Test Match Special - CWC Day 30: South Africa take the sting out of Sri Lanka's campaign

Episode Date: June 28, 2019

As a swarm of bees interrupts play at the Cricket World Cup, Charles Dagnall, Scott Read and ex-England assistant coach Paul Farbrace review South Africa's victory over Sri Lanka. It was a result which leaves Sri Lanka on the brink of elimination from the tournament. Jos Buttler speaks to Jonathan Overend as England's crunch game with India edges ever nearer. Ex-New Zealand captain Jeremy Coney and former Australian fast bowler Jason Gillespie assess the significance of Australia against New Zealand ahead of the sides' meeting at Lord's.

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Corsacraboles. He smashed it. Smash it high down the ground for six. Into the seething crowd it goes. You've never seen anything like this all around the ground. Bonfires are going in the stand at the far end. Australia have won the 1987 World Cup. And straight towards Stokes, it takes an incredible, one-handed catch. Unbelievable. Hello, I'm Charles Dagnol, and welcome to the Test Match Special podcast on a good day for South Africa and possibly a good day for England here at the Green World Cup. Pafthu Plessis side have beaten Sri Lanka to record only their second win of the tournament. It's also a blow to Sri Lanka's hopes of making the semi-finals.

Coming up, we'll also hear from Joss Butler with England's crucial game against India just a couple of days away, and we'll preview Saturday's game between Australia and New Zealand at Lords. From BBC Radio 5 Live, this is the TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup. Well, as the players walk off in this golden afternoon here in the northeast, and at least they will feel a lot brighter within the dressing room, well, South Africa, with a nine wicket margin of victory over Sri Lanka. As for Sri Lanka, well, that's a fairly slow trudge off, and they think back to maybe what might have been.

We'll talk about that in a few moments' time, but they still have an opportunity of getting through to the semifinals, albeit a slim one, they would have to win their last two games and hope that other results go their way, at least one defeat for Bangladesh and Pakistan, and they would need England to, I think, lose both of their games as well. Former England assistant head coach, Paul Farbrace, former Sri Lankan head coach, is alongside me as well.

And overall, I mean, it's not been a thriller here at Durham at all and South Africa delighted with their victory by nine wickets. Sri Lanka, 203 all out. Top scorers were Pereira and Fernando with just 30 apiece. Three wickets for Chris Morris, three for Dwayne Pretorius, three for 25 off 10 for him and two wickets for Kegiso Rabada.

In response, South Africa 206 for one. Quentin DeCott, the only man to fall. He was bowled by Lassith, Malinga for 15. But from there, DuPlessi was 96, not out. Hachim Amler, 80 not out, and South Africa knocking it off with 12.4 over's remaining. So, Paul, it was disappointment for Sri Lanka, and it just seems to me is that on this pitch,

which was relatively slow in pace, but no huge demons in it, Sri Lanka just couldn't get partnerships together. They couldn't kick on so many players got starts, but it just led to nothing. Absolutely, you're quite right. And partnerships are the key, aren't they? You know, we saw when they did have a partnership

between Calchal Pereira and Aviska Fernando, that they actually, they were in control of the game at that stage. When you have a partnership, the pressure then goes on to the bowling side. It goes on to the fielding captain, and they have to start doing things differently to try and get themselves back in the game. And every time you have a partnership,

and the batting side starts a little bit more relaxed, a bit more comfortable, run starts to flow. It's much easier. But you're absolutely right. You know, 20s and 30s. We said early on, 30s don't win your games, you know, and we've had, what, two schools of 30, three scores of 20, 17s, 18s, that's not enough.

You know, you need to get partnerships, and you're absolutely right all the way down. What do we have? A partnership of 67, 33, 28, 24, 21, that's not going to win your games of World Cup cricket. And Sri Lanka, I think, for me, Sri Lanka will be so disappointed. They'll go away from this game saying, you know, we just really haven't given it a go. We've just not played the way that we want to play. Frustrating considering that their chances of semi-final qualification, it's tough. They would have had to have at least won two of their final three games

and for other things to go their way. You win all three and their chances are a lot, lot higher. But it just seemed there were lackluster and without many plans with the bat. I agree completely. And, you know, as I say, you lose a wicket off the first ball of the innings. That can set you back of it. But actually, Fernando and Pereira played really, really well. They played fantastically well.

They both had the pace. They'd work the pace out. They were playing strong cricket shots. They were getting the singles away. They just looked in complete control of the game at that stage. In South Africa, we're actually finding it difficult to bowl at them. Right left-hand combination. They're finding it hard to bowl at them.

And then Naviscio Fernando plays a big shot to a ball that's a good length on middle stump and he's tried to hit it over the top, lobbed it to mid on. and then within two overs you know Calhaw-Pera has dragged one onto his own stumps are just a nothing shot he'd been moving his feet nice he'd been playing strong cricket shots

no foot movement whatsoever tried to steer it into the offside dragged it onto the stumps and then that brings in Cushul Mendez and Angelo Matthews together then they've got to start again they've got to start their innings again and they then went through a pier

where they just looked to block it get in block block and the longer they blocked the more they allowed the South Africans just to be all over them The field has got tighter, so the single stop coming. You know, Pretoria's bowled. It bowled nicely, but 10 overs, straight, three for 25.

At no stage did they ever really look to get after him. Does it surprise you that they had a fairly formulaic way? It's either a very long single, i.e., they managed to work it down towards third man or fine leg, or it's blasted for four. And there was no rotation, there was no, as you mentioned, there was no innovation whatsoever, or just attempt, even if you come down the pitch and block the ball, it gives the ball of something else to think about. Absolutely.

And, you know, when you play that way, it's easy for the captain, you know, in DePlese's case to keep the field up because they know that they're just going to play block or slog. If you play block or slog in that way, you're stopping the singles, so you're adding pressure. Every dot ball becomes a big shot, and every dot ball brings the pressure on. And then what happened was, Angelo Matthews launched one over mid on. He then runs down a few balls later to try and launch one through the offside and drag. onto his stumps.

You know, then Tahir comes on. Tohir, he's an excellent bowling one day cricket. He came on, his first ball was a low full toss. He got away with his. Second ball was a rank long arm, which got pulled for four. And then from that moment on, they just allowed him to bowl. They allowed him to settle in. Well, if he's got off to a bit of a nervy start, use your feet.

You haven't got to look to hit him over the top every time, but use your feet, knock him into the gap, knock him for ones, put him under pressure. Conversely, South Africa have shown how good they can be, and frustratingly so, because they're, World Cup was over before this match had even started. But we saw today the Hashim Amla of, well, arguably a decade ago. I mean, he looked in such good touch.

His foot movement was beautiful. His timing exquisite. Every ball seemed to come off the middle of the bat. Similarly, with Faf Duplice. Amla finishing 18 not out, Duplice, 96 not out. And, okay, it's not in time for them to make any impact in this World Cup. But watching Hashimamler play the way that he's done today. I mean, they looked like there was no way you could bolt.

at him today. He was fabulous. Absolutely. And that's where perhaps there's been discussion about should Hashim Amla come to this World Cup, you know, is he past his best? And you can see now why the selector stuck with him, why Otis Gibson was keen to have him here as the coach, because you're absolutely right, that was

a brilliant innings from Amla. It rolled back the years, it showed the quality that he's got, and therefore you can fully understand why they stuck with him, why they brought him to this World Cup, and why they thought that his experience was going to be crucial to them going a long way to I understand South African fans tearing their hair out

as to how they've got themselves in this position with the bowling attack that they've got. I think slightly under strength. I think you'd play in Gidey before maybe even Pretoria's for argument's sake. However, no Dale Stain, of course, because of injury and pulling out at the last moment. But that batting line-up is pretty strong. They've got very talented players.

And, you know, they should be, even if they are not in the top four, they should be in that cluster of teams that are just below England and in the table is still challenging and still having a World Cup that is alive for them. 100% right. And you know, you look down that order that they put out today. And yes, they could have had Stain and Gidi could have played.

But ultimately, they've still got enough quality in that team. And they've still got enough experience and know-how. And more importantly, know how to win games from difficult situations. And that's the thing I think that will frustrate them so much is that they've just never really got going. They've just never really got themselves playing. And they've taken until today. to show the real quality of this South African side. The TMS podcast, available every day during the Cricket World Cup.

So England's vital game with India is edging ever nearer. The sides meet at Edgebaston on Sunday with England badly needing victory as they look to make the semi-finals. One of the key men, Josh Butler, has been speaking to Jonathan Overend. Well, we're here on the Edgebaston outfield as the ground staff prepare the field of play for the India match, and I'm with Josh Butler. Josh, how important is it that you keep reminding yourself before this one of how good you are as individuals and as a team? Yeah, very important.

And like you say, two losses doesn't change that in a couple of weeks of the talent in the dressing room or just how strong we are as a team. So I think that's very important to keep reminding ourselves of that, just how well we have played and when we are at our best, we're capable of beating everyone. So we look forward to what's going to be a great occasion on Sunday. Most guys can't wait to get started. Yeah. I mean, four wins from here is the number one team in the world at home and your world champions. That shouldn't be a scary thought, should it? No, it shouldn't. Absolutely, I think, as well. It's very easy to forget that opposition teams, you know, don't want to play us.

It was a very strong team, and we've been expected to be very strong in this tournament and be one of the favourites. So, you know, that hasn't changed, and we're still a great side. We look forward to the challenge on India. We know there's areas of our game that we'd like to rush up on and improve, and we get those things right. we have a chance of doing something very special. So what are those areas in particular with an eye towards India? I think just being a bit more clinical in the terms of, especially in the field, you know, I think we can be a lot more clinical in the field.

I think with the bat, just having that being, they say, something like Sri Lanka, just that sort of energy and intent to get, that doesn't mean slogging it. I mean, just to get the job done and make sure we're there at the end. And I think, you know, the game against Australia, the game sort of hinged on those first 10 overs. We didn't quite get the rewards. We wanted in that first 10, and they took early wickets, which put us under a lot of pressures. So, you know, that can happen in games.

We dust ourselves down. We're ready for Sunday, and we know two good days, practice here, and at our best, we'll be very tough to beat. You mentioned the word energy there. Speaking to a couple of people who were at Lords in the week, not just ex-players, but also just England cricket fans who were there. They made the observation, not a criticism, an observation that perhaps the Aussies looked in some way, lively, body language, that sort of stuff. Was there any reason for that, or is that just an impression that people get? I think it's an easy impression to get after, you know, a side's taken early wickets.

You know, if you've got a side two, three down early, your team's all over it. So I think naturally it looks that way. But, no, I think, like you said, the energy I talk about is more of that internal one as a side. that we operate at a certain intensity that served us very well for a while and we need to maintain that intensity coming into this game. When you do lose early wickets like you did at Lords,

is it right that England keep to their plan, their strategy, the way of playing? Absolutely, yeah. And I think we know very clearly what that is. I think some people assume we just try and hit fours and sixes every ball and that's our plan. But I think it's a bit more,

to it than that. I think I've got some fantastic players. We read situations. We try and adapt and play our game on those wickets or in any situation. You know, whenever you walk in and look at the scoreboard and try and play accordingly, that's what the team tries to do. So, you know, I think people saying our plan is to go and smack it all the time is not quite as accurate. No. And it's easy in that regard to say, where's the plan B? You're saying it's more nuanced than that the way you play your cricket? I think our cricket is about earning the right to play in a fashion that may be that ultra-aggressive, but I think an example would be the game against Bangladesh at Cardiff.

I think Birsto and Roy were none for 15 off five overs, and that doesn't show that explosive attacking cricket, does it? But that partnership that they then developed and earn the right to play in a more attacking manner a bit further down, and that set a platform for guys. to come in after them and play very attackingly. I think that's we talk about earning the right and adapting to conditions and I think that's something we do

to then impression our way on, you know, some guys can come in and play extraordinary innings as Owen Morgan did against Afghanistan. How much have you missed Jason Roy? Yeah, we miss him. I think any team around the world would miss him. He's been one of the form players in world cricket at the top of the order.

It looks like he's progressing well and nice to see him back in the nets. feeling the pressure a little bit there? I think at times, yeah, definitely. I think it'd be pretty unhuman to say that you're not feeling the pressure, but that pressure and stuff doesn't change the process you have to go through to play well. I think external factors, they're always going to be out there, and they're consequential of performance and things that,

but we can only control what we can control. People's opinions or trying to put pressure on us doesn't help us score runs and take wicket. or take catches so we'll stick to the things that have served us very well over time and and doing that is the things that will help us perform under pressure you mentioned opinions the team doesn't really think the country wants you to fail does it no not at all country's right behind you it is yeah absolutely i was having to walk it with my wife in london the other day actually and i was talking we were just talking about the tournament and saying i was sort of saying i wonder if it's been as as big as i thought it was going to be i don't know if as many people are watching it

And she was saying, oh, it's just because you're involved and you're in it. And then as we were talking about it, two people wound down the window in cars and shouting, oh, good luck for the next match and stuff like that. So, yeah, then we're very aware that everyone is watching. And right behind us, there's been a lot of goodwill towards the team. And that's very flattering in a way and gives us a lot of, like talk about, gives you energy. And you feel like you want to perform for the nation. Just a couple of final points.

How vital is it considering the work you've done in revitalising? the one-day team over the last four years. How vital is it that you make the semifinals? Yeah, I think we wouldn't be doing ourselves justice if we don't get there. We've worked long and hard to come to this tournament and be in the position we were coming into it. We know we need to play well.

In the tournament, it is different to bilateral series in these games we have to play well. I think when we know that our best cricket gives us the chance to do something special. And the atmosphere here at Edgebaston is going to be extraordinary, isn't it? It's an atmosphere you experienced in the Champions Trophy Final of 2013

and I know that wasn't a great day for yourself personally or the team but for cricket it's going to be big, isn't it? Yeah, it is going to be big no edge basson's one of her favourite venues to play at playing against India here

will be an amazing spectacle. Jonathan Overend speaking to Joss Butler a safe pair of hands and I don't mean that actually from a cricketing sense I think after the last 24 hours or so and the headlines that have come out from the England cricket camp,

especially with the words that Johnny Bastow has said in response to some things that Michael Vaughn said and some various other opinions as well, which we're going to come on to right now. I think when England decided who was going to be put up for press duties, I think a safe pair of hands is someone like Josh Butler. Paul Farbrace, the former England assistant head coach, is alongside me.

And there is a sort of element to that, isn't there? Because let's just reiterate what occurred over the last 24 hours. and the quote that was attributed to Johnny Bastow in the newspaper saying that people are waiting for us to fail, they are not willing us on to win. In many ways, they're waiting for you to get that loss so they can jump on your throat. It's a typical English thing to do in every sport.

Now, there's been a lot of headlines surrounding what Johnny Barstow has said, and it seems, and looking around social media and all of that, that is genuinely not the case, and journalists have been responding to that quote and saying, well, actually, no, that isn't the case. What do you think, Paul, will be the feeling in the England dressing room with a quote or when a quote like that comes out in the middle of this tournament? Well, I think the first thing to say is that, you know,

pretty much everybody in this country wants England to do well. We all want England to do well. And whether that's media, whether that's cricket supporters, players in the game, players playing first class cricket, club crickers, everybody wants England to do well and thrive in this tournament. one's excited by what this tournament was going to bring. I think, you know, you have to accept that from time to time, you're going to get criticism if you don't play well.

And, you know, just Butler said himself there that you're only human and you will feel a bit of pressure from time to time. So, you know, maybe, you know, maybe it's Johnny's way of dealing with a bit of pressure that he's lit off a bit of steam. I don't know. I haven't spoken to him about it. But what I would say is that, you know, by and large, everybody wants England to do well and to be successful.

And I think we've had, you know, a lot of the media around the English team has been extremely positive. And you have to accept that if you don't play well, you know, people are entitled to their view. And that's the great thing about this game. You know, it creates opinion and sometimes it defies opinion. Do you think that within the dressing room, though, some of the England players might well, and you know them better than anybody. Within the dressing room, Owen Morgan, the captain or Josh Butler or Ben Stokes or whoever it may be, Owen Allen, he turned around and go, what are you talking about?

What have you done that for? Well, I mean, I don't know. I'm not in that dressing room at the moment. I'm going to sit nicely on the fence and say, you know, I honestly don't know. I would be guessing. What I would say is that, you know, the team are very good. There's a lot of strong characters in there. You know, they deal with things very well as a team.

Owen Morgan is a fantastic captain. He's a fantastic leader. And, you know, there might be a quiet conversation going on. Danny Rubin, the England team media guy. There might be some quiet conversations going on about those sorts of things. But look, I think the important thing is that the team won't be put off by it. They won't lose their focus. You know, that they're very focused.

And listening to Josh speak there, you're absolutely right. He's a safe pair of fans. You know, he speaks so well about the game of cricket. He comes across there as, you know, a very articulate, intelligent person. He understands the game. He understands the pressures that come with a Home World Cup, coming into this as a favourite. You know, the team know, regardless of what's written or said or by anybody like us that offer our views in the media,

the team know that the last two games, they haven't played well enough. You know, the Sri Lankan defeat at Headingley will be the one that will have disappointed them the most. It was a game that was there to be won, and for three quarters of the game, they played really good cricket. They bowled and fielded it well, and with the bat, they were going along nicely. Routi gets strangled down the leg side. He'd set the game up to win it, and unfortunately no one could stay with Ben to get, England over the line and they'll be massively disappointed about that. The Australian

game, you know, and I think Josh is right, I thought that England bowled, the first eight overs other day, I thought England bowled exceptionally well. I thought Chris Wokes could have had three, four wickets comfortably. Australia could have been 20 for two. They weren't. They got through that period and then maybe England did go a fraction

short for a little period but then dragged it back really well. And instead of chasing 3.30, we're chasing 2.80 and at half time they'd have been saying we've done really well there. We've kept us in the game. We've given ourselves a great chance. And then you lose two early wickets yourselves. The Australians, I thought, Bob, brilliantly.

They had the little bit of fortune that perhaps England didn't have with a new ball, and they end up winning the game very well. And they deserve to win it. They were the better team, and teams are allowed to pay better than you, and they are allowed to beat you. Final question, then. I'm putting you back in the England dressing room as assistant head coach. You are on the back of two straight defeats.

You're playing an Indian side, which has just got a very easy win, a comfortable win over the West Indies, and are on an absolute high, they've returned to number one in the world. What are your, you know, how are you going about the personalities within that England team? What are you telling them? What messages are you giving them ahead of that game against India? Because it is not necessarily do or die, but the next two games for England, they've got to win one. You'd argue they've probably got to win them both to qualify for the semi-finals. And they'll want to win them both. That's the point.

You know, I've been saying this now for a few days, that they will want to win them both. And they will want to take the momentum. to take a high level of confidence into the semi-final and final. And, you know, four more games, England are quite capable of winning the next four games and being world champions on the 14th of July. There's no question to my mind about that. Josh Butler again said in there that it's a case of reminding themselves why they're good players, why they're a good team.

I think, rather than being hesitant in any way over the next couple of days and hesitant going into this game against India on Sunday at Edgebaston, one, they love playing at Edgebaston. it's a favourite venue he said that it's been a brilliant venue for england the crowd will get behind them it's a brilliant place they know the pitch really well it'll be a good pitch it'll be an excellent pitch and they'll play good cricket the most important thing is they get on the front foot early they don't go into the game with any doubts they don't go into the game trying to be cautious or careful they go in they play their way and they're very positive in everything they do i'd love to see them win the toss and bat i'd love to see them take the game on and take the indians on and play really positive cricket. But the important thing over the next couple of days is the mindset is we are a good side. We're full of very, very good players. Whether Jason Roy comes back in or not, and I hope he does, because I think he will make a massive difference. If he comes back into the side, that will be a big difference for them. And I'd just love to see them go on the front foot

and really take the Indians on and remind themselves that they are a team of high quality players with a lot of skill. They've won big games around the world in the last few years. That's what they've got to number one. And let's really take the Indians on. podcast at the Cricket World Cup. Well, Australia will feel very comfortable. They are already through to the semifinals with New Zealand well placed to join them. They meet on Saturday at Lodds, but just how significant is their rivalry. Here are the views of the former Australian fastballer Jason Gillespie and first ex-New Zealand captain Jeremy Coney.

Well, I think with any Derby, if you like, it does raise the intensity. No doubt about that. Australia has always felt as if we were playing an older brother, you know, he used to take you into his bedroom and give you a good sharp rabbit punch. You know, it is a healthy rivalry. You know, there's history there. I think there's a deep respect between our countries. New Zealand, always incredibly competitive in whatever sport is being played,

but certainly from a cricket point of view, you know, I know certainly when I was a player, Playing against New Zealand was something to really look forward to. And you always knew you're in for a really tough contest. They took, of course, to sport to bully us. And they did for a while. In 1946, when they played, this will take a while, and when they played a test match against us and beat us quite comfortably,

they then decided they wouldn't play us again for 27 years. And they sent B teams over and C teams over to play against our top side. And they used us as an outdoor net so that they could send their, promising players to England because we had conditions that were just like the English at that time. So that's, that built up quite a, an indignity, I think, within the New Zealanders. So when we first played them and came back in 1973, 74, I was actually in the side. And that was a, there was quite a fruity and spicy kind of feeling, certainly from our side. Does it mean more to them than it does to Australians playing against them?

Oh, I don't know. You'd probably have to ask them, but I can only tell you, From my perspective, it was great occasions to play against the Kiwis, as we call the Aussies, we call on the Kiwis. And, yeah, it's just always just a wonderful rivalry. And to this day, you know, we've obviously got in the one day, there's a Chapel Hadley trophy. You know, it's certainly one, you know, a trophy you want in your cabinet, that's for sure. Well, there's always that, as I say, that Derby kind of feel about the games.

And so if we can beat Australia, yeah, I think there is that sense. certainly within the New Zealanders who aren't playing the game they will certainly love to beat Australia to feel patronised by Australia that's the history area that's the context it is the context and when we were able to beat them in a test match in Australia

and then the second one in Australia and won the series in Australia that was a very very sweet feeling because there was 1981 of course and the underarm delivery I mean how much damage did that do to relations between the two sides. That was a very big game.

That was a bonus for New Zealand. That was one of the best things that happened to New Zealand cricket. Yeah, we lost the game as it happened. An interesting match, we were chasing about 230, 240, something like that. I was there at the ground, but I had an injury. And so I wasn't included in the team so I could watch this game unfold. Two things happened. Everyone focuses on the last ball, but in fact,

Greg Chappell got 90 that day and on 50 odd he hit one in the air off Lance Cairns and Martin Sneddon, the lawyer, made a lot of ground and gave a diving, swallowing catch, really well judged, took it diving forward, clearly. You listen to Richie Benno's commentary, he says, that is a wonderful catch. And of course, what happened then was Greg didn't even look. He just put his back to the act. action and stayed at the crease at the non-striker's end because they'd taken a single. And Don Louisa, the umpire, went to consult with his other umpire, and they decided between themselves that neither of them had actually turned and bothered to see whether the catch was taken. What they were busy doing was making sure that the batsman didn't put their bats short of,

you know, the pop increase so that it would be a short run. So they were both consulting that, and neither of them bothered to watch, and therefore they couldn't give it out. Well, that set, you know, that set our little hierarchy on the ground going. So that feeling then started to fester away amongst us that things are going badly for us here. And in the end, the last ball occurred as well, which was the sort of the nail in the coffin for many of. Certainly like people like braces who were quite a bruises anyway. so he stood like a bouncer outside our door, our dressing room door, just as the Australians came past and challenged every one of them

to a little street fight out the back now. Yeah, certainly look, that was a bad moment, a bad incident. You know, Greg Chappell openly admits that, you know, he probably wasn't fit to Captain Australia at the time. And, you know, it was a poor decision, you know, to instruct his younger brother to, you know, to do that. But yeah, it was pretty poor, wasn't it? But, you know, it's probably just made the rivalry, just that little bit more spicy.

New Zealand were galvanised into every time that we played. So it's actually a positive for New Zealand? Absolutely. Suddenly, and when they came back out the very next season to play us in one-day games, it was the most people who'd come to a stadium, something like 65,000. They came down all and out over and onto the grounds, and they were sitting around the boundary as well at Eden Park. It was a fantastic game.

We beat them as it happened that day, but Chapel got a. 100 and everyone sort of, you know, glumly applauded as he left, clapping with one hand, you know, sitting underneath them. So a very good thing for the popularity of cricket in New Zealand that game. How do you see New Zealand in this competition? Do you see them as, I mean, they got to the final last time, do you see them as potential winners, or do you see them as just a bit back from the rest?

No, I see them as potential winners. New Zealand has always been interesting, you know, before every major tournament in World Cups, you know a lot of the punters a lot of pundits say oh new zealand they're a dark horse or whatever don't see them as that i see them as a genuine contender and they've got they've got a fantastic cricket team you know they've got some depth in their squad you know i think they can challenge on all fronts i think they have all bases covered they are a genuine contender for this world cup absolutely no question what about your memories of playing against them

is anything in particular sticking the mind i remember playing um test series o one 2002, 2001, 2002. We had a nil-all draw, three test series. The overriding memory is just how well-planned they were. I remember distinctly that they had a plan when Glenn McGrath bowled to just let him go because they'd done their research and he'd bowled in the last 12, 18 months. You know, only a very small percentage of deliveries at Glenn Bold were actually hitting the stump. So their game plan was literally just let him go, let him go.

And so Glenn was getting frustrated. He was going to take of the wickets who he was used to taking. You need to get straighter and straighter, then they start picking him off. And that really stood out. And we played a test in Perth, and the top four all got centuries. And it felt like we're in the field for three days.

Do they just show just how good a cricket team they actually are? How much did losing to Australia in the World Cup final hurt New Zealand as opposed to any other country? Well, it always, you know, if it does mean something to the New Zealanders to have it to be in Australia, yes, it does hurt him. a little bit more. It doesn't to me so much. I just see it as a kind of a game,

but I think the rest of New Zealand would really like that not tap. There's a lot of two and throwing, I'm sure, across the Tasman on Twitter and on phones and so on and a lot of head offices in different places. And so there's lots of little chats going on between people. Yeah, and the fact that it had built up a lot of expectation, New Zealand hadn't actually lost a match up into that stage of the tournament.

So they were very keen to win that. and it happens so quickly and so early. What about this game? Australia against New Zealand at Lords. I mean, it's a massive occasion for New Zealand, well, and for Australia, but specifically for New Zealand, do you think? Could be, could be really big. Australia will be tough.

They've already played there at Lords the game before. They'll have been set up, they know the angles, and it's a day-night game, and New Zealand are going to have to play really well to try and beat that Australian team. To play the home of cricket, you know, is something that you treasure as a player. I mean, I, even as a coach now in county cricket,

you know, it's a bit of a buzz and excitement going to Lords to be involved in county cricket, you know, and county games are great because you get four Lord's lunches. It's amazing. If you can make it last four days. If you can make it last four days, that's right. But look, it's a special place, you know, and certainly from Australia point of view and New Zealand point of view, to have a World Cup game at Lords between our two countries. as I said, there's a great rivalry,

but there is a deep respect for both ways. You know, at the end of the day, New Zealand's one of our closest neighbours as a country and, you know, we'll always back them and support them and, you know, I'd like to think vice versa. What about the prospect of two New Zealand-Australia matches at Lords? Do you see that as a possibility? What do you think, India, England,

and perhaps one or the other strong enough? Look, I think it would be amazing. But let's face it, for Australia's there, I'm happy whoever plays, you know, part of me thinks it'd be great Australia v England leading into the ashes. I think that would be an amazing spectacle. Australia, New Zealand, in a replay of the 2015 World Cup, obviously India as well,

you know, who are playing some pretty wonderful cricket at the moment. I just think this World Cup, I think whoever has made that final, they'll deserve to be there, and I think it'll be an absolute cracking game of cricket. The TMS podcast, available every day during the Cricket World Cup. Well, throughout the World Cup, we've been trying to get a listener in every single single country around the world. We've ticked off another three today. Apparently, we're huge in Lichtenstein, San Marino and Iran. Scott Reid, who's been on TMS duty here at Durham, is alongside me, Scott. We're going to start in San Marino. Guy Havord and Tom Hamp. Now, they've ticked off

San Marino for us and saying, listening to several TMS podcasts, we couldn't believe you that you haven't ticked off San Marino yet. For the last fortnight, they've been driving around Italy watching the European Under-21 football tournaments for an equally esteemed broadcasting organisation. Leave it to you to decide who that is. We spent two days in San Marino covering England's inability to live up to pre-tournament expectation and crash out before the semi-finals.

That sounds fairly familiar, doesn't it? Definitely no parallels with the cricket world cup then. He says, come on England, say Guy and Tom, and that is a massive tick in the box of San Marino. And we're off to... Lichtenstein. Of course we are. Darren Tom.

He says, have a friend passing through Lichtenstein on Sunday slash Monday. He's German, but we'll do as I say. Excellent. And have a listen for a few minutes. Does this count for the missing gaps? Absolutely does. Well, we'll see. We will absolutely see.

But if you're being forced to listen to it, and that's well played, you've got to say by Darren Thompson, if you're forcing your German friend to listen to Test Match Special podcast, firstly, we hope he knows what's going on. But secondly, let's hope he's enjoying it anyway. and maybe if he gets a name check, then he went, well, he's actually not, in fact, Darren's not named, isn't he? So I'm sorry about that, but if you are listening, it is you. Let's move to Iran. Simon Lochmuller, I have the pleasure to be alternating my listening between my work address at the British Embassy in Tehran

and visiting my family and being a proud dad at my daughter's graduation in Bournemouth. Go well, says Simon. So Iran, massive tick there. Renard, who's listening, I think I've pronounced his name. Is it Reinhard? I don't know. Reinhard? Reinhard?

I went for Renard, but it could be Reinhard. Let's go with Renard. It says, dear TMS team. In yesterday's podcast, you read an email from an Englishman stating that he had been to Uruguay two years ago. He asked if that accounted for Uruguay being a country with a TMS listener, Andy Saltzman, immediately rejected the idea. I can now proudly announce that I have met two Uruguines yesterday, and I listened to the TMS podcast. Does that count, question mark? Furthermore, I have met these two Uruguayans. Wait for it. This is the crucial thing. In Liechtenstein. Okay. Two countries, Uruguay and Lichtenstein.

Confused now. Yeah, carry on. Okay. I am Austrian living in Lichtenstein for 10 years. Can you tick off at least one of those countries? So he's met two guys from Uruguay. He's living in Lichtenstein. But he's Austrian. But he's Austrian. Okay. I think so that's, we're having that We've got Swedish parents. But here are the rules, and basically we've got this written in front of us in capital letters. So the countries that do count, Liechtenstein, does count. We already have Austria, so bad luck on that front. Now, speaking to Uruguayans does not count.

They actually have to be listening in Uruguay. So get your European friends, your Uruguayan friends, to speak to their family members over in Uruguay. They might not know why they're downloading the TMS podcast. But they might very well do And that would give us our tick in the box We are still looking for 38 more countries Scott, give us the list Apologies in advance

We're still looking for these 38 more countries Here is the list Two lads from Burnley trying to name 38 countries here Good luck everyone Are we doing, am I doing all these? I'll tell you what, we'll stop at Moldova And I'll take over Okay, here we go Afghanistan, Benin

Burundi, Chad, Comoros, Congo DPR Korea or probably more frequently known as North Korea. Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Eritia, Guinea Basu, Haiti, Kiribati, Kuwait, Libya, Lithuania, Marshall Islands, Microncia, Federation thereof, Nauru, Nicaagra, Nijia, Palu, Republic of Moldova. And that's where I'm stepping in now. Excellent. I do know that Eritrea is one of the ones that you got wrong.

The Federated States of Micronesia, and I only know that because it was on an episode of the West Wing. Nicaragua, Niger, and now it's me, Sautome and Principae. Sautom and Principi, I'm looking round the commentary box here, and behind me, Kevin Howells is giving us a thumbs up. at Somalia, Sudan, Suriname, Syria, Togo, Tonga, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Venezuela and Yemen. Now, please, we do need to try and complete this. If you know of anyone in these countries, or if you're heading to any of those countries, please give the podcast to listen. Let us know, TMS at BBC.co.com.uk and put podcast in the title.

If not, well, me and you, Scott are going to actually have to go on to a trip to some of these. Get those in. TMS at BBC.com.uk. Put podcast in the title. We're looking for all 38 of those countries if we can. Thank you so much for listening. We have a World Cup doubleheader on Saturday. Pakistan take on Afghanistan at Headingley. That's at 10.30 a.m. And of course, New Zealand face Australia at Lourdes for 1.30. Ball by ball commentary of both matches will be on the BBC Sport website and app. And test match special is on five live sports extra from 9.30 in the morning. by the BBC Sounds app for a new episode every day. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.