Test Match Special - Cook's recipe for success in India

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

Daniel Norcross talks to Alastair Cook about what it takes to play cricket in India. Cook captained England to a test series victory in India in 2012, which is still the last time a visiting team won a test series there. Alastair talks about what England do differently to other nations visiting India, where Alastair ranks India as the toughest place to go, and being in a hotel overlooking the Himalayas with 2000 waiting outside for the team.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome for the TestMat Special podcast. I'm Daniel Norcross. England's men are trying to win a test series in India, arguably one of the toughest assignments in world cricket.

Unique conditions, formidable opponents. Batting in India is like no other place on earth. So who better to ask about how you go about such a tough assignment than Sir Alastair? A man who's played 13 tests there, scored 500s in India, averages over 50. People seem to struggle with India, Alistair, you relish it. I'm not sure I relish it, but I think fundamentally, when they take a nice, slow wicket, they take out one of my main ways of getting out, which is nicked off. It's probably wire squad runs. It's also the first place you played.

It is actually, yeah. Well, let's start with that, because your introduction into test cricket is an extraordinary one. You're in the Caribbean, and you're flown, which to the Caribbean is the other side of the world. to India at very short notice, go straight into a test match. How much did you know what to expect about India when he got there? Well, yeah, I mean, flying, there's not many direct flights from Antigua to Nagpur, I can assure you. So it was an Antigua to Gatwick crossover and Heathrow to Mumbai, Mumbai to Nagport. 36 hours flight with a grumpy Lancasterian.

It was, do you know what, right? This is playing in that game, obviously for me, great. to make your debut in terms of expectation zero you can't go to india never batted there before you know in a game um and score runs against that bowling attack or kumbla and harbourjan but actually you know all the like the stuff which happens behind the scenes you know my a tour was to shalanka in 2004 before that goochie had sent me out to the mumbai spin camp for 10 days with me like a couple of young essex lads where you just played face spin

Bangladesh on the 19 tour of World Cups actually I actually played quite a lot in the subcontinent before then and it's a really good place to bat you know all the stuff

to build up of it I think it's the because we were told we can't play spin like the Indians can play spin or the subcontinent teams play spin because they pay very differently

to what kind of I suppose we do because most of time spin is an afterthought for our you know for our teams is all about seam and quite right you're having a Tifflex ball in April you ain't going to pull much spin

I can tell you that but fundamentally actually if you've got some really good basics against spin it's a lovely place about and when I mean basics it's the game has changed this England side

play a very different way to how I approach to play and spin and actually looking now if I could do some of the stuff they do it would have helped me a lot you know the reverse suite if i could have played the reverse suite with that control and played at the right time it changes how you play without a doubt it changes a horrible thing as a captain when a person reverse suites because you can't cover both sides to the wicket but

fundamentally my game was based on defence your height does that make a difference i mean when we think of great players of spinning in india often the people like senorovaska gundapha vishwaner satchintendalka they're not really tall people But your method, did that involve you making your height an advantage? So I actually wasn't describe myself a great player of spin. I was a very efficient player of spin. I think there's a difference. I never dominated spin.

I think to be a great bear of spin, I think you've got to have the ability to dominate. I just soaked up a lot of pressure and batted a long period of time. I actually had a very good record against spin. But I didn't dominate spin. My game was basically to say the height was irrelevant in one sense, in my opinion. I was very comfortable once I'd worked it out, defending against spin. If you can defend against spin, it means you can attack on your terms, and it means that the four men round the bat in general I wasn't that bothered about.

And defence against spin has been able to pick length very quickly, because you don't want to get caught in no man's land. You're either defending back or you're defending forward. If you're caught half and half, that is when the majority of those bat pads are brought in. I think I'll go back to Medabad. where in a 2012 series, that first game, that first game we got bought, well, we're 90 off of seven, I think. And quite a lot of our dismissals were attacking shots

because players weren't comfortable against a spin. And there's a stat that we, that we were defending balls in the danger zone. When I'm in danger zone, there's this, obviously one of the stat things that Nathan Lehman, the danger zone was neither forward nor back. Something like we're defending those balls 35% of the time. So we were getting it wrong. They were doing us in length, 35% of the time. So that's, made that, was that two times and over maybe?

And that's high risk. It's not like they were doing us. So a drive it would be getting that down to like 6%. You know, defend, it doesn't mean you get out, but it means that you're bringing the balls in. And so that was our aim. It's either defending right out there in front getting really full or defending really far back. And actually, we had net sessions, you know, over a period of time. I actually think we toured Bangladesh in 2010.

We toured Sri Lanka before that, obviously 2012 India, and I'm sure Abu Dhabi in between there. So this over a long period of time, these stats as well as a medabag stat where, you know, it was all about this. We're in next sessions where you weren't allowed to come forward to defend. You weren't allowed to go back to defend. And actually, I know it wasn't from very long,

but it was show what you could do, you know, as your game. Now, this is so different to how a baby. Ben Stokes side will go out, well, the defence is kind of irrelevant. But actually, they still will have to defend certain balls. But that's how we learn how to play. And the improvement in all our games, you know, through Andrew Flowers' method and through like a gradual increase of playing was actually superb. So if you can feel comfortable, I say, defending against being,

because you go to a net and you say, how are you going to play against spit, how are you going to play against his left arm are going to be really positive. And then the second ball of a net, you run down and you whack him out of the top. brilliant inconsequential great shot we could all do it but most players can do it problem is you ain't running down second ball in the game if you are three minutes before lunch or five 20 minutes before the end of play you've just gone in so test cricket forces you at certain times to play so I'm pretty sure the England this England team about to this tour will there'll be times where they will have to defend as well as just attack

So these fundamentals will hold them in good stead But I'm sure I get proven totally wrong And someone will go and black 170 of 64 balls And not play one defence of Sean Now what strikes me about India Having been there and commentated from there Is that it is a place of extraordinary variety I've seen where pitches and grounds can change

At the behest of the Indian authorities overnight So instead of having the flat pitch you might get the spinning pitch you might have to deal with reverse swing is that one of the toughest aspects of an Indian tour that there is so much variety that you have to be so adaptable

I think the toughest part of the Indian tour is the all encompassing nature of India I think is what makes it so hard yes your challenge as a batsman and as a bowler and as a side in so many different ways which you're right with terms of

terms of what you said whether the pitch changes or whatever the pitch changes throughout the game most of the time and you are tested in certain ways and there's certain times where batting in the subcontinent is just the best place to bat. As I said, Knicking off is pretty much out of the game sometimes because it's so slow and sometimes it doesn't turn a huge amount.

Actually, my Nagpur debut, it didn't turn a huge amount. See, there you go in a preconceived idea of it ragging or actually it didn't rag. And it was a nice place to bat. Yes, it's a different way of batting because it was, it's a cam, be quite turd and can be quite

slow. But if you can get into that rhythm or batting there, it's a lovely place to bat and that's probably why my record is okay because actually

getting the first 30 balls, everything seems to happen so fast, so quickly that you're so indecisive because actually most middle order players

and most openness if you're playing spin normally you're on 30 or 40 when you go in it, so English players because that's you normally got Barajer seam

when the last resort was bowl spin, but actually in the subcontinent, the first resort spin. So you can often get in after losing two wickets. You're there first ball against spin and everything seems to happen so fast. But actually playing spin,

you need to be so quick on your feet, so decisive, even though the ball's slow. It's almost like almost the opposite to what you expect. It seems to me, though, that they are challenges that English county cricket

doesn't necessarily prepare you for. I think back to the 2016 tour. and Ben Duckett who has now made a great comeback in the England side but was faced with opening the batting against offspin coming round the wicket to him

with the new ball which he'd never have faced before is part of the problem with India that you build up that terror of the otherness the newness you know the one of the big things about playing cricket subcontinent

or playing at the highest level is kind of the difference of that you're saying you know Ben Duckett was picked on that tool and I was part of that selection meeting as captain he plays spin well he played it differently and he played aggressively and he will take them on

and that's how he played spin but he never he didn't have a defensive game to get him in to be able to do that and it was just a real probably eye open for him where if you'd have said in 2016 oh a really good player of spin as we all thought he was so only when you actually get tested

to see how good archery are you and to his absolute credit he's gone away and he has now worked out his method of playing spin yes there is a lot more attacking shots and he's gone probably back to how you're suited but his defence is better

against it he defends less but he's worked out that you cannot just you know you can't just sweep every ball you know he's worked out a way if it is turning that he doesn't he can he can stay a little bit more on the stunts if it's not turning he stays leg side of it to keep his pad out of the way

And until you experience it, until you experience the lows, you think, oh, I'll be fine. You don't know what the challenge is that you have to overcome. And I think that's what Indian or subcontinent cricket does. It throws you up challenges which you're not actually expecting before. Does it also, though, really make the very greatest players seem even greater? The reason I said that is because you have played in India, 2006, 2008, 2012, 2016, under KP's captaincy, under Andrew Flintoff's captaincy, your own captaincy.

And you've played some great players there. I think of KP and I think of Jimmy Anderson. Did you see them sort of grow on the job and get better through playing there? I think of Anderson particularly towards the latter period that you were playing with him, sort of mastering conditions that might not have been naturally suited to him. Absolutely. I think that is what test cricket does or cricket actually does compare to almost any other sport is home advantage or way advantage. The conditions you play as a as a cricketer are so different from different parts of the world. And actually Jimmy's ability to survive in the subcontinent conditions come from where he, you know,

bowling on a northern wicket up north and club cricket where you just got to not hit an area but basically hit. an area. I don't mean that derog literally there's a great skill in that but allowing the pitch to do it and the swing to do it. To be able to their master reverse swing or be able to hold your own when it's not in your favour is what mate has made Jimmy the bowler he is like how many times do we hear what he's only good in England when he swings at the start of his career and actually fundamentally that was right but for the last well last 10 years since already 2010 11 which is now 13 years ago or 14 years ago

you couldn't say that he's mastered how to survive in different conditions and you know like go back to Kolkutter it was we needed people to be able to reverse

swing the ball well this is back in 2012 it was you know we played in Mumbai and he ragged a week later it was wasn't ragging but it was going to reverse

and he was ability to survive in Mumbai and do a job not you know support Monty and swanee but when it was his time to strike he was good enough to do it and that's just mastering his skills and that's what cricket is such a great game the opportunity you have to master different skills and need it at different times and know when to do it and that's like you know like batting the difference of batting at a cloudy morning at lords with the floodlights on

the technique to survive to walking out on an absolute ragger in Mumbai and scoring runs is so different and that's what gets the players going. That's what used to excite me. Can you cope with that? And that's why you're more likely to be able to cope with lords because that's what you're growing up with. But if you can cope with the other conditions, you know you are a more rounded player. Now, how do you work out what a pitch is going to do in India more than anywhere else? Because obviously you've got your, you know what to expect in English conditions.

You've seen it loads and loads of times. In India the pitch can do anything. and that can make a massive difference to your team selection, whether you go in with three seamers, two seamers, one. Who knows, even none one day. How do you get that knowledge? What do you do? Do you chat with the ground staff?

Do you chat with Sunil Gavisker? Is he going to help you? What do you do? Local knowledge is absolutely. And you can trust it. Well, that's what you do need to have local knowledge in your side. I think is like, you know, hence, you know, there's no doubt about, Well, Mushy was around for the England team,

Mushtec Ahmed, his input in those kind of stuff was invaluable because, you know, looking at the wicket, we'll think it'll do this. And you're like, I'm trying to think an example. Well, let's move on by 2012. We all knew it's going to turn and bounce. And it did. Nagpur, we thought a result wicket looked at the,

go, cool, this is going to be, this is going to turn. Didn't turn, didn't do anything. So, um, not the, that affected selection, but they do play differently. And I certainly now India have recently, obviously played on some absolute, you know, some real tough wickets.

But I think local knowledge in terms of trying to get on the front foot, how are you going to play? Certainly is a batter. Like the difference in the grounds in India are so different. The Red Soil, the bounce in Mumbai to say, Kolkata where it skids on a bit more. and actually not getting caught out but you don't want to find this out on day two

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Now, often we compare India with Australia in terms of tours, in terms of toughness. And I've experienced the oddness of an Australian tour. aware the entirety of Australia that I mean the journalists I mean the people who stamp your ticket when you come off the plane everybody is trying to make your life as uncomfortable as possible and I'm just a commentator if you're a player that's that's the experience of Australia isn't it that antagonism is it is that similar in India or is it a different kind of intensity that you get there certainly not that antagonism I mean, in India is most, it's like love.

I mean, the, the love of cricket, you just, until you've experienced it and the, you've been out there, if you love cricket, you've got to go on an Indian tour at some stage, just because you can't, you can't actually kind of describe their passion for it, or their enthusiasm, or their genuine love for the game. And that's, and that's almost every single. person. So the Indian tool is very different to the Australian tool. You're not going to get shouted at with abuse walking down the street like you might do in Australia. That has happened

and we all know that happened in that in a nice way, but that kind of stuff, that kind of up front that you might, you're just going to get swamped in India. You get swamped by every single person wanting a piece of you. I mean, that's probably a huge credit to credit to those Indian players who have to cope with that 24-7, 365 days a year when a a year and having to cope under that pressure. It is an all-encompassing tour as a player. If you get behind, it's very tough because there is zero escape.

You know, even if you say, I'm going to go and play golf, there'll be, you know, that four hours, everybody will know who you are on that course before you know it. And I think, I was an example. We were in Dalmat Shala once. And Trevor Penny was the fielding coach for India.

And this is in the one day tour, Dama side, beautiful, beautiful. the Himalayas. He said, what you must do is go to his restaurant, have pizza and have a corona and watch the sunset over the Himalayas. Do you know what? I thought that was a lovely old day. So me, Belly, I think it was Chris Wilkes from Ravi. So no, not a big guns or anything like that, a gun there. We went there, drove the half an hour. When we got there, they just knew we were coming. I don't quite not. When I say there was 600 people outside the restaurant, there was 600 people outside there, there was that many, that we ended up.

eating in a bedroom, locked, no view of any Himalayas, more view of some dusty Y fronts, eating our pizza and having a croina. And then by the time we left the restaurant, it was absolutely, they'd shut the restaurant downstairs. There was no one else in it apart from fans, not eating, just trying to get a glimpse. And there was 2,000 people outside to get the cab. And you think I'm making it, I promise you we're not making,

I've got a video somewhere on some eye cloud somewhere, but it was the most extraordinary thing. It was fun. It wasn't dangerous or anything. It just shows how much love they have for the game. And it's a very special place to play cricket. Very special place. England have a curiously not a bad record, actually,

in the modern era in India. If you think how few teams have managed to win matches, you've been involved in a drawn series, a narrowly lost series in 2008, which was a series of only two games. You've won a series. 2016 will gloss over but England won in Chennai

the last time they were there so England have had some success out there what is it that England tend to do differently from basically all comers because no one else apart I mean Australia has won a couple of games in the last 10 years but no one else has beaten India since you won in 2012

I don't know I don't know why maybe we're not as bad at playing a spin as people right amount of us. Maybe our spinners aren't as bad as everyone says when you compare them. So I couldn't tell you why we do we play slightly more on the subcontinent compared to other sides

compared to New Zealand or Australia or South Africa, I don't know. But also is there a way in which the fact that the crowd loves its cricket so much but can also be silenced. You can't silence an Australian crowd except Melbourne. Well, we can clear them out of stadiums.

You did in 2010. But you know, you watch an Indian crowd and if an Indian loses a wicket, you don't hear a thing. If an Englishman scores a fall, you tend not to hear a thing. Can that actually give you confidence when you're out there thinking, you know, we can get in control here. We can take control. I don't think that has ever crossed my mind. I mean, I've played in some games on India where I was, I think it was ranchies. Ranch is that Donny's home ground?

They hadn't had a one day ever, and we played there when he was captain. And you could not hear the, I was at first slip, Treters is the second step. You could not hear each other speak. It was that loud. It was incredible, and it wasn't an atmosphere. It was just noise. There is that noise. It is just, you know, you have a massive headache when you play.

I mean, I haven't been to an IPL game. I'd like to experience that just to see like the game that it must be not like that but on steroids kind of the noise the one thing I think you can do in India and I have said this a couple of times

if you can put them under pressure because they're so unused to it in their conditions and what they have to go through as players constantly in their home conditions in terms of the fans and the enthusiasm and all that stuff that

how they did, I don't know if that is a factor, but if you can put them under pressure, they don't often respond that well to just because they're often in front of the game so much. They are so well suited to play in these conditions. They've got a really rounded side. Every side I've kind of played against, you know, they've got every option covered. You know, there's sides where we think, oh, we need to play, we play three seamers and two spinners. And there's other times where we play like two seamers and two spinners. And we feel, we always feel slightly unbalanced.

Even when we won, you like, it was, I mean, India always seemed to have two out-and-out quick bowlers and three spinning options. They got, they do seem to have everything always cover. Now, where the spinning options are whoever they pick, they do seem to cover their bases better than at the other side. And which seems strange because actually, why should they like seem to better do it better better than everyone else, but they do do that. And is that sort of a fundamental

built-in disadvantage for sides at Tour India? Because you think of South Africa, you think of Australia, think of England, New Zealand. These are teams that aren't going to play two spinners. When you go to India, it's a prerequisite to play at least two. I didn't want of my games.

Well, you didn't know. And you lost. But that means per force that there's going to be an inexperienced bowler. bowling in a cauldron situation against players who play spin really well is that sort of

like at the very core of the built-in disadvantage that you have I'd never thought about it like that and actually it's a really good point because actually maybe that's maybe that's why if you can play well in India and as a test

as a test player the confidence that gives you or the if you play well there you tend to play well there you tend to play pretty well in other conditions because because of that. So like if say you're an inexperienced spinner and it's a turning wicket, you've got to deliver. There's no hiding place. Even as there's two of you.

And I, you know, like, you know, Swanee's great point. If it's a spinning wicket, certainly in England, there's only ever one spinner has to bowl them out. He has to take the wicket. On a green seamer, there's, there's often three or four seamers bowling. And actually, so between them, they should be able to mum. themselves to get 10 wickets. So the pressure was spinner to do that. So whether it's, you know,

the first inning was where they're expected just not miss length and just bold tidily and not go for any run, say on a traditional Indian wicket where it's not turning to the second innings where they're just expected the ball and am out. And as you said, you've got one, you know, other other spinner who hasn't played probably played that much. So you go back to 2012, actually we didn't because we had Monty and Swanee and hence we won.

So actually coming up on this series now, like there's, Huge pressure. So if you can come through that and deliver, geez, if you, under that kind of, you think, well, shall I can play this game? And that just must flow into your confidence for other games. And that must almost make another pressure for a captain, especially an English captain, because you don't have a lot of experience, but you don't have a lot of requirement to captain spinners in England a lot of the time. So does that mean you've got to adapt your captain. captaincy style, often to guys who are inexperienced in test cricket, in circumstances that neither of you are used to. Yeah, I mean, how often does a spinner open the bowl in England? Well, once. I remember it once, I think. If you took light out of it, I think Swanee, was it Devon Smithy.

He opened the bowling. Because he kept on getting him out. He kept getting him out. And then he opened the bowling. Straussie is trying to be inventive, inventive, and he bowled him. And, you know, I don't think he did get him out. But all he did is made Jimmy Anderson very great. because he's like, well, hang on a minute.

I'm in England with a Duke's ball and we're bowling spin. And actually, give me out a point, a pretty good point because, but yeah, you are as a captain, how often are you throwing a ball to spinner in the fourth over or even opening the bowling spin, and maybe if you go back to Medabad, probably that's why we played three spinners because a three seamers, because kind of, it's comfortable first game as captain, if it doesn't quite go right, you can go back to holding and end up with a seamer, which you're so used to. to doing on a flat wicket. So it's a really good point, actually, you make.

And again, we're just talking about the adaptability, the change that you have to make. You know, you're talking about playing in India, batting in India, bowling in India, coping with the external stuff in India. There's a lot of things thrown at you in a small space of time. And that probably just sums up why the Indian challenge is so different and so tough. And you say you go to, oh, well, same love in Pakistan for cricket. Well, there is, but it's a very different thing. Same as Sri Lanka.

There's still that love, but it's not the same, whether it's just because there's so many people in India. There's so much bigger in those places. That's why all these kind of questions and challenges you have as a player are seen too magnified. And that's maybe one of the big differences are going there. And why going there, winning or doing well is actually, yeah, it's a pretty good feather in your camp. Well, it's a place where England have conceded 700 odd at Chennai was it when Karen Neer got a triple hundred

so you've got to be prepared to be out in the field for upwards of two days. Do you know about that game? Tell us. I dropped that bloke. Oh no. On how many? I mean, not that this might be a stat in Test cricket

I think it might be one of the most expensive drops in Test cricket because he wasn't 30 and so I know it's not the most because someone dropped Gucci. Kieran Morey dropped Gooch, yeah. I'm going to say 30. Yeah. So he added 300.

A Karenair only added, only added 270 in that game. Someone else really got the runs, Cookie. It was a flat deck. There's something else might have got the runs, but he was their last recognised batsman at 6th. And actually, do you know what? I can say it's because Grey Nichols always used to sponsor one player of the opposition every time.

And they never scored runs. And I thought, do you know what, this is brilliant. And he hadn't scored very many runs in that series. and I thought the grey nichols thing has happened again and then he went and gone and got three hundred I mean I did drop him on 270 and just to make that as worse I was the bloke and misfielded he was on two nine nine to get three hundred as well it wasn't the reason why I then gave up the captaincy

and never played again no but that is part of the challenge so isn't it I mean when I think looking at England pink ball testing it as armad of bad balls ragging Aksha Patel's bowling him out in 30 over and then you can play another test match and you can be out there for 210 overs. So you've got to prepare yourself for the game going at breakneck speed and for you

actually sitting around they're just trying to keep concentrating. I don't know how you do that. Well clearly I didn't because it's all very good saying we should have done but absolutely right. I mean it's you know a test match in England most of the time it's fairly

I don't want to say fairly similar but it is like you're right you can have some real change of conditions from pitch to pitch in India so lastly

everywhere in the world India where do you put it on the relish scale can't wait to go out there and play and where do you put it on the tough scale I think as an Englishman

Australia away as a tour is it's a tough place I think I've played 20 test matches out there and lost I'm going to say 15 of them so I think that I think that is a very very hard I think that's a harder place to play why do you think that is don't know just I think I just think this whether it's the the effect of the effect of the whole country being the whole country going with it the whole country in India aren't against you you. They actually, they love you. They love you and they love the enthusiasm where they're not quite the same with Australia. You know, they're not, as I say, it's just different. I think Australia ranks as the hardest place to go and win, but I think India

offers you different challenges than what you've got experienced. If you can conquer all those and deliver consistently over it, I think you'll, you will, you'll become a plan. Well, Alice, you certainly did manage to conquer those challenges. Thank you for joining us. on the TMS podcast. There will be regular podcasts throughout the series with Jonathan Agney, Phil Tufnell,

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