Test Match Special - CWC 3 days to go: Michael Vaughan meets Eoin Morgan

Episode Date: May 27, 2019

Eoin Morgan opens up to Michael Vaughan about how he and England turned their ODI form round, from the ‘humiliation’ of England’s defeat to Bangladesh in 2015, to becoming favourites at a home World Cup. Morgan tells how he was jealous of the style of cricket that New Zealand were playing four years ago, and how he wrote in his diary during the last World Cup about the need for change in English cricket. Don’t forget, there’s a new episode available every day throughout the tournament, so make sure you subscribe via BBC Sounds or your usual podcast app.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Available every day. the Cricket World Cup. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

There's a mix-up. Oh, there could be a run-out. There will be a run-out. It's a tie. Australia is in the final. Kevin O'Brien from nowhere has scored the fastest hundred in World Cup history. That's it. The West Indies have retained the title. And India have caused one of the greatest upsets in the history of all sports. Australia have emphatically won their fifth World Cup by seven wickets. Hello, Michael Vaughan here. We've got something special for you on the podcast today.

Last week, I went to see Owen Morgan. It was fascinating to meet the England one-day captain, someone that I think I know, but I learnt a great deal more about over the course of 30 minutes. He spoke in depth about just how bad things got the last World Cup when he'd just been appointed to captain, and how writing a diary helps him change things. He talks about why he didn't see himself as a captain,

why he's the luckiest man in the world, and I felt that he could well get dropped as captain when he decided not to tour Bangladesh three years ago. Don't forget there will be a new podcast every day on this feed throughout the World Cup, so make sure you're subscribed via BBC Sounds or your usual podcast app. There will be a tough as a Vaughnshaw on here tomorrow looking ahead to the tournament.

Anyway, here he is England's captain, Owen Morgan. From BBC Radio 5 Live, this is the TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup. Owen, thanks for joining us. Let's go back four years. Let's start your journey on this cycle to leading England in this home World Cup. It really started at the end of that poor performance in Australia. Just go back to that day, that moment in Adelaide when you lose against Bangladesh, you know you kicked out of the World Cup.

Where was your mind? It wasn't in a good space. Being knocked out of any World Cup, regardless of the stage of what you're not. when you're knocked out is difficult to take. I think given the manner that we were knocked out and made it that much more difficult. We were knocked out of the World Cup and humiliated and it's not nice when that happens

or you are a part of that. So there are certainly two games that stand out for me in that World Cup that almost confirmed that we were underprepared and just so far off the mark. The two games, one was at Wellington against New Zealand. We got balled out for 123 and New Zealand knocked it off in 12 overs. Absolutely humiliating.

And when you look at the opposition that a beating, it's almost the other end of the scale. It's having quality players, having a team play as a team. And they were just prepared extremely well in the way that they carried themselves and performed as a unit. So that was the first one. And the second sort of moment for me, I'll never forget it, was that game against Bangladesh.

We were chasing 275. And in a chase, we were chasing 275, we were more than capable of chasing it down. It was a good wicket in Adelaide against Bangladesh, who we played previously in series and beaten. But when it came to every crunch moment in that chase, we fell short. And that's a nice microscure.

into seeing either what the character, the side is like, or how capable you are, is when you're put under most pressure, and we crumbled. When was the moment where you as a captain realised the clarity for the direction the team needed to take? Clearly, in Australia, in the last week, and three or four previous World Cups, England haven't played the right way, probably didn't pick the right type of player.

When was that one moment when you sat down as the England captain thought, and thought, enough's enough? I think being allowed the opportunity to continue the captain aside allowed me to reaffirm ideas in which I've had throughout that 2015 World Cup and every day since I got the phone call from Straussie telling me that I was going to continue to be captain.

I think that was probably the biggest moment because we recognised that we were so far off the mark We needed to change the way we played. We needed to have one clear goal as a team and to try and get everybody to buy into it. And the phone call from him was a huge confidence booster for me because I didn't know where I stood, both as a captain and as a player,

but also him giving me absolute clarity in that we need to change things drastically and that he would give us time to change them. Now I go back, so in 2003 when I got the England test job, I wasn't disrespectful for the senior players that had been playing in that time, but I wanted to beat Australia. Now, I felt to beat Australia in 2005 I needed a different mindset, and by a different mindset I needed different personnel. So we went with a younger set of players to lead into 2005, Peterson Bell, Strousie came in, Simon Jones, Gerant Jones. You did a similar thing after that World Cup where you went away from Stuart Broad, Jimmy Anderson, James Treadwell.

You know, servants of the England side that had done pretty well. Was it a similar feeling that you just needed the team mindset to go in a different direction? I think with the transition of the 50 over game, particularly in that 2015 World Cup, the drastic move towards higher scores. Scores moving from 300 to 330 on average meant that you had to change everybody's default mode. And as a group, we'd been together for quite some time playing the same cricket. that we played. When we'd be put under pressure, we would go into our shell and be unable to play any shots and therefore lose the game in that regard. Our strongest point was our bowlers,

so Broad, Anderson, Treadwell, Swan, these guys were awesome. But unfortunately, the 50 over game wasn't lending itself to that type of bowling and you needed to be able to post 330, 350. So actually selecting guys that when the default mode is pure aggression was quite a highlighted thing when we spoke in selection. And did you, at any stage, sit back at home and write down a few names? Jason Rowe was playing T20 at the time. Legspin, Adel Rashid, he was one of your first picks after that World Cup. Clearly you had a clear vision of the style of cricketer that you needed in that team.

Yeah, obviously we identified guys who have a huge amount of talent and would fit the mould where if they did get knocked back at some stage they would come harder and harder trying to post big scores to try and bridge that gap between where we were at the 2015 World Cup and where the best in the world were. So that did come into it but I think one of the major things that came into it was people's capacity to continue to learn and get better. guys at a certain age where by in four years time they potentially would be coming into the peak of their career and hopefully see the better side of them and all that sort of thing was discussed having a leg spinner having an experienced team between the last World Cup and this World Cup

there were about 87 won the internationals trying to get games on the guy's belt that you thought would look like a team in 2019 and as a leader I mean, what you're saying clearly has happened. How did you do it? I mean, it's easy to say, you know, a batsman, you've got to go out and play your shots, be aggressive.

How did you install that confidence in the individuals to go out and play in that fashion? I think it all stems from Andrew Strauss. We sat in the first selection meeting we had into the summer of 2015, just over there on the tavern stand. He gave absolute clarity and clear direction in that we needed to change and implement things that I'd spoken about

and things that he witnessed as a commentator the last couple of years and the need for change. And I think emphasising that test match cricket wasn't going to be the only priority over the next four years and the white ball cricket would take a front seat as well puts huge priority towards it. So the direction that that gives me and the selectors and faith that trying to implement what we're trying to do would take time rubs off massively. And I think for me as a captain, I'm certainly somebody who likes to embody things that I say and back up to try and gain trust within a team and build relationships. So that helps me massively as a captain.

But also having Paul Farbrace, Trevor Bayliss and a group of outstanding senior players who are leaders within themselves living and breathing what we were trying to do every day has helped my case massively. How have you learned this leadership? Where have you got it from? You know what, I'm not sure. One of the best pieces of advice I ever had when I got the captaincy was to be myself.

Don't try and be anybody else. Don't try and reenact a Michael Vaughn or an Andrew Strauss. You don't want to drop catch his right? Don't want to drop catch his full stop. But be the best version of yourself, because people will be able to relate to that, and it'll come true. Do you ever read any books, leadership books? Bits and pieces. I actually learn more from talking to people, and actually visualising what people do. You should be able to tell more about either talking to people or their body language as opposed to, you know, some book they might have read, that they've stolen some of the idea.

What's an example of someone's body language that you've studied and you've kind of picked up on? So I've played against, and I'm extremely good friends, with Brendan McCullum. If you look at his body language at any stage of any game, it's extremely positive, it's always on the front foot, everything's meant in the right way, and he's leading from the front, regardless of the scoreboard, regardless of the situation of the game. And that's somebody who I pick his brain from time to time, and he's fantastic for that. But as a pure leader, I think he's exceptional. Now, you mentioned Brendan McCullum, it was a New Zealand series after the 2015 World Cup

that everyone noticed a drastic change. Was there ever a conversation that you and the New Zealand skipper had before that series? Do you know what, this is going to be a fun series? I think New Zealand cricket had embodied playing fun cricket before then. And playing against them, we were a little bit jealous. enjoying our cricket as much, we didn't seem to see that side of it as much as they did. And that was something that we wanted to change, you know, transforming your game from, you know, from an average scoring side to somebody who might, you know, score 350 or 400 is

extremely exciting and fun to be part of. When you played in that series up against your old pal Brendan, was it like you were just playing like you used to play in Ireland when you're 11, 12, 13, 14, just go out there, watch the board, try and crack it to the boundary and see what the outcome was going to be? Yeah, it was. And throughout the first couple of years we had as a side, obviously, that being our first series, and not of, well, actually none of it is results based. Everything we spoke about in the changing was about changing our method and template in

which we wanted to get better at and accepting that it would take time, but developing trust with selecting players continuously as long as they played for the team with that one goal of trying to win a game with the bat bowlers were always trying to take wickets regardless if they went for runs as long as they maintain the attitude of trying to take wickets guys would continue to be selected and that has been worth this weight in gold because that has developed a lot of trust between, you know, the coach, captain and the players. So previously, a good example of that is the first game with that summer ejection when I got our first ball of the game against New Zealand.

Big drive normally nails it through the covers, for whatever reason, it went to point. We went on to score 400, but we don't ever speak about that. We talk about, mate, unlucky next time, because he's such a valuable asset. The way he plays, the effect that has in the team in the changing room, the potential he has. The last three years we've seen him go from strength to strength. See I remember a game at the Adjiaz bowl. It must have been the first year after the last World

Cup and you were bowed out in 44 overs. That's right, yeah. And there was many saying, oh you've got about those last six overs, that's going to be costly. And straight afterwards in your presser you just went that's the way we play and that's the way we're going to continue to play. And I thought that was a real key message for everyone involved in English cricket, commentators, players, supporters that

wait a minute we've got an England team that are different they're going to play the way that potentially could put us on a platform to go on and win the World Cup was that a key message that you were sending that day yeah it was and like I mentioned before it wasn't results based we're working on the process of trying to change something significant previous to that game we hadn't really no we'd have to play extremely well to get 300 and maybe get 320 in that particular game, we were on for getting 340 or 350, but just fell short. The message was continued to get better at what we're doing. Don't worry about getting bowled out. Continue to put the opposition under pressure. Now, your journey over four years, you've had some difficult

times with your form and you made the decision not to tour Bangladesh. How big a decision was that? And did you feel that you might lose the captaincy because of it? It was a difficult decision and one that I didn't find easy to make. I thought about all the consequences at the time. I thought about losing the captaincy, being dropped from the team and just English cricket going in a different direction. And I come back to how the advice that I was given about how I want to lead. I want to stay true to everything that I am as a person and I want that to affect my leadership. If I had a wend, if I had a wend to. and in my heart of hearts didn't feel safe enough to go and perform in an England shirt

that would not have sat well with me and it would have rubbed off on the other players and it would have affected the other players and I thought it was the right decision and I went with it and I think since then and throughout that whole tour everybody within the group has accepted that that was my decision and I'm a guy of good strong principles if I really believe something I'll say it or I'll do it and I think people respect that where do you get this so dealing with that situation

you dealt with it incredibly well there was a lot of negativity I was one and said I'd be surprised if he comes back from this he's not toured Bangladesh as an England captain how do you get the respect of the players or the trust back but straight away you went straight in that dress room as if nothing had happened. Where do you get this inner strength and confidence to be able to lead and be who you are?

You get naught one day and I don't see that it affects your next innings. I'll be honest, when I got naught, the next day I'm taking, where's my next run coming from? You seem to have this confidence in error that's gone. I've just got to focus on the here and now. How do you do that?

I'm not quite sure. I think I've got better over the years the more I've played at compartmentalising different situations at different games and just realising there's only so much that you can do at that certain time. And when it comes to leadership, I think I never think of myself as being a leader or a captain. It's always about just being myself and believing because it's been a trait that I've always had. I moved here when I was 15 years old and have loved every minute of it since. But I've always had times where I've been questioned or questioned myself,

but out the other side of it has always come to the belief that's always been there. But that's my point. When you question yourself, and we all get it, we all have that chimp in the corner of our mind that says, oh, you're rubbish, you're rubbish, and you've got to kind of put into bed. How do you do that? How do you wake up on a morning and go, that's gone? What is your mechanism? Is there any kind of skill that you could pass on to people to clear out that negativity?

No, for me, it's always listened to the strongest voice. in my head. And that's always the one I stay true to. Everybody has different thoughts in their head and they're only the small ones that ever creep in and really affect. I think it's the people that jump onto them and latch onto them is when a lot of negativity comes in. But constantly listen to the strongest voice in your head has always always worked for me. When I was Skipper and player, particularly towards the back end, we had a diary. And I know you've documented that you've got a diary as well. And I used to write all sorts of things in there. What kind of things do you write in your diary?

Yeah, a lot of it's about the team. A lot of it is about what makes people better and what makes people tick because sometimes people can be extremely complex and we're very fortunate that we don't have any complex characters in the squad, but you want to constantly and continuously make people

better people and better cricketers and for that you need to take notes. You can't remember absolutely everything. And there are things that are in there. I started taking it just before the 2015 World Cup, and there are a lot of probably the things that I look back on constantly are the lessons that I've learned from 2015, those reference points of what I do not want to go back to doing.

And that's good. Every day that's good, because it reminds me of how bad things were and how good things are now. Just give us an insight of what you were writing throughout that world. up in 15? A lot of it was about change, trying to implement change and the fact that it takes time. And trying to get things to land with certain players does take time and trying to find opportunity to implement that.

It takes time. It cannot happen overnight. And the diary, is it once a week? Is it every day? Is it, like you've got your pen in your back, where's the diary now? Have you got it in your bag? No, no. It's something.

I feel something is extremely relevant I'll put it in. I don't just do it for the sake of it. You're squads in a great place, you're in great form. What are you thinking from now to then about the World Cup? Are you changing anything or is it just what we've been doing for four years? I'm not thinking a great deal about it, to be honest. I'm trying to get away from it as possible. We are as best prepared as we could be. And preferably the first game will be tomorrow or the next day.

And it can't come soon enough. the clear message to the team has always been the same for the last four years probably more prevalent than the last two everybody knows their role trust it believe in it and go out and enjoy it does anything worry you

do you ever get angry angry I used to go through a lot of anger certainly when I first started playing with Middlesex I'll tell you I'll tell you a quick one as everybody know we're sitting we're sitting in the front seats of the pavilion at Lords

I got out for 96 here in one of my first championship games from Middlesex and I ran down about five minutes before lunch and tried to hit the ball over the pavilion. Which seemed like a great option at the time. I missed the ball by about two feet. And all the Essex players walked me off and I walked through the committee room,

the long room and all the up the stairs, effing and blinding. Went to him and put my stuff down. The head coach at the time was John Embry. And apparently he was in the committee room at the time and he'd heard everything on the way to a full committee room sitting down for the lunch. and he gave me the full

hair dryer service pulled me out the back since then I've never really got that that flooded about getting out John Embry was the John Embry yeah he changed you did he were an angry an angry use back in your day

oh well potential of first 100 at loads it obviously meant a huge amount to me at the time but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to show everybody else that it means that much I mean how much so a week on Wednesday, whether it's the Wednesday night, the Thursday morning before the first game. Do you already know what you're going to say to the team? No, I don't think you can. I

think one of the important things about being a captain or a coach is recognising what's going on around and choosing the right thing to say at the right time. So depending on the mood either the day before the game or the day of the game, it might not be to say anything at all. And a lot of the time it's not. a good horse trainer you go out and you let your horse run the jockey steers it but the horse has to run the race so if something needs to be said it'll be said what about pressure this one-day team is the first time in my lifetime don't want to put you on too much pressure in but it's the first time relative that I feel we've got a great great opportunity do you in any way

feel that I think it's a huge opportunity and I don't think it is pressure simply because for the last two years everywhere we've gone both home and away we've been favourites going into the series and that's been away in New Zealand away in Australia after being beaten 5-0 in the test match the one day series after it's normally

the afterthought and whoever's winning is flying high and the performance normally rubs through that and I think if guys didn't enjoy being favourites it would become pressure but I think it is opportunity I really truly believe it is huge opportunity

and we couldn't be better positioned than we are right now and the fact that we do have templates for different situations we have reference points to go out and do what we can it might not come off but it's reassuring that we have planned see the word opportunity I hear you use it I hear Ed Smith you use it the national selector and it really is an opportunity not just for the England team but the game the game of cricket to sell itself globally and the World Cup

and then the ashes that follows. Is that the kind of conversation you as a team are having them? Wait a minute, let's make sure we really maximise this opportunity, not for ourselves, but for the game in general. Yeah, we have. We're actually in a fortunate position where we had a camp before the Pakistan series, and Gareth Soke came in and talked to us for a couple of hours.

He actually ended up staying for three or four, and he was outstanding. He talked us through his journey, as manager of the England team throughout the World Cup, and where they were striving to be. And a lot of our players resonated with exactly what they are going through at the moment because that was us three, four years ago,

trying to get to a stage where we go into a major tournament as favourites and building the process of changing the way that you play. And he spoke about pressure and opportunity and how the outlook of the person's view on things is obviously the most important view because pressure is created. it by yourself regardless of your favorites or not favorites you can still be under

pressure but that pressure is applied by yourself self-imposed so the outlook on things is obviously extremely important now you came over here we 15 yeah it was 15 I'm on the boat or do you fly what did you get I flew flew over I flew so 15 you arrived you went to Dulwich no I was Dulwich when I was 14 and when I was 15 I came here for two weeks in the somewhere almost a trial period for Middlesex. I played some of the 17 and under 19 games and then I signed here as a 16 year old.

So you signed as a 16 year old, you play for Middlesex, you're now captain in England, your team have got an opportunity. The final's going to be at your home venue. It's pretty cool, isn't it? Unbelievably cool. I think to put it in a bit of context, as a kid you dream of scoring 100 in a test match

that goes on to win the game or hitting the winning runs in a World Cup final. I never dreamt that I'd be captaining England in a home World Cup. And I think that's a really privileged position to be in. You use the word lucky a lot, don't you? Yeah, absolutely. Are you lucky? I think I'm one of the luckiest person in the world.

I really do. I do. Me and my wife talk about it all the time. We're incredibly lucky people. Fortunate things managed to happen to us for some reason. reason. And we're very grateful. All the best. We really do hope you deliver. The way that the team have played for four years has been special. My advice, just carry on.

Thanks, Fony, and thank you very much for your support. The TMS Podcasts at the Cricket World Cup. Download the full podcast using the BBC Sounds app, where you can also subscribe to get a new episode every day throughout the tournament. Cheers, mate. Brilliant, thank you. That's great, isn't it? Marvelous. Thank you.