Test Match Special - CWC Day 45: The Final Countdown

Episode Date: July 13, 2019

The day before the World Cup final, Eoin Morgan joins Jonathan Agnew to explain just what winning the tournament would mean to him, and to the game in this country. We hear from Mark Wood, who promises that he’ll bring his horse back if England win, and from Brendon McCullum, the man who has heavily influenced both sides.Jeremy Coney compares the final to Agincourt, with Kane Williamson as Henry V, and Jimmy Anderson talks us through England’s last World Cup failure in 2015, and we look at why it could be so different this time.

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And Morgan heaves that away, over mid-arm, and England are through to the World Cup final. What a famous victory here today. It's a huge privilege to be able to go out and play in a World Cup final. Tomorrow's a couple of things for me. It's an opportunity to sell this great game that we all love on a huge platform, but also an opportunity for us to go out and win a World Cup. Hello, I'm Jonathan Agnew at the home of cricket, Lords. I've been here many times over the years, seen many matches,

but I've never seen England in the final of the Cricket World Cup. Tomorrow, Owen Morgan's men will take on New Zealand. History beckons for both sides, neither of whom have ever won the competition before. In this podcast, we'll hear from Owen Morgan, from Kane Williamson, from Mark Wood, on whether we'll see his imaginary horse here at Lords tomorrow, and from Brendan McCullum, a man who's been so influential on both these sides. We also hear from Jimmy Anderson on where the World Cup went so wrong four years ago,

where it's going so right this time around. And Paul Farbrace will tell us England's plans on how to get Kane Williamson out. The TMS podcast, available every day during the Cricket World Cup. Well, with me are the former England Osborne and Vic Marks and the former New Zealand captain, Jeremy Coney. Love we'd have you both here. Victor, you've been shuffling around all day, haven't you here at Lords? The atmosphere is a real buzz, isn't it?

It's terrific. Well, I went to the press. I don't always. important for me to go to the press conferences. It does. And they are held in the real tennis court here, which is out behind the pavilion. It's quite a big court, a real tennis court, and there was not a seat to be had. There weren't many Kiwi journalists, but it was absolutely jam-packed, and I suddenly remembered, hang on a minute, I'm at the centre of a global event here. Yes. And it reminded you that this is a big match. A big match for two countries

who haven't been there before. Well, that's the point. I mean, we're clearly, We're all getting very excited about this, but actually neither team has won it. And in fact, New Zealand's record in the World Cup is actually rather better than England. So then finalists last time around. They're used to the big occasion. Yep, six of them were there last time around, and three bowlers. So that'll help the bowling unit, I guess, and three batsmen at the top. So that's nicely divided, isn't it?

Yeah, of course it's going to be a great day. I hope it's a celebration of the game. Yeah, exactly. And do you feel, I mean, for New Zealand to beat India, for good of sake, and we left Chesterloo Street when England beat New Zealand there quite easily, actually. And there was the sight of Kane Williamson talking to Brennan McCullum. It looked like a bit of an sort of emergency meeting really there on the outfield, the captain and former captain there together.

They have turned it around, haven't they? I just felt there that they were on a bit of a skid. Well, even further than that, because I think probably halfway through that match against India, a lot of people felt maybe Kane had made the right, the wrong choice, hadn't quite got enough runs. But, you know, New Zealand, as you say, have been here probably five or six times, not in the final, but in the semi-finals. I think that most people felt that this tournament and the format was fair, the best one we've had for a while, most pundits thought, playing crunch matches along the way. Oh, but then you were fortuitous New Zealand, you got the one point from India and the rain. game. Well, we then proceeded to beat India, so who was the lucky side? We don't know. So we got

through to the semi-finals and we've beaten, you know, major nations. So, I think we deserve to be here, actually. That's not to say that probably, you know, the scribes and I think probably most of the objective criteria would say that England are the better side. That doesn't mean they win, as we've just... It's one-day cricket, and that's the attraction. But I just wonder, again, your perspective, you'll have watched the New Zealand, sorry, you'll have watched the England Australia match and the way, the manner in which England disposed of Australia there.

I mean, that would send a few shivers through Kiwi Spines, wouldn't they? Well, as I said, I think, you know, we can't match the artillery and we can't match perhaps the archer kind of... Firepower? Yeah, up front. So the first ten overs for both teams, I guess,

are going to be. be, you know, the portent for the game, and if New Zealand can somehow get through those. They've had four close matches, and if they can take England there, I think they will feel they've got certainly an even chance of going further, because we were a little lucky against Bangladesh when the bales were knocked off by Mushfika, and you thought luck, but you win three or four more games like that, and it suddenly changes. It's not just luck. They know how to handle that pressure. Yeah, they've been good in tight games. I think it would suit, we don't quite know what we're going to get out here. We haven't had

massive scores at Lords. I think it would suit New Zealand to have a relatively low scoring game. That's where they prosper. In those tight games, whether defending or maybe, we always say chasing, but it's not always a chase. Kane Williamson's there. Eking. King. King Williamson is going to be such a key man in that batting lineup. But I think it would suit New Zealand to have one of those tight, relatively low-screen.

England are at their most dangerous if they get on a track that is just fantastic for batting because then the likes of Roy Bearstove been very, very good in the last few games. The chances of them being victims to a tricky delivery are less

and they just go for it and they're both in very good form. What is it about New Zealand? We admire you lot Jeremy, we do. There's something about something like your steel You're fighters, aren't you? I think that's delicious. Yeah, we're not good.

If this is a surface tomorrow, where 400 is par, it'll be a process. You know, we're not going to get that. It's a fact of it. And, you know, it may be a celebration for those people who are around the English team. However, if we get to a 300 surface that you can't get, just there's a bit of movement either in the air or off the surface of the pitch and you can't just hit through the line and length doesn't matter so much then i think we've got a little arjun core going on where we're basically the english become the french army and you and cane is

walking around like henry the fifth with his happy few you see so we're supposed to use that's it's our inspiration and actually the english like that kind of team yes we fight just exactly what you're saying you're scrappers that's what you're you can't pinch edge they'll pitch anything they'll pitch anything let's change the subject and I spoke to the England captain Owen Morgan earlier Owen well I've been asking the same question all the time but I mean how

how are you feeling now ahead of ahead of the World Cup final? Very well excited about the opportunity excited about the day and excited for everybody in the change room I think throughout the tournament we've played some really good cricket I think probably

the best cricket we've played has been in the last game in the semi-final against Australia a very strong Australia team and we managed to front up and play a fantastic all-round game of cricket which is great because it means we go into the final

feeling quietly confident yeah do you think you answered some questions in that match I mean chasing again for a star but just the way that you responded to the pressure of a semi-final yeah I think extremely well I think we've gone from strength to strength since the India game at edge piston I think everybody has stood up.

I think the way we started in particularly the other day, Joffre and Chris were absolutely relentless with the accuracy that they bowled. They did take advantage of conditions, but I thought, you know, I haven't seen a opening spell of bowling like that ever in my career, certainly with a white ball. And then everybody that followed it seemed to create opportunities, even when Smith and Kerry managed to get a problem. partnership going we still managed to create chances yeah to to come off a victory like that

I mean it wasn't just a victory I mean it's hammering the momentum from that that must be a great thing to take into tomorrow yeah I think so I think mentioning chasing you know in throughout the whole tournament it's been a question mark over every side given the way the wickets have played with the extra added pressure as well on top of the wickets probably getting worse in the second innings that does give us another feather in a cap and It also reinforces that we enjoy chasing. So given tomorrow, if we do lose a toss and actually are chasing, we're quite comfortable with that.

And for us, that's a nice place to be. What will it mean to win it? I mean, I know it's an easy question, and we sort of held off from asking it up to now, but I mean, it is there tomorrow for the taking. What would it mean to you to win the World Cup tomorrow? It didn't mean everything. The culmination of four years of extremely hard work, planning.

a lot of determination and resilience in the changing room at different stages throughout that four years, but it would mean a huge amount and obviously a huge amount for everybody around the country. The good faith, support and enthusiasm that they've shown throughout the tournament to back us as being brilliant. And it's a huge privilege to be able to go out and play in a World Cup final tomorrow.

Yeah. I'm just raising the spectre of New Zealand, though, and they have beaten India. Would all of that not count if you lose tomorrow? No, I think it still would count. I think we've come a hell of a long way in the last four years after being humiliated in the last World Cup and coming into this World Cup having made substantial amount of ground and almost turning the way we play around

and making 50 off cricket a bit more excitable with the way that we play. I think it's important to recognise the work that has been done and the foundations that have been laid. And it's not just for this World Cup, it's for the future. We'd all like to be contenders going into every World Cup and not just an afterthought, as we probably have been before. So that's a lot of hard work that's been behind us. And I think we've earned the right to be in the final tomorrow because of that.

But I don't think it's all or nothing tomorrow. It does seem incredible four years on, Owen. I mean, perhaps what you thought when you were told the target, we're going to win the World Cup in four years' time. I can't even imagine that conversation taking place at Adelaide that night. I can't imagine you and I sitting here four years after that to be in the World Cup final. I mean, it's an absolute transformation. It's incredible when you look back that far.

It is two different teams really in the way that we play, in the way we almost push oppositions back if we're given the opportunity. And it's a great team to play for. It's really exciting. Guys embrace every challenge that we come up with, whereas perhaps before we might have shot. aside away from it a little bit and focus a little bit too much on ourselves. We really look forward to, you know, big, big moments in games or big, big games that fall on our lap.

So one of those is tomorrow and we're excited about it. Yeah, but in a positive way, that's the thing, again, what the Australia match must have proven for you. You can rise to the big occasion, you can handle it. Absolutely. In an extremely positive way, I know I speak with a pretty dour voice when I do. And the guys are extremely excited about it. And it does suit the way that we play. It means that when there is pressure on,

we actually have to be more positive, more extreme in the method in which we play. And that does suit us. And I thought about New Zealand, they do this in World Cups, don't they? They come up on the rails. They've beaten India,

again, probably the biggest shock in the World Cup. So you won't be taking them the least bit for granted tomorrow. No, not at all. They're an extremely impressive outfit. They were the best team throughout the group stages. and have improved since then. The semi-final, the performance against India was extremely impressive. They're an extremely difficult side to beat.

They're very well-led. They've a lot of experience. So I think tomorrow is going to be a really exciting game. You can manage to enjoy it as well? Yeah, I hope so. I'm going to try and take as much as I can in, as long as it doesn't affect performance. But tomorrow's a couple of things for me.

It's an opportunity to sell this great game that we all love. on a huge platform but also an opportunity for us to go out and win a World Cup So that's Owen Morgan sounding quite confident As you can imagine again They're sort of rolling in off Australia

I think Victor they feel like I can be anybody Well there's actually I've worked There's only one winner tomorrow It's Brendan McCullum Because he's a big mate of Morgan's Morgan has spoken how He's been heavily influenced by McCullum

When he took on the captaincy About four years ago during that World Cup when England were hopeless and the Kiwis got to the final. So if England win, it's thanks to Brendan McCollum, probably. And if New Zealand win, well, obviously, it's Brendan McCullough. It should be his trophy. There is an irony, though, isn't it, that England have got here playing the cricket that actually New Zealand showed them how to play four years ago.

And they came back with that lesson. They tossed out everything that they've been doing for the last 10, 15 years, threw it away. They knew it wasn't good enough. And they're actually playing the New Zealand way, perhaps even belished a little bit more. Yeah, well, it's partly selection, too, because they went to the last World Cup. I remember 2015, you listen,

if you listen to the transcripts of the England coaching unit, they were saying all the same things that they say, no, you want to play a positive game and do this, that and the other. And then you looked at their selections, however, and you had Gary Balance at three,

just a bottle it up, and stuff like that. Whereas they have picked aside and stuck with the side for the bulk of the last three years where all the players, all the batsmen, are natural stroke players that's the way they play and they've stuck with them and Morgan one of the great

triumphs of Morgan and indeed quietly Trevor Bayless is that they give these players their freedom to go and Morgan you know by the way he plays it encourages them to just explore the limits of what they can do out there with the bat and

it's a brave thing to do because sometimes you fall on your face and look ridiculous but they've got over that team wise I think we're expecting the same aren't we? Yeah, well, they've played the same team in the last three games when they played their best cricket. So there's a bit of green set there, too, I imagine they won't change it again. Quite even boundaries, too.

It's not an obvious... Well, Mowen is the one who's missing out, but I think they're confident in Wood now and Plunkett. Yeah. We'll hear from Mark Wood in a second. First, though, Jeremy, is New Zealand one of those teams that feels lifted by coming to Lords? I mean, it does happen. Visitors often come here and suddenly, oh, you know, it elevates them. They certainly are.

I don't think they're the only country that feel there. I remember as a young boy getting little books and there was a picture, you know, there's Lords, this is Trevor Bailey playing a forward defence at this place called Lords and I think all the New Zealand players would love to play here. We've played here, of course, a few times now

but nevertheless it'll be an exciting time for them all. An interesting thing about Lords is this slope and when England played Australia here they were at sea against the left armour Berendorf and Stark. Well, of course the Kiwis have got one of the best in the world, especially if there's a little bit of swing, if it's humid, that'll be absolutely great. Trent Bolt is a terrific redball cricketer. He's a great whiteball cricketer, but it does help

if he just gets that little bit of swing, then he can sort of cause a bit of mayhem. Right. Talking of bowling, let's hear then from the England fast bowler. Mark Wood, I spoke to him earlier in the Harris Gardens. How excited are you about this tomorrow? Very excited. As a kid, you go to the Lord of Crickler way in the back garden, your dad or the coach hits your catch-up and said, oh, catch-es it. just want to win the World Cup. So maybe that could be the feeling tomorrow. It could all come true, all those dreams of when you're a kid

and you pretend to sing the national anthem and things that. It's all going to happen tomorrow. So we're just going to take it in. So excited, a little bit nervous, which I think is normal. And recognising that that's normal, I think it's a good thing. And whichever team keeps that emotions best in check tomorrow. I'm sure I'll come out on top. You're asleep all right.

What are you going to do this evening? I'm going to chill out, trying not to think about the cricket. yesterday I watched the tennis I don't know if there's any other sport on the day probably the tennis again anything I can do to keep my mind away from the cricket and my wife's here she'll probably keep my mind occupied elsewhere

I went shopping yesterday so I was traips around the shops but anything to get away from the cricket you know I think when it is such a big game I think mentally it's good to switch off and then when you're here you're fully onto it so yeah probably just relaxing and trying to think of something else

I can't imagine how hard sleep if I'm honest I mean would it bother you if you can't sleep the night before? Or are you usually all right? I'm usually okay, to be honest. Before my test debut, I didn't sleep. So this is a game that's probably just as important as that, so it'll be interesting to see.

I know some lads tend to struggle up to sleep anyway, so hopefully we're not wandering the corridor early hours in the morning. Does it count for anything that you beat New Zealand? I mean, quite easily, actually, up at Chesterler Street? No, I think it gives me a confidence. I wouldn't say any more than that. because they're a class team Australia beat us in the group stages and then we

turn them over at Edgebaston so I wouldn't say it's any more than that it gives with confidence because we know we can play well against them we've always had tight series against New Zealand it's never been a whitewash or anything and that it's always been like a three two or something like that and in a way it's quite poetic that we play in New Zealand in the final after 2015 or 2014 15 the World Cup around that time the next series we played was one day's series was New Zealand. We tried to almost emulate Brandon McCollum's style of play. It's almost poetic that we play these in the final four years later with our style everyone wants to be like.

So it's quite nice in a way. Well, that's actually a really good point because it was. I mean, four years ago, Cracky, it was, you've never thought of England being the World Cup final as four years later. And it was from New Zealand that they've kind of learned how to do it and taking it on a stage too. Yeah. And look, I think Owen Morgan and Braden McCullum are really good friends aren't there so I think that side of things they've obviously had a little chat with each other and we've come out with this method

of playing and the values and things that we keep and we've tried to maintain that through four years and that's what's getting us to world number one and we've had a couple of blips during the tournament but you know under underestimate New Zealand at we're peril I think they're a team that has good togetherness

I think like our side and they're a good field inside and a team that can hurt you with matchwinness so we can't underestimate them and like I say it is a bit poetic and we've got to play the same brand of cricket that we do and try not to I guess worry what they're going to do too much but if we stick to our values and our brand of cricket I'm sure we'll come out on top now you're a late substitution for Jason Roy I thought I was going to be talking to him

rather than you would he it's a great pleasure but I got a betting I hit the ball yeah I was going to ask you about his batting anyway I might as well I mean to sit there what's he like I mean he's got this bit of a swing He's a bit of a surrey strut. But what's he like in the dressing room? I mean, he just demolished the Australians the other day, didn't he? Yeah, he's a nightmare to pull out in the nets to start with. A guy that really takes to the opposition, he sticks his chest out,

he has great body language on the field. Some people might think it's a bit of a swagger, but I quite like that. It gives her a bit of an edge. And he's a guy that you definitely want in your corner, you know, he's a one for the team all the time, puts a team first. He's always got so much energy in the dressing room. he's bouncing off the walls and things.

So a great character and one that when he doesn't play, you notice that he's not there. So it's great that he's in great form. It's great the way he played against Australia. Let's just hope this time you can go on and get a big one at the home of cricket and drive us home. Well, you're a character, Mark, as well. This horse, okay, I know it's kind of,

it's rewinding a bit, I get that, but I've never seen it. All this, Lord, Mark, what's so funny on this horse. will you do it tomorrow if England win will you just do it for me yeah if we win I'll do for you I'd put them in the stables for a little bit

I got every ground I go to I get asked where's the horse I thought I'd had that much of it I thought I'm going to have to park this horse for a little bit just put them in the stable so I'll tell you what just for you I guess if we win tomorrow I'll get the horse out on the field fight

and you can retire him after that yeah that's fine all right just for you that's a promise so that's Mark Wood he's promised to get his horse out there well let's hope That's fingers crossed that we'll see the horse out of retirement tomorrow. Well, he obviously thinks he's playing then anyway.

Well, he does. He's obviously at the side. Jeremy, those two, I mean, him and he mentioned Archer early. I mean, it's quite interesting. With this tournament, it was previewed, it's going to be all right wrist spin and all this sort of stuff. But actually, you look down the list of the most successful bowlers in this world. They're virtually all fast bowlers, aren't they? How much of an influence of those two, how do you think?

Wood and Archer for England? Oh, a great deal. That gives them 20 over. from one end effectively throughout the match, doesn't it? The high pace. Archer,

Archer ambling quick, gets in very close. And so as soon as he pitches, it's only got to do a cock hair at the other end and you're in with business whether it's an edge or an LBW or a bowl. And he gets bowlsing, he suddenly, there's no discernible difference

and there's five K's on top of it. And that's the ball that hit Kerry, for example. I mean, that was a nasty delivery. However, you know, and then you've got wood following, and that's quite smart really, I think, to have him at the 11th over through

to the next phase. He's a very different kind of bowler. He throws himself off his feet, doesn't he? And he bowls from an angle, and he's slippery, and he skiddy bounces because he's a shorter man. So there's a, and maybe he needs the extra man

out. You know, that gives him a bit of license to have a crack and to go hard. So I think it works well coming after Archer. So So they work nicely together. And I think both captains have managed their bowlers quite well. I mean, I suppose the Kiwis do that with Ferguson. We do it exactly the same.

They prefer Ferguson to come a little. It's first change. I mean, everybody can say, let's put Ferguson, he's quicker. He bowls the bounces as well. We all know that. Everyone says, you know, throw him in for a start. Let's get rid of these openers. But it's not quite so easy as that.

If you've got a man out of a big square leg, you might take the hook on. Well, exactly. Now, where do you put your men out? you know what the captains tend to do is they tend to go at 45 and try and cover fine leg and the hook shot at backward square and you end up doing neither so what you might even see tomorrow and Williamson's got a bit bolder with his field placings no third man all those sort of things you could have two behind square you could have fine for the catch if it gets a fine edge you could have one it he might try those things he will be aware that

England are dangerous and he'll be there working to try and make sure that he you know he can counter that. And that's another Kiwi thing over the years. They like to surprise you. I mean, obviously back in 1992, Deepak Patel was opening the bowler.

They might toss the ball to Sanda for one over. Chesdell is still. Almost nearly bald. Yeah. They like doing that sort of, you know, taking you by surprise.

Well, we've been talking about Brennan McCullum. Mark Wood was talking about Brennan McCullum. He was New Zealand's captain, of course, four years ago when they got to the final. I was also very close friends

as Owen Morgan. They were having a lovely animated conversation earlier on when I watched them. McCullum officiated at Morgan's wedding. He's been speaking to Henry Moran. Well, Brendan, you know this feeling. The eve of a World Cup final.

What emotions will the two teams be going through? I think there's probably an element of relief that they've made it this far. I think that's the first and foremost you've got to give yourself a chance. They've both done that. Both teams have played some exceptional cricket at times. Some not so good cricket at times as well,

but none of that really matters. Now it's at that moment where you just leave it all out on the field and it's going to be one winner and there's going to be one loser, but at least they've given themselves an opportunity. I think it's great for the world game that these two teams in particular who play the game and the right way have managed to make it through to this final. I'm really excited about the game. Four years ago, it was your side heading out to the MCG to take on Australia,

again probably as underdogs. Do you think it serves New Zealand well that position? Well, I think we've got no choice really. I think that's what's bestowed upon them from everywhere else around the world. But from their point of view, they'll be very confident if they play their best game, they're going to be hard to beat. I don't think they'll be overawed by the occasion. I think if we rewind four years ago, it's a very different side to what this side is.

I think they've added an element of consistency, which was probably lacking. Whilst we were flamboyant back then, there was still that ability for us to be a little uncertain in big occasions, whereas this side under the captain's C of King Williamson's added a real consistent base to their side, especially their batting. I don't think, I mean, they may not wail teams as such or well spectators with, with their approach but they get their job done they give themselves enough and with ball in hand they are very aggressive have you spoken to any of the new zealand boys well yeah i've been over here all the way through the the world cup i went home for a couple of days and then now come back over

i spoke to them after the games mainly you just you don't want to get in their way either it's very much cane side now and whilst there's still i guess a couple of elements of when we were playing in the side that I have captained, it's very much in Cain's control now. And so it's nice as a fan to just be able to support them and just lend a bit of an air when they need it. But they've got things under control. I look forward to catching up with them today. But it won't be anything other than just wishing them all the best.

How excited you as a fan? I'm really excited because it's bizarre. I think with the way that this campaign has gone, you know, for a while there, New Zealand looked like they wouldn't make it. and then for them to have been given that lifeline and then for them to have played as well as what they did in that semi-final, I think there was a bit of criticism about how they batted.

To me, I looked at that, and it's completely opposite to how I used to like to play, but I really adored the way they went about it because for me it was like wet weather rugby, they just kept it tight and they kept it in the forwards, and they just did what they needed to to get a score on the board, knowing that they had the weaponry with their bowling attack to be able to get the job done. So I was really enthused by that. I know tomorrow I'm great friends with Morgs,

as well and obviously my own country in the final so it's just a great occasion i'm really looking forward to it and it's going to be nice and relaxed and and hopefully we see a great game and it's a game which befits both sides not just their skills but also the way they are as people and hopefully you know we see a ripping game at the end of it just finally what would it mean to new zealand as a country were they to get over the line yes well i mean i'm sort of thinking that on the plane on the way over really it's i know the impact that our campaign had four years ago on our country and that'll be seen in the years to come from the kids who were inspired by that on, well, our performance on our back doorstep. On this occasion away from home,

you know, if we were to go one further step and actually claim the trophy, then, you know, I think it would just do so much for our country, even though our country loves cricket, rugby's always going to be our number one sport. We'll never compete with that. But if we can each closer to it, then that's going to be, you know, that's some win. But it would be an amazing achievement. for a country of our resource to be able to achieve something like that would never use it as an excuse but if you sit back objectively and look at it it's actually quite remarkable how well New Zealand do do and put the icing on the cake with a World Cup victory would be something special so that's Brendan McCullum

an observer these days a commentator talking to Henry Moran and now that he's gone well there's no doubt who New Zealand's danger man is it's the Captain Kane Williamson who scored 548 runs so far in this tournament England only got him out in the group stage thanks to a lucky runout at the non-strikers end off Mark Wood's fingertips. So what will England's plans be for him tomorrow? Here's their former coach, Paul Farbrace. He isn't going to take you down as soon as he comes to the crease. That's not his plan.

He's not someone who's going to launch the ball back over your head as soon as he walks to the crease. He's someone that likes to get in, likes to get the pace of the wicket. He'll knock the ball wider mid on. He knocks the ball into the offside. He gets his singles. He works the pace out. He's a very, very intelligent batsman.

So early on, I think the key with him, is to try and drag him across his stump. So if you can bowl sort of fourth-fist stump line, drag him across his stumps a little bit, and then run one back in to hit the stumps. I think you've got a chance of LBW against him. I think that's a plan that quite a few teams have used against him. He knows that because he can see from the way that the fields are set,

he can see that the way that teams set up to bowl against him. Once he's in, I think he's probably up there as one of the most dangerous players in world cricket to bowl out when they're in. You know, again, he isn't someone that you naturally think of as being a very destructive player. You know, you think of the gales of this world who launched the ball over the boundary.

Kane's just as dangerous of hitting fours and sixes, but he's a lot more subtle in the way that he does. He plays strong cricket shots. He hits all around the ground. You know, he'll sweep you, he'll hit over extra cover. You know, he thinks nothing of hitting the ball wherever the gaps are. He's very shrewd.

And I think he's probably one of the hardest. When he's in and scoring, he's very, very hard to bowl against. And I'm not sure that too many teams. have found a plan that works to control him when he's in. You know, we've seen the New Zealand team want to take wickets all the way through. They've been a very aggressive. England will be exactly the same. Keep trying to take wickets, keep trying to bowl balls in the right area,

but make sure that when players do get in, you either stop their rhythm and keep them off strike or you make sure that you're very, very disciplined in the lines and the lengths you bowl as to where they can actually score their runs. Well, that's Paul Farbrace And, well, he's got some ideas on how England Belt a cane Williamson Tomorrow, he's one of those bats

And he says to soak up all the pressure It gets on, gets on with a job He said earlier, he's not going to tell you apart But he was asked, Morgan was asked Well, what do you think the weaknesses of Williamson are We've done backup very well Because that's the only time he's been out for under 40 Was when a straight drive just clipped wood's fingers

I mean, he is I think what he's got to do with Williamson ideally, is to get him out of that comfort zone by having so many runs on the board that he has to bat in a slightly different way. He just is the ballast in that side and he just hopes that someone will stay with him. He plays kind of old-fashioned,

not exactly test match cricket, but he minimises the risk and is just determined to stay in in the hope that some of the others will bat around him. And he's done that absolutely brilliantly. That's a really interesting point though. So in a way, Jeremy, Victor was suggesting

was that New Zealand's predicaments when Williamson has been batting has enabled him to play his way and hasn't had to play take a few chances. I think they've been boldly cautious if I could put it that I thought they've been cautiously bold

Well, there you are. So yeah, he's been allowed to play that way there's no doubt about that because of the rest of the team are so out of Nick really for most of the tournament you sense some other components are starting to just come back actually I watched Latham in the last couple of games

and he looks better and he hasn't scored a run for New Zealand so far and Taylor of course the 60-oddy got up at Old Trafford actually it was a little masterpiece in the end wasn't it getting New Zealand through so you know there are two three four players we just need Gaptal to join the list

just for just once Martin come on just once and if he can do that and survive a little bit and it's hard you know it's not going to be easy for him against archer and wokes but if he can somehow manage that maybe we get a few more runs there let's hear from kane williamson kane after the high of beating india and the excitement around that easy to reset for this final for the team um yeah i mean it was a fantastic game and a really tough fought match really a lot of scrap that went into it um which is important to us as a team so um yeah i think it

was also a very humbling experience as well because you know on those surfaces you do need to try and put sides under pressure for a long period of time and it wasn't a perfect performance. So, you know, we've moved on from that. We've had a few days off, which is great. And the guys are looking forward to the next challenge,

which is our next match. The same mental focus, you've got a fairly simple way of going about things, haven't you try and keep things pretty even? Yeah, well, that's the idea. Naturally, you come down to the business end of tournaments and there's a few other bits and pieces that can surround the matches but at the end of the day it's important

we just focus on the cricket that we want to play and hang ahead on those performances. They're celebrating in England already, the underdogs once more. Yep, that's cool, you know. I mean, you come to a final knockout match and to be honest, pretty much all the matches throughout the tournament have been a little bit of that nature and, you know, England rightly deserved to,

go in favourites. They've been perhaps the formed team of the tournament approximately but it comes down to one match and I've said on a number of occasions that anybody can beat anybody on their day. What will winning this game tomorrow and the World Cup mean to you and the team? Oh, you know

it's obviously a really special occasion and the pinnacle I suppose of the sport where all the best teams come together every four years and try and end up in a final like we are here now

and ultimately the opportunity to win it and I guess those sorts of thoughts are perhaps for after the match when hopefully you've worked really hard as a unit and put out a strong performance and hopefully the result then takes care of itself but a lot of hard work between now and potentially those thoughts.

Massive support here, you know there's massive support at home too don't you? Yeah, I have heard that you know the country are supporting and right behind it, which is fantastic to hear. It's a little bit different, perhaps, to the last World Cup where the support was on your doorstep and it was much more visible,

whereas here, obviously, the other side of the world, it's often you feel like you're playing away games rather than home games like last time, but no doubt that the country are looking forward to match tomorrow. Good luck. Cheers, thank you. Well, that's King Williamson, talking to Brown Waddle, who'll be joining us on the commentary,

Tomorrow, a bit of New Zealand emphasis then, Jeremy, how do they compare to the side of four years ago, do you think? They got through to the final. They were a very popular team, weren't they? But they got rather roughed up by the Aussies in Melbourne, didn't they? All the niceties had gone. Yeah, that's perhaps where the occasion, I thought, just got a wee bit. It was the only game they played, obviously, in Australia throughout their sort of tournament. Yeah, and losing McCullerman the first over or so.

just didn't help either the talisman out there and gone so yeah things didn't go particularly well over there but I think they'll be better for it they'll be calmer because of that I think they'll have enough people around the team to say no come on just it's

another game fellas we know it's an important one but come on do just do your job and I think that's that will be the all pervasive feeling in that Kiwi she yeah I think it's probably even though they lost it's an advantage to have been there and learned from the mistakes And it is different because it's a huge contrast in the last World Cup

where they were brilliant in New Zealand and then suddenly they're into alien territory completely whereas here like everyone else they've been trekking around the countryside playing in all sorts of different venues away from home so they don't have to make a major adjustment so I don't think there's a problem there they just need one other batsman to come to the Fall and Cup Tour be the one they want.

That rumbling noise was the hover cover being pulled more or less into position the forecast is great for tomorrow so hopefully they won't need that. Throughout this World Cup podcast we brought you Jimmy Anderson's recollections from the four World Cups that he played in. We've saved this one till today, England's last World Cup in 2015, that started

with England's captain, Alistair Cook, being replaced by Owen Morgan and ending in an ignominious group stage exit. And Jimmy's been speaking to Simon Mann. 2015 World Cup, I mean, that was a remarkable World Cup in a way for what happened before it,

let alone what happened during it because Alistair Cook was sacked as captain after the tour of Sri Lanka which preceded it did you sense that that was going to happen or was about to happen or could happen? Not really no it was

I think it came as a shock to most people most players as well and yeah not ideal preparation really because I think it's probably the exact opposite of what England have got at the moment they're going into a World Cup that it's got

such a settled team the captain's been in charge for a while they know exactly what each other's role is in the team and that's where you want to be going into a big tournament and that was the exact opposite of that 2015 World Cup. We didn't know our

best 11, we didn't know who was going to open the bat and who was batting three we didn't know who our best bowling attack was and that is just not where you want to be going into a huge tournament like the World Cup. So on the morning say that match against Australia the opening game of the World Cup

would there have been those doubts in your mind that you've expressed there or do you sort of put that out of your mind and you know it's England Australia it's the World Cup and you know here we go well yeah once the game comes around you've got like the sole focus was on that but I'm sure

there would have been players you know the night before but they're not sure whether they're playing or you know guys that haven't played a huge amount of cricket in the position they were playing. So that's not ideal. That is, even if it's two or three or four players

that are unsure of what they're meant to be doing, then it's just going to have a detrimental effect on the side. Next game, New Zealand in Wellington. I mean, if Australia was bad, was that one of your worst days on a cricket field, New Zealand in Wellington? Yeah, well, I mean, they made us look completely average that day. I think we started pretty well

I think we got 50 off the power play but lost Mowing just on 10 overs and from then on it was south he just blew us away got the ball to swing and we didn't have any answers for it and then they made very easy work of knocking the runs off

so what was them feeling after that match so you've lost Australia, lost to New Zealand you've been well beaten in both games did it feel as if the World Cup was I mean, do you sort of feel swamped by the World Cup in a way? You know, we're just not competing here. It was just a really strange situation because you've got a fairly new captain

who's trying to put his stamp on the team but doing it in a global event. You know, you should have been doing that months in advance, months, even years in advance. Like, you know, we see the team now. It's so settled and so it is Owen Morgan's team and they are playing the sort of cricket that he wants them to play.

And then we didn't know what sort of team we were. We didn't know how, you know, we had plans for our batting. You know, quite a structured sort of plan for the batting and how we wanted to set that up. And it just didn't work for us, really. And, you know, it was just a complete disappointment. And just not a great time to be in that side, yeah. Did, I mean, was the confidence really low as you progressed during the tournament?

He beat Scotland and then you played Sri Lanka and you actually got a decent score on the board but then they chased them down quite comfortably. Yeah, well I just think that the confidence was definitely low and you could see that the win against Scotland wasn't convincing. I think we got

270 or something on a good wicket we should have been getting 300 plus and now I dread to think what this team would get on that day but yeah we were just I thought we were just a bit careful We went into our shelves a bit

and maybe people were just looking after their own games a little bit trying to get themselves into form rather than thinking about the bigger picture and the team and how we're going to get better as a team. You had one last chance in that group stage so Bangladesh in Adelaide

what we are feeling as a team or personally going into that game. It's an opportunity to, we knew it was a big opportunity we didn't think it's just Bangladesh we were very conscious of of making sure we didn't take them for granted and I think we bowled okay

I think we kept them to a decent total I think we're in a good position as well chasing them down and then we just kept losing wickets all of a sudden and ended up I know I was the last man out I can't remember how many we needed but we should have knocked them off

but just again maybe lack of confidence beat us and what was that feeling like afterwards very dejected and disappointed and a little bit embarrassed as well there's not a lot more you can say about it really we were just not good enough for that at that point as a team

and it's hugely disappointing was there a feeling when you were talking among yourselves that things had to change and while you're actually playing the World Cup and subsequently things have changed enormously but were those the conversations that were being had during the competition

that subsequently led to what looked like to be a huge sea change after it I felt like we're just constantly paying catch-up We're playing catch-up that whole tournament. So Owen Morgan's come in as captain. We had a group of four or five of us, like, you know, senior players trying to figure out what's the best way forward for the team, you know, with Owen leading that and trying to put his own stamp on things as well.

And we're just playing catch-up, you know, you can only do certain things with the squad you've got. And it just felt like everyone, every other team in the world, that World Cup was way ahead of us in terms of, of the cricket they were playing and, you know, they were way ahead of us and we were constantly playing catch-up. That's James

Anderson with Simon Mann. Victor, we heard Jimmy saying there that England were constantly playing catch-up in that last World Cup. It seems that since then the rest of the world's trying to catch up with England. It's been a huge change. Aaron Finch saying that they were setting the new benchmark the other day. Well, when they play well, I mean, they are irresistible.

They play high-risk cricket with the bat, but if it comes off, it's devastating. And actually with the ball, they have got more disciplined and better. And we talked about Archer, but it's been amazing that he has been so consistent. Forget the pace, which seems to come from nowhere, unlike Wood. But he just gives no one any room. He doesn't bowl with width early in the innings.

So his accuracy has been such a bonus. And he's suddenly, from nowhere, he is inked in new ball alongside Wokes, who's the other one who's got much, much better as the tournament's. got on. So those two have become critical and there was a gap between those two and the others actually when we played Australia. That must be the best prepared team that England have had for a World Cup, don't you think?

Well, it's the most settled team. I mean, England have mind you, the competition over the last 27 years has been appalling. I mean, they had a good tournament way back in 1992 and you and I have been around for the rest of it, which is 27 years, sadly. And

just about every one of those tournaments has been catastrophic. They haven't got anywhere near a semi-final. T20 final, that one, of course, but as far as 50 overs is concerned. You're absolutely right. Okay, Victor, thank you. Now, as you know, we're trying to find a listener to this podcast from every country in the world. There are 193 UN member states.

We're down to single figures. So Jeremy and I are going to go through the ones that remain here. Jeremy, let's have a look. Why don't you start with Lucy Carty there? I'm currently on a family holiday on the Comoros and although I haven't seen very much cricket myself my dad and brother were avid followers and have been listening to your podcast around the pool

the last few days. Excellent, thank you Lucy. Nigel Edwards, it seems to half my family back home have contacted me about that TMS podcast. They all wanted me to listen as I'm currently lagoon diving on the bikini atoll I don't know where that is. So I can confirm that I have indeed listened here.

to the story of England's progression to the World Cup final, you can tick off off the Marshall Islands. There we go. Do you know where they are, Jeremy? I don't. Is that the Marshall Brothers for New Zealand? Perhaps they have their own islands. I don't know.

Now I'm after, am I speaking? Yes. On Lynn's behalf. You are. Sorry to have not contacted you earlier. But having heard you, you'd got to South Sudan. I assumed you'd already ticked off Sudan. However, I've been listening from Cartoon.

Right, there we go. That counts too. Thank you. Robert Hughes, as in France. You must have had France, surely. You've had a couple of people listening to the podcast in the demilitarised zone between North and South Korea. You said it doesn't count as North Korea.

However, according to Encyclopedia Britannica, the DMZ incorporates territory from both North and South Korea. So maybe you should be able to take off North Korea. Well, that's true, but we're not bending the rules in any way. We need some on the other side of the border over the next 24 hours, or it won't count. I think we're struggling with North Korea. So it leaves us with five countries to tick off over the next 24 hours.

Trad, Eritrea, Niger, Somalia, and our old friend North Korea. So four in Africa, one in Asia. And is there anyone who can help? Well, you can email TMS at BBC.com. UK and put podcast in the title. We had reports of people hearing soul limbo in various different places after the semi-final win. I'm sure it'll get played at a few parties of weddings and so on tonight. If you hear it, send us a recording again to the same.

email address, tms at bbc.co.uk. You can Twitter at BBC tms. Finally, if you're getting the tube to the final tomorrow, make sure you listen out for a voice you might recognize. Hello everyone, Agers here. Welcome to St John's Wood, the Gateway to Lords. Please mind the gap between the train and the platform. Hello, everyone, Aggies. Here, welcome to St John's Wood, the Gateway to Lords. Please mind the gap between the train of the platform. There we are. That's a lot, a lot of fun. I must have it. I did the wrong button once Jeremy and it all went out over the station prematurely

but do you, are you an underground man? Do you find yourself down there? Are you coming to the... Subterranean. Are you coming tomorrow on the underground? No, I'll be walking from just north. Oh, yes. Well, I'm going to go down there, doesn't it? Have a listen. It's a bit of fun. Anyway, I always get lost

on the underground. Jeremy, Victor, thank you. If we're in the UK, BBC Radio 5 lives, your place for coverage of Sunday's final. From 7 o'clock, Ellen Arroyd will be live from Lords with weekend breakfast to begin the build-up at 9 o'clock. It's a live tail-enders from the ground with Greg James, Jimmy Anderson and Felix White.

Then from 10 to 10, full commentary on 5 Live, as well as Radio 4 Longwave and via the BBC Sport website on the app where you can watch highlights as the game goes on. The TMS podcast at the Cricket World Cup. Download and subscribe via the BBC Sounds app for a new episode every day.