Test Match Special - CWC Day 42: England prepare for Aussies, as New Zealand stun India

Episode Date: July 10, 2019

Jonathan Agnew speaks to England captain Eoin Morgan ahead of their World Cup semi-final against Australia at Edgbaston - we're also joined by former Australia captain Steve Waugh, who possibly isn't the type of man to walk around a ground barefoot. But the current captain has gone to see The Queen's Corgi at the cinema in preparation for the match. Meanwhile, New Zealand stun India to reach the World Cup final - we hear from Virat Kohli, Kane Williamson, and a very happy Jeremy Coney.

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Cricket World Cup. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Nathan's going up with appeal and they's done it. The final wicket falls for India. Pure Allation for New Zealand and a dismal day for India who came to this tournament with all sorts of hopes. Fireworks go off up above us here in the commentary box. India, disconsolate. New Zealand. Allation. Well, what a result against all the odds, New Zealand, or play in their second consecutive World Cup final at Lords on Sunday after that thrilling victory against India at Old Traffat today.

We'll hear from Virac Koli, Kane Williamson, as well as a very happy Jeremy Coney on just what happened, but who will they play in the final? It's a longer podcast today, as there's so much to get in, as England prepared to play Australia. We'll hear from Owen Morgan on why criticism from Kevin Peterson is like criticism from Jeffrey Boycott. And I've also been speaking to the former Australian captain, Steve Waugh,

and man, I can't imagine spending a lot of time walking around cricket fields barefoot. Available every day during the Cricket World Cup. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, we're 24 hours away from England's biggest one-day international match for a generation. The first time they've been in a World Cup semi-final since 1992. And with me here at Edgebasson, Vic Marks, who played in a World Cup semi-final in 1983, And Mel Farrell from ESPN Crick Info, 1983, Victor. Remind us as a match?

Well, all I can say is I hope it's a more uplifting game for English supporters. That match at Old Trafford against India, which we lost, having scored something like 213 out of the last ball of the 60th over. And they got them with two or three overs to spare. It wasn't a thriller. It wasn't really a thriller. It was very slow going. on a sort of slowish pitch. And England did not threaten to progress to the final,

having played really well throughout. Did it feel immense? Well, it probably didn't feel as immense as this game, if we're honest. The World Cup in those days was a much swifter, much more relaxed affair, and it didn't have the same kudos as the World Cup does now. I mean, if you offered someone in 1983, do you want the ashes of the World Cup? It's, oh, gosh, ashes, of course. Whereas I think most, even English people know,

if you offer them World Cup or Ashes, they'll say, World Cup, thanks. Which is interesting, Mel, because do you feel that the Oz's a bit more relaxed about this game than England are, in fact? Yes, I think Australia in general is probably more relaxed, in that I just think this means a lot more to England, partly because they haven't been beyond this stage in a World Cup. And everyone talks about, which I kind of think is nonsense,

this whole idea of it's in Australia's DNA, blah, blah, blah, that. I think that's kind of nonsense. That's gone down to professionalism in the past and the investment in it and having really great players, all those kinds of things I think have really helped Australia in the past. But as often happens, Australia's funny with cricket. Everyone's a cricket fan in the summer when it's on in front of them in Australia. When it's on in other countries, a lot of casual Australian cricket fans don't pay as much attention. And they're so used to success that I think it makes often Australian sporting fans, complacent about success. It's like if they don't win it, if they lose this game and they

don't win, I think people go, well, you know, they're lost. Whereas I feel if that happens to England, it will be seen as like, you know, this was our best opportunity. Oh, for sure. Well, that may be true, although I feel it's different. I haven't been to Australia for a while, but given the tumultuous 12 months they've had, if that were capped suddenly by winning the World Cup, which, you know, six months ago you thought, well, well, the best they can do is sort of survive without getting slated everywhere they go. So I expect, even in Australia, there must be a, since they're winning, they might be a modicum of interest of what's going.

I know, and I don't think to say it's not. There's a few more Aussie journalists over than sometimes, too. Yeah. I sense it building. I don't, I don't mean to suggest that they don't care. I just think that there's a difference between the level of what it means. Well, I agree with that. With England and Australia, I think it's true.

The other point I would make about 1999, And that epic here at Edgemiston's semi-final, the best game I've ever seen, I think, in one-day cricket, almost between South Africa and Australia. And I always thought that one of the reasons Australia won there, or tied it, which is all they had to do, was that they could cope with the possibility of losing in a way that the South Africans couldn't. And there's a sort of parallel here. Interesting. Let's talk about Australia in a minute. Let's hear, first of all, from a man who I know is not the least bit blasé. I've been interviewing all the way through this.

and it's fascinating to watch actually the progress of England up and down and then up again you have to say so here's the captain Owen Morgan talking to me earlier The TMS podcast at the cricket World Cup Owen I mean it's interesting you had a bit of time off and now suddenly switching back into the big one now

we have and I think needed time off the group stages took a lot out of us I think that was more due to sort of the rollercoaster of emotions and performance that we had throughout those nine games I think looking back on it actually hasn't worked out badly at all the last two games we played against

two of the other semi-finalists who are finishing off their game today and we managed to produce something close to probably our best performance in the World Cup so far so that's extremely encouraging we're looking to build on that hopefully tomorrow and keep the confidence and momentum going

have you managed to put this encounter to the back of your mind at all or is it just always just ticking away there or that little sort of tingle in the stomach, you know? No, I think when you get to the sort of the latter stages of a World Cup, I think you're probably more nervous playing against the side that you don't come up against very often. I think the fact that we've played against Australia

on numerous occasions, particularly over the last two and a half years or so, I think both sides know each other inside out. And I think, again, like Lords, hopefully two sides perform and it's a very good game of cricket, which should be produced for any semi-final of a World Cup. they did beat you there now does that matter at all I think looking back on that I think there was potentially a little bit of a hangover

from the Sri Lanka game that we took to Lords we came here and played against India and looked a different team and then went on to Durham to play New Zealand and again looked a better team for it so I don't think we can completely ignore it we do have to learn a little bit about Australia but perhaps a different make-up playing two left armour

as opposed to just one but certainly given it was three games ago now we look a different team I saw them lose to South Africa and actually at the end they looked pretty despondent actually they really wanted to kick that top spot and to get New Zealand and I remember saying

at the time I wonder if England can see this and see the players they really were quite slump shoulders and so on I guess they've had time to pick themselves up from that but they did take a bit of a hit there yeah losing any game of cricket throughout the tournament obviously sets you back certainly we were victims of that

particularly the Sri Lanka game like I mentioned it really did set us back but you know as regards our progress throughout the tournament it probably couldn't have gone any better since the Lord's game against Australia playing against two extremely strong teams

and you know semi-finals as well I think going into tomorrow's game we can be you know pretty proud of what we've done and look to move that progression forward even more yeah let's talk about Mitchell Stark shall we because that's obviously been aired a bit hit you badly a few years ago and there was a comment or two from you know where from lords do you find him an awkward proposition i mean he's a fine bowler he's a very good bowler and they

have quite a few fine bowlers patty cummins is another one and obviously jason berndoff is the other who will play but we've never singled out anybody as a potential problem or somebody that we can target everybody has a day off at some stage he obviously had a good day at lords and it was obviously jason berendorf's day taking five for in the game but going into any game any stage of your international cricket you're going to be challenged and different stages throughout your career i certainly think possibly four years ago i was challenged in that area certainly since then i've been challenged in different areas and over the last two years i've managed to counter them yeah i can only imagine how cross you were being accused of being scared

Steven Peterson comes out with a comment, it's actually very similar to comments that I address with Jeffrey Boycott. They're not ones that are considered, you know, good for a team environment and don't take the best interests of the team or the player at heart. You know, guys are trying their heart out to do well for their country, trying to learn, trying to get better. And, you know, we've critics being critics and they need to do that. That's their job. So let them be. All this hard work, all this preparation, and everything else. us, all the talk, suddenly it's here.

Yeah, we're delighted to be here for a stage throughout the group stages. It looked in question, but I don't think we could be better prepared. We're extremely excited and looking forward to it. Well, no prizes for guessing, I think, one of those interesting clips. Is that reference to Mitchell Stark and, of course, to Kevin Peterson and the Jeffrey Boycott on the comment that KP made about Morgan being scared? It's a big call to say that over an international batsman. It is a huge call, and that you can say,

there are things you can say and things you can't say. You can say that Morgan looked technically ill-prepared to cope with Stark, technically unsuited against the short wall. A bit late on it. We can all, yeah, a bit late on it, not out of, you can say all that. And I don't suppose Morgan would blush or disagree. But call someone scared, and you are in completely different territory. And that would have stung.

but Morgan being Morgan won't show too much I mean he showed a little bit but that will have stung and he'll be very keen to find a way to get some rums I thought actually get a lot of short stuff though isn't it he will he will and it depends but there's good short stuff and there's bad short stuff Stark actually uses the short ball very well

in that he varies his length a lot if he gets that with new ball he will be looking to find swing to start with but obviously when Morgan comes in he at some point will be peppered and will he take the, you know, discreet course and let it sail by or will he go for it, top edge, and who knows, we'll wait and see. But it's the use of scared or cowardice or anything like that that really goes. Yeah, look, Owen, we talked a lot about things that people have said about his career and he's been criticised a lot, so much, you know, him being the Irishman who becomes the England captain,

And his decision not to go to Bangladesh when England toured him. I mean, he has copped. I remember there were former captains who said that he wouldn't be able to look his players in the eye at the time. And one suggested that he would not be captaining England in this World Cup. So that, and when I asked him about it, he said to me, he sort of shrugged and said, I don't know how to care what other people think of me. He's very good with that. And even though some things might sting sometimes,

I think he genuinely has an ability to shrug an awful lot of stuff off and be able to focus on the people who he really cares what they think. And at the moment, I think that's his teammates. The first 10 overs will be critical for both sides because the power of Australia has been in their opening partnership. David Warner to the four. Aaron Finch, terrific. If you can get them out, you're right in business

because the rest are untrusted at the moment and the personnel seems to be changing rapidly. But if you don't get him out, you're in trouble and the same applies when you bowl at England. Well, the funny thing about that was it was in that game at Lords that Jason Berendor finally got his real opportunity. And he was the one, yeah, he bowled really well. He took five wickets.

And everyone was like, oh my gosh, why didn't, you know, why weren't they playing him before? It was the first time since the 2015 World Cup that Australia had opened with two left armours. And that before that was Mitchell Johnson and Mitchell Stark. So that's definitely been a talking point around and leading up to that, that they did so well with those two left armours here and without a doubt. But it is, I know what you say about those two up the top and the front foot and everything,

but it does seem like such a different combination when you see Johnny Bearstow with Jason Roy, as opposed to Johnny Bearstow with James Vince. Correct. That's absolutely. And Roy's return has lifted it. And we're thinking, I mean, England team-wise, same time. I can't see Mowin playing tomorrow? No, although when I listen to Morgan,

I don't know whether he was being cunning or not, but he said, we're going to look at this pitch in the fair. Depends how much grass they take off. And if they take a bit more grass off, then we'll have to consider a second spinner. Bigger boundaries today, well, they are bigger. So it'll be England, probably the same team,

but with just the possibility that Mowing could come in if they think. And I don't disagree with it. If conditions dictate, they think it will turn of it. They'll slip one in. Well, I've been talking to one of the greatest ever Australian captains, Steve Waugh, who's now acting as a mentor for this Australian team. From BBC Radio 5 Live, this is the TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup.

Oh, look, as a career, that's what you want. You want to play in the big matches in Australia versus England, semi-final of a World Cup. It doesn't get much better than that. Yeah. Well, it's interesting, and Jim Maxwell said this earlier, He gets the feeling that because, and I'm not going to say it's in a sledging sort of a way, because it's been so long since the Australia won the ashes here,

but maybe the Australian, don't put your eyes up like that, maybe the Australian focus is a bit more on the ashes maybe than on the World Cup, whereas England seems to be very focused on the World Cup. Do you think that's a fair comment? Look, I think they'd like both. If you had a choice, I'd say, Justin Lane would maybe want the ashes over the World Cup slightly, but having said that, he would love to win the World Cup

and all the Australian players would do as well. So, no, I think, you know, the focus for Australia is to win this tournament and to go on and win the ashes. And they're in a position where they can tick the first one off, hopefully. Yeah, and do you think momentum going forward from this could go into the ashes? It would certainly help, I mean, I don't think it's going to be crucial because they're totally different games, one-day cricket and test-match cricket. But it doesn't hurt if you've won the World Cup.

The confidence in the camp is nice. Everyone's happy and content, having a great time. It's a long tour for a lot of the guys. I mean so it is important to keep winning on long tours so you know that would be important to this round side to do well here yeah I was watching a game here against South Africa actually David Warner play well I mean you know they're sort of okay we we bar him grudgingly I suppose obviously but I mean someone like him is such a key player for it he is yeah and he's you know he's he's a quality player he scores runs regularly it's um you know I can't remember the last time that

he's failed consistently so and he just seems to even the last during this world cup knows his game a little bit better now. He's not flustered at the top of the order. He takes his time, but he knows he can eat forwards. He knows he can accelerate and scored a runner ball later on. So he's taking his time, building a platform together with Finch. Smith's a guy that's interesting, and he's a big match player. Whenever he writes Steve Smith off, you can guarantee he's going to score runs.

A lot of people are saying he's out of form, and maybe he's not having the World Cup he should have. I think he will be the batsman that for Australia will need to stand up in the semi-final if they're going to win. Yeah, inevitably, but people are focusing on those two. And they have very different characters, aren't there, and how they're coping with, I know you've only arrived, but, you know, there's a pretty resounding boo when they go out to bat and when they come back again and so on.

Do you think Steve Smith, because of the different character, we'll find that more difficult to deal with than Warner? I think so. I said that a couple of months ago, that Warner would be water for ducks back. You know, he'd probably encourage him to play more. And it's a different dynamic, too. If you're a former captain, you know, it's a lot to have that captaincy taken away from him. I know as a leader, it's the highest honouring in the game

to lead your country. and have that taken away, it does take something from you. You know, you feel as if you're probably not as, I don't know what the word is, but you lose your mojo a bit. So it's going to take him a while to feel comfortable playing international cricket again, not as a captain, just as a player. So I think we've got to give him a little bit more leeway than Dave Warner to work his way back, and it probably is going to be tougher.

Yeah. This role that you have now, tell me about that, Steve, mentoring and advice, I guess, an experience for the old fellow. Yeah, it's something new. Just Lange has been big on the fact that he wants some ex-players involved around the team. And I've actually mentored a lot of players over the years, not in a formal role, but I've talked to players since I retired 15 years ago. I did it with the Australian Olympic team in Beijing and London.

So mentoring to me is about observing people, helping out when you can. I've seen all the good and bad things that can happen in cricket. It's really giving the guys a roadmap to success that I've learned over my experience of playing 20 years in the Australian side. and really giving them some, I guess, advice when they need it, just observing, seeing things from a difference and maybe seeing things from a different perspective. Because a lot of times you're on tour together a lot,

you tend to see things the same way. So for me coming in, it's a fresh set of eyes. Yeah. And will you be in daily contact with the team? I mean, you've got to watch everything that they do. Yeah, I'll be with the team. I'll be part of the squad for the first six weeks of the tour. So there's the Australia versus Australia A match down at South Hampton,

then the first test, Edgebaston. Then there's a county match. Worcester and the second test at Lord. So, you know, after six weeks, if we're winning, I'll claim all the kudos. If we're losing, I pretend I wasn't there. Let's finish the thought about England and the one-day cricket particularly. Have you watched much of the way that they've been playing over the last couple of years? Yeah, I have, and I'm not surprised.

I mean, Trevor Bayliss is a good mate of mine. He's a nice and relaxed fellow that he lets people play their way. And if you've got the talent, which England have in their batting, go out and try and go from ball one, which they have. They bat a long way down. And in fact, they're 5, 6, 7 and 8 sometimes probably as good a batsman as the top 3 or 4. So why not play that way? I think if you do that,

and you pretty much guarantee two or three guys are going to perform each time, you're going to get a big score. So that's the method of use. They're comfortable with it. The captain is a guy that really seems to back himself and backs the team, and he embraces the pressure tag, which is a little bit different at previous England sides who have seemed to have taken it with a bit of a burden,

but this time they see pressure as a privilege, and that's a good way to look at it. Yeah, and it's an environment. in which it seems that if you play a bad shot and get out, actually, you're not going to be on the naughty chair and it's forgiving of those sort of things, which is easier than done, actually, isn't it? That's right, but that's important.

If you're going to play that style and that's your method of playing, then you can't just go the other way and say, oh, well, that was a silly shot. Why did you play that shot? So it's important if you're going to go 100% that way, then there's no ramifications if you play a bad shot because that's going to happen. If you're playing high-risk cricket,

sometimes it's not going to come off. I've got to ask you, who are you backing to win it? Well, of course there's only one obvious answer But, you know, it really is anyone's World Cup I look at the four semi-finals They're very good sides Even today, the match is evenly balanced And it just might take

I think Australia versus England The match is going to be won by the best fielding side And maybe the best fielding side Is going to win this World Cup Because it might come down to that individual brilliance of a catch Or a run-out at the crucial time A mentor, a proper appointed mentor, Mel That's a strange position, isn't it?

No, is it really, I don't know they seem to have a lot of people around the teams these days. And I think Steve War is a fairly revered figure. Some of the, I mean, some of the players, you hear them talk about Ricky Ponting. I mean, he's the one who's been around that team that Steve War might have been that little era too far in the past. I wouldn't like to say he's too old because, you know, that's not been missing away. I mean, he's not been involved at all. Yeah.

Whereas, I mean, I watched Ricky Ponting feeding the bowling machine for Marcus Stoinis. It must have been for about 45 minutes in the indoor net. at Trent Bridge and the way he was with him was absolutely amazing just patient giving him so much attention

I think he's given a hell of a lot I think he's made a huge difference to this Australian team so Steve War no doubt he'll have a few things would he approve of the barefoot walk about do you think

Steve War he sort of a thing's very much Justin Langer thing isn't it That is so not a Steve War thing to do It's a strange thing to do isn't it Yeah well look it's funny Because you know He played it down When he was talking to the media, he was like, no, no, we just, you know,

Haydoss and I used to go do it before a test match because it just feels nice. Whereas others in the team are like, well, you know, you know, he's pretty spiritual and zen. I can't imagine quite a few, but, you know. Jeff Thompson for that matter. But you know, there were a few tax out there, really, but elite psychology, I think. Oh, dear. But, of course, the new David Warner would almost. certainly do it, but the old one might not, but what a tournament he's having. I watched him play

that 100 yott against Africa the day. It's a terrific incident. It's amazing and fascinating to watch him throughout this tournament because he has seemed, especially early on, a different player. He hasn't been dominating bowling attacks in the same way that he did before he had the break. But he's found different ways of just working through out in the middle, whatever it is he's going through and staying there, working part of. it and you know obviously scoring he scored to two to his two lowest 50s I think in his career and he's found a way to kind of get through that and I just think he's got better and better whatever it is he's worked through he's found a way to to be out in the middle and kind of

think and feel his way through things I think might be the best way to describe it he does seem to cope with things better than Smith I mean they are very different characters aren't they but Warner does seem to kind of brush things off and I mean yeah he's presenting a different image certainly while he's playing but smith still looks the jittery fidgety you know that he always has been to an extent but but it's warner who really seems to have shrugged all this stuff off yes he's looked a bit hyped up at yeah even when he's defending there's some exaggerated movements and warner he did go slowly but a lot of people have sussed out that in this particular world cup slightly contrary to expectation for that first ten overs the impetus is actually

increasingly just keep those wickets in hand if you can rather than for feel the absolute necessity to blast, which is how people have been playing. And 320 is a good score rather than 360, 370. And particularly when the pace bowlers have had some influence, if you can get through the first spells of Cummins and Stark without losing a wicket, although Berendorf might take the new ball now, I should think. Then you are quids in because the support bowlers don't have the same potency. And you feel that's the way to go against India, you know, get through Bumra and whoever,

Shammy or Kumar and you're okay. So Warner's been, maybe he's been ahead of the game, maybe he's, but he's scored his runs and he's got a bit more fluent as time has gone by, and him and Finch have been a formidable pairing. Just a quick one, for Hanscom to come in straight into a World Cup semi-final, that's a big shout, isn't it?

A heck of a thing to come in and make your World Cup debut in a semi-final at Edgebaston against England. I mean, it's a change that's been forced upon them. They've had a couple of injuries. is that Justin Langer paid tribute to Pat Howard, the former high-performance manager, because they have had Australia A over here in this time. So if nothing else, Pete Hanscombe and Matthew Wade,

who's come into the squad and there's been various speculations about him and what he may or may not do. But if nothing else, they're coming into the squad, having played in England, in English conditions, sort of match-hardened. So that's probably as good as you can hope for. But it's a heck of a thing to come in. You're not part of the squad, and all of a sudden you're in a World Cup semi-final. Well, yeah, but any true Aussie will think this is, as they say, fantastic.

Because, you know, what an opportunity. You don't have to go trodying around all the country, at the Chesterler Street, the play game, just zoom in to the semi-final. That has to go. That's the way that's the word. Right. Last one, then. Who's going to win tomorrow? Victor? Well, I'm trying to be England.

I was going to say, I was trying to be objective. But I have a good feeling about England, actually. partly because they've they overcame quite a serious setback in those two losses. But I mean because it's a game of cricket

and a proper one in a fantastically tense wonderful, delicious circumstances there are no certainties here but I go England. I'm really nervous, just generally nervous. Just nervous

because I just expect it to be it. Yeah, but we're talking about this game. But just I think it's going to be an absolute cracker. I really think nothing's going to be left. out there at all. I feel the same way. I feel that England looks, I actually just asked Owen about this.

It was almost like when you see a batsman being dropped and then playing with more freedom afterwards for the rest of their earnings. I sort of feel like that's England's tournament. It was like they got given a bit of a scare and now they just look like their old selves. But I'd love to see them go to the final, to be honest, saying this is an Australian and see it on Free to Wear as well. All right. But Mel, what about this?

What is Aaron Finch going to do today? It's an interesting... I mean, what do you do? The day before, a World Cup semi-final. This is what the Australian captain's going to do. I think I'm off to watch a movie with the wife this afternoon. The Queens Corgi coming out today, so I'll be off to see that this afternoon.

And what's wrong with that? The Queens Corgi is... Well, there's a review that I've seen here. Just went to this movie today, but the first 10 minutes didn't catch me. The storyline sucked. Jokes for the adults are bad. my son wanted to sleep because he got bored

never had this with a movie in a long time two stars out of ten is that what you see before a World Cup semi-final I can guarantee you I would put my house my life on the fact that Owen Morgan would not go and see that film I think he's going to go see KP but yes Victor are you going to go to the Queen's Corgis

I won't have time to see it I'm not very familiar with the film It doesn't sound a sort of... I'm not sure it'll get a great review in The Guardian that one, I don't know. Fair enough. Well, look, it's nearly time. Whatever you're doing, our coverage of the match

begins at 9.30, live coverage from here. You can listen on 5 Live Sports Exeter, Radio 4, Long Wave, or via the BBC Sport website. The app where you can also watch highlights of the match as it's going on. From BBC Radio 5 Live. This is the TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup.

So we've spoken about England and Australia. The winner of that match will play New Zealand at Lords on Sunday after a dramatic 18-runer. win over India at Old Trafford. Eleanor Oldroyd was there. Thank you, Agassel. What an incredible couple of days we've had here at Old Trafford. All the drama yesterday of waiting around for the rain to stop, and then were they going to be

able to play the game yesterday or not? They didn't, so we started again today with New Zealand 211 for five. They added another 28 runs off, 23 balls. They lost three wickets in the process, and they set India 240 to win. And, yeah, just the sense that maybe that was going to be enough for them to defend, but it all depended on how the New Zealand bowlers started. And alongside me, Jeremy Coney, Prachashwakanker, and Andy Zaltzman. And Jeremy, you have to say, well, congratulations, first of all.

Victory by 18 runs. But it was down to those first few overs, wasn't it, in that New Zealand attack? That was a major component, wasn't it, that Bolt and Henry were able to pick up the batsmen that have scored so many runs, so many runs, and I'm sure Andy will tell us exactly how many runs in a moment, that for India throughout this tournament. So yes, that put India on the back foot. They fought hard, though they came back,

first of all through Pundia and punt, and then finally, of course, that one partnership with Jadasia and Doni, the two experienced men, and got more than just parity. They had almost got to a point where they were going to win the game. And then finally, because they were the last two recognized batsmen, things changed. And Prakash, I know that you have ridden a rollercoaster of emotions, haven't you, over the last couple of days. I have.

So how are you feeling now? Well, I'm trying to sort of just settle down. It's all sort of sinking in. It's not the first time I've experienced this. This is the third semi-final, but New Zealand have experienced it more than me. And I'm very happy that the Kiwis are in the final. Let's hope they can actually win their first World Cup. It'll be fantastic.

But that apart, I think the better side won. And as Jeremy said, the first few overs really just took the stuffing out, in a manner of speaking. Three wickets for next to nothing, then a fourth at 24. I think it was all, the writing was on the wall. It would have taken a superhuman effort. And Sir Jadeja, as we call him back in India, almost did it with the old warhorse. But sometimes, you know, fairy tale endings don't. don't end career. We saw that with the great Murlitharan when India won in 2011.

He went completely unnoticed. It was the last game. Doni is going to go, well, pretty much unnoticed. This is his last World Cup game for sure. He would have loved to finish it on a high, but it took a superb bit of fielding from Martin Gubtil. And this is the greatness of sport. Did nothing with the primary purpose for which he is in the team. Score runs. But hey, movement of magic. And that's what makes sports what it is, right? It makes it the ups and downs, the uncertainties, the glorious nature of it. And, yeah, much as it's disappointing, it's fantastic for the game of cricket. So we talk about this amazing performance with the ball early on from Trent Bolt and Matt Henry.

Five for three was the Indian score at that early stage, Jeremy. But it was more than that, wasn't it, for New Zealand? It was the fielding. There was an incredible runout as well from Martin Guptill to get rid of M.S. Doni, some incredible catches as well, that Jimmy Nisham catch to dismiss Dinesh Kartick.

So the all-around performance in the field was what won it for New Zealand in the end? Well, it certainly helped, didn't it? I mean, the bowler starts the whole transaction and then the fielders can come into play and if you hit your lengths and you hit your lines and those sort of things, then

you've set the field accordingly. The fielders do their job. So they all work together and I think, yes, I think the fielders ran hard, they worked hard, there was one catch drop, so it wasn't a perfect performance. There's always going to be fallibilities in sport. It's exactly what Prakash has just said, that your ups and downs, and you've got to kind of keep a nice even keel going through those things

and ride the emotions. Yeah, just at one comment, I think Kane Williamson said that to somebody, and I just picked it up on social media. He said he and Ross Taylor were talking about 240. They had just the wicket, they were thinking that 240 was what they were aiming for, which is why they played the way they did. Well, it's easy to say it, I suppose, easy for us to analyse it, I beg a pardon, at the end of the game.

But if indeed they were doing that, which had no reason not to believe, then I think they read the conditions very, very well and played to it. We were all critical of the way they were batting, but they clearly knew something that we didn't, which is understandable. There are, of course, the players out there, and they deliver to the plan. One of the great things about this tournament has been 240s, 260s. It hasn't been a 400 versus 380 kind of tournament at all. Thankfully, it's made some brilliant games where we can see humanity in front of us making errors and getting victories and so on.

That's what you want sport to do. And some amazing figures as well. And Andy Zaltzman. He's got some amazing figures. I know how excited you got at the start of that Indian innings. to see. He wasn't the only one. Kail Rahul, Roit Sharma and Virak Goley all back in the hutch for one each.

Yes, the first time in the history of international cricket men's and women's that numbers 1, 2 and 3 have all been out for exactly one each. That's the emergency number in New Zealand, 1-1-1. There you go. And it wasn't an emergency. On how good India's

top board had been through the tournament in the group stage, India's top three, so Rohit, Kail Rahul, Shikadai, before he got injured, and Virap Koli between them batted 24 times scored 1,537

runs and average fractionally under 70 7 centuries, eight other 50s and today three runs between them but we were talking about

New Zealand I don't think New Zealand have really batted well at any point in this tournament even in this game they've batted okay

but they have been statistically the strongest bowling team in the tournament they played on some difficult pitches for batting

which sort of factors into both of those stats but they were superb with the ball and in the field and often in world cups. You see players who've not necessarily

done much through the tournament, come up with a big performance in the semi-final and final. Last time Grant Elliott came from nowhere and played two brilliant innings in the semi-final that won the game and then played a good 80 in the final. So Ross Taylor struggled a bit at this tournament, played a useful endings, and then wickets for Matt Henry, three wickets in his opening

spell. He'd only had three in his previous five games, and Mitchell, Santa won in his previous three or four games, I think, and bowled a superb containing spell and picked up a couple of wickets. And don't forget Jadaja. Well, Jadaja, I mean, it is I think it will be one of the things when archaeologists dig up the record of this

tournament in thousands of years to come they will look at the history of cricket and wonder why Ravidja wasn't not necessarily the first name on the Indian team sheet but at least the fourth and one of the great one day innings that he played today in the circumstances of the game in a World Cup

semi-final the highest score in a World Cup knockout, the first 50 in a World Cup knockout match by anyone batting seven or lower and he came in at number eight where has he been all tournament It only played India's last group game. I think you can look at India's selection. And there's certain question marks on it.

Was Kartik the right man to be in the squad? He's not a particularly dynamic fielder. He's not done much with the bat. The injury to Darwin clearly disrupted them. But it was, and people have said all through the tournament, if India's top three fails, they will be in trouble. And that's exactly what happened to them. Well, let's hear from the Indian captain Virac Koli talking to Simon Dool.

Varat Kohli alongside me, take you back to the bowling from the first point of view, Varac, because I thought that was excellent from an Indian point of view. Yes, it was. I think the first half, we were very, very good with the ball in the field. I think we were spot on. Absolutely what we needed to get. We got in the field, and we thought we had restricted New Zealand to a total, which was quite chisible on any surface.

But, yeah, the way they came out and they bowled in that first half an hour really was the difference in the game. How did you feel sort of a two-day-one-day-a? How did you feel when you woke up this morning coming to the ground, confidence levels? Yeah, it was fine. I mean, we knew that we had a good day yesterday, and we were very proud of that effort,

and then a very professional effort again with the ball today, this morning. So we felt like we had the momentum and we had the right mindset to go in, but the credit has to go to New Zealand bowlers because with the new ball, I think they're outstanding with the areas that they hit and the kind of swing that they got on the surface, the help that they got from the surface. So I think it's the skill level that was on display for everyone,

and it made life very difficult for the batsman. Prakash, everyone expected India to be in the final, one way or the other, top of the group stages, so much passion for cricket in India, so much passion for cricket among the fans who came here for two days in a row. What impact will it have back home in India that they have lost in the semi-final? Well, first of all, it's not that they have lost for the first time, but yes, I think there will be two kinds of responses, Ellie. There will be the rationalists who will rationalise sport,

say India fought well, talk about jadeja's in innings, talk about Doni's last game, etc., etc. And then there will be several with knives out, because there'll be about 1.16 billion selectors and administrators who'll talk about why not this, why not that, they'll split hairs, all that will happen. It will reach a crescendo. India will tour the West Indies, probably win there, and all will be forgotten. Coley has a really awful record in knockout matches, not just World Cup.

Champions Trophy failed in the final. He's only two half centuries. He's looking at Asia Cup, Champions Trophy in World Cup. In I think 11 innings, he's had two half centuries. Both have been in relatively low chases when the openers have already put on runs. In the World Cup, he's played six knockout matches and never scored more than 35. He got single figure scores in 2015 and another one here today. It's a curious glitch in his otherwise glittering one-day career.

It's by far the highest batting average of one-day batsmen from the top-ranked nations. It's a curiosity. And Doni, we've seen Doni over the last four years, some of his speed of scoring stats, he's amongst the slowest scoring players from the teams in this tournament going back a long way now. And he sort of batted India into a hole they, he left Jadaja and himself way too much to do. There was no sense of looking to turn the strike over.

He was chewing up a lot of dot balls, and almost he was sort of waiting for his own myth to suddenly be reborn. And I thought he played a poor innings, really. Even, you know, 50, got India within a chance, but he thought a little bit more proactivity earlier on. He was oddly passive, and despite Jade's heroics at the other end, he left India in an almost impossible situation. Prakash, thank you very much indeed.

Well, let's hear now from the victorious New Zealand captain, Kane Williamson with Brian Waddell. Kane Williamson, congratulations that's beating the I suppose favourites for the title you're rated as the underdogs it's a great achievement

Yeah a great effort by the lads We knew that Well to be fair I thought the guys assessed the conditions Beautifully in the first half Where the Wicked again looked like A very good one

But it certainly didn't play that way It was a tough surface And we sort of spoke about it As a batting unit if we got to 240 Then we thought we'd be right in the game and it proved to be the case and look out any surface you play in here on

they're always an extremely tough challenge they are I think number one in the world for a reason or in the top two at least so a great battle out there funny that it's sort of spread over two days but perhaps the fairest way to play it in the end and you know a lot of hearts shown by our guys I'm one who didn't think you had enough

so I'll eat my humble pie and happy to do so tonight but a great opening spell with the ball too oh yeah I mean a fantastic start when you're, like you say, defending a total like that. Although it was perceived to be a smallish total on that surface, it was always going to be competitive. But to get the start that we got,

gave us a brilliant platform to build from and try and squeeze as a bowling unit collectively. And like I say, there was just so many contributions that certainly went a long way for us to getting crossed the line today. But feet on the ground because we've got another game. Well, that was Kane Williamson with Brian Waddle, Jeremy Coney. As a former New Zealand captain yourself, what have you made of Kane Williamson's captaincy in this game, but in the World Cup as a whole?

He's had his moments at some stages and some matches when you felt that he needed to go for the throat and put the knee on the throat and asphyxiate teams. He did it against Australia when they were five for 90 and then allowed it to sort of just push out. But he didn't hear. He rotated his bowlers quite intelligently. He had a bit of a problem. with the fifth bowler and the Nisham de Grondom Axis if you like and he just kept pushing it away, pushing it away

and trying to build up the tension of the game so India had to keep playing the big shots to try and stay in the match and allowed Nisham to go to the 50th over it actually worked for him sometimes that does work sometimes of course you're left but it worked for him today who were going to be their bowlers at the death because so Bolt and Henry had finished their overs with two overs still to go Yeah, and Ferguson had an over to bowl as well. So you then had, but it was going to be Ferguson, Nisham at the end.

But it came off for him, didn't it? It did. It did because of the slow pressure of Bolt and of Ferguson and of those bowlers that slowly built the whole thing up and then finally it created the opportunity. As I thought it might, I kept on saying, look, there's going to be more, there's a twist in the tail here in this game, and it was Jadaja, had to finally, because of the Dony factor of not scoring quite quickly enough, Jadaesia had to put his foot to the floor.

The switch went down, it created the chance, and, well, actually, it was Williamson who was underneath it. So he's a very calm man, calm eyes, and very knowledgeable about the game, speaks about the game very calmly. And I think that's a very important thing for a captain, that you don't get involved in the emotion of the game too much.

Do you think they've got lucky? Well, no, I don't think it was luck that got them through in this particular match. They certainly haven't played to their potential. I've seen these players now for the last 10 years, some of them emerging, and they've shown a lot more than they've been, you know, here in this tournament. And I thought today their bowling and their fielding showed as a side. That's where you see a side really together, don't you, out in the field. And I thought that they worked very hard and they got some success early

and then they carried on with it today. They hung in there, you know, for their team. Every player hung in there. And, well, just further on, New Zealand confounding pre-tournament expectations, you know, it was expected to be this tournament of hyper-aggressive batting. And New Zealand have scored boundaries the least frequently of any team one every 12.64 deliveries across the tournament fractionally behind Sri Lanka, England and Australia being the two most regular boundary hitting sides.

So again, New Zealand have almost defied their own batting with their excellence with the ball. Who do you think they would like to play in the final, Jeremy, if you could offer them, England or Australia? Probably Australia. But, I mean, that's not because they're frightened of England. I think they'll take anybody there in the final and they won't really worry too much about that. If they can put runs on the board, we know from those things that Andy has just told us that they will be. pretty effective and they'll be a difficult component to beat. The question is

can they? Well, no one really knows the answer to that. There's no pressure on them though, is there really? When you think, you know, Australia defending champions, England have never won it at home if they were to get to the final. There is no pressure arguably on New Zealand because they've defied the odds

to get there. Yes, they have. They have defied it and they'll be delighted that they're there and they will grow enormously as I think as people and as players because of that. And that makes them a dangerous little unit, I think. You know, suddenly we might get a 30 from a place we didn't expect Santner.

Or suddenly you might get Nichols getting a 50, and suddenly you might get Gaptal hitting a few early on, and he'll be away. So that's ahead of us. I hope that they do themselves justice. Well, thank you very much indeed to Jeremy. We'll see you at the final on Sunday.

Now, Andy, we need to clear something up here. We had an email from Neil Fox, who is listening to the podcast, while fly fishing in Christmas Island. So... Presumably just off Christmas Island rather than in Christmas Island. Off Christmas Island.

So we ticked off Micronesia in our quest to find somebody listening to the TMS podcast in every country in the world, but quite a few people have emailed in. Here is Stephen Harper who says Christmas Island in the Pacific Ocean is part of Kiribas.

Yes, we pronounce it Kiribati. That's just its nickname. Just, you know, you stick a while on the end of... I've named, I think. Kiribati. Kiribati, it is. It's not part of the Federated States of Micronesia.

As you said. All right. Chair's gone down. Okay, right. People are very angry about this. So we can tick off Kiribati, brackets Kiribati, but put Micronesia

back on the list. That's courtesy of Neil Fox. He basically didn't know what country was in. Yeah. So we're blaming Neil rather than ourselves for our geographical ignorance. Absolutely, absolutely, that's fine.

However, Rob Presler says, I am listening to the TMS podcast in Malabo, Equatorial Guinea, which I think is one of your missing 19 countries. I work in the oil industry out here doing four weeks on, four weeks off, when home in the UK, I continue to watch Leicestershire's trials and tribulations. God, it's a good balance in life, isn't it? Comparisons between Malabo Equatorial Guinea and... And Grace Road?

I imagine they're almost interchangeable on they? Bruce Torrin says I've managed to convince my friend Evan to listen to an episode of the TMS podcast in Yemen whilst unpacking in the UN compound apparently it's hailing there at the moment Evan enjoyed the podcast and is now a firm fan so spread it to everyone in Yemen

let's see if we can get more than 90% of the Yemeni people listening to this podcast. It might help. It might. Nicola says this, Nicola Howes. I have just come back from a fortnight scuba diving in Palau. Very nice. I can confirm that I did indeed listen to your podcasts whilst out there. Am I the first to tick it off? Well, yeah, did this raise the question. Did you listen to the podcasts, Nicola, whilst in the ocean?

So can we tick off the Pacific Ocean as well? Underwater podcast listening. That's the future of podcasts. And Richard Kent says I think it's impossible and certainly illegal to tune into the BBC in North Korea. And I don't think you would want to encourage illegality, certainly not at the BBC. and the risk of imprisonment for anyone trying to listen to TMS there. Yes, I imagine if you don't know anything about cricket and you listen to TMS, you would think it's some kind of secret government code

explaining some kind of military strategy. Yes, Trent Bolt's figures were actually some kind of strange... Yes. I think cricket commentary generally does sound quite often like it's been put through some kind of Google Translate facility about 12 times. However, continues Richard. keeping within the bounds of what is legal and physically possible, my father, John Kent, sadly no longer with us,

was a lifetime member of MCC and a devotee of TMS. He visited North Korea three or four times in the last 12 years as part of a friendship building group for two weeks at a time. There were several Aussies also in the group, and he enjoyed a lot of cricket banter with them, so I can assure you that cricket has been discussed in detail and the good name of TMS frequently

invoked in North Korea. Is that enough to qualify as having half a toe in North Korea? I don't think it does, I'm afraid. Unless we can actually confirm that Kim Jong-un has tuned in. Maybe he discussed it with Donald Trump when they were there together the other day. Look, those are two gentlemen who urgently need the civilising influence of cricket in their souls.

Quite right. So we still need North Korea. We've not a lot got long to go. And if anyone wants to download the podcast before you go and listen to it down there, do you think that that would dodge the kind of strict regulations about what you can and can't listen to? I imagine if you sneakily listen to it whilst marching in a large military parade, no one will spot you. I think it could be considered as subversive,

especially when you and Jeremy Coney are on it together. So, Luke Clancy says this. I'm listening in potentially the world's newest country. Greetings from the sunny South Pacific and the autonomous region of Bougainville. Although presently, says Luke, an autonomous island region of Papua New Guinea, located close to Solomon Islands,

Bougainville is holding a referendum in October on whether to remain part of PNG, or become an independent nation state following a civil conflict in the 1990s. While this might be too late to assist with the current quest to find a TMS listener in every country of the world, I thought I would help you to possibly get a jump

on any similar endeavour in the future. Right. Maybe you have to do it during the Olympics, Ellie. Yeah, do we think so? I mean, it's quite you can just go around of athletes there, right? Yeah, exactly, if you find flag bearers. So the list of countries still to tick off,

We have 16 left to go. Burundi, Chad, Comoros, North Korea, Djibouti, No, she went of her own accord. Eritrea, Guinea, Guinea, Bissor, Libya, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, back on the list. Nauru, Nigeria, Sudan and Togo. And Togo is what India now have to do. Andy, thank you very much indeed, as always. So we have put one back on the list, but we have lost three. Is that right?

So if you know anybody in those 16 countries, or if you're going there yourself, and you're planning on listening to the TMS podcast, then let us know. You've only got a few more days to do it. It's TMS at BBC.co.com. UK and put podcast in the title. Back to you, Agas. Ellie, thanks very much. Our coverage of the match begins at 9.30, live coverage from here on 5 live sports extra,

Radio 4 Longwave, and via the BBC Sport website on the app we can also, of course, watch the highlights during the match. And there'll be a TMS podcast available to download after the game with full. reaction. The TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup. Download and subscribe via the BBC Sounds app for a new episode every day.