Test Match Special - CWC Day 2: Windies humiliate Pakistan with bouncer barrage

Episode Date: May 31, 2019

Curtly Ambrose joins the pod as the West Indies get their World Cup campaign off to the perfect start with victory over Pakistan at Trent Bridge. He chats their hostile bowling, being able to hide Chris Gayle in the field, and his experience on TV reality show 'Dancing with the Stars'. Plus, Jos Buttler interviews friend and team-mate Adil Rashid on the secrets of successful leg-spin in white ball cricket.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Andrew Rashid. Welcome to the TMS podcast of the Cricket World Court.

There's a mix-up. Oh, there could be a run-out. There will be a run-out. It's a tie. Australia is in the final. And straight towards Stokes, it takes an incredible, one-handed catch.

Unbelievable. Oh, that's gone. That's the red ball breaker. Over she comes, into the stands. And Chris Gale becomes the highest ever six-hitter in World Cup cricket. Hello, welcome to the TMS podcast on the second day of the Cricket World Cup and the West Indies have got their tournament off an absolute flyer, thrashing Pakistan by seven wickets with 218 balls remaining.

Kurtly Ambrose and Ebury-Rainford Brent alongside me to review some really hostile bowling from the Wendy's Quicks and Pakistan's dismal opening performance. Also on this episode, a fascinating interview with Josh Butler asking Adil Rashid about his best. mindset variations, his partnership with Mowing, relationship with Owen Morgan, and much more. And you'll also hear from Kurtly Ambrose on his stint on dancing with the stars. Available every day during the Cricket World Cup.

This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Really, I think the story of the day is about the West Indies bowling, which was aggressive. It was hostile. It was fiery. It was pretty well directed, I think. Ebony's here as well. One of those days currently where I'd rather be sitting up here in the commentary box

rather than batting against it honestly but if that's the way they're going to play I mean it's a plan that you can see succeeding elsewhere as well I think. It probably can because most bowlers today figure because it's one day cricket

they can't afford to be aggressive and be a baby bowler a couple of bounces but cricket is cricket and bounces are part of cricket and I believe that the plan this morning with the wrestling is bowling worked to perfection. They really hustled the Pakistani basemen.

They had no answer and was really destroyed in the way they played. I mean, you've got to have the pace. I mean, you've got to be big enough for them. They're big lads, aren't they? These West Indian quick bowlers, they're not all fast.

You wouldn't say Bradford was fast. Of course not. But he's strong and he's tall and he does get the bounce. Yes, Andrew Russell, O'Shea and Thomas, they've got pace. A lot of people tend to own their estimate Andrews Russell pace.

but he's quick and of course Gabriel not in the line up at the moment but they get a few guys who can bowl up to 90 miles an hour and really keep Basman on the toes so that's all good for them Can you see this continuing abs

Is this going to be the West Indies way Do you think that in the next game's Australia That'd be an interesting challenge If they'd bowl like this Well it was noticeable looking at the two teams For me Pakistan I thought they used a good short But they're a little bit slippery Aren't there you know

They skid the surface Kiss the surface Whereas the West India it seemed to rear a little bit more off length and really awkward at times to play. I just think the fact that they've got so many that can come in and Andre Russell, who actually are not expecting him to bowl too many overs, comes in at a tricky time and makes things happen.

I think there's a little bit of extra wrist in there coming in. I think they're dangerous. I've been saying from before that I think that they look like a side that could cause a lot of problems in this tournament. And I was basing that on their batting because I think bringing in Russell, having Evan Lewis lining up when he's fit, etc. But actually the bowling today stood out as something that could really add to an all-round performance.

Yes, the bowling certainly did well, but I still believe, and I have to agree with you, Ebony, I still believe that the batting is going to be the key. That's why I said that if the Westerners win the toss in any condition, they should bowl first. On whatever target they face, I believe they can chase it down. Because, I mean, we've seen in the Tri-Nations tournament in Ireland, I mean, Bangladesh beat upon us so often and so easily, the ball, they never really showed up. So I think the button is going to be the key. So they should bowl first every time they win it all, in my opinion.

And you have to give credit to Jason Holder today. He took himself out the tack quite early on, got rustling. But then when it worked, he brought himself back and picked up wickets at the back end, so negotiating nicely. I think Gershain Thomas looks like he's getting up the man in match. Well, there's Viv down there looking very trim. Your fellow Antiguan currently. Yes, so Viv, we are looking rather smart.

He's looking very small. He always looked incredibly fit. Yeah, yeah, he's always, yes. But anyway, Shane Thomas, who came tearing in. I mean, he's not a subtle bowler, Thomas. I mean, he's just a big lad. And he comes in and bowls, hurls the ball down. Four for 27 he took from his 5.4 overs.

So he's been the man in the match. Holder 3 for 42 and Russell 2-4-4. I also thought, okay, one catch went down, curtly, with Hepmar dropping Barbarazam, didn't he, when he had 12? He should have caught that, really. but otherwise there has been some talk about the West Indian field league again we're going back to the big big fellows in the field how mobile they're going to be and so on

but there were some excellent catches taking in there as well they look pretty good to me yeah I thought the feeling today was very very good because there's times when they look rather shabby in the field to be quite honest but it's going to be very very important that they feel well because you can't afford a job top class players it could cost you so the field is going to be very very important and they did well today. They weren't under any pressure.

Let's see what happens when they're on a bit of pressure if they can sustain that brilliant feeling that's a different ball game altogether. What do they do with Chris Gale? Today they could get away with it. I mean, they could plant him but slip and they didn't have to move him out.

But you could see it. I mean, every time, every run, they're throwing the ball at his own. They're making him run. It doesn't look mobile, but what an eye he's still got? Yeah, he's never a mobile cricketer. Even when he was young, he's always this stiff sort of character

doesn't really move well in the field up between the wickets. But he's not there to run too many singles. He's there to really take attack apart, and on his day he can do that. He went off with a holding his back. I don't know if he wasn't too serious, but you're quite right. Apart from feeling at first, slip, where are we going to put him? You know, it's going to be very tricky. But Chris Gale is Chris Gale.

This is going to be his last World Cup. Yeah. And I'm quite sure he was to remain fit, first of all, you know, and go to the bang, because I'm quite sure that he's going to send a message that even though I'm approaching 40, you know, I can still give it a good wallop in. So he wants to go to the bang, and let's hope that for us in his cricket's sake, he can stay fit. Well, one thing we were just talking about off ear is looking at the line-up of fixtures at the moment. So they're not playing again till Thursday.

Thursday, yeah. Which means for someone like Chris Gale, maybe Andre Russell might have rolled his ankle. that's plenty of time to get yourself back in Nick and actually their spread across this tournament is quite generous so that works in his favour we talk about luck in moments on the field but off the field if you've got a good bit of space between you know you get in the physio bed

you get a little bit of stretching you'll be ready to go yeah it's more than ready to go available every day during the cricket world cup this is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live well a chasing tournament opener for Pakistan the match finishing before 2 o'clock local time after a 10.30 start. Atif Noaz from the BBC's Doosra podcast was here at Trent Bridge, probably wishing he'd stayed at home.

Oh, that was devastating. I can't believe I came all the way from London to not to get him to watch that car crash of a performance. Do you know what? I want to give them the benefit of the doubt and say, you know what, actually, maybe it was the West Indies who outplayed them, which they did. But still, 105, are you kidding me? Come on, Pakistan. This is not what your fans expected. especially after losing four straight games to England and five before that to Australia and just multiple series losses after series losses after series losses. Like you've got to do better than that shortly.

Come on, guys. Come on. Well, at least there's some respite coming. Well, clearly not. They've got England on Monday and that's not going to get any easier, is it? Of course, the tide that's number one in the world that's destroying all sorts of world records

that destroyed South Africa in the first match. All you've got to do is beat them to turn your fortunes around. man I'm trying to be positive at least Muhammad Amir came through and delivered bold beautifully and it was good to see him bowl well and with rhythm and you know so many people have backed him in this team and a lot of people said that okay you know maybe he's good enough but he hasn't proven himself well he certainly proved himself today and particularly with that dismissal of Chris Gill you know accounting for the

wicket of a set batsman especially one as destructive as Chris Gill sure the game been taken away by that point but still it's a big moment and it bodes well for Pakistan even if they lose the next game which let's face it is a very real possibility at least we know that there's still seven games to go after that so realistically they need to win at least sixth to qualify for the semi-finals they've still got a chance but looking at this west indies team boy they're going to take some beating aren't they i don't know who's going to do it really ah Pakistan what i'm feeling right now only pakistani cricket is capable of delivering the feeling of utter disappointment, yet still hope.

It's unbelievable. I can't believe I'm still hopeful about Pakistan's chances in the World Cup, considering the way they've played today and the way they've lost and the fact that they've got a much tougher game to come in theory. But I still think they're going to deliver and I'm still excited about the rest of the tournament. Let's see. Just a couple of facts here. That was the fourth shortest completed match in terms of overs in World Cup history.

The fourth shortest, I mean, there's a lot of games and that's remarkable. remarkable, really. And Pakistan's innings of 21.4 overs is the third shortest in cricket World Cup history for a team to be bowled out. So that puts it rather into perspective as what we've seen here today at Trent Bridge. Do you think there's a mixture between the short ball getting them out directly and the short ball getting them out indirectly? The one or two I thought maybe got out because of the bowling that had been short and ferocious and they didn't like it very much. Yeah, they didn't like it too much and one or two of them

try to take on a short pitch bowling and they didn't succeed. One of the things that I find if a fast bowler, bowling a couple of short balls, what a bass man needs to do is just ignore them, maybe duck sway out of the way and then the bowler must be the result or something else.

But if you're going to look like you're not facing it well or try to take them on and you're not comfortable, at least fire the ball or to keep bowling short. I think the best way for bass man to do just sway out of the way maybe duck and the bowler must find something else to do yes because it's not that easy because you can only bowl two in and over and it's such a narrow margins isn't it so it's not as a place you know people who seem to think oh run up and bowl short actually

there is a lot more to it than that you've got to get it in such a defined area that's not too high and also not a wide of course but also it's going to be in the area where either unsettles a baton or makes him take on that hook shot so it's a lot more to it than simply running up and hurling the half the way down the pitch. Of course. You got like Andy Roberts, the great numbers, you just say he could measure a baseman very well. Knows where to bowl a short ball and he was one of those guys that

did some damage in his time. Great Andy Roberts. But cricket has changed and the short pitch bowling you don't see it very often because I mean you could be wider or that's one for the over and then you want

to keep one in your arsenal just for support so the game has changed quite a bit and I don't know Jonathan if I will survive into this cricket because there are too many rules and regulation you were never much of a conformist Kirkley from my memory I mean I wouldn't call you a rebel necessarily

but I know what you mean but actually were you playing when they actually ruled out short pitch bowling altogether in one day cricket because that wasn't in for a little period of time wasn't it where you couldn't bowl any short balls it was just automatically automatically a wide but

and then people Well, say, come, this is ridiculous. It's getting so one-sided now. It's a good thing they've brought it back. I mean, the bowler's got to have something. I've always believed that there's no better sight in cricket than a great fast bowler versus a great busman. A couple of short pitch deliveries, having you hopping and skipping,

hitting you in front of the square or out of the ground. It's a great sight. Sadly, it's not there anymore. He hit me on the head once. Oh, did he? Do you remember it? I do remember it because I remember it very clearly because... I was wondering what that scar was.

Well, no, because I went down. It made a terrible noise in the helmet. I thought, great, I could retire hurt here. So I went down and realized actually I was all right. It was a bit disappointing. I had to carry on. It didn't last much longer. But no, it's not a nice thing.

It's not a nice thing to face people like that. No, no. He provoked me thus what? I did not provoke. I'm going to go looking for this on social media. Someone has got this clip, please. I don't usually bore sharpish deliveries to tail enders. I try to get them out.

I don't want to waste my energy and effort. But Agnew, he... He annoyed me for some reason. I would never provoke him, Kurt. I'm not that stupid. Did you give him the stare? Did you give him the stare? After you got him, did you give him the death stare?

No, I didn't have to. He didn't have to. He didn't last much. A lot of the hospital. No, it did. But it is too. It is part of the game. And we've seen today, I mean, everyone listening back in the West Indies, I'm sure many are. I mean, there is, I was there a couple weeks ago.

I mean, there is some expectation there now, I think, with the way that the West Inders have played against England for a start. I think you can just feel that there is some proper enthusiasm again and feeling that West Indies should do well in this tournament and they should be encouraged by what they've seen here today. I believe they're going to do very well. I think they're going to do much better than most people think or most people expect.

And they could really spring a few surprises in the workup, you know, but they've got to be consistent. I'm going to interrupt a second. Nick Esch is with Jason now. Jason, congratulations. That was over pretty quickly. You can all look forward to a nice early shower. Yeah, it was a good game.

You know, I think the ball is well standing today. All of them running and gave a really good effort. You know, we got wickets early and, you know, we kept our foot on the accelerator. As I said, just knowing the post-match presentation. It's been a case in the past, we've eased off and let people back into the game. But, you know, it's really good to see the killer instincting the guys today. In terms of your plan bowling to these Pakistani batsmen, lots of short-pitch bowling we saw out there, yielded quite a few of the wickets today.

Was that a clear plan going into this game? Yeah, we just wanted to be aggressive. I think the nature of our cricket, we would just want to be aggressive. whatever we're doing with the bat the ball and also in the field and you know it's good to see the guys running and really hit the straps you know we were aggressive and caused problems you know we look threatening you know which is a really good sign for us going forward in this tournament in terms of the uh the batting as well we saw chris gale enjoying himself out there but he was struggling with that back and and then he got hit on the foot as well hobbling through for

those singles struggling to even walk towards the end of his innings how's he getting on yeah he's getting on that's it you know you know we all know the importance of this tournament and i'm sure you know, feeling ready to keep going. It's been a long toil for him personally. And I was good to see him out there firing for us. And one of the things that stood up for me is even when he was in pain and I sent the physio back off the field because he was willing to see it through to the end.

It didn't happen today, but, you know, credited way he played. Andre Russell as well, rolling over on his ankle. Is he going to be fully fit for the next game? Yeah, the beauty about this tournament, we've got some time in between games. I think we've got five days off before our next encounter. So more than enough time for the guys to recover well. You know, we'll see how to pull up over the next few days.

Of course, fantastic performance here to the next few days. day with ball in particular, but eight matches left in this World Cup. This is a long old competition with the format, with every side plays each other. You've got to keep that momentum going, haven't you? With all that gap in between those games that you've got, how do you keep that momentum going? I think the biggest thing for us is to stay fresh. We've got to stay fresh and make sure our players are 100% when we step on the cricket field, if not 100% anywhere close to 100%. We've got one and two niggles within the camp. It's just about managing our players and making sure that we can have them, you know, firing when we ask them to come and fire.

I think the most important thing for us is just to keep fresh, make sure we stay fit and healthy and perform out on the field. Best of luck for those then. Thank you. Available every day during the Cricket World Cup. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Right now to a very special feature then with some fascinating insight into the art of leg spin in white ball cricket.

Adul Rashid will be key, of course, to England's chances in this tournament. We've asked his good friend, Joss Butler, to get him to reveal some of his secret. Hi, this is Josh Butler and the TMS podcast have asked me to interview Adil Rashid on what it's like to be a leg spinner. So Adil, at the start of an over, what is going through your mind and when are you thinking what deliveries to bowl? So for me, what's going through my mind is I'm looking to be nice and positive, aggressive. My first mindset is look to go wickets. You know, look to stick to my strengths. I keep saying that stick into your strengths. If you're a quick leg spinner, stick into that or if you're a bowler, it gives you a bit of flight,

into that and being brave so it's about being brave sticking to your strengths and backing yourself to go the wickets one of your big strengths is you got lots of variations how do you decide when to use them that's more of a gut feeling for me it's not it's not a thing that I will say right to talk of Mark I'm about a googly now it's more of a thing in action you see a batsman move it could be a thing of right last minute googly or a slider or a leggy so for me it's more of a in the moment thing at times you do set up batsmen leggy leggy leggie but for me is looking to really mix you up on ball quite for you.

Obviously in the game now, lots of aggression, times you get hit for a six. How do you reset and come back from that? I think it's accepting that you are going to get hit for six. That's part and parts of being a cricketer, being a baller or a spinner. You are going to get hit for sixes. But for me, it's about coming back and being brave again

and seeing sometimes if you can go again, and if you can go again, as opposed to sometimes going to a ball and get flat or whatever. So it's about, again, being brave. that positive mindset again knowing that if I do the same ball again he could miscue and get out. I think Owen Morgan obviously uses you a lot to take wickets. Do you enjoy that role in the side? Yeah, definitely. You know, it's obviously nice to know that from your skipper that he backs you and he keeps it simple. You know, so they go out there look to be aggressive

and create chances. So that's what I'm trying to do. And with him knowing that and also the players knowing that, I think it's a good place for a spinner to be in. For example, say there's two set batters going very well. Do you always feel? feel like you're a man you want to be throwing the ball in that situation? Yeah, I like balling in any situations. You know, sometimes other death, it can go the other way, but I actually enjoy the challenge. You know, you can always change the game in a couple of balls. So if there's two batsmen set, you know, going along nicely, I don't, I'll still back myself to create something, create a chance or so. Seeing your bowl a bit more at the end of an innings as well.

Do you enjoy that challenge? Yeah, definitely. I really enjoy that a lot, actually. Yeah, there's times that you know you may get smashed for 30 or whatever and over but it's not having that mindset it's the mindset of right I can get wickets see I can change the game I can be the matchwinness that kind of mindset as opposed to thinking right I could go the distance so is it fair to say a lot of the time your mindset's not about looking to contain maybe it's something that's what moan alley's job maybe what you two guys work really well together and you're always looking to be aggressive and you're willing to risk going for boundaries to chase wickets now definitely yeah me more work well in that way you know more knows his role his role like

you say maybe to keep it tight and to go up for and over my role is to go out there create the chances so working working that way it works it works very well but you know it's simple you know it's a simple game plan for myself you know trying to be really aggressive create chances and and try get wickets you just describe like what kind of relationship you need with a wicket keeper do they any use to you behind the stumps or someone like myself pretty pointless no you're quite good actually by the stumps you know we talk quite a bit of you know if you see a some batsman if he's looking to play a certain

short, if he's good at the sweep or if he's good at coming over the top. So it's good to obviously know the keeper sees that you can give indications of, you know, ball a bit wider, ball rongans to him, or ball it slower, ball it quicker. So you take it on board but ultimately I think that's obviously that's what the keeper sees but ultimately I think as a spinner

you've got to go with your gut feeling and your gut instinct to what you're going to bowl. So you don't really listen to what I say? No, no, you listen. But if you think, you know what, yeah I will listen. But sometimes you know you listen, you take it in but you think, you know what, I've got a different way I'm going to do my way first.

And if that doesn't work, once, two balls, then you go, right, you know what, let me actually do what the keeper's saying here because it might be his way. But I think at first it's really sticking to your gut feeling of your strength and what you really believe that will work. How has your mindset developed over time with a lot more experience?

You know, when you were a younger player, did you find it easy to come back from tough overs? Or has that something that's been developed as you've got older? For me, it's something that developed as I got older, played more career. cricket. When I was younger, I think like most youngsters now, if you're ball, you get hit for sixes or get hit, you know, you can't get disheartened and you can't get a bit upset and, you know, you can get a lot of pressure can get onto you. But what I've found is, it's really getting on, you know, you and the captain have really got to be the same page. And if you've got the captain's full backing recent, I don't mind if you get hit for sixes or four, it really brings out the confidence in a player. So myself, like you said, now, as I've played more, as I've played a lot more international cricket, Plus with Morgs as captain now, you know, he really, you know, as a captain,

if a captain says to, you know, we don't mind if you go for runs. Then as a spinner, you'd really just go out there, really just try and enjoy your game and don't really think about containing and stuff, especially as a wrist spinner. You know, your job with the team as a wrist spinner is to look to create chances. And if the captain, if you're in the captain, the same page as that, and you get smashed and you get hit for sixes, then it's fine because you know that you try to do a job. The captain knows that job as well, but it just didn't work. The main, the most important thing is knowing that the captain is on your side and you're both on the same page.

So how do you actually find keeping to me and, you know, the difference is maybe keeping to myself or Rashid Khan. So what's the differences and the challenges you find? I think the differences between the two of you guys you mentioned there are, obviously, he bowls a lot faster than you ball. Probably doesn't spin the ball as much either way as you can, but just bowls a lot quicker. I think the great thing as a wicket keeper when you stood up to the stumps to someone like yourself is, you know you can affect the game. You can spin the ball both ways. So whether it's a left hand or right hand

or you feel really in the game, know you're going to be aggressive with the way you bowl and looking to create chances. And I think that's probably the most fun you have as a wicket keeper, as keeping to guys like yourself who can turn the ball both ways. Because you know you're always in the game and especially in this format with guys

looking to come after you as well, then it gives you great chance behind the stumps to affect stumpings or take catches. You've played against me and played with me for many years now. When did you first really start picking my variations? I'm sure it was the very first time I bolt to you. I pick you in my eyes close, really. But, no, I think that's one of the challenges of keeping to guys like yourself.

You've obviously got great disguise with your variations. So you've been a bit luckier as a wicket-keeper compared to a batter because you've got that bit more time. And, you know, you can see it off the picture. bit easier as well if I don't quite get a read from your wrist. But I think that's one of the relationships we've tried to build up is keep to you in practice days and you can tell me which balls you're going to bowl so I can try and get those cues. So then when we do get in the middle, you don't have to think about it and I can just react. So what's the number one or best tips

you would give to a young keeper, you know, keeping against spin bowling? I think the best tip I can give is volume really is get in the nets and just take lots of balls. you can be frustrating sometimes with the batter in front you feel I'm not catching that many but that can be really good practice as well because not every ball comes to you when you're in the middle but you need to be ready for those balls every time even if batsers do miss ones that you don't expect them to as well

so I think the volume you can take just keep catching lots of balls especially for guys trying to learn to keep to guys like yourself I think you need to be doing it lots in practice so you can sort of start to get that read on your variation and how you look to bowl at certain batters. And as a young leg spinner, what tips and advice would you give them?

I think first and foremost, you've got to make sure you, as a leg spinner, as any spinner, you enjoy it. You're going to enjoy what you're doing. And also one of the main things I've found is you've got to have to make sure you have a big heart as a spinner. It's not being afraid to get hit for the sixes.

They say, you know, a risk spinner is also a risk spinner. So, you know, it's going there and being encouraged to spin the ball, not being discouraged to, you know, to ball it fast and whatever. so being coached to get above the eye line, spin the ball and not being afraid to get out for sixes. There will be times that you get hit for sixes

but there may be times where you can get a firefighter and change the game. So it's having a big heart. Enjoy what you do and play with a smile in your face, really. So really enjoy that. Josh Butler asking most of the questions and Adil Rashid there explaining about the art of wrist spin through his eyes.

I hope you find it interesting, a bit different too. If you've got any suggestions for future, pieces you'd like to hear with the England players. Let us know at TMS at BBC.co. UK. Listening to that, Ebony was here and also Graham Swan knows a bit about spin bowling. That all sound familiar to you? Yeah, I think what I was really hoping to hear then

was how he would just affect his grip or affect his release to get more dip on the ball or to alter his pace a bit. But I think what that showed that interview is that RASH doesn't actually think like that. He spoke about gut feeling and about not deciding and let's go. I think one of the beauties of Adil Rashid

and one of the reasons he's so different for Mowin Ali Mowin thinks about what he's going to bowl he plots his over he gets in and out of the over he's very clever like that

it's why he's a good tying down bowler yes Adir Rashid doesn't he bowls on gut instinct and the question of grip for a googly and an orthodox leggy

I mean I was never really very good at that I'm honest with you but to think that hard so you can actually decide the last moment to bowl along in so depending on how you grip

it if you're a so the legspin normally use this third finger to affect all the big leg spin but if you have your first two fingers sort of separated on the seam as an off spinner would

a go gougly is just when you go to bowl it you basically have an offspinner's grip and you flick it out of the back that's how easy it is to bowl a gougarly so you can do it very much last minute I thought that was most of me that was quite the surprising part of it

where actually I would assume he'd walk back thinking right I'm going to bowl a gougar you know did you think that was the first thing that stood out to me was to have control of your skills that you haven't plotted it so it's not like you've pre-set

as you're running in he's clearly got control of all these very variations, that at the last minute, he can bowl it and change it and still control what comes down. So to me, that was good. The other thing I think, which is kind of maybe missed a little bit in that interview, but he alludes to, is he's being backed by his captain to know that he's going to be an aggressive bowler. So he can go out there and just bowl with freedom, let that instinct and gut come out. A different captain who maybe needs to know what's your over, might actually get in the way of his success.

Well, I think it's the complete reason he's a very good one-day bowler because Owen Morgan's in charge and then let's face it a very ordinary test bowler because Joe Root doesn't. Joe Root puts men straight on the boundary that's played too much red ball cricket with him to back him because he doesn't back himself. He bowls more bad balls in test cricket than he doesn't. He's awful because I mean

what that says a lot of and Ebbs picked up on it absolutely he needs to be backed he needs an arm around his shoulder. Yes. When he says you've got to be brave you've got to be brave it's like he's trying to convince himself you've got to be brave you got to have a big heart he must stay in front of the mirror and say be brave be brave be brave so there was a bit of bravado in that answer

which is good, which shows he's continually trying to self-empower himself to be this bowler. The whole mindset, though, I mean, I'm a generation of John Embry firing it in and Peter Willie firing it in and all of them sort of spin bowling was negative, negative, negative, defensive, defensive. I mean, that's changed completely. Absolutely. Well, I used to pull my hair out watching that. When I first started playing, Nassar Sane had written off fingers spinners in this country because he had been brought up in the old system where that's all they did.

They weren't wicket-taking options. they weren't expected to be aggressive and I used to think that was absolute nonsense that's what I do why should I fall into that so I'm glad that they don't know that Spin will play a massive part in this World Cup those middle 20 overs for any team will win two or three games in the group stages

because England won't always be able to blast people out with Archer or get 350 the other thing I was going to say that adds to accessible again which was alluded to is Mowing Ali down at the other end so he has got that control that backs it up so it works in a partnership you've got a captain who let you be free. You've got somebody at the other end who is miserly, keeps the control. I think it all builds to him being able to be successful.

The TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup. Well, it's been great to have Kurt Leambos with us on this episode, sounding excited about the West Indies prospect after their terrific bowling performance. A little earlier today, he spoke to Simon Mann about his stint on Australia's TV show Dancing with the Stars. It was an opportunity to show that Kurt Leambos have a softer side. Because once you mention Kurt Leambos, the first thing comes to me, Mine is this big, mean, aggressive fast bowler who doesn't say much who doesn't smile.

Well, they are two sides to me. My dance partner was very short. She was 5'4. Right, okay. I'm 6'8, so that's really a challenge from the start. But she was a wonderful girl. We had a wonderful time together, great chemistry, and I had a great time in Australia. Could you dance well before you went into it?

I've never done ballroom dancing before, but of course I could dance. I'm from Antigua. We're naturally rhythmic people. You know, I mean, everything is about rhythm. So I could dance, but ballroom dancing was something different. Had to go and train every day, four or five hours every day. It was hard. But, you know, being a dancer and have good rhythm,

it didn't take me too long to get into my strides. People kept asking me if it was a difference between dancing, ballroom dancing, and cricket. It's totally different, not even close. Cricket, you could pace yourself a little bit. It depends on the condition. You could decide, okay, I'm going to go flat. out or I'm going to pull back a little bit. You could pace yourself during cricket.

We dance, ballroom dancing, there's no pacing. You know, you got to put it in the work, got to make sure all the steps are correct. You know, I got to be thinking, do I move on my left foot first on my right foot? So mentally it was draining. How long did that before that became automatic? Well,

after the first couple of dances, I was more concerned about my first performance because I didn't know how he was going to go. So once I got a first one, out of the way. Then I felt more comfortable. And the second dance, we danced to a reggae tune, obviously, right up my street. I was really my element. So it got better as I progressed. But my first dance to me was the hardest because I didn't know how he was going to go. And I wanted

to get it out of the way. Did it get your competitive juices flowing again? I mean... It certainly did. Junior herself and stuff, you know, when I keep messing up, I judge myself very hard. And I strive for perfection. I don't like to screw up or anything like that. So sometimes when I mess my step up, you know, and I was like being hard on myself, my dance partner was, no, you're doing okay. Half an hour ago you couldn't do it, no, you're doing it, you know.

I mean, messing up is part of it, and I kept saying to her, well, you know, being an athlete, being a sportsman, you know, that's how I do. I really mark myself very hard. So sometimes it was frustrating, but she was so comforted. You know, you're doing well, you know, and she really kept me going. So we had a very good thing. And just, final point on this, in Australia, in Sydney, do you get recognised the whole time because you were...

Obviously, you play cricket, people recognise you from that, but, you know, you've gone out of public consciousness for a bit, but being on TV every week, you get suddenly mobbed again? I was a bit surprised, you know, walking around Sydney from time to time. People keep stopping me on the street. I mean, I love you when I was playing cricket and now you're dancing with the stars, you're doing well, so I guess I have a new career in dancing. you know, but I kept, you know, I kept getting that.

People, man, I'm watching dance with stars, you're being fantastic, you know. I love when they play cricket. I think you're better cricket than a dancer, you know, I get that kind of comment as well. But I had a wonderful time in Sydney in Australia and, I mean, I just enjoy my dancing. So what was harder then, cricket or dancing? Like physically, did it? Physically, the cricket was harder, obviously, but mentally,

I think the dancing was much harder mentally because in cricket, like I kept saying to people, if a baller, a bad old, or two in cricket you can always make up somewhere along the line in dancing you make one one step and it could flow of the whole routine so mentally it was more draining for me because I got to keep thinking do I move on my right first or my left foot because if you go to the right foot when you should be left the routine is spoiled so mentally for me was more draining the TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup don't forget to subscribe to the TMS podcast for new episodes every day during the World

Cup. We've been asking you to email us here at TMS at BBC.co.com. UK with the least likely cricketing places that you're listening to us. Put podcast in the subject title. We've had some very good ones during today's game. Wayne listening in southern Taiwan

not exotic, somewhat distant though I suppose. Martin, dear all at TMS and loving the podcast, very excited about the World Cup. I've been listening in the hotel gym in Port Moresby and Papua New Guinea. I know it's not the most unusual or least likely cricket plays to listen from. But my driver on a visit here last year

enjoyed telling me that he played against England on an under 19 cricket World Cup. Orm Thacker from Maputo, Mozambique, part of the Commonwealth, despite its Portuguese history and an ICC member. A bit of cricket going on, he says, I play cricket with a British High Commission team against an Indian embassy team

for Commonwealth Sports Day last week. And finally, Rebecca, Chau, TMS team. I'm listening in Verona, Italy, whilst working for a company that leads and develops international Italian wine education. What a job that is. A bit of a job swap, possibly.

Well, absolutely. For a few of us here. But do you want to fancy to cricket commentary? We'll do we'll do a swap. And the last thing I have to do is get you to, because you haven't joined in this sweepstake yet. Who's left? Who's left in this sweepstake?

Well, there are quite a few. Look at the bits of papers, quite a few. And I drew mine out yesterday. I'm quite pleased of mine. If it says England, none. This is going to be the highest scoring batsman in the tournament. Oh, okay. Okay.

So there's a little envelope here, was getting increasingly stuff, actually. And I'm going to get all them in position. You've got to pull out the name. Ladies First. Of course. I mean, can I just pick Owen Morgan.

Is someone already going to go? Yes, thank you. There you go. Let me just shake this around a bit. So this is the highest scoring bats from Fort England? For anybody. You think Morgie could be the man? That's the one I want to put my name on.

He's in good Nick. He's in good Nick. Reveal all? Yeah, I don't think I'm in. Oh. Angela Matthews, Sri Lanka. I just don't... He carries their team.

He carries their team. He's a very fine player. I just have a feeling it might not be their tournament. Well I hope so. Swanee. I seem to pull out two so I just put it now.

Now then. I'm not entirely displeased with Roe hit Sharma from India. Because the top run score in this tournament is going to be a top order batsman. The stats say so. I'm read into it. I'm a huge stat man as you know.

I think Sony might have... Can I go again? No, you can't. That's from all of us here, this latest episode of the podcast at the World Cup. It's the first doubleheader of the tournament on Saturday with two of the big guns in action. New Zealand facing Sri Lanka, Angelo Matthews, before Australia's day-night clash with Afghanistan. I might drop Aaron Finch into Australia one, by the way. That was mine.

We're on air from 9.30 in the morning. Don't forget, you can watch all the match highlights as they happen by the BBC Sport website and the app. Keep your emails coming in with the least crickety places So you listen to the podcast And we'll speak to you tomorrow Goodbye for now The TMS podcast Available every day during the cricket World Cup

Hi Adulk, can I just get you Just to record something for the podcast basically All I need to do is just say Hi, this is Adel Rashid You're listening to the TMS podcast At the Cricket World Cup Sorry, no chance You've got to speak to my agent

On my other half, brother Moin Ali He vouches for me as well So, you know, if you can get hold of me, you got to get a hold of it. Thank you.