Test Match Special - CWC Day 12: Rain, retirements and the evolution of pace bowling

Episode Date: June 10, 2019

Pacemen Curtly Ambrose and Tymal Mills talk about their careers and how fast bowling has evolved and former Protea captain Graeme Smith discusses the mess South Africa find themselves in following AB de Villiers' attempted retirement U-turn.

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Cricket World Cup. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. There's a mix-up. Oh, there could be a run-out. There will be a run-out. It's a tie. Australia is in the final. Kevin O'Brien from nowhere has scored the fastest hundred in World Cup history. That's it. The West Indies have retained the title. And India have caused one of the greatest upsets in the history of all sports. It's all right. And England are out of the World Cup. That is absolute ignominably. Hello and welcome to this episode of the TMS podcast at the ICC Men's Cricket World Cup,

where South Africa and West Indies have been beaten by the weather. Not much cricket to discuss, but we do reflect on the A.B. DeVilliers situation. And I talk to Kurtly Ambrose and Tommel Mills about fast bowling across the generations. From BBC Radio 5 Live, this is the TMS podcast at the Cricket World. Welcome up. So only managed 7.3 overs of play here at the Hampshire Bowl, in which time South Africa managed to lose two wickets to West Indies, winning the toss and putting South Africa in under these cloudy skies with rain in the air.

And Hashimamamler was caught by Gail and slips off Sheldon Cottrell for six. His poor run of form continued. And Aidan Markrim, who came into the side, was caught down the leg side. He gloved one off Cottrell for five. So he saw the famous salute, not once but twice. And just to bring you up to speed with the changes that the teams did make, South Africa brought in Markram and Buren Hendricks for Dumony and Shamsi, while the West Indies enforced a couple of changes with Darren Bravo and Keemar Roach coming in for Evan Lewis

and And And Andre Russell, who'd gone off for a scan on his knee. But it was around about quarter past 11 in the morning when the first rain came and we were never able to get back out after that. So a no result, one points apiece. I've got Fazir Mohammed from the West Indies and Natalie Jamanos with the South African perspective here. What does this mean then for your two teams? Because the West Indies take one point

Fazir. This would have been a game where they would have been targeting two, wouldn't it? Sure, they would have. Obviously both teams will see it as maybe a point lost. Certainly for the West Indies, the way they started this match with the two wickers they would have wanted to bowl first and indeed it was always fevering them if it was

going to be a short match with their big hitters even without an Andrew Russell. So, yeah, they'll feel that maybe this was an opportunity to to create some daylight and give themselves a better chance of making these semifinals. But I'm sure South Africa will look at it as the opportunity to turn things around for them. But at the end of the day, the Western News will feel that it's given them some more time as well for Andrew Russell to sort himself out. He went for a scan for his knee, wasn't selected for this match.

So they've got an excellent schedule as far as spacing out their matches. And I think it'll be reasonably optimistic going into the match against England on Friday, weather permitting. Natalie, South Africa, three losses out of three, and now a point, as Mifazir says, a potential point lost here. Fortunes just aren't getting any better, are they? Yeah, for sure. From South Africa's point of view, obviously we all know that the start that they've had to the tournament for various reasons, whether it be injury, distractions behind the scenes, poor form, etc. Losing three on the trots, and by the way, Favtublisi winning all three of those tosses,

and it didn't go the way of South Africa. He might have been hoping today that because the toss was a little bit different, the result might have been different, I suppose, in a way, it was different. They've at least got a point on the board. It's something for South Africa. But the worry they have is they've already played four matches. That's a long way into the tournament. And for them, it means they probably now have to win all of them in a row

and maybe have to worry about one or two other results going their way from other matches as well. And obviously, that's not within their control. But I suppose with all due respect to Afghanistan, they've got an opportunity to now maybe get the tournament eventually underway. the way they relies it, of course, when they move on to Cardiff. Well, you mention points, Natalie. So South Africa do get their first points on the table, but they are still down in ninth.

The West Indies with that one point, Andy, they've shot up the table. Let's bring in Andy Zaltzman. West Indies are now up to fifth tucked in behind Australia. Yes, well, I'm sure, no doubt they'll be dancing on the streets of Cape Town as this precious point. Got a point. Travels back across the equator. Not a lot statistically to go on in this game.

the second shortest World Cup match in history of the ones that have actually had play, beaten only by India Sri Lanka at Mackay in the 1992 World Cup and if anyone missed that game, let me tell you what happened in that. Champaka, Ramanaka bowed a ball to Chris Srikanth of India,

no run, then he bowed another ball to Chris Srifakhanth of India a single and that was it. So that's bringing you up to speed with what happened in that game in a two ball game. So this is the second shortest I mean on the plus side. The best figures ever by a West Indian left arm opening bowler against South Africa

in a world cut match. There you go. Sheldon Kotter with two wickets. All is not lost. I feel positively blessed that we got 7.3 overs of playing today because it could have been so much worse. I mean, certainly the third time a left arm was open for West Indies against South Africa in a world cut match, but still, history, Fuzziah, history. Absolutely, absolutely.

Do you have any good news for South Africa in your computer? Because you've had no good stats for South Africa, almost the whole tournament? There's only five games left. Well, that do? Yeah, well, cheap, it's hopefully from South Africa's point of view. The difficulty, of course, though, could yet be more wet weather. And you mentioned South Africa, Natalie, about the fact that, yes, they'll need to win, and that was kind of the case coming into today as well.

But actually, things could be thrown a little bit awry. If there is more wet weather, well, let's find out just what part the weather may play. Darren Bet is at the BBC Weather Centre. What news have you got for the rest of this week, Darren? Hello, Alison. Well, Tuesday, we've got the game, of course, at Bristol, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and there's the chance of rain here,

especially later on in the day, even the possibility of it does brighten up of some thunderstorms, which is not good news, of course. So a bit hit and miss, I think, for Tuesday, as it could be on Wednesday, though, at the moment, potentially, we could be lucky maybe in between two rain areas at Taunton. Keep an eye on the forecast.

But again, we still got the risk of some heavy showers and even some thunderstorms, actually, on Thursday. Big one, India against New Zealand at Trent Bridge. This could be disrupted by some heavy rain. If it does come down, that rain is really going to pour and there may well be some thunderstorms as well. Okay, well, that's not the news we were hoping for, Darren. Thank you very much, though.

It does get better, though, Alison. Oh, it does it? Give us the better news. Yeah, well, we've got, of course, the big one, Joffar Archer, England, against West Indies on Southampton on Friday. And at a moment, it should be a dry day and there'll be some sunshine. It'll feel a bit warmer as well. And the game that I'm going to, Alison, on Saturday, Sri Lanka against Australia at the Oval, that again looks dry, and there should be some sunshine. It may well be dry as well at Cardiff for the late.

a game between South Africa and Afghanistan. So getting better, Alison. From BBC Radio 5 live, this is the TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup. Let's bring our Andy Zaltzman back in because we have thrown open our quest, haven't we, to get pod listeners in every country around the world. So we've got a few emails that have come in telling us where people are listening from. Take a couple of away. Oh, well, this comes from Mark Bennett.

Hi, TMS podcast. I'm currently listening throughout this World Cup from my home in the Swiss Alps. The hiking season is in full flow and winter snow is finally disappearing. Well, I mean, don't throw your weather in our direction. Please. The Swiss cowbells are ringing. It's the best thing to do with a cowbell

and yodlers are in the mountains. That's unclear whether that is voluntary from the yodlers or if they have been removed there for safekeeping. At this time of year, no one here in the village is thinking about the cricket world cup as opposed to the rest of the year in Switzerland when it's basically all people talk about. It's Svinger time.

It's what time? It's Svinger time, apparently. Is there an explanation of Svinger time? He gives an explanation. Swiss wrestling. Think Swiss farmers in an arena of sawdust. I'm pretty sure I had... I'm all sorts of images going through my head now.

Yes. I'm pretty sure I had a nightmare in which that happened once. The eventual national champion is then crowned de Koenig de Schweitz. Oh, wow. So, never mind a cricket world cup. It's all about de Kernig. All right. That sounds like the kind of sport that isn't going to be disrupted by

persistent drizzle as well. Well, presumably you can do that indoors, Swiss wrestling, yes. One would hope so. Yes. Although not, yeah, not when the hiking season is full flow, winter snow finally disappearing because that implies that, you know, wonderful waterfalls are forming and it'd be quite dampers up there, so you'd want to be indoors, wouldn't you? And there's sawdust involved, so very much like a wet cricket match.

Here's one from Mike Dodd, he says, really enjoying your podcast, currently listening to it on the beach in, oh goodness, okay, somewhere in Montenegro, I don't know how it's pronounced, Andy. Have you been to this place? No, I've not. Let's go for Nyevice. Newvice? I'm going to go with your first.

It's an awkward NJ at the start. So he's in Montenegro. That's what we need to know. Montenegro, Tick. Last night, Mike says, I tried explaining to a barman that myself and my partner were only staying until Friday

because I had to get back to play for Oakmere Cricket Club on Saturday. Needless to say, it was a struggle trying to explain the game to him. I wonder whether he did that in, was he speaking in English? English trying to explain the game or...

I don't know, but Montenegro surely is one of the great unexplored sleeping giants of world cricket. I would expect. I don't know where they were in the new expanded world rankings if Montenegro's... I think China was about 80th. World League cricket division 22? I don't know. I don't know.

Well, Montenegro. This comes from Dr. Stephen Collins. Hi, T.M.S. team. I'm currently listening from Accra in Ghana, where I'm working on a research project. I mean, that could be anything. I mean, what are you researching into? We need more detail, don't we, Dr. Stephen? Are you inside a fake volcano with a large rocket?

Your podcast is bringing a welcome cheeriness, says. Sounds like a very depressing. I was going to say. I mean, that has raised, in a very short email, that has raised a ridiculous number of questions, Stephen. Harry Horsham says, really enjoying the podcast. It's keeping me up to date whilst out on a UN mission in Timbuck 2. There we are.

That's got to be the gold star of places we are waiting to find somebody in Timbuck 2. Yes, he says it is a real place, Mali, of course. He says, I've introduced a number of the UN staff to the podcast. So you're keeping the residents, Sri Lankan, Pakistanian, Indian intelligence officers. There are a lot of, if you are listening to this and you do work for an intelligence service. There are an awful lot of coded messages if you play Alison Mitchell backwards. The TMS podcast, available every day during the Cricket World Cup. Well, notable, we haven't had too many from listeners in the Caribbean.

in, or the subcontinent, in fact. And I know we have an enormous listenership in St. Lucia and in the corners of Jamaica and up in the blue mountains. You want to hear from you. Yeah, we have been focusing on getting people to email in from non-crickety places. So we might be missing some of our core target countries. I think people in those countries just take for granted that we must know that they listen. But no, unless you've emailed us, we have no knowledge that you're listening to us. So get your emails in and we will tick off your country at all corners of the world that we are trying to cover.

so TMS at BBC.co.uk. And tell us where you're listening to us from. This is Moinelli. Make sure you subscribe to TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. It's very boring, actually. I've never heard one in my life, but it's worth a go. Why not? New episodes each day throughout the tournament.

You can also email the team on TMS at bbc.c.com. Where you can get stuck into them and tell them they don't know nothing about cricket. Right. Well, some retirement news today, because one of India's finest ever white ball players. Yuvaraj Singh has announced he's calling it a day, retiring. Earlier on, Kevin Howells, had a look back on his career in the company of Ebony Rainford, Brent, Tamal Mills and Andy's Osman. There's a quote from Yuvraj here saying, I am not available for the IPL.

I've retired from BCCI and International Cricket. I'm looking forward to play outside India in T20 leagues, Ebony. But, but, never mind T20. about 100? I'm 100% sure he will be keen to get involved in a bit of the action. Well, first of all, what an incredible career. And he's putting his name out there in the hat,

isn't he? I mean, there's so many leagues popping up. There's T20, there's T10, there's 100. You know, he could mostly go around the world now for another few years, as long as he can stay fit and healthy enough and get in the action. So he's put his name, well, based on that quote anyway, he's up for it. And I think the 100, there's not going to, at the moment, we're understanding there's no

India players being made available, they've not seemed too keen, but obviously with his retirement means he could possibly open up that as an option. Yeah, I think he's been quite smart, isn't he, in terms of the timing of his retirement, because he's obviously still not, you know, he's not at the peak of his powers anymore. He's not the player that he was maybe six, seven years ago, but he's still got a little bit in the tank. He's still a very marketable guy. He, you know, he's identified that if he maybe, he probably could have played another year of IPL, maybe another even two years, but I'm sure if he's understanding, he's very specific in that statement, wasn't he? He's retired from BCCI and international cricket, which means he's now free to do what he wants.

The BCCCI, of course, control Indian players and don't allow them to play in other T20 leagues around the world. So he's now available to do that, and I'm sure he'll pick up quite a few gigs, obviously not just with his cricketing ability, but with how marketable he is and draw in that Indian television audience. Poor old Juvraj. He spent a very short time at Yorkshire, and he seemed to spend his entire time sneezing and coughing. He picked up some sort of germ along the way, and I don't think he enjoyed himself particularly, but of the more serious nature, overcame cancer as well. And to come back and to be the crick as he was after that, it took some doing, I imagine. It's incredible, isn't it? I mean, the physical toll that would have taken on his body during that period. And, you know, it was really nice to see that he had a lot of support from his teammates.

but to actually bounce back and come back to international cricket. I think it's tough enough just keeping form and keeping yourself fit when your body has to go through that sort of turmoil to come back

just shows a sort of character he has that's supposed the support that he had as well so for me that's amazing the one memory you can't get away from when it comes to you is the six sixes against you at broad

and I think for me watching as a fan at the time I hadn't really seen that destructive kind of batting before six sixes in and over is quite a rare thing to witness and it was just special and I mean the face of Stuart Broad at the time

and the forore and the media but he really set a light of storm there so you know I wish him well I have no doubt if he gets a chance in some of these leagues he will hopefully set it a light as well he had over 10,000 international runs the vast majority of him in one day is he was a great one day batsman scored three test hundred but never quite cracked it

at test level but he's um I was thought he's a player that's like transcended stats of something completely majestic about your Rajan full-flown. What made those 6-6s so amazing was that he managed to hit six-sixes with incredible style and elegance, as I guess Sobers did in the famous one

back in the late the late 60s. But his stats are very impressive. 8,700 one-day runs. Average 36 strike rate of 87, which given that he played in a sort of earlier era of one-day cricket was very high. He's had 700s, batting five or lower. That's the joint highest alongside MS. Doney and Josh Butler. His peak as a

one day international player of the 2011 World Cup. He was a player of the tournament, scored 104 other half centuries. He was at the wicket with Dony when India won the final. But he also took 15 wickets in that tournament. He took a five for against Ireland. And then he took two wickets in the quarterfinal, semi-final and final. And we don't think of him as a particular threat with the ball. He averaged about one wicket every three games.

But in that World Cup hit a real peak of bowling. He became the first bowler ever to have two wickets in a quarter, semi-and-final of a world cup, shortly followed by Zahar Khan later, in the same game. Mitchell Stark also did it in 2015, but Yuvrage is the only player to have scored more than 300 runs and taken 13 or more wickets in a World Cup. So plenty of adulation for Yuvraja's career and more and more tributes, I'm sure, will come out in the next few days, very much how retirement should be. The A.B. DeVillia's situation, though, somewhat less clear.

In the build-up to this match, the South African coach Otis Gibson admitted that he was frustrated by having to deal with questions over former captain A.B. DeVillia's attempted retirement U-turn. In case you missed the story, De Villiers made himself available for selection on the day South Africa's squad for this tournament was announced. The move was rejected by Captain Fafdu Plessi and the selectors. Here is Natalie Jamanos and former South Africa captain Graham Smith on the situation.

It obviously is disappointing. I think in many ways just a mess, really. It's something that probably could have been managed better on both fronts. I think initially A.B.'s retirement caught everyone by surprise straight away off to the World Cup. I don't think he discussed it with anybody. But she kind of got the feeling that it was always going to come down to him wanting to be a part of the World Cup.

And maybe someone should have sat down with him in December. We don't know if it happened, but as far as I know, it didn't. And maybe should have sat down and said, okay, A.B., listen, we would love you in our plans or, you know, AB should have driven that. Whoever drive that should have happened. And someone should have said, okay, to play in the World Cup, this is what we need from you. And, you know, ultimately, when it did happen, I think the team made the right decision. It was too late, you know, for that.

And, you know, I think all in all, South Africa would have wanted him to play a part in the home summer, just even if he played a handful of games, really. So I think in the end, the way that it unfolded, the team had no choice but to stick to that decision. I mean, it would have been great to having me out this World Cup. Let me just say one thing. Abie's not a malicious guy. He's not a guy that causes hassles in the dressing room. He's not a difficult guy to manage.

But I think it just needed some planning. If anything, Abies really struggled with decision-making. in his career, you know, when to play, when to retire, and he's really grappled with that, and I think it's all ended in a big mess. I know at the MSL, the South African Amzanzi Super League, which was played last year in November, December, he was asked at a press conference whether or not he would consider coming out of retirement. And he said, no, he said he's happy with his decision.

This was in the beginning, middle of November, I think it was. He said he was happy with his decision and that he felt that this was the right way to go. So even after a few months of obviously thinking about it and maybe. deciding should I go to the World Cup or not and having a chance to just sort of really go through it. He said, I'm happy. Whether or not that is him just giving the PR answer to the press to say, yes, I am happy. We don't know, obviously. But I agree with Graham. The discussions probably should have still been had with him in December. Yeah, I mean, I'd like to think if I was captain the aside and you're going to World Cup and, you know, you're probably a bad alight and you, you know,

you have someone like that in the wings that can really win you a game single-handedly, you know. I mean, I would have liked to thought that I would have made an effort to try and get him back into the fold. I think the problem actually started a while ago when A.B., you know, there was this myth that he was picking and choosing playing for South Africa, when he wasn't playing every game and retired from this format, then came back. And I think it all stemmed from that. And I think that's why when A.B. retired, you know, he probably needed time away and felt that, you know, I need to be clear. And AB's the type of guy that, you know, he needs everybody to like him. Yeah, that's true. And that's the challenge in his decision-making.

It's not clear. It's just a mess that the South African team didn't need to deal with. I was still amazed how the story got out, I mean, and the timing of the story. But when you're nought from three, these things tend to happen. You know, in the end, AB is the one that's come out looking bad. And the South African team, yeah, really just didn't need anything else to manage. It's unfortunate a player of his caliber and what he's achieved in the game and for South Africa, you know, will probably be remembered for some of this stuff

and hopefully in time it will dissipate and people can remember the great cricket moments in his career and this is a side issue you know and it's a side issue yes but it's taken over the discussion because you know how the media are I mean that's our job in the media to create as much controversy as we can

build you up to pull you down it's all part of the package and as much as we may not like to admit it it makes for good listenership and readership and whatever else so yeah it's a it's a side issue, but it dominates to the discredit. And I think that's the point, you know, from a South African perspective, let it dominate

the media. But with behind the scenes, you know, the guys really, there's 15 players there that have the opportunity to turn things around at this World Cup. I mean, the whole AB issue for them needs to be a side issue. They need to almost channel and work through the noise and focus on their skills and how do they start winning games and getting performances under their belt. Otherwise, the AB issue and many, many others are going to become prominent in the press. I mean, at the moment, South Africa,

having their worst run at a World Cup ever, naught from three. And when you're in those positions, you know you're going to take punishment. The press are going to be on your back. The frustrating part is these stories that aren't relevant, you know, that get dug up and created, and, you know, you have to put out fires.

But, you know, from their perspective, they've got to try and put the performances on the board. That's the best way they can silence all this noise. And Natalie, certainly from a journalist, broadcaster's point of view, This is gold as far as the controversy, but I wonder if it is that there has to be a measure of journalistic balance in all of this as far as presenting the facts or stirring things up because you've lost your first three matches. So obviously, an AB DeVille is coming into the team is going to be, like the Messiah coming to save the team and all that, as nonsensical as it may appear. Well, I think that's the problem, though, within journalism in general.

if you look at the trend, because we've spoken about social media and the facts that social media have had, everybody wants answers now. They want something instantly. I think that's what's happened now with journalism in general with a trend. It's not about balance anymore. It's not about striking a balance. They're not trying to get both sides of the story. It's just about what will give us the most hits now. What will give us the most interest now? What will be trending? Those kind of things are what, it's become a part of journalism. And I think in a way, we're not getting both sides. the story anymore. It's not anything about balance anymore. When you read a lot of articles, it's not to say all journalists are like that, of course, but there's a lot of articles where it's just from the one side. What's the most dramatic? What's the most that people are going to get the most emotional about? And as a journalist, you want to create emotions, but you also want to create a situation with someone starts thinking about things and they think about it in a more balanced view. Right now, South African fans are angry. They're angry at obviously the protest in terms of the performances.

Three now losses in a row. They don't expect that. They don't expect them to lose to Bangladesh with all due respect to a team who's done really well in these last few years. They've done really well at World Cups as well. They locked England out at the 2015 World Cup. With all due respect to them,

but the South African fans don't expect them to lose to Bangladesh and they are now angry. But what that does, of course, journalists see that and they know I want to tap into that anger. I want to make sure that I keep that anger. there because people are then going to read my stories. They're going to make sure that I get the heads on my stories and it'll go through social media like a wildfire. And unfortunately, that is what we are living in right now. But I think from a journalist's point of view,

it is important to create that balance. And the way you create that balance, of course, is trying to get both sides of the story and speaking to people who have been there in those situations and not just speak about what this may do to the fans or the fact that South Africa have been poor. Why have they been poor? What's going on? What's happening? Get both sides at the storm. Grim Smith, as a captain, as a captain for such a long time, in such a dynamic environment as South Africa, how do you deal with that sort of situation? Well, these players would have experienced it for a lengthy period of time. Now, playing international sport has, you know, that's part of the deal, really. And, you know, unfortunately, well, fortunately, you need to find

a really even kill. I think the best players in the world are the ones that the strength comes from inside. They're able to drive themselves, they're determined. And the same with environments. I mean, if you spend your life, you know, as an international cricketer on the big stage, as a public figure, you know, defined by what, you know, you can go to breakfast in the morning, someone chirps you or, you know, and depending on what they say, they can be the outcome of your result or your day. You just can't. You have to build up an ability to deal with things and to handle things. I mean, in general, I used to stay away from the press. I mean, social media has changed. It allows the man on his, on his couch, really, to access

your brain and your thinking. So I used to switch off in those periods. I used to turn my social media off. If I wanted to post something or whatever, I'd go on and post, but not read it and turn it off again. And, you know, for me, my own mental state in the way I controlled it

and who I would speak to was very important for the way that I would perform. And I think that's a really important management tool for leaders within these environments today. How players deal with that? Just on the Avey story, I think he's done well just keeping quiet now and not getting involved.

He doesn't want to escalate it anymore. He knows it needs to be about the World Cup and it needs to be about the cricket. So I think the fact that he's stayed away from it and hopefully he will. Even though he's taking grenades and taking abuse, I think it's the right decision from him. The TMS podcast, available every day during the cricket World Cup.

So I've got two fearsome fast bowlers alongside me here with Kurtly Ambrose, part of our team throughout the World Cup, who devastated many attack for the West Indies. And also we've got Tamar Mills, England and Sussex, fast bowler who is terrifying batsman around the T20 circuit. So I want to have a chat to you both, really, about your journeys as fast bowlers, because it'd be particularly interesting, contrasting, of course, the different eras and the different formats of the game that you've both excelled in. But, Kirtley, let's start with you and growing up as you did in Antigua. Where did your fast bowling journey

begin? When did you first realize that you could send down that ball at pace? You know, growing up in Antigua, I played cricket like every other young boy in the village growing up on the beaches, in any open field, whatever the case might be. But that wasn't really, you know, what I wanted to do. Obviously, my mother was a cricket fanatic. She loves cricket with a passion. Always wanted a cricketer in the family. And my older brother, who used to play cricket first in Antigua migrated to the States to join my father. so since I was next a line

she kept forcing me to play cricket and I thought you know what I'm tired of this my mother behind me all the time as to play cricket so I thought I give it a try and I was quietly hoping it didn't work so at least she would say at least you tried

and funny enough I started playing club cricket back in Antigua when I was 21 that was the first time you played cricket seriously I played in school like I said you know full everyone like everybody else but I took it up seriously at age 21. And before you know it, you know, the year after that,

I was on the Antiguan national team. A year after that, I was on the Ljwood Island team. And in two years later, I was on the West Indies team. You know, so from between 20 to and 24, I became international cricketer. Just everything went so quickly. I guess my mother knew I have all this cricketing talent. So a lot of credit you have to go to her.

Your mother is still famous, isn't she, for going out on the balcony? Is there a flag or something she waves when you perform? you know, she, I mean, you know, reporters, they don't miss nothing, you know, and they came back from a tour and they were saying to me on an interview that they understand my mother rings the bell every time I take a wicket, which was very new to me, I never knew that. You know, so my mother really was a driving force behind me getting to cricket, and I have no regrets. You know, I think I've done reasonably well in international cricket. Did all right. So I had no regrets, really. Tamar, let's bring you in then. Obviously, a bit of an age gap between you and Kirtley,

so you don't have to remember so far back. So when you first started bowling in cricket. Yeah, kind of a similar story in terms of I didn't play cricket growing up, where I grew up in Suffolk. I went to state school and it was the private schools only that played cricket. So that wasn't kind of immediately available to me. I was similar to Kirli. I was playing football, basketball, athletics, everything.

cricket really and then I was at middle school and and literally one of my one of my mates teams were short one night for a midweek league game for Tuddenham Cricket Globe against Gaisley and he said oh can you can you come help me out after school so I went along and helped I'd messed around in the park and whatever at school and kind of the O Five Ashes was my first kind of cricketing memory and watching on TV obviously on on free to air TV and things like that and watching it and being kind of caught up in it that's kind of how I learned about cricket itself the rules and all that.

Just absorbing it through the television. So I played that first game, a village game, and they kind of gave me an over towards the end, you know, to say thanks for helping us out, really. I'd borrowed some whites off my mates, and I'm sure I would have had a cricket spike, so I was just wearing some trainers, and, yeah, I ran in and had a bowl,

and I hit someone on the body, I think it was on the shoulder or on the chest or something, and, you know, immediately it was kind of obvious that I could naturally kind of just bowl faster than the other people in that kind of scenario. I had no idea what I was doing with it. I had, you know, I'd bowl why, it's no balls. And then, yeah, I kind of just throughout that summer

then just played very socially with that group of mates on a midweek league after school or maybe the odd Sunday game, but not taking it seriously, so I was 14 then when I played my first ever game. And then I continued to play pretty socially up until I was 16 and then started to take a bit more serious, started playing Saturdays for kind of the local club

moved clubs, club called Milden Hall back in in Suffolk. And yeah, and then kind of got Suffolk County side under 16s, 17s. Then they passed me on to Essex. I had a trial game there. I think I took four wickets in a trial game for Essex 2s when I was 17. All bounces. So that's pretty much the only ball I could bowl back then. You could argue it's the only ball I bowl now. But yeah, just ran in. I could bowl fast. I didn't know what I was doing really. But I just bowled bounces. And then I kind of got offered an academy contract with Essex. Had some long days having to commute from Suffolk down to Essex, a couple of buses and a train to kind of a round trip from North Suffolk down to Chelmsford in Essex. And then, yeah, it kind of

all went from there. So you're both almost accidental fast bowlers in a way. Something like that. The accident was a happy accident, a very happy accident. I've never played youth cricket and all that stuff. So when I came into wrestling team or in the first class cricket, virtually unknown, no one ever heard of Kirkley Ambles and all that's tough and well nowadays most people know I'm sure Kelly might be the same as me he'll have to answer but

because it was kind of joined cricket late and I could bowl fast but that was pretty much all I could do I couldn't bat and I couldn't field because you know I didn't grow up having to bat or field so it took me a long time to you know bowling got me kind of so far I played England under 19s

but then as soon as you become a professional cricketer you have to be able to contribute with a bat and you have to be able to hold your own in the field sometimes so that's another thing that you really have to work on to catch up because you imagine kids nowadays playing from 7, 8, 9 they'll bat, they'll bowl, they'll play games of cricket twice a week or whatever because I know I didn't have that, that sounds like Curley was the same, it's something that you have to really work hard on to catch up with.

In bowling in itself, if you're not a bowler, it's the most unnatural movement really in sports. And so if you hadn't played Curley until you were 21, someone tosses you a ball and says, come and play in this cricket match and you're going to have a bowl. Were you essentially sort of copying what you'd seen others do at that stage if you hadn't had any formal coaching?

Well, I never had any formal coaching. Like I said, you know, I played like every other kid in Antigua in the village, full around. But the funny thing, everything came natural to me because even when I was much younger, I've never played cricket and all that apart from, you know. So I could bowl and bowl properly where guys who were older than I was

couldn't. So I guess I had that natural bowling ability from very early. And like I said, I was pressured into cricket by my mother because I just played a tennis ball cricket and bowl and, you know, people say, man, you can play this game, the real game. And I was like, nah, no, no, no.

When I think about cricket all day in a hot sun, I was like, not for me. We don't have the hot sun in English. Yeah, I was thinking basketball, in those stadium at nights 48 minutes no problem I could do that cricket all day

so I was really turned off you know even though West Indies were the best team I was going to say did you not have sort of cricketing West Indies heroes of your own not at all I only knew about cricket because my mother

was a fanatic and she got this small transistor radio all hours in the morning and West Indies in Australia whatever and used to know him because I couldn't understand what's the fun in listening to that but she really was a cricket freak, you know, so

well, she used to tell me, you know, growing up that she used to play cricket when she was in school and beat up on the boys and all that stuff. So I reckon, you know, I got her cricket jeans from her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tamala, who inspired you, though, I suppose? You talk about watching the 2005 Ashes. Did you sort of have someone who you idolised

as a fast bowler that you wanted to emulate? I'm not sure kind of emulate, but I think I enjoyed watching the kind of the spectacle and the drama of, obviously, you know, you watch Test Cricket now and it goes through ebbs and flows. And I think when there's that real kind of drama and, you know, when guys are bowling fast or, you know, they're getting hit or something, it's theater, isn't it? And it's drama and you enjoy watching that. I think that's what really kind of attracted me to it. And then as I started playing cricket more and got into it and started playing at a decent level, you know, you're seeing guys like kind of showback to Mitchell Johnson, these guys bowling fast because I, you know, that was what I could,

relate to at the time. As I said, that's all I could do. I could bowl fast. And so I was looking for other guys that also did that. So yeah, I'd probably say those guys, now I can obviously appreciate kind of all facets of the game a lot more. But yeah, back when I was growing up, I was looking out for guys, you know, like I said, Axtar, Johnson, Brett Lee, these guys that bowl seriously quick. Who was in your first international team then when you first broke into West Indies side? Were you bowling with Courtney Walsh? That's the sake. Yes, Courtney Walsh. I started back in 19. when I made my debut, Malcolm Marshall,

late Markle Marshall was there. He was our number one bowler, probably best in the world at the time. Coton Walsh was there, Patrick Patterson, Ian Bishop and myself came in the same year. And then he had a very strong team.

Haynes and Greenwich opening partnership, Richard Richardson, Viv Richards, you know, Jeffrey Dogeon. And so I came into a powerful team. And because of my pride,

because I'm a very, very proud man. And whatever I do, I always want to be the best. Want to make sure if the team wins, I help to contribute. So when I made the team first, I didn't want to be the weakling. Like, you know, in cricket, you know, got a marker Marshall and Walsh, you know, people say, okay, if you see those guys off, Ambrose, a wookie, we could take you with him. I never wanted to be that guy.

I want to be up there with the best. So I was forced to learn very quickly. I guess my pride, you know, played a big part. Was it never an intimidating team and bowling attack to walk into when you meant and Malcolm Marshall and he was so established and then you've walked into that team. Well, I had a luxury of playing with

Servive and Ritchie for the Leeward Islands before I made wrestling his team. So I had those guys in my corner to sort of stayed close to nurture me along. And I got into wrestling's team breaking the regional record for the most wickets. So I was flying high.

You need you belong. Yeah, I was like, you know what, I can do this thing. You know, so I was kind of cocky because, you know, and, you know, And then I was brought back down to Earth my first test match against Pakistan. You know, I took two wickets. I went for

over 100, you know, and that hurt me because, I mean, come out of regional cricket, breaking the record, flying high, I felt invincible. And I realized, this is a different league here. You know, so I was forced to come back to Earth, which work well for me. Because, you know, if it was

too easy, then I probably wouldn't have been the ball I was. So I was brought back to Earth, and I went to saying to myself, you know what, I'm never going to go for 100 again in test cricket, unless the ball at least 50 overs, because the ball, 28 overs or something, went for over 100, which to me, because I don't like give me ones away, I'll tell you that, so he hurt me deeply. And I say, I'm never going to go for 100 again. And I never did.

You know, I played 90 test matches, and I've only been to 400 once, that was my debut. And I went looking back at it, I said, man, you know, I should have gone through my whole career without going 400, you know. But, you know, it was a little experience for me. and I told you had a wonderful career. Talk me through your relationship with a batsman. When you're at the end of your mark, say it's a top order batsman, he's come out to the middle.

Talk me through what your mindset was, what you were always thinking to do, what your aim was and how you would then execute. Well, first of all, there's no relationship. Yeah, that's perhaps a poor choice of word. because but on a serious note though my job was basically to take wickets you know do whatever I have to do within the spirit and the laws of the game

to take wickets and you know I like winning I don't take losing very well you know so I've always believed that I'm good enough you know to to take wickets for not too many runs and I always think very big I don't think there's an investment good enough to beat me out of the attack.

I've always felt that I will be in control. Obviously, it don't always work. I've had my fear of licks. You know, where sometimes they're wondering where the next bucket is coming from. You know, but that's how I always think. You're not good enough. You know, and when I'm competing,

I'm always naturally aggressive. So when you see all that aggression and all that's tea and all that stuff, it was nothing that ever was rehearsed. It's just a natural part of me because, I mean, I'm 6-8, you know. I'm trying to intimidate. batsman you know so how how did that intimidation

manifest itself for you because my my memories of you were quite often less of a snar but actually you had this this way of smiling at a batsman just after you've either beaten him or struck him on the body there might be a smile and then I walk back to the mark and I think if a batsman ever saw the smile you know they think they were in real trouble yeah normally I mean I don't sledge I don't talk to the batsman I don't think that's part of cricket I figure that if you're good enough at what you do,

you let the ball do not talking for you. You don't have to be chirping and talking to the baseman to get them off the game. That's not part of my game. Part of my game is to give it a steer, you know. And to be honest with you, most of the times I'm not thinking anything. But Basman would think, I wonder what he's coming with next, you know? Look at him, he's so serious and he's steering me down.

And, you know, sometimes I do smile at the busman. If I've ever gone past the edge, it's not really a nice smile if you're thinking, okay? oh, he's going to go easy. Nah, that's not the case at all. You know, but I mean, I've always believed that I'm good enough to get you out. I don't care what the situation is. I don't care how much runs you're scoring.

I have to think that, you know what, I will get you out. So that is how I think at all times. From BBC Radio 5 Live, this is the TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup. So that was Kurt Le Ambrose and Tamar Mills. Really enjoyed chatting to them both about their respective careers and how fast bowling. has evolved and is evolving. The TMS podcast will be back, of course, tomorrow.

We are live from Bristol at 1015, Bangladesh against Sri Lanka. And then on Wednesday, of course, all this weather permitting in Taunton, Australia versus Pakistan. But whether it rains or it doesn't, we will always be on air and with you. And that could be a really interesting one

if Pakistan can pull out the same sort of performance as they did against England. India are back in action on Thursday, Nottingham, against New Zealand. and then England against the West Indies back here at the Hampshire Bowl in Southampton on Friday. So do make sure that you're with us for that. Live from 1015 Bristol tomorrow for Bangladesh against Sri Lanka. See you then.

Bye-bye. This is Owen Morgan. Thanks for listening to TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup. There will be a new episode each day throughout the tournament. It is such a good podcast that I listen to it before I bat, when I back, and after I back, Just so I can listen to Tuffers, give me some advice on cover drive, my pull shot, how I don't play the short ball, and my reverse suite, all those very interesting things.