Test Match Special - CWC Day 13: Swanny's guide to rain delays and cricket-loving corgis

Episode Date: June 11, 2019

Yet more rain means Sri Lanka and Bangladesh never even take the field but fortunately Graeme Swann and Paul Farbrace are in superb form as they guide us through what happens in the dressing room during rain delays, how not to coach a player and the mentality of a successful spin bowler. Plus, Dan Norcross and Andy Zaltzman debate the pros and cons of moving the tournament to Mauritania.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Available every day. Cricket World Cup. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. There's a mix-up. Oh, there could be a run-out. There will be a run-out. It's a tie.

Australia is in the final. Kevin O'Brien from nowhere has scored the fastest hundred in World Cup history. It's more than that's it. The West Indies have retained the title. And India have caused one of the greatest upsets in the history of all sports. It's all over. And England are out of the World Cup. That is absolute ignominably. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast with me, Daniel Norcross, on a day when momentous history was made. Here at Bristol in the match between Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, well, it was rained off. The second time we've had a complete abandonment at Bristol in the course of five days.

We'd only had two before that in the history of the World Cup. From BBC Radio 5 Live. This is the CMS podcast at the Cricket World. Cup. Andy Salzman, how do you feel to be part of history? Well, I mean, it's, that's what you dream of, isn't it? When you get into sport, whether as a player, competitor, or on the fringes of broadcasting, you want to see history being made, and that's exactly what we've been privileged to witness at this very, very wet ground.

And what I loved about it was that history took quite a long time to be made, didn't it? I mean, we felt the rain falling for 21 hours, and we arrived here, it was still falling, but the umpires gave every opportunity for a glimmers of hope to burst forth amidst the very doughty crowd. There was no glimmers of hope whatsoever and maybe talk about, again, cricket being a metaphor for life. Absolutely no glimmers of hope and unending dampness. A lot of people have been in touch today

to complain about England generally as a venue for a World Cup and to say that how on earth can you shed your World Cups here? Do you have an answer to them? Well, I do. I mean, there's a number of things. one, it's not so much scheduling in England as scheduling for this year when the weather turns out to have been bad. If only they'd scheduled it for a different year when they were worse better,

then people wouldn't be complaining. I do think there's a genuine... It's been, it's scheduled essentially later in the year the same time the start of the tournament as the previous World Cups in England. The 99 World Cup was earlier. It's just been unlucky, but I do think there is an issue with reserve days, which within the schedule

that they've got would have been possible, clearly a bit more inconvenient from a logistical point of view for the TV companies, the grounds, the players, but it does seem that that should have been factored in. Well, yes, that would have been lovely, wouldn't it? But it wasn't, and as a result, we got a very special privilege today. The TMS Podcasts, available every day during the Cricket World Cup.

So for the second podcast of a row with no cricket to discuss, as long as Andy Zaltzman with me, I do have Paul File Race, Graham Swan as well. I suppose different people had different ways of dealing with rain in changing rooms. What was... give me some examples well I mean there'll be people like him that you'd be trying to avoid for most of the time that would be the key thing

you just know that there's trouble around the corner so you stay away from as much as you can you get the nice gentle ones who they lay on the floor they read their book they read the papers whatever it might be this is your generation a few people could read remember that well there's only a few they're probably trading in pork bellies and orange

there was only a few yeah I mean see the other thing that when I play we had no mobile phones then mobile phones came in players They love the mobile phones. Obviously, here, an international game, they hand their phone in, they've got no phone. So they get off the bus, they hand their phone in as they're getting off. They don't see it until half an hour after the close of play. There's a lot of people with their thumbs literally twiddling, wanting to tap in and find out what's going on.

The manager has his phone, and very often it might be, oh, Phil, can you find out what the weather's like or find out what's happening here? But, you know, that's it. He's limited as well. So the poor manager gets bombarded. In the end, he disappears off because he's had enough of everyone asking him what's going on in the world. but people like swan you you definitely want to avoid on the daylight today the first hour was all right because i'd do the crosswords not the cryptic ones but the quick ones in all the big papers

and i used to enjoy like teasing some of the lesser um intelligent players ask what's this one brez seven down overworked post with how many letters millions and he played up to it every week um but once they were done Still going on, that joke. Yeah, of course it is. But once they're done, they're out the way. I mean, it's why me and Jimmy thick as Steve's because he's got a bit of grey matter and we'd sit there and do them.

But once they're done, it's, you know, you look around looking for a victim, someone you can, you know, just tease or play with or, and in Jimmy's case, it would be turn on Bres and just bring up the Yorkshire debate and just rip him to shreds. So you'd be very disappointed if your victim was dropped. I know, there's always a new one. was a new one. And I'm going to say this is done in

this isn't in a bullying way, like one former player would claim. You know, if you're popular, then people will tease you and talk to you. And how do you identify a bully? What's the, what's the, sorry, come on. How do you identify? How do you identify a tease, though? What's the sort

of person who's going to find one in the tape? Somebody can laugh at himself. Yeah. Or sometimes if they can't take it, it's even funnier. Or, you know, just go and move Jonathan Trots' cricket back by an inch or something. I don't know. I mean, I wasn't one for practical jokes. Ian Bell was a big practical Joker, and Joe Root, absolutely, before he was captain, before he became Mr. Mr. Duller's

dishwater, he used to be like, your annoying little brother, you loved him dearly, but you really did want to beat him up most of the time. Well, he's only like, it's not like socks sewn together, that kind of thing. I know, like cut the end off your socks, cut the end of your tie, Routrex in your underpants, cling from one of the toilet, you know, sausages down the end of your batting glove fingers, like mini sausages and stuff like that's key 1% that elite sports all about, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. The Ralejects in the underpants. But one of the worst things for the cricket, player was when the fitness trainer would pop his head in and then you'd see so many people look

really busy all of a sudden like doing token press-ups on the floor because you know he's coming around to some point tapping on the back come on let's go to the gym so the wise player goes straight to the gym before the trainer gets there has a coffee talks to the receptionist and then make sure just as he's leaving the fitness train is coming in with the lesser intelligent players who didn't realize what the game was you just you know you wet your towel and you wet your hair on the way out. Just did a course session and a bit of cardio. So how about during a game itself?

So a game that's not being rained off. You were a coach. Messages get sent out. What sort of messages actually do get sent out to players? Well, sometimes they're pure panic messages, aren't they? You have no control of the game. And Sri Lankan team were fantastic for that. Messages would go on, left, right and centre during my time with them.

With England, Trevor Bayliss never sent a message on. don't think in his life. It doesn't happen. Messages don't tend to, the only time is perhaps gloves go on and somebody might send a message back for the middle these days. It's more messages coming back than messages going out to the middle. So someone might send a message back. Yeah, what the pitch is like. What they think, the one was it was what they thought the pass score was, what the man in the middle. Yeah. Sort of after 15, 20 overs. So you knew how to pace your inings back in first. If the ball starts to reverse a little bit, that normally be a topic of conversation. batsman waiting to go and always want to know is it swinging is it when's it reversing

has it started to tail those sorts of conversations come into play but there aren't too many issues going out to the middle so were there players because obviously there are a lot of tales about geoffrey boycott and we have no idea if they're apocryful or not in which for example there's the one about the leg spinner isn't it what was his name he picked his googly we didn't tell everyone gleason that's it and uh and blake comes down and says i've worked it out three weeks you're well, I'm not dulling, et cetera. So were there ready players latterly who'd be like that?

Or was everybody really sort of free and easy with information and helpful? I don't know who it is. I think it was Dominic Cork, actually. They'd worked out Alan Donald's slower ball, the sign that Alan Donald had for Warwickshire for his slower ball, and it was like, I think it was rubbing the ball on his left bottom cheek just before he turned.

But it was causing him chaos, and it was the last day of the championship game. They had a one day coming up. So, like, right, we've worked it out, but don't let on. And in the one day, we can take him apart. And I'm sure it's Dominicog who sort of saw him do it. And the championship game said ran down the wicket, hit for six. So he gave the game away.

Oh, no, that's ruined that one. Thank you. Generally, players are open to sharing. I think that's one of the things. I mean, there's so much footage that players have these days. And the conversations around the footage, they're sharing the whole time. So players are very open. And it's not a secretive thing where people are trying to keep it to themselves to stuff other people out of sight.

I think that definitely happens. But presumably, obviously, you've got a very different change of room when you're batting from when you're bowling. In your change room, I'm thinking England, when they're at sort of the height. And I'm imagining the batting, when you're batting, there's more of you together. Well, they talk me through the dynamic of what I was in like. Well, actually, once the game goes on, all the cajoling and the messing around stops, especially in a test match. you know when the bowlers come off

you tend to they put the shorts on put a pile of towels on the couch and go to sleep whilst they're about to start they're not

that include you as well yeah yeah I would always I love a Kip you know Phil Tuffin was my hero I copied everything he does but yeah

yeah that's not the time for messing around so because there's people waiting to go into bat and so some people would be nervous and walk around talking to everyone

nervous energy some people would sit there in silence people would shadow bat for hours like Trottie would honestly just against a playing right or just play shot after shot after shot

would he scrape his crease in the changing no he didn't do that um but yeah so when the game's going on nothing of the light happens it's all very that's why in test matches when we were doing well when we were scoring big totals when alaska cook was in the purplest of purple patches they're wonderful places

they're very relaxed great place for everyone's happy on the other flip side of that when things aren't going when you're losing a lot of early wickets the tension is palpable in there and the coach is on edge and someone will say something just say that, I don't know and then that's when you start

to get divisions within the team so hence when you're doing well it's very easy to have a happy shiny smiley change room as soon as you start doing badly you know that's when cracks start to appear and badly often feels like you know collapses

and we watch these and you know also when you're involved in club cricket whatever you sort of feel when a collapse is happening do you get that in Let's look cricket, you get that sense, uh-oh, this feels like a do-da-d-d-d-dum. And if so, how does it manifest itself? It by the palpable sense of tension in the air. And, you know, people frantically putting their pads on

rather than sort of cruising around and people biting their nails, people like staring at replays on TV. Yeah, it's human nature that you start to panic. Is there anything you can do as a coach to alleviate that? Because you must have, I mean, I don't mean, you must have presided over a lot of collapses, but you would have seen it. Every coach has.

It's interesting because you're absolutely right about the tension because it goes quiet and then you try and say something to something upbeat and fun and people just look at it as to say they're doing that for, be quiet. But there'll be people not sure whether to laugh or not or whether. It's tough because you've got the batsman coming off who are obviously disappointed they're out. You've got the next ones who are waiting to go in and it might not be a long way. And when you have that, the amount of times that you have a discussion afterwards and say, what could we have done differently?

What could we have done in that situation? Because you're right. You can feel it in the change room. The players know it's happening. And it's tough that the last one, the big one that I was involved with was in Auckland against New Zealand. We were bowed out for 50 somewhere.

We were 28 for 9 or something. Yeah. And it was really odd because you've got a viewing area upstairs being the rugby stand. You've got the change room downstairs, which is huge and massive. And it was literally people were flying down from the viewing room, getting their pads on out.

And it just wasn't time or space to grab anyone and calm things down and before you know where you are you're 28 for 9 and you look back on it in the evening and you think I wonder what we could have done could we have done anything different

but it just gets you it grabs you and before you know where you are you're into it that the dressing room goes very quiet as you say any any remark gets looked at and can be taken either way and it's just a horrible atmosphere

to be involved with you got to remember as well saying well just don't be nervous don't do that it's like saying don't have a headache or don't have a sore back you have no control over it It's how you manage that.

But when you've got a team of 11 different disparate individuals thrown together, so I'd always try and have a light-heart quip or comment because my way of dealing with it was to have a bit of black humor about it all. Like, oh, what's the lowest score ever? Come on, we get a world record, yeah. So when you're 24 for 8, it's like, well, I'm not getting it. I'm leaving the first one now. I want to get in the record books.

Which, of course, to the two or three players around you who inevitably are your closest rendered in the team, they'll expect it and they'll laugh. But when your coach overhears you by accident, Andy Fowell's not going to take that as well. And you might get into a spot of bother every now and again for things like that. Particularly if you do that.

Yeah. But, you know, me and Andy are firm friends now, so it's cool. Are there any reactions at all from batsmen players as they come off that actually exacerbated? Because sometimes we look at, as broadcasts as we are watching players and we see the collapse happening.

And sometimes we think, well, he's conveyed by getting out and then looking so distraught, he feels like he's actually made it worse that he's going to come back into the changing room and he's going to dump a load of anxiety on the team. Well, actually, the explosion in the change room, you can see it coming in a mile off.

You know which players are going to do it, and you know which ones do it because they are genuinely just angry at the world because they're batsmen, they've been given out and that was never out. They was never hitting despite it being plum on TV, but they're real batsmen. And, you know, tantrums and changes

can be hilarious to witness if you're around a corner. You don't want to be within the eye line of anyone sort of smirking while you're putting your pads on. But they don't have, weirdly, when there's a big collapse, you don't really get restroom bus up. It's when it's a flat one, and the battlesman gets 20-odd and then gets given LB,

and Roy Palmer's never like me. He always gives me out sort of thing. Then they're hilarious. So in a collapse, you're actually getting more of the sort of shell-shock look at you. It is, yeah. It is, yeah. And nobody really knows how to react in that situation.

Even experienced coaches, what can you do? What can you say? You can't suddenly stop the procession and you can't dump your thoughts. I mean, it's easy when you're sitting there sometimes and someone stands up, pick their gloves and bat up to go in. And you say, play straight, you know, get stuck in. Play straight, be great.

And you're dumb, a load on them. And they're like, they must think, you're idiot. You know, nothing you can do in that situation. See, what I found out that when you're next in and the wicket falls, this is the one time I thought Andy's going to kill me, standing up saying, soon a minute, isn't the ideal thing to do. Yes, that's suboptimal, Graham.

There's a brilliant one, actually, Merv Hughes. And it wasn't part of a collapse, but he apparently was very annoying in addressing me, especially if things were going well. So he would then just walk around and, you know, pinch your back of your neck and stick his tongue in you in all day long. But, you know, Merv being big Merv. And Dean Jones was captain of Victoria,

and they'd put on loads and loads near the end of the day at Adelaide, and Merv started going, be night watchman. Come on, skip. Let me do night watchman. Merv, you're not doing night watchman. Oh, please, skip. I always want to do it. Please let me be night watchman. In the end, Murf, just stick your pads on, just to shut him up. Spinners on, he gets a wicket. So Merva has to go in. There's like two overs left. And everyone's round the bat, apart from a deep midwicket.

First ball, charge he's down. He's caught deep midwicket. And so the coach and Dean Jones are like, they're fuming. They are ready to kill him. They're ready to set up. You know, ready to swing punches when he gets off. And he just walked in the train. You look to him. What's the matter? Skip? You never get a goodon first up. Sorry Andy, you were poised with your microphone I was going to ask about collapsing because it's one of the endless fascinations of cricket

and it's an individual game and a team game simultaneously so there are certain players or are there certain processes I guess as a coach when you've got to collapse to try and almost sort of arrest that process and get players focusing as if it's a normal level is in that situation when you have a collapse if there's a coach you start to intervene

it looks like you're panicking so actually you're better off sitting back and letting the lads get on with it. And then you can moan at them afterwards and say, you know, you should have done this, you should have done that. But it's very difficult in that situation because once the wickets do start to fall, as I say, the danger is that any intervention that you come up with

can look like panic. And that just adds to the tension, it makes it worse, and sometimes you're better off just letting people be. And because everyone's different. So, you know, at any one stage of a game of cricket, different people will be nervous for different reasons. So I'd turn up for day one of a test match, feeling like it was a Sunday afternoon,

I was going to back to play a game of village cricket. There's no pressure on me at the start of that game. If we bat first, I get to lie down. If we bowl first, Jimmy and Brody have to bowl till lunch. I'll probably bowl 20 overs today. I know I'll get go for 40 runs. Might get the odd wicket. Brilliant. But on day five,

scene bowlers, you know, Brody, if you don't get five today, you're rubbish, mate, putting his trainers on. And then all the tension of the game is on me to win the game. So it's very difficult. You can't just say one thing that's going to work for the whole team. Did you bowl better with that? that attention or absolutely i used to live for that i used to want to be center of attention

want to be man of the match and so i love day five but i i won't deny absolutely adoring first two days of a test it was all about soaking up the atmosphere you know laughing at myself in the movie thing how you're actually playing for england you're living the dream here because we'd always speculate up here again about those players that that really do relish that and the ones that don't so i don't i have no idea whether we're right or not so we sort of see for example monti panisar having to the pressure to bowl someone out on day five and i'm thinking That was a sort of pressure that was more suited to you, perhaps, than to Monty. And that's the point that I come back to about coaches.

You know your players. So the more you get to know your player, the more you get to know their personality, the more you can help them. So in this situation, you're doing everything you can from about T-time on day four through day five to your spinners. You're trying to take the pressure off. And you're actually lightening their load, and you're making sure your conversations are not adding to their pressure.

If the ball's swinging around at Lord, you're not going up to Jimmy just before he goes out and says, God, mate, it's a great time to get Fyfer here, isn't you? You know, that's not the time that you do it. It's when it's a bit flat, and, you know, a Stuart board is, you know, into a spell, and it's a bit flat, and he comes off at lunch or tea, and you think of things to help him encourage him. They're the times where you earn your money, not when you add pressure onto a play.

You know, bloke's just about to go out to bat, and he's in a bit of a tough drop. You're not going to go up to him and say, you know, make it stuck in and fight it. You know he's going to do that. It's about picking the right time, the right moment, to have that conversation with the player. So we go back to the Warner conversation earlier. you know justin lang will be picking the right time between the last game and the next game to have that conversation and sometimes it might be at the team hotel it might be you know over a beer of an evening

might be over some food you've got to pick the time to have that conversation mushy um i adore moushtarman he was the greatest coach i ever had he never ever gave me a bit of technical advice never even asked about how i gripped the war didn't even bother he was that he was basically my my rock if you like he was someone i talked to all the time i remember coming up at Lord's wants, absolutely fuming because I was bowling like a drain and it was turning

and I was really angry with myself that was completely affecting the way I bowed. I was getting more head up. I was tightening, I was bowling garbage, basically. And I came off at tea time and he just said, who cares, man?

This cricket, who cares? You have beautiful wife, two beautiful children, son will come out tomorrow, who gives a boop? And you know what? And I thought, actually, you're spot on, who does care?

And inevitably went out, Hollywood ending, too far but bowled a lot better but it was just that he knew to get me to perform was just to make you stop because everything in my personality means if I'm taking something too seriously or outwardly then I'm going to be half as effective so as a as a coach you're sort of being more of a counter in this sense yes absolutely you are international cricket you're not you're never talking well you're very seldom talking about technique you're talking about you're reminding players of why they're good players.

You remind them why they've played so many games through England, why they've taken so many wickets. You remind them what their skills are. And you remind them to have a bit of fun along the way. You know, there were players that you can see that they're getting intense, they're getting uptight with themselves in practice. That's not the time to go down and say, you know,

have you thought about getting your up a bit higher? You leave them alone and you catch them at another stage. There are certain people, Alistair Cook, if you ever walked down the net when he was having his net, absolutely wasting your time. He had no interest in listening to you. But he might do the next or that evening, he might say, did you say anything today?

And I was practicing. Gary Balance is another one. You don't walk down the net when Gary Balance is batting. That's his time to bat. He wants to hit as many balls in that time as he can. If you want to have a chat to him, you find another time to do that.

There are others that really want you to go and talk to them and chat to them about stuff. And that's the, you know, that's the bit between knowing what players like a little bit of technical input, a bit reminding. Others, you talk to them about completely other things. You don't even talk to them about cricket

and just make sure their frame of mind is right. I tell you one man actually who is an unsung hero, most people in the world will not know him in the England dressing room who is one of the greatest things for morale is the massage therapist Mark Saxby. He is just this large, he's not larger than life, he's just the most affable, cheery character in the world who bounces around, always smart, always laughing,

it just got a very human quality, he could put anyone and everyone at ease at any one point. And so, I know for a fat Andy Flour, he said, just go in there and talk to him, just, you know, and he always recognised whether to mess around. You must love sacks as well. He's still exactly the same now. He's the greatest thing in that dressing room. And Reg Dickerson, the security guy, the two of them, they play a brilliant role.

When things get a bit under pressure and a bit tough, they're the two that front up. They're the ones who become a bit more visible. They get into the dressing room. They allow themselves to become a bit of a punch bag, a bit of, you know, you're talking about people that you can get into. You know, they almost bring that on. So they bring a bit of humor, they have a bit of fun. they take the make out of one another they allow people to get into them a little bit

and they just ease the tension and they do it in such a brilliant way and you're absolutely right Sachs has been around the England team for a long time and he's the one that when you're struggling a little bit you're away from home and struggling Sax fancy a coffee

and you go and have a coffee and you chat things through the world seems a better place after absolutely. Hi this is Josh Butler thanks for listening to the TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup I don't really listen to it because I enjoy the Peter Crouch one more

and Taylor Anders is all right but if it's any good You can also email the team on TMS at BBC.co.uk. Put podcast in the title and explain the rules of cricket to them. Laws of cricket. Andy's Altsman still with me. We're going to have a chat about spin bowling. And Salts, you want to kick this one off?

Graham's going to ask, I've always wondered, as a spin bowler in international cricket, how far ahead are you planning when you're bowling in terms of, you know, individual balls getting batsmen out, but in terms of patterns of delivery, sequences of deliveries. How do you function? Very much depending on who was batting, how long they've been batting, how good they were,

how confident I was to get them out. So if any left-hander walked in, I would want the ball immediately before they'd face another ball because I know I'm going to bowl balls he definitely doesn't want to face. Drifting in, pitching on and around off, I'll back myself to pitch exactly where I want.

If it goes straight on, hits him on the pad, if it turns, I'll bring my fielders in or bowling. So I'm the worst possible bowler for this left-to-face first up. He wants to leave a couple off seem we get his eye in and then be confident to use his feet and stuff so straight away i'm thinking i'm

going to get him out every ball with the right-hander i want to bowl again as early in this as possible because i'm not a mystery bowler so i know the first 20 balls to say i bowled him are my best chance of getting him out beating him in flight whatever so a lot of bowlers and i think a lot of people go wrong with this i used to get asked why i get a wicket in my first over a lot and i used to pretend i just fluke or voodoo ha ha be tongue and cheek about it. I knew exactly why it's because I tried to. I tried from ball one. I didn't want, I wasn't interested in seeing how it came out or, you know, let's start with fielders out and bring one in if you bowl well. Nonsense. My first six balls, I'm going to, I've done this all

my life. I've bowled, I've done my 10,000 hours. I'm good at this. I'm going to run up and I'm going to get him out before he makes me, you know, look stupid. Whereas a lot of bowls will bowl at the first day, we bowl through to the keep his gloves, get a bit of rhythm, see how they feel and then start attacking. I couldn't afford to. to do that. So I would desperately try and get them out early on. If they were then in and they were batting well, then you play a longer game. Sometimes it takes two or three hours to, you know, you might ball three or four overs of one particular ball, at one particular pace, knowing that, right, in 20 minutes time, I'm just going to hold this back a bit. I'm

going to put extra spin off the second knuckle run the first and do it so he doesn't notice and he'll just lunge forward because I've got him into a rhythm and he's going to get short leg, caught a short leg, it'll dip on him, it'll bounce. And when that works, and my massive one was bowling someone through the gate, so I'd bowl a lot without much top spin on, and I'd let them push, push, maybe drive a couple through the offside,

and then my big ripper with a lot of drift and dip to try and get back through the gate. When that works, it's the greatest feeling for a spin bowler on the planet. There's a lot of talk about English spin bowling and why they're not as prolific, and how come I did well, how can Monty did well?

I truly believe that the way teams are captained and it's still prevalent in this game still and I talked to at level four I was asked to go in and talk to all these are all guys I played with and against most of them older than me when I first played some of them taking me apart down the years but they they were all

I'm not big in myself up enraptured by what I was saying because it was so different to anything that been coached because I said as a spin bowler the last thing in the world that I when I come on to bowl I know I'm vulnerable I'm 50 miles an hour I've all spent especially of your young spinner you know

that. So my way of getting over that was even if I wasn't confident, I would convince myself this is going to go well. I'm going to get him out. A skipper coming up straight away saying, you're not having a short leg, you'll land a few first. So straight away, even if he's meaning it in a nice, even if he says it nice, say, how about you get into you and then we'll put one

in? That is chipping away at your self-confidence. The more I played and the better I got, you get more trust from the captain. And by the time I played for him, I was allowed to set my own fields because of the record I had to that point. And this was my greatest thing that used to and it still winds me up a treat and you'll see it you'll hear it all

summer spinner comes on to bowl say a batsman walks into bat so for me brad had him before he's faced a ball i'm having a deep midwicket i don't give him monkeys if athrus or beef he say oh you've got to see him play at first the worst thing i can ever hear let's see him play at first it's an very english thing i want my long on back no he's got to hit you over the top before you put it back no he's not as a bat when i batted if there's There's no deep midwicket. As soon as it's in that area, I'm slogging it for four. So I know I'm not going to get out doing it.

I might miss hit it and I still won't get caught. You take away everything that the batsman wants to do. And say an aggressive player comes in like how he really was. He wanted to play that lap stog or hit me over at Long Island. I'd put them both back straight away and he'd milk you for four or five singles. I don't care about that because I know the little man on his right shoulders saying, come on, take him on, take him on, hit him over the top, hit him over the top. And you'll get him out.

So we had some great battles over the time. but he would get caught in the wicket a lot. And so I didn't see the point of letting him get 30 or 40 before I was allowed to put men out because there's a spin bow. You basically, you're in charge of it. You don't let your captain decide what he wants, you to think and everything.

You're bowling, you're taking the wickets, you insist on it, which is very difficult to do as a young spinner. So I was saying to these guys, just let them have the field they want. That's the way their confidence will grow. They'll emerge from that. They will be better cricket.

in the long run, but it's very difficult I understand with the short term short term in his move of cricket, but I've got to pump it there. That's where O'I Morgan, I think. You watch Rashid bowling test match in one day cricket. O'E. Morgan captains Rashid unbelievably well.

Absolutely. You never ever see him do anything other than praise him, support him. He's always smiling when he's talking to him. You never see him. Puts him on to bowling difficult petitions as well. And he backs him to bowling difficult conditions. And he talks him up. He talked him up. The other person who's key, absolutely key, for Rash and Moe, is Josh Butler.

Whenever you see Josh Butler talking to Moe and Rash at the end of an over, they're smiling, they're having fun, there's a bit of banter going on. It takes the pressure off them the whole time. And between Morgan and Butler, they play a massive role in these two being so successful as spinners. And we tried for a while talking about, and I know that Graham took a slight exception to this, but we talked about Mo being the second spinner. and we played that one series where Dawson played against South Africa the first two Tess matches.

And we were talking to Mo about being the second spinner and actually trying to take the pressure off him. And that was the only reason we ever used to talk about being the second spinner. It wasn't because we genuinely thought he was a second spinner. It was because we tried to take the pressure off it. And we tried lots of different things. So we tried outwardly to talk about him in that way. Josh Butler coming into the England side

and being around the England side for those two in particular is a huge, huge player for them too. you watch the body language when he's keeping the nose to a bowling. It is absolutely massive connection between them. But Morgan captains them to so well. It is fantastic with a pair of them. He never, and even in the change room after a tough day, he talks them up.

He talks them up the whole time. Rush's plan in one day cricket is four for 80 every time. Get the ball up, spin it, take wickets in the middle overs, so they've got less wickets in hand in the last ten overs. doesn't matter how many runs you go for. It's not about how many runs you go for, forget the runs, it's about taking wickets, that is the most important thing. And also,

Morgan's bowled Mowin in the power play quite a bit, hasn't it? Trust me, as a bowler, when you're throwing the ball, when, you know, desperate times, do real tricky over, the captain looks for you and throws you the ball, even if, you know, absolutely, you're like a big dog

and you go, oh my God, the actual, the belief that the captain's just shown in you is worth 10 games lost, I reckon, immediately because somewhere down the line, that bottle will be magnificent for you when you need him. Andy, what are you looking at? What's you looking at?

Let's look at Moe in Alley's stats. He has an amazing fourth innings record in test cricket, 59 wickets, average 22. And also, I don't know if there's anything in this, but he's been much more successful when he's bowled earlier in the inning. So when he's bowled third and fourth, his average is low 30s.

And when he's been the fifth bowl he used, it's mid-four. That's something saying for you straight away, that's the same point. You're the fifth bowler used, you know full well, you're the fifth one, the skipper thinks he's going to take a wicket. Is it more important then for spinners to get into the action earlier? Because someone's got a bit of fifth bowler. Someone has, but on the second is a bit more vulnerable.

Second innings of a game, if I was captain, the spinner would be the third bowler I used every single game. Because I don't think opening bats from play spin bowling very well, to be honest. Well, you open against West Indies at North Indies, was it? Yeah. He was dreadful against me. Yeah. When you want to get the best out of somebody, when you get the best out of Marion Alley,

you make them feel the sense piece of your team. You give them the responsibility. You have to pump Mowen's ties. My main frustration was that Mowing's better than that. Yeah. And we knew that. We knew that, but we were trying to find a way to take the pressure of him.

Do you think he still believes that he's a world-class spin-ball? I think he does. I think his confidence has grown nonstop. I hope he does because that's been my biggest bug bear with him. that after his first you know he did so well against India in his first summer and Cookie asked me to go and talk to him in Barbados and he's the first line he said to me

which absolutely blew my mind was I know it's going to be a lot harder this year because people have seen me now and honestly I could have tore my hair up because yes that's what the media say second season syndrome people will ram that down your throat

and they had to him the point that he believed it and I said to him the balls that got your wickets last year against India against top class players will always get you wickets in test cricket. They will never stop game. Nathan Lyon doesn't bowl any different balls than he ever used to, but his confidence is such. He puts it where he believes in himself.

He's got bravado, he's got puffs his chest out. Batsman play him, not the ball. Please don't go into your shell. And I think moment's taken three years longer than it needs to get to where he is, wickets and confidence-wise, because he believed in everyone from the outside. And that is very hard to control. How much did your first...

over in test cricket when you got two wickets. When you were coming into that, were you absolutely confident you were going to succeed as a test player? And how much of that won over? Not at all. My first over in test cricket made me as a test cricketer because I'd never from the age of playing

when I got the ball to buy my first ball at Chennai and I'd loved every minute of the game up until then, I got the ball and I just at the end of my mark and my knees would turn to jelly and the ball felt like a ping pong ball. It felt like it didn't have any weight in it. And I thought I was going, Jesus, you know, I'm nervous here.

And I was putting, you know, big face. I ran up in ball. My first ball, it could have bounced four times. But it was a ranked long cop, got hit for four, which is brilliant. Because I remember, I've always been the glass half full, man. I thought, thank God that didn't go for six. But I remember walking back, I walked back to my mark and thought, well, that's out of the way. And then suddenly the ball felt normal.

I felt normal. The second ball, there was a big appeal for caught short leg. I knew it wasn't out. I appealed anyway. And the next ball, I hit Gambier, padded up, and it hit him in front. And I knew it was out, straight away. And it was a long appeal, long appeal, and he was given. And I thought, brilliant, yeah, I've got a wicket.

Didn't even think, I've only bowled three balls. And it was Raoul Dravid coming into bat at that point that made me realize what test cricket was. He is, I bowled it before. He was singly the most humiliated man to bowl that. He would toyed it, wonderful player, not at all in your face, very, just lovely man. but toyed with you as a bowl, and made you feel completely worthless, manipulate your field,

maneuver, you bowed two good balls, he'd use his feet, and it just felt like I wasn't good enough to bowl him in counter cricket. He walked out to bat in Chennai with eyes like dustbin lids, the whole ground screaming, like India stopped to watch the wall come out to bat,

and I got him out third ball, Elby with, I'll watch it back now, a delivery that would never, ever get him out in county cricket. Over the wicket? Over the wicket, he just prodded forward, LBW, just turned.

It was dreadful batting. someone who wasn't playing Graham swan the Spinnard smash before he was playing the occasion he was playing everything so two weeks my first over but that ball alone I thought that's it if I'd forever treat this like a game of club cricket like I'm playing with my mates on a Saturday like I believe I'm the best player because when you turn out and you're a you know a countercru you go and play club cricket you are the best player by miles you walk in the ground you know you're going to get 100 you know you're going to get five wickets the opposition see they know you're going to do it ergo you do it's

that simple the higher you go when you start to question yourself and before I played test cricket I'll happily admit the night before I was thinking what if I'm not good enough what do I have what you know what if I can't bore the magic balls you need to get wickets in test cricket and I prove to myself within six balls you don't need to ball magic balls you just need to believe that you're better than the other bloke he needs to look at you in that man on man contest and believe that you've got one upon him available every day during the cricket world cup this is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live so we'll say a fond farewell to graham swan

Paul Farbrace, but I still have Andy Zaltzman with me for our traditional bound through the emails that we get in, from people from far-flung places around the world. Can you fling a place? That's always struck me as a strange expression. I wouldn't know to explain a few things, isn't it? Anyway, you're distracting me.

Dustin Yardy, he remarkably becomes our first listener to email in from India. And he says, Hi, Team, currently enjoy your podcast while travelling on one of our heavily crowded local trains in Mumbai. I work as an online sports journalist here and your podcast offers

wonderful perspectives as I cover the World Cup from over here. Now, you must have been on a crowded train in Mumbai a few times. Not a very crowded train. I was in Mumbai with some Indian friends and they refused to let me on a suburban train because they didn't think I'd be able to cope with it. It is

as close, I mean it straddles that fine line between commuting and extreme sport essentially. And I mean, I guess, you know, if you're someone who does not believe in the need for doors on transport then it's very much are they doorless

the train for you I didn't realise that now look listeners those of you listening in from around the world we've got most of the teams that are playing in this World Cup but currently we have no representatives from Bangladesh

Pakistan South Africa or Afghanistan so pull your fingers out people we need emails from you lot have we had Sri Lanka yet we've had Sri Lanka oh right that's good what a result for Sri Lanka

unbeaten in three, surprise package of the tournament, four points from... joint second on points. They could get through, couldn't they? They are no results at this rate. They'd be singing and dancing in the streets of Gaul. Four games into the World Cup, their joint second, and their numbers four to seven have scored nine runs between them. That's got to be some kind of a record. This comes from Matt Collins, who writes, hi, TMS team.

Just a quick email to tick off Barbados from the listenership list. After Alison Mitchell's request for messages from the Caribbean, and my family and I are currently living here as I'm working on a new resort. As ever, I'm very much enjoying the TMS coverage. It is the highlight of the day for me and my two corgis, Henry and Herbie.

How do they manifest their delight, do you suppose? Well, I don't know. I'm assuming that the corgis in Buckingham Palace listened to nothing else but TMS, both current broadcasts and classic recordings of... John Mosey? And the like. Well, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

That's why they always look so happy those corgis Also they're immortal I had no idea That's very true You never hear about a dead corgi do Well just technically One corgi is a corgous Of course

Second de glenchon We're up to 75 countries Oh that's pretty good I think It's very very good It's terrifically good But there are a couple of countries That are still proving tough nuts to crack North Korea

For example Well that's just true On a broad global scale isn't it? That's the history of civilisation. It is. But if you're listening in from, for example, Djibouti, or South Sudan, or the Central African Republic, or... Mauritania, I think, we're probably still missing. Western Sahara, if that is yet a country. You're really naming a lot of countries where they probably haven't had as much rain as Bristol over the past two to three thousand years?

I would think so, and they've probably been out and about, haven't they, enjoying the warmer weather. Oh, hang on. I've got information. Sidant emailed in from Mauritania, so we do have Mauritania. Sensational. So if you're in Mauritania, don't bother. Move to another country nearby,

like Gabon or Togo or similar, or any of the other ones that we don't have. We should put a list up on the website, you know. Yeah. Don't you think? And then we should, you know, then next time we do this, we can just put out an appeal to all of them.

Maybe. I mean, if the cricket World Cup was taking place in Mauritania, I bet there would have been fewer cancelled games. Yeah, would the crowds be as large? That's a question, isn't it? I don't know. I mean, the outfields would be quite sporting, I would imagine. We suit. The teams are good spinners, I think.

Imagine those pictures would crack up under the Saharan sun. This is Owen Morgan. Thanks for listening to the TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup. There will be a new episode each day throughout the tournament. It is such a good podcast that I listen to it. Before I bat, when I bat, and after I bat, Just so I can listen to Tuffers, give me some advice on my cover drive, my pull shot, how I don't play the short ball and my reverse sweep, all those very interesting things.