Test Match Special - CWC Day 10: Jason Roy hits 153 as England beat Bangladesh in Cardiff

Episode Date: June 8, 2019

Jonathan Agnew and Michael Vaughan react to England piling on their highest World Cup total in a 106-run defeat of Bangladesh, whilst New Zealand comfortably defeated Afghanistan.We also hear from James Anderson and Paul Farbrace as they reflect on England's elimination from the World Cup four years ago.

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There's a mix-up. Oh, there could be a run-out. There will be a run-out. It's a tie. Australia is in the final. Kevin O'Brien from nowhere has scored the fastest hundred in World Cup history. Sporting, that's it. The West Indies have retained the title. And India have caused one of the greatest upsets in the history of all sports. It's all right. And England, they're out of the World Cup. That is absolute ignominium. I'm Jonathan Agnew. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast at the Cricket World Cup.

To come, Michael Vaughn reflect on an impressive win for England here in Cardiff, and we'll hear from the likes of Jason Roy and Shacky Bull Hassan. We'll also hear from Paul Farbrace and James Anderson on England's one-day revolution since losing to Bangladesh at the last World Cup. And we'll have a report from Taunton, where New Zealand have been playing Afghanistan. The TMS podcast. the Cricket World Cup. So, Michael, what do you think of that?

That's a potential banana skin dealt with. Yeah, very professional. You know, from pretty much around the fifth over where it was an edgy start. You've got to expect that when you've lost a game that you'd just start the next game with a little bit of trepidation. I think it turned out to be a good toss to lose.

I think if Bangladesh had batted and potentially got the score that they've got, 2.80, it could have been a tricky afternoon for England, so Mataza will probably look back at his decision and felt particularly with Bangladesh playing so well in the first two games getting a score on the board but England have done exactly what they need to do just be very professional

you know they played with the bat in hand smart at times you know there was times where they kind of knocked the odd kind of low scoring over and realising they were just getting in particularly those first few hours of Shaki Balasana was slightly concerned that they were going to go too aggressive too soon and then lose two or three early wickets and then it would have been a difficult day

but that opening partnership once Roy and Bester come out and play the way that they do. You know, the foundation's set, and then it's so difficult for the opposing captain to try and keep bowlers for certain times because you've got so many strikers to come in. Who do you keep your bowlers, like Shaki Balhstan? Who'd you keep him for?

Because any one of about four or five can really get you in this England batting lineup. You know, they've got themselves back on track. It was important that they put in a real strong performance today just to get that momentum back with them after the loss against Pakistan, and they've done exactly what was required. We'll hear from the man in the match.

And Roy, you know, second, I think he's down there. Rather unhelpfully, the backdrop to it all is absolutely between us and him and with Alison Mitchell. But I think Ali's going to speak to him in just a moment. It was an excellent innings. And you're right, Mark, I love the way that they just got themselves in. It wasn't, it was something frenetic or, or they looked worried as they did. There were things worrying them at Trent Bridge. You know, that didn't seem to happen today.

They're just, you know, the number one team in the world. and they obviously thought, right, we're going to get out there, and just show everyone that we really are. We would just put that away. Perhaps it was a bit of a kick on the backside, and sometimes everybody needs that. It just made us focus again and just sort out where we're going to go, and they've come back and they've done it.

Yeah, I mean, the batting wasn't a majorly concern at Trent Bridge. It was a little bit of the bowling, in particular in the field. With the batting hand, this England side of just a powerful unit that now seven times on the trap, the past 300, which has never been done before. exactly the kind of batting team that England possess in one-day cricket. With Barstow and Jason Roy, when you watch them, when they're hitting the ball back down the ground, you know, they're hitting the left-arm spinner from mid-off to extra cover with the full face of the bat,

they're facing the seamers and hitting it to mid-on and mid-off and playing good strong drives. You know that they're in a good mindset and they're getting themselves in good base positions. And that's exactly what that pair did today. You know, Josh Butler on one leg, 60-odd, off 40-odd ball. Just a terrific player to have. You know that he's just going to destroy most bowling teams. You can't set fields to him. And these boundaries, it doesn't matter if they're a bit bigger than this.

They're just not big enough for the power that he possesses. Yeah, very, very impressed. Very impressed because it was a banana skin. It was one of those kind of days that you were feeling, well, if England just come and have an off day. But the record with Bangladesh too in the World Cup. And they've lost here against Pakistan two years ago in the Champions Trophy's semi-final.

You just felt that there was a little bit of underbelly that potentially could have crept in. while they've put that to bed. Two out of three. The World Cup's back on track. Jason Roy is strolling over. I can see him accompanied by various security and so on. So hopefully we can get down there in a second and get his thoughts with Alison Mitchell. It was a superb innings. And here we go. Here's Allie with Jason Roy. Very nice in what it is too. Yes, Jason, congratulations.

Does 100 mean more in a winning context for England? Yeah, of course it does, but it was great to get out there and write our wrongs from last game and put in a big performance. What pleased you the most about the way you went about your innings? I guess just the way that Johnny myself, we built the innings well. We didn't quite know exactly what the pitch was going to behave like, so we wanted to give ourselves the best chance possible. And we knew with our batting line up that no matter what we get off the first ten, batting the whole 50 we're going to get good enough how did you have to adapt as you went along because it was a notable the first big partnership you've had together as an opening pair in this world cup

yeah this world cup and we were three games in only so we've been doing pretty well together over the past couple of years so we've got nothing too much to worry about i don't think we just got there and get the job done what's been the message then from the captain about the performance and the way he bounced back from pakistan no nothing yet we straight back up there and straight back down i didn't have a chance to chat with him but he's obviously going to be very happy we put in a very well-rounded performance and like I said at the start we we write at our wrong so I'm extremely happy with the boys I'm sure this captain is too we'll hear from him shortly too Jason Roy congratulations player of the match Jason Roy thank you we write it our wrongs is quite good way putting it actually and it's good it's good that you get the England players coming out and actually saying yeah you know something we weren't we weren't we weren't on top of it the other day we've heard excuses in the past and everything else or that's the way I play sort of stuff well no no no actually that's total honesty there yeah it's it's good to hear I mean that They look to me that they're in a good space.

They've got good players and that's all they've got to keep selling themselves. If they look around the dresser room, you just look at the players that aren't in the side. They're getting many other one-day teams around the world. And when you've got that quality and you've got the players that can really put the opposing team under pressure with both the ball and the bat, and when they're fielding at the best, they can create real pressure in the field as well. You know, you've got to feel confident. You know, you have to look around the dresser. There's got to be something either wrong with us or the opposing team.

has got to play an incredible game of cricket to beat us. Now, let's not arrive and have the mentality like we saw against Pakistan where they were off. You know, if they arrive and have an off day mentally and don't quite arrive and be on it, well, they're going to get beat because there's some good teams in this tournament. The West Indies on Friday, if they arrive and have a day like they did against Pakistan, the West Indians will beat them.

If they arrive and play like they did against South Africa and the way that they've done today against Bangladesh, the West Indies will have to play some game of cricket to beat this England side. And that's all they've got to keep telling themselves. If a West Indian side arrive and play incredible, cricket and Gail or the likes of Shea Hope

Shemar and have a day out in the sun that you think don't see that often. Well you've got to stick your hand up and say they've played better than us but don't arrive and have a day like they had against Pakistan and I'm very confident that England's keep their mentality flat and don't get agitated against Pakistan they were agitated. You know the little

couple of things that affected their play and it was potentially the ball tampering which was load of nonsense both teams were doing exactly the same if they can clear out the peripheral that arrive at particularly World Cups and under the pressure of high-level cricket, you know, they've got a great chance of going all the way. So it's just about the mentality going forward.

Charles Agnes down there as well, he's talking to Liam Plunkard. Thank you very much, Jonathan. Yes, Liam and Jason Roy said in an interview just now, righted a few wrongs from the game against Pakistan. Is that the way you feel? Yeah, it is. Obviously, start with a spinner against us. The lads are a bit tentative, but they've got themselves in.

We know we can score as the game goes on, and that's what we did. The boys look comfortable, got themselves in. in another great partnership up top which obviously set us going obviously a big score there it's always nice to get runs on the board and we know as the bowling unit we're good at defending spin is going to be a key against the two opening parts batsmen because that is what teams are now starting to do what are you doing to remedy that is there a lot of spin being practiced with the opening pair in the net just as normal mate because you know with them two and obviously any our bats they can also take that for 20 and over so you know that it's not like they can't play spin

The slap spin, you watch Johnny in the IPL. You take down spin all the time. So it's, obviously people will try it and some days will come off. As today, we took our time and got ourselves in and obviously got a monster score. Now, we don't have time to go through

every one of your nine balls of your little cameo at the end. But that must have felt good because they were important runs to get you to that total. Yeah, it's obviously nice to get out there number eight. I don't know where I'm normally out

from 8 to 11. We've got such a strong, obviously, batting line up. So it's nice to get them to go down there, strike a few balls. All the lower end, practice really hard with the bat and we bat obviously the same pretty much a same amount as you the guys up top so it's nice to strike a few balls when you

were bowling 386 you felt I'm assuming at the halfway stage that that was a plentiful score yeah we knew it's a big score but they've got some good strikers up top who you never know it can be dangerous you never take things for granted we know we need solid bowling performance even if you win this game it's nice to get that under your belt and try and keep with our standards what can we keep them to if it's not 380 what we got let's keep the total of 285 they'll try and keep them under that just sort of our standards genuine pace from one end how difficult was it bowling into that strong breeze because someone had to do it you all

had a go yeah obviously the young lads get the wind I think Morgs asked me up early home which end I want I was not sure I've got a choice but thanks for thinking about me no it was obviously it was a bit swirling but it was in some sort of rhythm and I felt good felt like it did a good job for the team there but my eight overs into the wind everyone got to go from that end and obviously it was good performance to finish off the day and obviously disappointed to miss out in the previous game but, you know, making a marker and keeping hold of the shirt, that's what this your role in this side is about?

Yeah, it is. Obviously, you got to play, and they went for a bit of pace last week. Woody Ballwell, ball well last game, and obviously played again today. Obviously, I take pride in the middle overs, trying to take wickets. Obviously, I went away and keep working on my game, and I felt like a ball nicely today. Well, well played today, and nice to get back on the winning front.

Cheers, Paul. Liam Plankip. There we go. Thank you, Charles. We'll be on duty there. Looking to talk maybe to Owen Morgan when he has finished his various requirements. Down there, Liam Plunkett, yes, 27 from nine balls. And Chris Wokes, 18.

They've grown 45 to 17 balls, those two. Let's talk Josh Butler a second, Michael Vaughn. I mean, so extraordinary shots in that evening. I mean, straight sixes off the back foot. Remarkable, but he has done something in that right hip. Yeah, the hit flex, sir. He got a hit there against... Who didn't even play the last game?

I've kind of been... Pakistan. He got a hit there against the Pakistan team. And I just wonder whether there's a little bit... bit of bruising and something to happen to the hip. I just hope it's not too bad. Just interrupt you. Charlie Dagnol's busy again. We're hoping to have Shakeeb al-Hassam. We're live on BBC Radio. If we can just speak very quickly to Shakeeb. Shikib, well played today. Disappointing result, personally, a really good knock from you.

Yeah, personally, very happy the way I played. But obviously, very disappointing the way we played, you know. I thought we didn't start well with the ball, and that was the crucial, you know, point. And when they got the start, which they did, and after that they capitalized on that, and we always knew that we had to play the catch-up game, which we couldn't do, you know, at any stage of the game. You know, it goes to the England bats in the way they played in this wicket. Jason Roy was unbelievable, and Josh Butler played a fantastic. And you, I mean, even though you've been defeated in the last two games, you're playing some good cricket at this World Cup?

Yeah, we wanted to play good cricket. We knew that. For the challenges, we are doing well. Yes, I guess New Zealand, it was a very close game. England, I thought we were a bit short, but we need to pick ourselves up because there are plenty of games left. All right, thanks so much for your time. Thank you, Shaquay.

Thank you. Thank you, Charlie. We'll hear from Owen Morgan later. Actually, in the podcast, you'll catch up with the thoughts of the England cap. We're talking about Josh Butler. I mean, they've got quite a few days to try and get him right. Yeah, what if you've got six days? And, you know, they'll be desperate to get him back in.

But one thing is for sure is that you can't really. risk it. No. You know, because if there's a slight problem in there, and there's a small tear of such, if you play him too soon and all of a sudden that becomes a rip and a real nasty one, you know, you're potentially looking at two or three weeks. So I think England will be cautious, but it's such a big game against the West Indies on Friday that they'll do everything they possibly can to make sure that they try and get him out there. You could clearly see it was actually the sixth they hit off the back foot down the ground into the river. River Taft took an absolute pace him for it for a while when Butt was out there.

and he went off the back foot and kind of played a straight bat he pulled shot down the ground, remarkable stroke and you could see that the hip came through and straight away he was grimacing and he was limping quite badly and he's a tough cookie, he's Josh Butler and you don't often see him miss

a stint in the field whether it was precaution we'll find out over the course of the next few days but you know that's the only negative of today England have been very professional but there's always a slight concern that it may be worse than you think and he may miss a game or two we'll have to wait and see. How many sixes were hit

today, Andy Zaltzman, from both sides? I think if I are a young lad out there I'll get my punt out and do a bit of dredging this evening because a lot of balls went into the taff. England hit 14 2 from Bangladesh. 16, 60s, I mean they didn't all go in the river. 14's, that's a big number that.

You're hitting 146s in your innings. That is power and that's what this England batting line up bring and that's what they've brought for such a long period of time that you know that if you don't get early wickers. I think if you look at the first two games, getting that early wicket, you know, Imran Tahir, getting rid of

Bairstow, you know, Shadab Khan getting rid of Jason Royal, getting the early wicket and breaking that opening partnership is the key to playing well against this England side. If you allow that opening partnership to flourish, you can get off to the 100 start that they do on a regular occurrence, you're looking at 350 plus, you have to break that opening partnership. Thank you, Michael.

Let's get reaction then from the England captain. Now, Owen Morgan was speaking to Alison Mitchell. Exactly the sort of response you wanted post the Pakistan game. Yeah, I think more positives to take out of the game today. We took a lot of positives from the Trembridge game against Pakistan into this game. We knew that we would have to improve in order to win a tough game against Bangladesh today. And I think with the bad in particular, we were outstanding. The two boys up the top

of the order set a really solid platform and Jason managed to go on and get quite a significant score at a good clip again. So that's great to see. He's very intimidating to play against when he does score runs. So the impact that has on our team is quite significant. And from there we built on that platform and guys like Josh Butler coming in at the end and Liam Plunkett, Chris Fokes, all contributing, took us up to quite a considerable total on the wicket. Was it about plans coming off because you knew and expected that Bangladesh would open with spin?

You made a point of saying that? Yeah, I think the majority of people will open against spin purely. The fact that it worked in the first game and it took one wicket. It didn't necessarily stop us getting a good total on the board. But there's always something that sides will throw up against. us, whether it's spin, swing, different pace bowling. We're prepared, so hopefully we can counter all the plans that are thrown at us. Another fantastic, fast, hostile spell from Joffre Archer. He must be a dream to captain. Yeah, he is. All our bowling unit is. I thought him,

Wokes, Wood, Plunkett, absolutely outstanding. Ben Stokes at the end. Adil Rashid, the threat that he is. They're wonderful to captain. You know, all the guys really want to bowl at those crucial periods and today was no different. And was the fielding where you wanted it to be after the efforts at Trent Bridge? Yeah, I think an improvement again. It's always an area that we're trying to put in a perfect performance so it's always going to be tough

trying to move on to the next game but today was a considerable improvement. And what can you tell us about Joss Butler? No serious concern with Joss at the moment. He didn't keep in the innings just as a precautionary. He felt his hip a little bit but that'll be monitored over the next

48 hours. So in Morgan, I've got Andy Zaltzman with me and also Rosham Alam, our regular voice on the Dusra podcast, Roshaun, disappointing. I mean, I think we all feel, obviously England supporters will feel. That was a banana skin that England had managed to overcome

because Bangladesh would have had realistic hopes of winning today. Yeah, absolutely. I think of all the games in the World Cup, I don't think that was one that we were definitely going to win. It was important for us to come here and put on a decent performance because it's the one that everyone was watching and it was the one that was going to improve

Bangladesh's cricketing reputation I'm not convinced we did that today and for me that's the bigger disappointment than losing the two points in the World Cup in the grand scheme of things they're not the plans right I mean Shacky opening the bowling and so on and tantalising

Ben Still and Roy a bit I think our bowling started with confidence but I think it became for me quite clear that we didn't really know where we were going or who was going to bowl in the final ten overs but I mean we got to like halfway through and Shaquette had bold and most of his allocation and Fizz had like a few overs left

it was scrappy and messy and I think we got the team selection wrong I think if I'm honest or we needed an extra pace bowl or we should look to that pitch if you're going to plant a bowl first when you win the toss have the bowling attack to back it up and we didn't

and it is tricky with the wind and the short boundaries to juggle them around yeah quite right I mean I think we basically have had the same team throughout the entire World Cup and it was the right side

for the South Africa game with that pitch okay you want a match let's not change it for the New Zealand game but after the loss it was the perfect time to come and have a look and go right

what are the conditions who are the players who can do that and we didn't and that's why we lost the game One thing also, I spotted, I thought the ground field was poor today by Bangladesh, actually. A lot of fumbling and bumbling going on. I think when stuff starts not go in their direction, their body language can drop quite quickly. They're very emotional side.

They could call that a lot. And I think as soon as, you know, that opening partnership started to happen, I think they started to go rural. This game's not going our way. And sometimes it's going to be quite hard to pick those players up. And that showed. I think that really did show it today. Yeah. Andy, what have you got over there? Apart from the deluge of sixes into the taff,

What have you got stat-wise? Well, in terms of sixes, it's the tenth time that England have hit 14 or more sixes in a one-day international innings, and they've all been since the last cricket World Cup in this new era of attacking English batsmanship. They'd never hit more than seven sixes in a World Cup innings before, so they've doubled their national record for that. It's the seventh best World Cup score over all 386, and the third best against test match opposition. So, all I know, it was a pretty good day for England's batting. It was England's second

win by a hundred runs or more against test opposition, this World Cup, having beaten South Africa by over 100 the other day. There only had one such victory in the previous six tournaments. That was against Pakistan in 2003, which I guess reflects that England played well in two of their three games and appallingly for the previous six tournaments. That sounds about right. And are you confidence, for Sean, that they can pick themselves up from here now? so. I think the two defeats will serve well for them to go, right, here's what I need to fix. And actually, we now go into a run of games of teams who we would expect to beat. We would expect to beat Sri Lanka at the moment. We just came off the back of beating West Indies three

times in Ireland. So they'll go into that game with a sense of confidence and then you have Afghanistan, etc., coming up. So for me, this was the big one, this was a tough one, and it was the one that we need to come out with a little bit of dignity. I'm not entirely sure they did that, but a semi-final place is still in sight. Must ask you about Shakib. I mean, he's extraordinary, he just keeps rolling on. He is. I mean, he came to this tournament as the world's number one all round, and he has lived up to expectation. I think he finishes tonight as the top run score in the inside tournament.

And it's so important for Bangladesh and him to have someone like him waving the flag for Bangladesh. And, yeah, I only feel sorry for him because I feel like he has so much to do. Battle number three, bowl your entire ten, over, has opened the bowling. How much more can one man do? No, indeed. Thanks for Ashah. Any last offerings from the end there? Well, some good performances by some of England's bowlers,

Joffre Archer, three wickets. And I just saw the replay of him bowling. sum you soccer and the ball did definitely clear the rope after hitting the off bail it went over the boundary behind the weekkeeper so would it have been seven no balls had it been a no ball i think it might well have been yeah i've never seen that before no um we haven't seen it yet but it could have been three uh three wickets also for uh for ben stokes he's got five already in the world cup he only had five since the start of uh the 2018 summer uh in about 14 innings before uh today one player who didn't go so well for chris works none for 67

off eight. Nine times in his career he's gone at more than eight, eight and over or more in a one day, and five of them have been this summer. So that's a potential concern for England. He's been so reliable for England over the past three years. He's expensive in Pakistan too, isn't it? But he was bowling from the horrible end here, to be fair. Okay. So England have avoided a third successive World Cup defeat against Bangladesh. In 2015, the loss in Adelaide meant England were eliminated from the tournament. It ended a hugely disappointing campaign and led to a huge change in how they play one-day cricket. It was Paul Farbrace as caretaker coach who began

that revolution and I've been talking about that journey over those four years with Farbrace and the man dismissed at the end of that fateful night in Adelaide James Anderson. Yeah it's not the not my fondest memory of playing in an English shirt but to be honest

my memories of that World Cup were not great really as a team even the lead up to it wasn't what you've want as a lead up to a World Cup with Alistair Cook, the captaincy getting handed over and Owen Morgan taking over quite... Yeah, very short notice. Yeah, so I felt for Owen a little bit, he didn't really have a chance to put his stamp

on the team, which he has eventually done in the last four years, but at that point it was a very sort of... When the captaincy turns around like that, it can be odd for the players as well because you're thinking, well, if they're not sure who the best captain is, it's... they're sure of the best players sort of thing. You know, it puts doubts in the players' minds a little bit on selection and things like that. So, yeah, it wasn't just generally the whole feeling throughout that World Cup was a little bit like we were a couple of steps behind everyone else.

Does it feel a right decision to make the change? I mean, people have been talking about Alastair Cook and the captain's of the one-day team for quite a long time, actually, hadn't they, building up to that? I wonder if they just, did they leave it a bit late, do you think? Yeah, the timing of it was just a little bit odd. odd very close to that World Cup that was the only thing. If that's, if if he's not the right man for the job then

at least give the new guy, give Owen Morgan some time to settle in and have, you know bed in not just with the captaincy but he'd want, he's the players that he wants, he'd want to play in a certain way, he'd want you know things like that to be in place

long before the World Cup starts. Yes. Remember the first game of course James Taylor standing out there in Australia a big occasion and so on I don't know the way that all that stuff that sort of controversy happened with James Taylor's dismissal as well

it sort of set a bit of a strange start to the whole tournament really didn't it and we should have had 100 yeah he should I mean again that wasn't a great start for us we bowed first I think we dropped the catch in the first over yeah so we just started

badly and it kind of never really picked up from there we didn't feel great that first game and then we never really I was batting with James at the time when he was on 90 odd and then I think it was me who was giving out, run out even though

They've all went the wrong way around It's something about It'd been giving LBW That's right, giving LBW he reviewed it But they'd run me Yeah, it should have been a dead ball It should have been, yes And he should have got 100, yeah

So it was just Yeah One of those So scruffy start to it Yeah And looking back you can't I guess we were thinking Well is this a start of something

Yeah Things or you know How things are meant to be In the rest of the World Cup Yeah, but I mean, had you gone there confidently, or was there always this little bit of unsettled feeling because of the captaincy and the thing? Did you go thinking you could win it? Or were you always thinking, do you know other teams actually are rather ahead of us here? Yeah, I mean, we weren't one of the favourites for that competition by any stretch, and we'd, I think there was a tour to Sri Lanka.

I don't think I went to Sri Lanka. Yeah, we lost 5-2 in Sri Lanka. That was when Cookie lost the captain C at the end of that series, which was November, December. and he lost the captaincy at the end of that series and then Morg's captained there was a tri-series against Indian Australia before the World Cup and we lost in the final to Australia

in that but it was, I mean Jimmy's absolutely right it was Morgs was captain in Cookies team in effect and the decision I think at the time and I was involved in those decisions that it was the idea was to keep Cookie going to the end of that World Cup and then we lost that series in Sri Lanka 5,000

and the decision was made at the end of that series. And I still think, you know, it was the right decision to keep Cookie going because there was a lot of people wanted him changed. Yes. But at that stage, Morsi and Cookie were building a good relationship in terms of the test team. The test team was starting to take a good direction. And I think the feeling was that if we change Cookie,

that could affect the relationship between Morsi and Cookie at that stage. Yes. And as it was, then we got so close, in hindsight, we should have definitely stuck with Cookie through to the end of that World Cup. Yeah. So all the coaching staff involved, not all the coaching staff, but I mean senior coaching personnel are involved in decisions like that. Well, it was, Paul Downton was in charge at that stage.

And Mawsey was obviously the head coach. Jimmy Whittaker was the chairman of selectors. And so my view into that group of them, for what it was worth, I thought cookies should keep going. But it got to the stage at the end of that Sri Lankan series where the decision was taken by the selectors to make a change. And, you know, as Jimmy said, it left very little time for Owen to really stand. his mark on that series. Yeah. How are you feeling going into that World Cup?

What did you think? Well, we were ranked, I think, seventh going into that World Cup. And, you know, I think at that stage, we probably hoped if we could get out the group stage and get to the quarterfinal, that would probably be about right. And if we could, you know, nick our quarter final and get ourselves to the semi-final, I think we would have probably overachieved. But, you know, there was also the thought that New Zealand was the second game. Australia did the first game, MCG.

see Gene, New Zealand in the second game, and if we could get those two out of the way, we could actually win a few games then and maybe get ourselves into the quarterfinal. But, you know, the first game in Melbourne was horrendous, and the second game against New Zealand in Wellington was even worse. Well, I mean, that was a game, wasn't it? Well, it wasn't a game. I mean, it was that when you and everybody, well, I think it's when we watch and realize actually there's sort of two different games being played there, really.

I mean, I know you give a glove credit to New Zealand for the way that that you then subsequently changed the way that England play. But was that the game? I mean, it was a massacre, wasn't it? It was a horrible, horrible evening. I think it was even worse than the Bangladesh defeat. You know, the changing room after that game was a horrible place to be. David Saker, our bowling coach at the time,

I remember going in to the back room of our changing room, and he was just sat about a yard from the wall, staring at the wall. He just literally had nothing. And everybody, you know, the players, everyone was just, it was just such a demoralizing defeat it was just a horrible thing to walk off from for me the Sri Lanka game which was I think the one after the New Zealand game

where we actually got over 300 but we sort of crept over 300 and at that point we thought we've done really well here to get to 300 and they knocked them off in about 35 overs and we're just like as a bowler you're kind of bowling on a flat deck

thinking I just like Sanga car obviously one of the world's best one day players he was just making and it looks so easy. So let's move into where the change came then, Paul. I mean, who came to who first? Did Owen come to you and say, we've got a change?

Did you go to him and say, we're going to change? No. Because there's no Trevor Bayliss and we're waiting for him to arrive, so you're in charge of the one day series, fun enough against New Zealand, actually. How did it come about? Well, I think at that stage, Andrew Strauss had taken over as the director of English cricket

and his view was that there should be a much more focused approach to one-day cricket and that we'd been very heavily focused towards test match cricket and there was to be real clarity of thought of how we were to move forward and I think the first thing that he did was confirm that Morgas was to be the captain going forward

which absolutely the right decision and interestingly we actually changed the team there was a game against Ireland before the one-day series against New Zealand and six people made their debut and we only played about I think 30 over's maximum and that was the game unfortunately that Pete lost his job as the as the head coach we came back from there Straussie took over immediately after that game and Morgas as I say was was confirmed as captain he didn't play in that game in Ireland he was at the IPL

and six players as I say six I think it was six people made their debut that day and that was the sort of straight from West Indies a real quick turnaround there was only Pete and I that flew from the West Indies into London and then straight on to Dublin for the game the next day. As I say, the game only lasted at 25, 30 overs. But from that moment on, we had our first selection meeting. We played two test matches against New Zealand. And after the first test, we won at Lords. And we had a selection meeting.

And Trevor Bailey said had an input into that side. And he said he wanted a spinner that spun the ball both ways. Ideally a leg sprinter. That's where Rashid came into it. And he'd seen a bit of Jason Roy playing out in Sydney. And he said he really liked his character and his attitude. He liked him in the field. That was a sort of player that he wanted in the side.

So the ironic thing was that there was a couple of Australian TV crews parked outside the Grace Gates at Lords. I was waiting to go in for the selection meeting and stood on the phone for about 45 minutes or an hour talking to Trevor Bayliss about what sort of things he wanted me to feed into the selection panel. We had that selection that the team was selected and that first game at Edgebaston,

the most important thing that happened was that Morgs talked to the players about playing the way that they've been selected. The reason they've been selected was because of the way they played and they brought a freshness to the team. And we went out and got 400 and the whole thing just gathered momentum from there really. And all we kept talking about was we haven't got a plan, we haven't got a ceiling, we're just going to keep playing and see how far we can get. And at some stage we'll start to regroup and think about a plan. So let's not have a plan. Let's not have a ceiling. Let's just go. Let's see how far we can get. We're a long way

a World Cup, before years off a World Cup, let's just concentrate on seeing how good we can be. And then gradually, after about a year, we started, Trevor, myself, Strauss and Owen, started to put together a plan, which we then started to drip feed into the players so that they started to believe it was their plan. And after about 18 months, they started talking about a plan, but they started talking about the things that we dripped into them. And that was quite an interesting time to go through. Strauss was adamant, though. that the England team had to come into this World Cup, at least ranked one or two in the world

to have any chance to win in the World Cup. And now, I think, 15, 16 months out, the England team have been deservedly number one in the world. This group of players, I think, is just been great. For me, it's a little bit frustrating not to be involved because it's been a nice period of, you know, to be involved in a team that plays such exciting cricket. It would have been quite nice to be a part of.

But to actually watch the team grow over the last. last few years has been absolutely amazing and it's just a fantastic team to watch. The TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup. So let's round up today's other match at Taunton where New Zealand took on Afghanistan and it's over to Simon Mann. Yes, thank you, Agers. Welcome to Taunton where New Zealand have beaten Afghanistan by seven wickets. They chased 173 to win. They got there in 32.1 overs. Kane Williamson's 79 knot out. Ross Taylor made 48.

They were 41 for two, but they recovered thanks to that Williamson-Taylor partnership. Earlier, Afghanistan's 66 for no wicket and then 70 for four. They're batting fell away. Jimmy Nisham, 5 for 31 and Lockheed Ferguson, 4 for 37. One other thing of note today, Rashid Khan was hit on the head by Ferguson and was bowled. The ball went on to the stumps and he did not bowl for Afghanistan. So clearly that was a setback for them. Jeremy Coney has watched the day's play alongside me here at Taunton.

Kane Williamson described it as an outstanding effort. Was it from New Zealand? Or would you like to see them get on with it a bit more and improve their net run rate in pursuit of 173 to win? I think it was a pretty good effort again in the field. I think that's the first point. I mean, that's what they did first. So I thought the bowling of Nisham was a bonus for them.

normally part of the fifth bowler and to get five wickets after he's gone for a few runs in the last two games that generally will help and give him some confidence with the ball he hit the track quite hard Ferguson has just continued his good start in this tournament I think he's been very impressive for New Zealand straight fast using the short ball intelligently the bolt is still working finding ways so I think generally with the ball I think New Zealand would be pretty happy and he mentioned there the ground fielding okay a couple of fairly tough

slip catches went down today fairly high top edges that went over tail he got one hand to them but other than that I think you know that they can feel happy with the ball and I think they are feeling more confident with the ball and in the field than they are with the bat at the moment

they haven't had to chase a big target and so they've always been comfortable as long as they could form a partnership when the top four, which is exactly what's happened, I think, in every game. So there's a little bit of an unknown quantity, I think, with that sort of five, six, seven, eight area of the New Zealand batting order.

And that's going to have to remain, I'm afraid, until they are chasing a big total. And I've got a feeling that's going to be just round the corner in this tournament for New Zealand. And particularly against spin, I think that will be the, unless it's bumer that you're facing, which will provide different kinds of problems. But generally against spin, New Zealand need to have the practice of playing spin

and movement of the feet and reading the length of the ball so they can get back early or get forward early rather than just going for big strokes and blocking the rest. I don't think you can do that. Should they batting first then if they wanted more time in the middle? because there was all the prospect that they would dismiss Afghanistan for a relatively small total. What about batting first?

Well, they wanted to win, I think, Simon, really. And because it rained yesterday and it was a little bit green this morning. It didn't actually play too badly at all. I didn't think it seemed too much. There was a little bit of tennis ball he bounced, and it was quite hard to hit. It took some while to get your timing going. And we saw that with Williamson's batting in particular.

But, you know, I think that's just the way New Zealand They targeted these three games They wanted to make sure that they could Be in this position they are now No one can really complain too much about that Like, you know, they They lost Gaptil first ball Who's a very key element for New Zealand

He will get the upper Did that stop them really going for it, do you think? Well, it might have been Gup till first ball And then Monroe inside 8-0, it was 41 for two Thought they're two sort of, you know, go-getters at the top of the order, stop them from really pursuing that target quickly?

It certainly didn't help when Guptal got out first ball and then Monroe went so soon afterwards. And you're right, they are the two the foot on the accelerated men and so then the others can come in and have at least a little bit of time, the two manipulators that come after them, to knock it round. Williamson himself was pretty slow to get going, as you were saying before. So those things compounded, I think, the fact that they couldn't... They've still got it by 18 overs.

Let's just put that. But it could have been. But it may have been 20. Yes, it may have been. It may have been, but it's not to be. And New Zealand now are going to have to confront that issue. And if that means that they look back later and they, you know, they're talking about that run rate. Exactly.

So we'll just have to wait and see on that. They've still got to win another three games. If you'd been captain in that dressing room, would you said, come on, come on. Let's pick up the pace of it. I think I would have put Nisham in at five. and I would have laid them at 6 and Nisham does get on with the hitting of the ball a lot more than some of the others

we've got three manipulators one after the other I think we need to break that up a bit what about Afghanistan, played three lost three they played Australia they played Sri Lanka they played New Zealand have you been disappointed with them or have they played as you expected they would

I think they should have beaten Sri Lanka I think they'll look back on that game and they'll say that was a game we should have won. I don't think they were going to beat Australia or New Zealand, really. I think they were unlucky today that Rashid Khan was not in the bowling resources for them. That was a shame. But generally I think they're batting is the problem for them.

They don't bat 50 overs out, and so they can't post a decent total for their bowlers to come into play. So they've really almost got to bowl first every time. And the wickets have been just slightly because of the unsettled weather aroundings. the wickets have been slightly greener, I think, than most people have anticipated. Well, good news for them. They play South Africa next. Right.

Well, so... We played three and lost three. Yeah. So it could be a... Yes, who would have thought that? I know. Another wooden spoon game. We thought they had one against Sri Lanka the other day,

but perhaps the South Africa game is a wooden spoon game for those two sides. But Afghanistan, another defeat. They've got really time to think about that game. They've got another week. The only thing I would say, I think they could probably rearrange their order just a little. I mean, Hazra Tuller, if he'd been up a little bit further in the order,

he's now got two or three scores, hasn't he, I think, for them. And after Zazai and that, which is an accelerated start going quite nicely, I thought Noor Ali did well today as well, now that Shazad is not playing. But I think if they got a, and they could bring Rashid Khan up as well, well, you know, he's been injured today. But, I mean, they are attacking players. and if they can get away and get... But they seem to me players who are going to get 30s and 40s rather than 80s and 100.

Yeah, and that's not going to be good enough in a World Cup. So let's hear from the Man of the Match. New Zealand's Jimmy Nisham. He's with Brian Waddell. Jimmy Nisham, congratulations, man of the match. Confidence boosted for you. Oh, definitely, I think. I probably didn't bowl the way I would have liked

in the first couple of games, and I just wanted to make a few changes, I suppose, hit the crease with a bit more confidence and a little bit more about me. me and, look, getting a five for you, always need a little bit of luck mixed in, but it's just good to see the ball flying through and, I suppose, challenging the batsman. Is this as good as you've bowled in recent times for this side, because you were out of the team for a while and you've come back into the one-day side in the World Cup?

I felt like I was bowling pretty well at the tail end of the last summer, to be fair. I think, as I mentioned, it's hard to tell being an all-rounder sort of bowling third or fourth change. It's very circumstantial, I guess, if Boltey and Henna's not the top off the order, I suppose it's a lot more comfortable to come in and bowl to some guys that are starting. But look, I just want to keep things as simple as possible, keep hitting the wicket as hard as possible. And every now and then you can have days like today.

The TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup. Okay, thanks, Simon. We're still on the lookout for followers of the TMS podcast from every country in the world. It's been elevated now from an unusual cricketing location last time I read this out, but now from every country in the world. Email us at TMS at BBC.co.com.uk with podcast in the title. David Green is in East New Britain, Papua, New Guinea, enjoying the podcast, Justin Bowdidge.

I've been listening to the daily CWC podcasts and enjoying them immensely from the British school in Tokyo. And have you got one there? Well, this comes from Beth Willard. I'm currently listening to the broadcast from the Elki Valley in Chile. Oh, I'm here at close to 2,000 meters in altitude in the Andes tasting wine.

It's my job. Promise, I think I've got a ridiculous job. Wine tasting in the Andy. Is that a real job? There's not many people I can say that, too, from my perspective. I was listening and watching, writes Beth, all the action of the first week of the World Cup back in the UK, but I've just started my annual buying trip

to find new wines from the 2019 harvest in South. That sounds like she should be invited on as a guest. I think she should. Bring her wares with her. 2,000 metres. Well, there you go. Well, done, Beth. And thanks to everybody else who's been right.

writing in. Keep them coming, won't you? There's lots of other podcasts to look out for as well. New editions of tail-enders and the Dusra is available now via BBC Sounds. On Sunday, it's India Against Australia. There's coverage from 9.30. And also on the website, there's commentary on the second England's Women's One Day International

against the West Indies from Worcester. You want me to read all of that? Yeah, please. That's too long for me. You sure? Yeah. This is Trevor Bayless. Thanks for listening to the TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup.

There'll be new episodes each day. That'll be great. Throughout the tournament. So make sure you subscribe via your usual podcast app or via BBC Sounds. Where you can also hear commentary of every ball of the tournament. You can also email the team on TMS at bbc.co. Dot UK.

Put podcast or whatever that is in the title. Thank you.