,

I don't know why, but that's what I did. And that's why every morning, when I went, not every morning, I went for a rumble, the reason I ran at tough times or swim at tough times was because I wanted to score 10,000 run. And then I think the day probably changed

is when I did score 10,000 runs. And I woke up the next day and I was, it didn't affect me. It wasn't that life-turned goal. And actually, the psychologists did tell me that. I didn't believe him. Because I thought, well, Jack Callis, I remember when we started discussing all this stuff about mentals, Jack Callis is right.

He's got 13,000 runs, 300 wickets, wherever he's got. He just walks out and enjoys cricket. And he goes, I bet he doesn't. I bet he still wants that. And actually, now knowing what I throw out my career, actually, absolutely he was still driven. It was still hurting, whatever. And I scored 10,000 runs. And something just changed a little bit.

that I didn't have another goal to go and whatever we then we tried other little things and it didn't capture what I needed and that kind of then started to drag down

because we set you we hoped that you were going to have the other goal because obviously people like me and Andy's not here now but at the start of every every summer we go how many tests

does cookie need to go past tendorca it's only 15,900 he's been retired from international cricket five years he played those five years, it had gone past 10-door but of course, that obviously wasn't

driving you. I mean, was going past Graham Gooch as your mentor to a degree, wasn't he? Yeah, absolutely. It was. And he was England's leading run scorer with 8,900. When he went past him, how did I mean, the best

thing about that was, was James Foster's text message to me, where he just said you don't have to listen to him anymore, do you? You can do what you want. Because obviously, here's my coach and he said, don't write about him. You're better than him now. Obviously, I was never better than it would be thousand.

So, no, that was never a goal to be better than to score more runs of Gucci. It was just to get 10,

on a purely personal batting term was to get 10,000 runs. But if that goal had been 13,000 or 14,000, it might have been different.

Right. But, man, some of the ruts I went in as a batsman. You know, 2010 before you mentioned that 100,

at overthrows against Pakistan, averaging eight or something for six test matches. So suddenly like those, if I'd set 14,000 as a goal, or whatever goal was different,

It looks miles away when you scored seven, do you know what I mean? So it is, goals can be limiting, but goals can be also, they need to be obtainable. But how about since then? So you retired five years ago, and in that time, you're seeing so many of the people that you've played so much your cricket with, still playing broad, Anderson, Root, to degree, Stokes. I've played a lot. but it's made it it's now broad not that I wanted

these guys to go but I found the first year of commentating incredibly hard I felt so emotionally attached to those players

you know really close because you spent so many times so many conversation I didn't want to ever betray their trust I didn't want ever talk ill of them

because I know I know how hard it is and what one of the great things I go back and get two fours against Hampshire last week and I remind me actually this game

is incredibly hard and I try and you can very quickly forget that. You can very quickly forget it because you forget the stress that the players go through so I found that very hard. Did you ever think actually I wish I was back out there because you'd watch England's travails especially at the top of the order

and it was a big thing trying to find an opening partner for you but then when you went trying to put an opening partnership together and there were lots of people saying oh cookie why don't you come back we need you for the Ashes tour or we need you for whatever big series is coming up. Did it ever

cross your mind to reverse your decision? I had two weeks. I had a two week period and I can't remember anymore after a couple of years where I had some five reoccurring dreams in two weeks about making a comeback.

And enough for me to tell Alice ring Jimmy, Rudy and Brody about it. And that was like it was a really strange couple of weeks I randomly started running again at five in the morning. I started doing this. I rang Jimmy, spoke to him, him. And in the back of my mind, it was always

comebacks don't go well. And then Jimmy sent me 15 comebacks who went well. Boycott was one of them. Well, I don't know. Surprisingly, he wasn't on what Jimmy's list. But then, but then common sense prevailed. Common sense did prevail because then I started batting the nets and thinking about it more in the nets and actually realized, no, that it is different. And actually, the way I walked off at the Ovalay team will never be beaten for me. As it not beaten?

Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Cannot be topped. and the reason I stopped is that what else was there for me to get excited really excited for and a comeback I think would have I think would have been wrong I think it would have put all kinds of unnecessary pressure on me in one sense

and it would have been exciting if or a little bit I suppose but so if you had received the text that Moeen Alley received at the start of this year from Stokes which I said ashes no you wouldn't have you wouldn't have replied lol you'd have replied no way

absolutely not no no that is you know that is as long past and it was just a strange it was a strange I think I reckon it's two years ago so I reckon it was just a strange and no regrets at all

I can speak to every player who's who's walked away from the game I don't have any regrets do you have I missed it elements of absolutely I have because it is as you as everyone knows you retire it's one of the it's a great privilege

to go and play and battle with your mates playing for England and it's all I ever dreamed about but what I've I think I've retired pretty well for the international game is I've accepted it and of course there's little moments of it

but I've accepted my lot and so no I don't wish I was out there anymore I don't wish I had those horrible nervy feelings or the constant failures brush with a little bit of success so you'll miss if they win this game

and the beer at the end of the change of absolute satisfaction, which I know we'll never get again in our lives in terms of what Michael and I have experienced as curriculish. You don't get that satisfaction. You have to find it a different one. Don't expect it to replace it totally because I don't think you can.

But you played an Essex championship winning science. Yeah, that was brilliant. And one of the reasons I played another year because I thought it was a big... My aim was to play one more year and try and win another trophy with Essex. That was, when I finished, I said I want to play one year,

let's try and win that trophy. because it's a big step off, isn't it? I'm, you know, I was all about cricket, about trying to play, be the best batsman I could become, and best leader I become, all that kind of stuff. And then if I'd have walked off at the Oval's, my last game of cricket, I think I'd have struggled with it. Just, you know, it's a big cliff to fall off.

Different from a broadie, slightly older, a bowler, totally uncertain. I was a bat, it's not physically that hard. So I wanted to go and try and win a trophy. Because I was part of the 17 side, and I played the first seven games, but then I went away to England. And actually, it's the first time I left an Essex dress room after those seven games thinking we're a part of something special now.

We've always, we underachieve for years as a side. And we found a formula, well, Simon Harmon turned up. And we've had a great run. And winning in 19 as a sub was brilliant. And that said, well, I'll play a game. Then COVID got in the way in terms of like changed. I just, I mean, I loved a Bob Willis trophy. Five games a year.

I'll do that for a long time. so that's kind of prolonged it I've been very lucky Anthony McGrath you know you talk about McCullum and Stokes re-evigorating Stuart Balls last 15 months and

the way Mags and Tom Weston Ryan Tender Scott was kind of being able to captain me maybe just being able to go out and just play cricket and just go and it is very different cricket to international cricket it's a huge amount of skill

you play in all kinds of pitches you know good bad brilliant. Every scenario is thrown into the counter cricket. You get the youngsters steaming in or you get really experienced pros. But just the way they've handled me. I've really enjoyed my time there. And we're trying to hunt down Surrey for one

for another trophy. Maybe next year, Alison. That's fine. Not this year. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Bring more gear. Carry more passengers. Face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender.

With seating up to eight, ample cargo space, and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. The Football Daily Podcast has turned its full attention to the international stage. Here is Rapino, and it's scored. With your daily dose of World Cup analysis, debate and news. As we bring you all the action with some of the biggest names in this. game. There's a lot more experience in here than what you think. The team I looked at in front

of me, I was like, yeah, we can win this. Join us for a women's world cup like no other. Listen on BBC Sounds. Now, back to your podcast. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Now, another England captains alongside me who, your circumstances of your retirement, probably a bit different because there's injury involved. But your retirement comes really close to probably your crowning moment, the 2005 ashes. You're a little bit closer to the moment of

greatest success. Alistair's might have been, say, 2010-11 with the bat when England won away in Australia. Yours would be 2005, and not awfully long after that, you've got a cool time. You've got very different reasons, or were they similar reasons to Alistus? No, I mean, it was

208, really, when I gave up the captaincy. I knew I was never going to play for England again. Because my body was knack and my knee. You know, I'd had four knee operations, a real big operation in 2006 called Microfactor, where they drilled into my joint. It was nasty, and I just knew that, you know, I was spending that much time on the physio bed. And as Alistair said, when you can't train and you can't do the things that you could have do before, and Cookie didn't have injuries, but he obviously just lost that kind of, that mojo that you do. I lost it because my body was in bits.

So you still had the drive? We still wanted it, did you? Yeah, but I, even when I was, you know, 2005 around there, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3. I never felt I was going to play until I was 38, 39. You know, I always had interests away from cricket, and I still do. I still have lots of interests away from cricket. So I love cricket, and I love playing it. I never missed the dressing room.

You know, I left the dressing room in 2009. Finally, I left, so, 08, I retired the captain, and he always wasn't going to play for England. I remember in 2009. Strassie was a skis. He ran me up in around April May I can't remember when he says I want you to play some

I can't agree with you. You get some runs might pick you again for the ashes and I just went to dry out of see no no he said no please just try and get some runs and we'd like to have you in the mix for 2009 and I thought I'll give it a go and I'll try and play but it just wasn't there the spark wasn't there

so that's why I retired before the 09 Ashes because I didn't want people to start thinking if I scored 100 for Yorkshire I was going to come back in and so I just decided that that was it you miss it I missed it I missed the game

I miss kind of being around people but I didn't after a while missed being in the dressing room you know I just and I always got told

that is what you would miss the most you know everyone said oh you wait until you leave the dress room and you know I found that buzz

and that energy and that fun factor away from being in a dressing room you know with friends at home and I actually found a great release

to just go back and I love the commentary box I love being around people in cricket but I found it a great release just to go back home to friends that I'd been friends with

from the age of 10 at school. It's in part because your team had also, you know, that high point of 2005, a lot of those guys I suppose, I don't know, I suppose Harmeson was still around a bit, but Hawkins was on his way out. Freddie was playing, yeah.

Yeah, a number of them were still playing. I don't know, everyone's different, aren't it? I mean, you know, Alistair had the best farewell and that's why Stuart, that's a great way to go out. Stuart Broaders has in my opinion got it absolutely spot on he's had a brilliant career

and he would probably have had those kind of thoughts for a while you know you were always talking to close friends about what you can do and what you're going to do next

and also what are you going to do next you know I think as a cricketer I always say to young players it's very important that you know you're understanding sport that you're only going to play for a period you hope to play for a long period but that long period

isn't that long in your life so even if you played for 20 years as a professional from 18 to 38 it's an amazing career but you're still only 38 years of age you know you've got the rest of your life ahead of you so you know if you want to just stay in cricket of course you can do but I think it's so important that sports people realize that there's something else out there rather than the sport and I think those that think purely about the sport

and that's it and there's nothing else you can struggle when you leave because how do you replace that feeling from being out in the middle because you do hear of lots of sports people who actually go searching for that buzz once they finish they go searching for a buzz fortunately I didn't really miss the buzz

you know I've cautioned I missed a cover drive or celebrating a hundred you know that's fantastic feeling you can't really replace that winning the ashes off to 16 years without it yeah it's amazing and honestly you can't nothing can ever get to that level but you know in life you can have great great moments away from your sport you know

You can have other areas of your life that you can get stuck into and the dressing rooms that are great places, great fun places. You can find that in the golf club or even down the local cricket club going to watch on a Saturday afternoon. You can get that same buzz and that same energy. So I just, yeah, I never ever had a period. I had a period when I didn't know what I was going to do. That's a bit confusing because in 2009 I retired.

That's how I was trying to, I guess came to, I was playing at Scarborough and from nowhere I was warming up in the morning. and Agas came and he was driving up somewhere up the coast and he popped in to speak to me and I went hello Jonathan he told me about Test Match Special how you know he'd love to

potentially speak to me about coming to join the Test Match Special team and I was going to wow I was like overawed like I could potentially be joining the Test Match Special team so obviously then I started thinking oh maybe I can go into the commentary box or a bit of radio

I'd got a few business interests that I was always going to kind of get stuck into as well. But I didn't really know what I was going to do. And it was like a year or so, maybe two years actually. I tried a few different things and I came to the commentary box. I went to South Africa on tour. I tried a little bit of TV, a bit

radio, a few little different shows away from cricket. But it was really two or three years later that. I thought, you know what, I really enjoy this. You know, I enjoyed just sitting and watching the game and having an opinion and just calling the ball or having an opinion on certain aspects of the game.

I've really, if you said to me, Did you, have you loved playing as, or commentary? I honestly will say this is getting very close to being the player. I really love being in the commentary box. Well, I, really interesting here, so I will definitely miss the dressing room. Just for the, not saying, but then I won't, I won't seek to try and replace it. You know, I love going in there and messing around. You've got your sheep, aren't you can talk to?

Well, that's, I was going to, just about to go on about the sheep. and I know everyone's sick and tired probably of me talking about the sheep. But the one thing I've been lucky enough with is cricket is such a time baseball isn't it? You know you went away for an ashes you went away for a test match at home

your next seven days are planned for you. A seven days, it's quite a long time isn't it? You turn up your two days training, five day game all sorted for it. When you retire or when you stop playing cricket that's a lot of time to replace, isn't it? And actually because of the farm that time

is there already. I get up and if I'm down the farm and whatever it's 7.30 to 6 o'clock, my whole day is done. And so I'm not worried about trying to feel time. So that for me is a really nice place to me. Yes, I enjoy it.

We know how much everyone's probably bored of me talking about sheep and whatever and sheep dogs. But it's you know, I'm lucky, I'm so lucky that I've got that to be able to. So then I'm not trying to, as Michael said, what am I going to do? I don't know what's the next 10 years of my professional life. And everyone kept telling me, oh, the cycle, you've got to get something else to give you that same drive.

Actually, I've given 17 years, probably more than that, of the drive determination to be the best average top order player I could be. hang on a minute why do I need to have that drive I can do something slightly different and that's for me why I think I've got quite a good headspace about it so you're not an adrenaline junkie

that needs that sort of spark but I think Vaughney said you can't cannot replace that you can never in a million whatever Vaughney and I do for the rest of our life we can't replace what those guys are experiencing but I think the trick is

he's not trying to replace it is except that was your 20 years of living under the massive highs and probably actually a lot more lows and not very much on this middle line which the majority of the kind of people live their professional life and the middle line goes up a little bit

goes down a little bit depending you had a good or a bad day and that's not being patronised but professional sport gives you unbelievable highs 2005 of the ashes Michael Vaugh and that feeling well that image of him

I remember that because, you know, and what he went through is to do it is unbelievable we probably don't remember any of it but, you know,

that high is never repeated you sit in the dressing room after stresses and strains of a five day or a five-day test match or a 25-day series or an ashes

or you cannot replace that feeling taking your boots off looking at your mate on the other end and go, we've been through a lot together in that 25 days. It's been brilliant

and tough and the ultimate satisfaction of winning a series or winning a game you can't, we'll never replace that. What's the bigger high, scoring the 100 from the ranks or being the captain of a winning team? Well, I think you experience the high more for a longer period of being captain.

So yeah, the only time I got ever emotional is when I, when Agers interviewed me at Trembridge when we'd won that series, 3-1. Obviously, one more to go, we end up losing the game here. And, you know, I lost it in my voice a little bit. It's the only time over in terms of like in public because of we were told we're not winning that series and we won it. But the feeling of getting 100 or winning a close game with that spike is unreplaced. What is it for you, Michael? Because you had some terrific innings against Australia in losing causes. Yeah, I mean, I love captaincy.

I really enjoyed just being out there and tactically trying to work out plans and trying to manage people. trying to get people playing better or playing in a different way or being a bit more aggressive or particularly I had a I love captain in Mavericks you know someone like Freddie Flint

I just loved it because he just had this amazing ability to take the game to the opposition and I just wanted you know to watch him basically used to say that come on entertainers on the balcony when you go out to bat your job is to make sure you're entertaining us so if you think you can hit it

give it a right good whack please whack it out of the ground Like Stokes were saying last year. Yeah, I just, I love, you know, Captain in KPI. You know, I got Kev Wright at the best time when he was just starting. I loved it because, I mean, he was a genius. He could do pretty much whatever you told him. You know, if he said to him, take on Murrally, he could take on Murrally. Not many England players could do that.

But, yeah, Captain's, the one thing, when I first tried, I do remember it for the first few years, you start looking at, oh, no, what could I have done differently? And could I've played a bit more? And could I've got a few more runs? And, you know, could I captain Don and maybe done anything? a year or so and could I play another 2030 test to get past 100 so for the first two or three years

after a time I would say was more negative thoughts about what I could have achieved above and beyond what I'd had and now I look back 10 and 15 years after that I think well wait a minute you know I played for England for a long time a captain England for a long time scored a few run scored a few centuries so

now I'm a bit further away I look more at the positive sides of how lucky I was to play for Yorkshire and for England and to travel the world and to get this opportunity. So it's kind of different periods of your retirement that you start looking at it differently. And I now look

back at playing. Purely is a positive sense. Of course, I'd love to have scored a few more runs, but I now look at, you know, I managed to get 1800s, pretty good. I managed to win a few games as captain. I'd have taken that at the start of my career. I'd have taken the captaincy for one test, never mind, 51.

So I think as time kind of goes on, you do look at the game differently and you look at your time playing, differently. I wouldn't swap it from any other era. I really generally feel I came into cricket in the early 90s where it was pretty much an amateur game played in a kind of professional setup. There was all sorts that went on in the county game. It was really week after week. It was sometimes like a stag trip with a bit of cricket thrown in. The cricket kind of got in the way of the stag trips. It was bizarre. But, you know, that was at the start of my career.

And then, you know, further into the 90s, professionalism, training, ice baths, all these kind of different things came into the game, then data, computers. I remember in the 90s, you really had to, if you could find a clip of you batting to look at the way you were playing, well, you couldn't find one. Whereas now everything's on a computer. Whether there's too much of that, I'm not too sure. But through the time of the 90s where we didn't have any of that, then it arrived, then data came into the game and a bit more professionalism.

And I've always felt there's a real fine balance. That's why I think this team are getting absolutely spot on with their method is that they are a bit casual. They do go and play golf, but I get why they're doing this. I get the mentality of what they're trying to achieve. And I think they have stripped back a lot of the data that was here for quite a while. And they're just saying, we just play cricket.

And we play cricket with a bit of fun, a bit of aggression. We play this brand of cricket. We're sticking to it. And I can fully understand what they're trying to achieve. And whether that gets some success going forward, it's certainly got a lot more eyeballs. watching the game, by the way, that they've played in the last 18 months, which is great. Let's see if it can have that next step in terms of winning a big, big moment in India

or a big Ashish series in two and a half years time. Do you think it made it a little harder for people in your era? Because you're sort of described, but not your era, but the one you described in the 90s when you say, you know, a bit of an extended stag trip. To leave that fund, and there's a massive handbrake turn into reality, isn't they? Because in those days, there was less media, so there were fewer opportunities. for people to work in that. There are probably fewer coaching opportunities as well

with the proliferation of leagues that we have now, fewer commercial opportunities generally. So, you know, find a lot of players were on that merry-go-round, on all that camaraderie, and as cookies described, you know, missing the dressing room. But then it's all, vun, it's over.

Whereas now, you know, what cookies describing, and you as well, is a lot of hard work goes into it. It has a lot of data. There's a lot of concern. turn over what you're doing. And if you're somebody who's devoted their life to batting, I remember talking to Graham Fowler about this. And he said, he reckoned that if he was really honest with himself, if he took 100 days of his professional career, on average, he'd probably be

happy with about eight of them. Half of them, he was fielding. And, you know, how much could he really do to affect it? He didn't bowl. And then when he batted, if he got 100, he was happy. If he got 30 or 40, he wasn't happy. And of course, you're not happy if you're getting out and single figure scores. So day after day you're sort of unhappy and what sustained him is the camaraderie, the fun, what have you. But now

England team sort of getting back that. I reckon back then I remember when I first started counting cricket we basically came back to York from March the 1st. You know that was when you checked back in. So you were off from the end of September? Yeah and I was

lucky I was on England on 19 tours or eight tours but you know from September December 20th, whenever, there was always an end of season trip. There was always a PCA awards, and once the PCA awards were done and dusted by from the end of September of the October, you just went away and, you know, we're back to wherever you were living and you'd train with your county. We'd have Tuesday night, Thursday night training sessions at Yorkshire in the winter, carrying logs around the streets of headingly up to the university, but at the top of the hill there.

I always remember it in groups of four carrying logs and then doing the training. It's a bit like army training. on Tuesday and Thursday, on Saturday mornings, but we officially didn't kind of clock until March the 1st. It was a seven-month contract. So you weren't contracted for the whole of the winter. You kind of just turned up and got a few quid for a bit of travel up from Sheffield, where I was living, to Leeds.

But, you know, so back in those days, a lot of players had jobs in the winter. Remember that bit? We're talking early 90s? Yeah, early 90s. Definitely, some of the players would have a job or two in the winter. And then I always remember around January, February, Yorkshire. would pick their pre-season trip, which was always a great trip to get on,

because we used to go to Anguila, Antigua, Cape Towns, Zimbabwe, you know, Bullowayor, you name it. It was Philip Sharp, the old Yorkshire play. He ran the pre-season tours. And it was like a big, big moment. I remember I was at 18. I got picked on my first trip. I think it was to Anguila.

Oh, what a trip. We only played two games. Fantastic couple of weeks in Anguiland. We were staying, well, it was a very, very strange hotel, but very nice. I wonder why our Essex trips are so good now, with Mags lead. Oh, fantastic. What I, just there, I love how you want to play,

you love playing in the era you played in. So I've only spoke really highly of his era. I wouldn't swap my era either at all. Like, we've had, there's been elements of, very different, slightly different. Like, I started in 2003, where you check scores on CFACs. And, you know, you could say you got 40 when really you got 25. You know, how do you get out? Oh, I was unlucky.

But now, like, Canna cricket, there's live streams. I think that's, I mean, it's brilliant. But, again, the pressure that puts on every young batsman knowing that there is zero hiding place now. Do they go back and check out the highlights and see how? I'm sure they do. I'm sure. But they're more used to, I suppose, more used to it because they're used to all the social media stuff they've been brought up. I've gone through.

My career's been slightly unprofessional. the beginning but probably a lot more professional than it was when you started to a real professional bit of England and obviously now Essex just going back probably another generation yes our fitness results are really good but we really appreciate how lucky we are Essex to to play the game and it is old school a bit more old school and that's probably why I've still enjoyed playing what do you think the future holds for cricket is because you've described two sort of ways of being there and now we've got

a proliferation in T20 leagues you're going to be sharing a lot of different changing rooms aren't you? Josh Butler talking about maybe signing a big contract that might see him play he could be playing in the Caribbean, South Africa, India

Australia, who knows? I think Dan it, I think cricket I don't think we're at that stage yet for those contracts, they might come in the next year or two, we'll have to wait and see but I think cricket will end up being like football where your big contract in terms of finance might come from a franchise Rajasthan or a Mumbai

but like football you'll have to wear your three lines you'll have to represent your country if you want the commercial element to be a part of you and for you to have a real legacy I think you're going to have to do your work in the international arena I find that sad I know that's the way the game's going and there's nothing that I don't think you can do really unless the ICCC unbelievably subsidised test cricket

you know, to make it, to match those things because their players are always going, like, because, A, of probably the style of cricket I played, but winning with your real true mates in a side which, you know, you're talking about captaincy, you said you love capturing Mavericks. I love building, I love the idea of building a team, how I wanted my team to operate as a, as a group of us, from management to players, you know, how we, you know, mix with the public and how I expected my team to to behave and I enjoyed that thing and as well as trying to you know improve I've got young Ben Stokes young Josh Butler trying to help them of course that's that kind of star as well but I really try trying to mould a team that's what kind of

I like but you know I find it very different I can't quite get my head around it you just go and play different all these different leagues and brilliant you get financially brilliantly rewarded for it but I've been my career about satisfaction of about the career I've had. And the moments I remember is winning with the people closest to you. Whether it was 2019, when we sat at Taunton,

that group of players, as that squad of Essex players winning the Canton Championship, you know, only probably 60 people really cared in one sense. But, you know, but for those group of 20 players and support staff,

it meant the world to us. And we sat there and that coach journey home from Taunton to Cheltsford, I will never forget. And that's what I really, remember but you go to a franchise league and you win brilliant you win the trophy but you're winning with people you're only going to be friends really with for three weeks and that's what i can't get around

and that's that's what's happening and it's a fair play to everyone but i don't know whether i would get as much motivation to do that as i would from winning with players that i've that i've that i've grown up playing with and done and we've gone on that transition as a side from being not a good side to a winning side or vice of it's one of the remarkable things about the county championship i mean you play so many games really 14 games four day games i mean and i've been there when a few teams have won county championships when you won at taunton i remember commentating that game i could see how much it meant to your team i was there at lords when middlesex beat yorkshire in that run chase and denied somerset and in the tavern afterwards i mean i

just never forget seeing ollie rayner with his kit still on pulling the pints for everybody there and the glee i mean there's it's a marathon isn't it it's an absolute marathon and it's a side which almost doesn't collapse and it doesn't hit the wall at the side wins the league yeah you don't often blow the the league i'm category it's about the almost the last man stand last team standing in that sense of you start in april and you finish in the end of september to try and win you know a trophy which isn't the financially the biggest trophy do you know what i mean in terms of t20 all that kind of stuff but it it meant so much to win 2019 for me for me person and that's it's strange

well I love that Yorkshire we won the league in 2000 or two or one and I I would mean 05 is obviously whatever but to win the character champion Yorkshire not won the county championship for god knows how many years before that I remember winning it at Scarborough

celebrating on the balcony with the trophy probably six or seven thousand Yorkies in there celebrating this win it was an incredible moment you know it's it's the hardest trophy to win that county championship without any question You won it in between Sari won in 99, 2000, 2002, and you went it in the middle. Yeah, so we had, you know, Sackling around that time.

So there was something, what it means, there were some very good teams around you. So to win that, must have felt like an incredible achievement as well. Yeah, and it's funny because, you know, when you say, you know, you're friends in cricket, of course, the England team that I had and was involved, I'm good friends with lots of them, but, you know, the players like Anthony McGrath, I came up through Yorkshire, Matthew Wood, and Gavin Hamilton, and players that I came through kind of the academy and through the

kind of second 11 and straight into the first team, you know, they're the kind of people that you remember Richard Blakey have played so much cricket with Peter Hartley who's now an umpire they kind of took me under their wing when I came into the first team. Martin Moxon who was my captain, David Byers, all these kind of people that

people don't know too much about but they created the foundation for me as a player and about Darren Lehman. Darren Lehman when he came as overseas and Michael Bevan just brought an Aussie mentality into this county dressing room. They trained hard, they played aggressively, they spoke about hitting the ball and scoring.

I remember Daryl Neiman after one innings with me, he said, mate, could I give you some advice? I went, yeah, yeah, what should I? Look to score, pal. I said, well, what do you mean? You said, well, you're a good player, look to score. You don't have to just defend.

You know, you can put a bit of pressure on the bars. I went, I'll try that in the next thing. Before you know it, I started to score a bit quicker. And that was just by one conversation with Darren. do you think right because we could talk so i could talk forever about like the canning cricket and like the four-day stuff in particular and the the memories of it is it's just we love it so much that we could talk about it but actually it's not that as special as we think it is it's a really good question because i think there is something in it because these are entities that have been

around a long long time so they have a continuum you know there are people when you arrived as a young man at essex who would have been there near keith fletcher who hangs around he's He's been there forever, and he was there forever before, and he's linked to people who go all the way back in the past, and the fans that are there, some of them are 20, some of them are 92, and they're all connected to this entity. The question is, you know, do the other entities have that same pulling power, you know? I'm just asking that, just putting it out there for a competition like the 100, does it mean as much for Samet Patel to win with the Trent Rockets as it means to win with Nottinghamshire? well i mean from you know from what i thought just because trent like for samut who's been at not since 2002 he had a form friendship with some of those players who were still there for years which you can't just build in in four weeks that's what i think this is the tms podcast from bbc radio

five live 72 plus on the football daily podcast with aran paul yes the 72 plus is back on the football Daily podcast as we see the return of the new EFL football season. Join me and Joby McIner. You get the tap on the shoulder right, go warm up. And I'm thinking, oh, Katha, come on, man. I think we're like three or four and they're down at this point. And a host of guests every Friday afternoon as we turn the spotlight on the Football League.

Who do you sign? Jan Venigo of Hesseling. We couldn't get it on the back of a shirt. If your chairman put letters up to four pound a letter, didn't he? He did. From the championship to League 2 and the National. National Leagues will bring you the biggest names, the biggest interviews and the biggest stories across the football pyramid. 72 plus on the Football Daily podcast. Listen and subscribe on BBC Sounds.