Test Match Special - Day 1: A good start for Pakistan

Episode Date: August 5, 2020

Jonathan Agnew presents from Old Trafford where England endured a frustrating first day in the 1st Test against Pakistan. Rain interruptions and some excellent batting from Babar Azam allowed the tourists to finish the day on 139-2. Azhar Mahmood tells Aggers why he thinks it's been a good day for Pakistan while Michael Vaughan asks whether Azam could have a similar impact on this series as Steve Smith did in the 2019 Ashes. Dan Norcross gets reaction from England head coach Chris Silverwood and Pakistan opener Shan Masood and, with a new biography about the late Bob Willis being released this week, Aggers speaks to his widow Lauren and brother David about Headingley 81, Bob's style of punditry and his love of Bob Dylan.

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Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast, looking back on a shortened opening day of the England-Pakistan test series, but one with plenty of talking points nonetheless. To come, we'll hear from Michael Vaughan and Azamamamud and the England coach Chris Silverwood and the Pakistan batsman Sean Massoud and we'll be sharing memories of the much-missed Bob Willis.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So close a play on the first day, the first test between England and Pakistan at Emirates, Old Trafford. Truncated day again, only 49 overs were possible, a bit of rain, some bad light, and unfortunately just those 49 overs were able to be bold before the umpired side that they'd had enough for the day. In that time, Pakistan, who won the toss and started to bat first, including two leg spinners in their team, by the way, reached 139 for two from those 49 overs. They lost Abid Ali, the opener, who was bowled by.

Archer for 16, a ball that came back at him, went through the gate. That was 36 for 1. Azar Ali, the captain, didn't last long. He got a duck, in fact. LBW to Wokes, he reviewed it because he knew that the ball had hit the bat, but a very good decision by the umpire, who correctly adjudged that the ball actually hit the pad before the bat. And so Azar was out with the score on 43 for 2.

We've seen a delightful learnings of 69, not out from Babarazam, who's at 11-4s in that. Sean Massoud, the other opened up, well, he'd given a couple of chance, Most notice to be a stumping chance of Bess, who has found some spin, some early spin. And this is a drier pitch, I think it's fair to say, than the first two test matches that we've seen here. But there was that stumping chance. The ball hit buttler up on the shoulder, to be fair to him. But he is 46 not out at the end of this first day.

Bowling-wise, Anderson 8-overs for 32. Stuart brought 11 overs for 24. Wokes and Archer the wicket-takers. Wokes won for 14. Archer won for 23. Dominic Bess, unlucky. No wicket for 30 from 9. and Joe Root bowl three overs as he tried valiantly but unsuccessfully in the end

to keep England in the field to keep play going. England, I should have mentioned, as a last comment before handing over to Michael Vaughan and Azar Mahmoud is that they are unchanged from the team that beat the West Indies here last week. Stoke's ruled unable to bowl maybe, we shall see, but certainly unlikely to bowl in this match. So England unchanged. Let's start with Michael Vaughn, shall we? Lots of funny things today, not least the way that the play's ended.

It's all a bit unsatisfactory, isn't it? The lights on burning off all sorts of electricity. It's almost going to the point. There's no point having them on, because the umpires are just decided to go off a bad light anyway. Yeah, and there's no point in us talking about it, I guess, because we've spoken about it for pretty much all summer for the last few years at Test Mats cricket.

It seems to me that the conditions have to be perfect or you don't play. I reckon we've missed probably an hour and 15. minutes more of cricket. We had obviously a shower in the afternoon. You can't play in the rain. They didn't get out there quick enough after the rain delay. I just can't get my head around the fact

that TV companies around the globe are paying a huge amount of money. And at the minute there's no crowds around the ground and this is the only test match that's going on which will be watched by millions around the whole globe. Yet we haven't had cricket for the last whatever hour and a half.

It's frustrating because we've seen some real quality cricket We end up on a sour note because once again we're kind of looking at the ground staff doing their work, which they do so well. And we feel that cricket could still be being player. When you think there was two off-spiners bowling and we went off a bad light. And Pakistan are 139 for two with two players, one near 50 and one outstanding player, Barbara Azam, on 69. It just doesn't make sense. I keep saying it when is test match cricket going to learn.

but in Babara Azam we've already seen in 69 runs and 100 balls at his face a player of outstanding quality and I look at him in particular and I looked at the West Indies series I never ever thought they had enough runs in them to beat the England's even though they won that first test match

I never ever felt like they could get enough runs particularly here in Manchester to put pressure on the England side in Baburazam there's a player that you could say could do quite easily what Steve Smith did last summer and if he has the series that we know he could have England could be in serious trouble and for whatever reason I guess today England have not looked quite right

they've not quite looked as on it as we saw against the West whether it's because they've come up against more quality whether we've gone on a pitch that's slightly slower and not doing as much whether it's the fact that the bowling first and they've not trying to read the conditions as well as they do when they bowl second but I think we are in for a classic series

because Pakistan are a better team than we saw just a week or so ago, the West Indies. We'll pick up those points in a minute. Asimamamud is also here. Are you frustrated about it? I mean, you play so much county cricket as well as a whole question of light and weather in England. I know there's not a lot you can do about it, but do you share the frustration that you feel there might have been more play today?

Yeah, definitely. When the two spinners were on and the umpire offered the lights, you know, and they said spinner can bowl. There's no point having to come out on this line. bites, you know. It wasn't dangerous. When Archer was bowling, yes, it was dangerous because he's bowling 90 miles an hour and bowling a bouncer. It might be dangerous for the batsman to can't see the ball because it's red ball. We are using red ball. But when the spinner is on, it's highly frustrating, as Michael said, you know, it's not good for the game.

It's interesting. We're just making the point on TMS earlier. Whether the fact there isn't a crowd here, there isn't an angry mob shouting, get on with it. And the umpires will have regulations and protocols and everything else set by ICC but I just wonder if that live presence of 20,000 angry people that there isn't play doesn't have something to do with it as well. Yeah, no question, I guess I think it would have made a difference

but that for me makes the decision even worse because why should it take 20,000 in the crowd, why should it take a rowdy, temporary stand to our left singing a few songs, probably making a beer snake or two to make cricket get back on? Test cricket has to have the answer. you know whether it's to change the color of the ball to pink so you can see it more so whether it's just to change the the protocol in terms of you just get on and play

clearly if it's deemed dangerous you have to be very careful but throughout this you know summer of cricket and it's been a great effort to get the game on in the times that we're in to think that cricket has done so much to get the game on it keeps walking off it just does not make any sense it almost adds to the frustration doesn't it? Spent an absolute fortune getting these teams over there they've given up so much and you get a chance to play and you don't play. It's just absolutely nonsense. It does seem strange.

The pink ball's an interesting one because you'd have to have a huge range of pink balls are matching more or less the wear of the one that you're using in the match that you started with, wouldn't you? Don't you think, Aggers, we're getting to the stage because this is happening too often now. Isn't it right just to play with a pink ball?

All the way through? Just play with a pink ball. I go and watch a lot of junior cricket, a lot of adult cricket on an evening, and they play with a pink ball, And they're playing, I know it's not test cricket, of course it's not. But they play at 9 o'clock, and you can see because it's a pink ball. Yes.

You know, surely... Might extend a few bowling crews. I think Azers's getting his bowling boots back on. But test cricket haggers has to have the answer. Rather than seeing what we're seeing here, which the game isn't being played, the product that we love is not being there. It's not there for us to see because, you know, it's just this kind of ritual with test match cricket,

that it's almost that the conditions has to be perfect for the game to be carried on. you're telling me now that one day cricket wouldn't be played now course it would be T20 course it would be test cricket has to get into the new world of what we're about is entertainment the game has to get on whenever and wherever possible and they should have played a lot more today can't argue with that to be honest I reckon if I were a Pakistan supporter I might be quite happy with situation as a because especially with the ball and Donbess is not a big spinner of the ball naturally an off spinner but he's already found some bounce as well Yeah, definitely. As a Pakistani point of view, Shadab Khan and Yassir Shah must be licking their fingers right now

because they saw some turn with a finger spinner, first day of the test match, and they have to bowl the fourth innings. So looking at the scorecard, I thought Barbara Azam showed his class today and he was brilliant. We know how good a player he is and he against the quality lineup. And I must give credit to Sean Musud. He got... couple of chances but you know he's he's hanging there his role is to play a long period of time and the other player can come and play with him I thought in England point of view I thought up front they were slightly short in my opinion if I was a bowling coach yes for them I would saying to my ballers you know pitch a ball up I don't mind if you go for a few runs but

you got three slips and a gully hang there for that booming drive and you can get people out in the slips. I must admit, I'd agree with that. It's hard to say to someone like Jimmy Anderson at all, in his 600 wickets. It might have been a couple of feet short there, Jimmy, but especially to Sean Massoud, who's got such a

strong record against anyway, who's really playing from the crease early on, wasn't he? You felt he could have just got it another couple of feet? Don't you think it's been a slight problem for the England test team? If you look at when they've had struggles, it's when they've been asked the ball first or bat second, it's generally the batting

collapses that cost them. But I also think the bowlers haven't been when they've bowled first as quick to react to the right lengths. They're always very good when they bat first and they concede the conditions by being in the dressing and then they go out to bowl and generally when they bat first in them they're a very

very difficult team to beat because they like getting runs on the board and then the ballers know exactly the conditions that they're going to be on in it and you know with Jimmy and Stuart Broad they can pretty much land it on a one-pence piece whenever they wish and I think they were a yard too short

I always think in English conditions if you're getting driven down the ground straight early it's not a bad thing I didn't see enough balls go down towards the V mid on and mid off early a lot of the balls going square of the wicket I don't think it was an easy pitch to find

length because it was almost sitting in a little bit of tennis ball it was just springing off a length so I don't think it was easy to find the length but I do think there's a little bit of a common pattern that when England are asked a ball first on bat second there seems to be this common trend in the way that they play test match cricket is they don't tend to always find the right

lengths on day one and they don't always, we'll wait and see in this test match bat as well as they do when they bat first so it's going to be a real test for them this week. Yeah. As you see, the last test match we played at lots, you know, the Pakistani bowlers' length were much fuller than the

England bowler, so you know, Jimmy Anderson and Broad got 1100 wicket between them, you know, they know each and everything. But I think as a bowler you want to pitch the ball up with especially first day of the test match and new pitch new batsman it's very difficult for the batsman to adjust a length early on if you're asking question like we saw every time they pitch the ball up we see something happening and every time short of a length because it's pitch is drier and on the slower side you can't see any hardly movement

lateral movement from the pitch you always know aggers that it's not a great day for the team when the coach gets wheeled out to the press. I've just seen Chris Silverwood on the screens. He's doing the presser tonight. He is. It's never a great sign. It's not. I've said more preferable than the bowling coach being wheeled out.

But I think he's obviously in a position to talk about that. And I think he'll be asked some questions at some stage. If we get to him on time during the course of this podcast, this review that we're doing now, because play has been called off for the day. As 139 for two, only 49 overs were possible. So it's disappointing. But the forecast for the rest of the week is. good and so they'll make up this lost time. I'll add a bit of play to each day up to that point

and then hopefully we'll have a result at the end won't have lost too much play. So we're chatting through with Michael Vaughan and Azamamamud. I'm just looking down to see because I think Chris Silverwood will be going along the lines as it were to go down to our eager reporter down there shortly. I think Dan Norcross has got the long straw. It's always nice to do his close of play interview so he's down there today. Someone who will be relieved, I think, is Joffre Archer. It's not been a happy hunting ground, Old Trafford for Archer. He had a poor Ashes test

here last year. But I mean, there was a lovely ball, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. Yeah, and that's the length. I mean, you're not asking Joffar Archer at his height and his pace to float it up for half followers. He is the kind of bowl that, you know, you kind of ask him to hit length as hard as he can, and he's probably going to be bouncing more off than not over the stunts. But that was a perfect. Just knit back, off the pad.

I thought he looked great in that first. a spell, you know, and then he came out after lunch, and all the England side, just looked, I don't know, they just looked a bit flat, Don Best didn't get it right, the tactics were a bit strange, and Joffre came on, bowled a couple of short ones got put away, and after the break, when they

obviously got the light and they had to bowl to turn to the spinners, you know, you felt that there was two balls that I would look at from an English perspective to Babra-Zam, that you would look and think, wait, maybe that's the way to target him. He got a couple of steep ones into the armpit, and he flapped at it with a pull shot, and he got a bit lucky because it went in

the air, about halfway down to fine leg. And I'd look at that as a bowling coach perspective from the England team. Maybe just that there's not much of a chink in his armour, he's a quality player, but maybe there's two times today that he got caught on the back foot just into the armpits, and that's maybe somewhere that they could target him with. Pitching to see all the fast bowlers on display, weren't it? And it's funny how also there are fast bowlers who feel it's a real competition amongst themselves. And of course, we're going to see Nassim and Shane Shah-Fridi.

later on. But Archer was interesting. He did bowl quite within himself, I thought. Chris Silverwood is approaching Dan Norcross. Let's see what the England coach has to say. Thank you, Agers. Chris, a tricky day today. Great first session. Second session, perhaps not quite so good. Can you pinpoint what didn't go quite so right after lunch? Well, we weren't on the money. I mean, if you saw how we came out of that first session, I thought we bowed beautifully. Credit to Pakistan, I thought they played very well as well. so and when we came out afterwards we bowed too many bad balls if I'm brutally honest

you know I mean we've addressed it in the dressing room the guys have been very honest about it but we just weren't where we need to be and obviously they got away for a while there was such a stark contrast so wasn't it because Joffra Archer and Chris Wokes in that second hour I guess at the first session really put England on top didn't they they did like I said I thought the ball beautifully I thought I mean they all came out they controlled the rate of the game they were on top they were asking questions we'll be beating the bat and making life particularly difficult really for a Pakistani batsman but you know what we're not always going to get at his own way so the challenge I have from

back in the dressing room is we're going to have days like that we're going to either be through the fact that we don't bowl particularly well or the opposition play very well the challenge is how we recognise its situation and how do we pull it back you know when someone has to put their hands up and says right I'm pulling the situation back and it's all part and parcel of learning and grooving as a team really I mean hard lines for Don best because although Barbara Azam did get after him a little bit after lunch. He also created two very good chances today, both from Sean Massoud,

and that's got to hurt a little bit as well, doesn't it? Well, it depends how many runs he gets. But no, he does. You know what I mean? Obviously, I mean, no one means to miss a chance, and obviously we'll try and be on the ball every ball. But these things happen, it's test cricket. You know what I mean, it's here, it tests us.

So tomorrow will come out and we'll try and create more chances again. The good thing is that, you know, again tonight, in this final sort of short session that we had best he looks dangerous and he'll keep creating chances for us the forecast is for it to get warmer and therefore possibly drier what was the feeling from the players

about the pitch? Was it turning and was it dry? It's drier than the two previous test wickets we've played on here probably a couple of days further down the line on what the others were you know what I mean it is fairly dry and it'll be interesting to see where it goes

with a little bit of sun on it as if we do ever get sun in Manchester but if it does It's going to be interested to see where it goes. Well, the forecast is better, so fingers crossed on that. Just a totally different question. Yesterday, of course, England's one-day team were playing down at the Aegeas Bowl. What's that like as the coach being sort of here, obviously glued to what's happening there,

but really not being able to do anything about that? Well, you've got to trust, haven't you really? I mean, but one thing that I did say with Collie is, listen, you're in charge. And I mean that you're in charge. I'm not going to sort of weigh in and tell you what to do, otherwise, I mean, basically you're just doing a girass. So I want him to have an experience where he's run the team, I mean, alongside Morgie and the other guys down there.

And, you know what I mean, everything had gone really well until yesterday. And, I mean, first of all, I said well done to the Irish boys. I thought, you know, I mean, I did watch a run chase. I thought it was two very good innings in there. And I think, you know, I mean, our younger bowlers have played in that game will take a lot from it because ultimately at times you learn more when you lose and you do when you win. So hopefully there's some good lessons come from that. I mean, credit to them.

and still a series win under Colley's belt. Lastly, in that last session when you came out, the sun had been shining, but there had been a damp outfield and came out and Archer bowed those five balls and then bad light intruded. Was there a temptation to come off the field? Obviously, Joe could have kept bowling broad or Anderson or any of the other quicker bowlers,

but opted to go with spin. What was the thinking there? Take the positive option. I mean, if we're out there, we'll try and get wickets. and as we saw best created chances so to me that's where it's about we knew that obviously we wanted Joffrey hit them hard first up

if the light became an issue we had to have a plan B plan B was you go to your spin and we try and make something happen obviously we'd have gone into tomorrow with having three down it's better than two down so if you're out there you may as well have a go well indeed you did generate that chance

towards the end there Chris thanks ever so much best of luck for tomorrow thank you cheers thanks Chris Silverwood with Dan Norcross some interesting responses there he's certainly pretty straight, isn't he, Michael? There's no flannel with Chris Silverwood. No, and that's why he's been successful as a coach. I think you speak to the players that played under him at Essex.

You know where you are with Chris. He's a great communicator. I think he also recognises when players are not quite on it and they'll let you know that. But if you give everything and you have a bad day by giving everything, I think he also understands that that happens. It's the game of cricket. But I don't know, I spotted a few things early,

crates of Pakistan with the way that they ran between the wickets. I thought they tipped and run really nicely. That puts you under pressure as a fielding team. There was just a few little things that you kind of noticed that just didn't look quite that Ingram were right on it. And whether that's first day bowling, whether

it's the break they've had, only they can answer that. But you'd expect them to come back tomorrow and put in a better shift. They'll have to. That's the way the test matches at the minute. If Pakistan back tomorrow and they back the whole day, which They have a great chance to do so.

There's 31 over until that second new ball, so it's not going to be easy for England to suddenly get four or five quick ones in the morning. Yeah, if Pakistan get beyond that 300, 350, with the pitch already showing signs of spin, it's going to be a tough week for the England team. Just a quick one. As of you watching on, Chris Wokes is on it, isn't he?

I mean, he always sort of slips under the radar a bit, Chris Wokes. We talk about bowlers and so on, but he looks at the top of his game at the moment. He was brilliant. I think Archer and Vox at that time before lunch, they were absolutely spot on. The length was right. They were pitching the ball up and they were creating doubts in batsmen minds. I thought Archer at that time, you know, bowling a couple of short deliveries to Abid Ali and then pitch the ball up. I think there was well thought of him bowling at that time.

Bound to be talk about that butler miss, I guess. I mean, hit him on the shoulder. it gives an indication of how quickly it went and how much it bounced and that has a really difficult one to take but slow motion is horrible and it was a definite chance the bats was way out, way out.

Yeah, well you add into the drop catch as well you know, Donbess could have had Sean Mitzoud and really should have had him out twice I would say it's not a great day for him to be doing that on a slow news day. Barbara Zam will get a lot of column inches but Butler's position

in the side has been under the doubts, I mean, the majority of it has been about his batting, not getting enough runs. He played very nicely in that third test here against the West Indies, so you would say that he kind of quieting the doubt is about his batting, but you've got to go back to that first

test against the West Indies in Southampton, where he dropped that catch leg side to Jermaine Blackwood. Germain went and got the runs to win the game, so he could argue that if that had been taken, England would have won that test match, and obviously two big misses here today, so pressure on Joss Butler.

This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Let's get some reaction from the Pakistan camp. Sean Massoud has been speaking to Dan Norcross. Sean, at the end of that day, Pakistan in a really good position, but you had to really tough it out in the first session, didn't you? Yeah, I think playing against an English side, which is always tough to play in England, even around the world. They've got some world-class bowlers.

We've got some world-class bowlers sitting out of their playing 11. I think the ball good line and lens up front. It did a bit of the seam. And we lost a couple of wickets, and it could have gone the other way from there as well. So I think it was very important to get a partnership in and get through the day without losing any more wickets. There's been a lot of talk coming into this game

about problems you'd had with Jimmy Anderson in the past, but today you played him really well. Have you made any changes to your game? Look, I think you learn, you live and learn. This is a game which teaches you a lot of lessons, a lot of harsh lessons. I think 2016, it happened at the right time of my career. I mean, could have gone anyway.

But you learn. And again, there's no harm getting out to one of the best bowlers to ever play the game. I find no shame in that. He's a great bowler. He's gotten far better batsman than me out. And again, he bowled really well up front. And again, you just try and negate it. You try and take it day by day.

2016 and 2020 there's a huge difference and then you just don't look at those things so how did you feel when your captain won the toss and the overhead conditions were grey and it was muggy and gloomy and you knew that your team was going to want a bat first because you got two spinners in this game were you thinking actually I wouldn't have minded it

if you lost in the toss I think test cricket's all about the heat you play against world class teams play against the 10 best teams in the world and we're playing the world test championship at the moment so you have to take brave decisions We remember Australia taking a very brave decision in Adelaide where it was raining, the lights were on,

it was a day-night game, the pink ball hoops around under lights, and we learned as a side that you can't just watch the weather. You have to see the surface, and you have to brave it out. So open as soldiers, weather we're batting second as well. We only get 10 minutes to get back in. So, I mean, it's best that you get your opportunity first up. What did you make of that pitch? Because you've seen quite a lot of it today.

is it as dry and is it turning as much as you thought it might? I think we'll give it time. Maybe there's some dampness but we'll see how it plays out tomorrow with the weather getting better hopefully. And then we'll assess Old Trafford as it is always has decent bounce and carry. The wicket seemed dry from ball one. The ball was carrying through the keeper. And then Dombas I think bowled well. He got some purchase of the track as well.

So we'll see how it progresses. We'll wait for both sides to bat before really predicting anything. Lastly, such a curious tour to be on, really odd preparation for you guys, really staying in one location until you came here, and that's been it. How has your preparation been? I mean, in some ways, has it actually been a bit better because you've been playing against the tougher opposition of each other? Yeah, I think with all due respect to counties, they've got their whole season as well.

They have to look after their bowlers, especially. So when we played them in 2016, we had county squads that were rotating their ballers, they probably didn't play the first, the ballers that make their first squads. Again, 29 guys, that's a lot of guys. Again, it could have gone the other way as well. But I think we got amazing practice. We had a couple of warm-up matches in Worcester. Then in Derby, it got really competitive.

The guys had to go at each other as well. The wicket was quite spicy. So I think, and then when you have a management, we had 14 numbers. So in terms of preparation, I think we kept batting, ballers kept bowling. And we were very well looked after. And again, we have to be grateful that we're all playing the game we love in the country that's considered the home of cricket. And we're just fortunate that we're playing test cricket at such times.

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, it's been great to see county teams competing recently for the Bob Willis Trophy. Bob, of course, died in December at the age of 70. And this week, a new biography will be published about him. It was the idea of his wife, Lauren, and it's been edited by his brother David. I spoke to them both during lunch today, and we talked about various things, including Heading the 81, Bob's punditory style, and his love of Bob Dylan.

First, though, Lauren told me how she'd been coping without him. Well, Bob dying has been difficult, and also the lockdown has made it even harder, but actually doing the book has made it, has been really lovely because, you know, I've had something to focus on, and he had so many. amazing tributes he was so loved and so it's been a real honor to put it together yeah and david's been been tough for you too presumably yes it's not it's not fun uh losing a brother you're very very fond of and i was delighted that michael talked about bob dillon because bob dillan's management in new york have asked for two copies of the book and bob dillon actually wants one and we're hoping

The next Bob Dylan album will be about cricket. And if that's the case, we shall be doubly delighted. That'll be a challenge. So the Dylan, did they ever meet? Have they met? I'm not sure they ever met, but certainly in 1984 at St James's Park in Newcastle, Bob and Buffy both were invited onto the side of the stage.

And we could see them standing about six feet from Dylan. as he was waiting to come on stage. And this went on for eight or nine minutes, and I said to Bob after the show, I said, well, what on earth did you say to Bob Dylan? That must have been exciting. And he looked at me as if I was mad and said, speak to him.

You cannot be serious. Of course I didn't speak to him. No. And I just thought, my goodness, me, you wouldn't get many opportunities to speak to your hero, but I wouldn't accuse neither of those two. or Bob of being necessarily shy and retiring characters either. I thought one of them would have...

I think Bob would have been absolutely terrified to have met his hero. Yeah. In awe. Totally in awe. In fact, I've actually just written a handwritten note to Bob Dylan today with the book which made me cry, just telling Bob Dylan how much he meant to Bob.

I actually think that Bob preferred Bob Dylan to cricket. Right at the top of... What was it about Bob did? Because it was clearly, I mean, it was an infatuation? I mean, to actually go to the length of... Totally idolised him. Why? What about his work? What about his words or the music or the person?

Yeah, I'm not sure about the person, but he was... The words, he knew every single word to every single song. And I've been playing his new album, rough and rowdy ways, which, by the way, is absolutely fantastic. So I'm hoping that Bob now knows all the words to that album. them as well. Do you remember David when he announced he was actually going to put Dylan into his name? Well he brought I think times they are a changing home in 1963 and listened to it about

320 times non-top and said this guy is speaking to me like nobody has ever spoken to me and ever since 1963 until 2019 he seemed to regard Dylan as a Messiah of some kind, then worshipped him. He had all the albums. He listened to them all the time. And he found a guidance there, some sort of guidance through his life in the work of Bob Dylan. Whether it helped with his cricket, I really couldn't begin to say. No.

It turns to the book, Jonathan. Really what it is, half of the book is a biography. I mean, the story's quite well known, but it takes him through from birth to, his cricket career, about half of the book, and then the second half of the book is writing about his post-cricot career. So he's briefly a businessman with the National Sporting Club, and then he goes on into Sky and cricket commentary and made a name for himself, eventually found his niche snarling and snapping at people with his chainsaw. And obviously, that seemed to fit him very well and he entertained a lot of people as you know in that role so it's really

it entertained it entertained people but do you think it gave a lot of people a false impression of of what bob actually actually was completely absolutely um he he adopted he climbed into this suit of clothes of the grumpy old geezer and and played the play the role very very well but he was always right on the mark he did have to write a few letters of apology Because, you know, when you've called an England opening Batson, how long must we put up with this agonised stick insect? That's a little strong. And I think while we all thought that actually that particular opening Batson

did look a bit like a frozen stick, I'm trying to think, it was now. But don't make it. No, don't. We're not writing any more letters of apology. No, no, no, no, indeed. But we think it's going to be a very entertaining book. So there's Bob in his own words.

There's a chainsaw Bob chapter, some of the best pickings out of that, some of his own writing about something about Dylan, a lot about cricket. And, of course, there's a lot of tribute. Some extraordinary people have written seven or eight hundred words because they loved Bob and liked his company. It was no hardship getting pieces from John Major, Beefy Botham, Elton John. Michael's holding lots of people wrote some lovely stuff.

Yeah. Did you find it frustrating, Lauren, that perhaps he was misunderstood by people because of that snarly character on the telly. And he could be, as I remember, you know, Bob's obviously older than me, but so I was coming up into the game, and he was this towering man who often had a sort of deadpan face and a lot of hair. And there was a lot of times I'd like to have gone up to Bob and asked him a question, as he, rather like him and Bob Dylan, I suppose,

And I never quite had the guts to do it. And, you know, getting to know Bob on this side of the fence, of course, of course I should have gone up and asked him. He'd have been too pleased to have helped. Yeah, I think that, I mean, I think he did give the impression of being a bit terrifying. But that's really because he was very shy. And once you spoke to him, he was so lovely to everybody, remembered everybody's name, introduced himself as I'm Bob.

And I remember people going, well, I know that. And he was just very, very humble. and normal and loved getting public transport and lived a very, very normal life. The persona on the TV was, I mean, I think I sort of wound him up a bit at home during the day and obviously Charles Colville was very good at doing that and he thought about the lines and some worked and some didn't but he was very funny and I used to actually love it.

I think quite a lot of fans sort of quite liked it when England did badly because they knew that the verdict or the debate was going to be much more fun in the evening. Far up the chainsaw. Yeah. Was he rebellious, David? Again, that's a question. He sometimes might have given the impression of being a bit of a rebel. And then looking at the book, it was a lovely photo of him at the Palace, having received his MBE,

and he's got all the gear on his top hat and tails and everything else. And I suspect that could surprise some people. Because he might have, again, this thought of Bob was being a slightly rebellious character. yet there is very traditional, actually, in real life. Yes, I think he often would take the establishment of cricket to task and disapproved of some of the ways in which cricket was probably run through his regime. But when crucial moments came in his own career, for example, the Packer Revolution, the South Africa breweries, tours and so on, he actually stayed with the England cause.

although he was very, very tempted financially to go both with Paco and to South Africa, when push came to shove, slightly to people's surprise, he opted to stay with the England camp and stay with them. I'd like to pick up, if you'll indulge me, one little story about Bob being a funny man. Well, I went up in 1977 to watch the Warwickshire Australia match, the first morning of Warwickshire-Australia-Edgbaston, And would you believe Rowan Kanhai, that well-known West Indian superstar Baxman for Warwickshire, was having a benefit champagne breakfast to whom he invited the Australian team.

And at quarter to 11, with the match due to start, Australia could not put 11 men on the field because they had enjoyed the champagne breakfast so much. Several of them were still on their hands and knees in the bathroom. So Bob came to me and said, David, you've got to feel. field for Australia. I said, field for Australia. I can't. I can't feel for Australia. I've got no kit. So he went and got me Alvin Calicharan's cricket kit.

What? I'm six foot three. Alvin Calicteran is five foot five. And I squeezed myself ludicously. I must have looked like a Tour de France cyclist or something. I have no idea. And off I went. I was pushed onto the field. And I did 40 minutes fielding at third man and mid-on. while the Aussies sobered up and came on, Jeff Thompson eventually

came onto the field and said, right out to wealthy, you can go now. What a great sight, that must have been. Well, the PA, the public address announcers spluttered into life as I went on the field and said, and now fielding substitute for Australia is, who is this? And clicked off, you know,

but Bob was determined. that Australia should have 11 players on the field. He didn't want them to have any disadvantage, so he'd just drag me out, push me out there, and obviously the whole Warwickshire team found this very amusing. That's a lovely story. Lauren, when you see the heading the 81 and the amazing spell, obviously, won the game,

and there is this sort of haunted face almost. I mean, he really was somewhere else, wasn't he? But was that a regular thing? Or was it just on that particular day he'd have seemed to be transported off somewhere completely random, somewhere else where no one else was, obviously? Oh, gosh, that's a difficult question. I mean, he was a very intense person, but most of the time he was just very funny. Obviously, I was a bit younger than him, so I was only 13 in 1981, but I do remember watching it.

And it was really sort of the thing that him and especially in both and were the reason that I loved cricket and I love all sports. But, yeah, I don't... Well, I'll have you seen that before, David. Yes, I think there might be a better question for him. Did you see that in other parts of his life where he kind of retreat into this place where no one, Mike Brearly, so he doesn't knock to make sure that someone was in? Well, he could be very intense, that's certainly true.

And I think in that game, Jonathan, don't forget, he was really battling for his career. He wasn't selected for the match. Mike Hendrick was originally selected in front of him because they thought he wasn't fit. He rang the chairman of selectors, Alex Bedster, and said, no, I am fit. You should pick me. I'm going to be fine. So they intercepted the invitation to Mike Hendrick, pulled it out of the in-tray, pick Bob allowed him to play.

He didn't do all that much in the first innings, as Mike really said earlier. So when he turned to come down that hill, I think he knew this was absolutely his last chance. This was it. He had to do something special, something remarkable if he was ever going to pull on the England shirt again. And that focused his mind very, very intensely. And when Bob focused his mind, it was very focused and everything went out the window.

And it clicked that day and obviously made him a bit of a national hero for a while. Certainly did. Did he ever feel overshadowed by Ian? I was always heading day to one's Ian both of them. but Bob's part of it was clearly huge. One of the nicest things in the book, Jonathan, is Beefy Botham's tribute to Bob,

which is very, very hot and warming. They were very, very, very close, very, very good mates. And when either of them had a really serious problem in their lives, whatever of whatever kind, whatever colour, they would seek each other out, probably drink a bottle or two of wine. and would always always go to each other

with their biggest issues and biggest problems and Beefy was very, very fond of him and came down all the way North Yorkshire to Wimbledon as he was dying and made a couple of trips down and wanted to be very close which was very, very nice to see. He was, yeah, he was fond of Beefie and regarded him as a younger brother, I think,

in lots and lots of ways and helped him when he was starting out and then just eventually tried to keep tads on him and try to restrain some of his most eccentric behaviour. One of the interesting parts of the book that I've come across was actually the defence of his captaincy at Adelaide when he famously put Australia into bat and it all went wrong and he got a lot of stick for that.

I hadn't realised until I read the book that actually he didn't want to do it and that he was outnumbered by the team, basically, and he was a real sense of frustration coming through that he would have to go out and defend his decision but actually he didn't want to make in the first place. Yes, I think he was. He was extremely angry, but he blamed himself

because it was his responsibility to obey his own instincts and do what he thought was the right thing to do, which was to bat, but he allowed himself to be persuaded or bullied or wasn't be bullied, but persuaded by the batsman didn't much, much, fancy facing the Aussie quicks could we have another day's rest please or whatever and

put the Aussies into bat and they made about 600 or something and it was a disaster and of course England did it again not that long ago with similar results so there was a notion he was the feeling

was he was captain by committee there was that feeling but I think if you're a fast bowler coming in off a 45 yard run you cannot be in touch with everybody and everything and he needed input from other players. I think that's where the captaincy by committee thing. He also used to say that as he walked back for his 43 strides or whatever,

beefy would change the field when he wasn't looking. So that didn't help things either. He cared massively about cricket, Lauren. And I wonder how he'd feel about the Bobberliss trophy. Oh, wow. Would he be proud of that? Yeah, he'd be really, really proud. I mean, I spent hours with him.

He bought those sort of felt-tip highlighter pens and did this amazing spreadsheet of how he could try and transform the cricket season in the English summer. He was very keen that county cricket was played when nothing else was played, and it was all divided into, this is the time you played T20

and this is the time you play one day internationals, etc. And that England players could play county cricket, it. And so the fact that, I mean, it didn't get anywhere, of course, and he's been, he'd done that for years and years. But the fact that because of the current circumstances, there's now a curtailed county championship, which seems to have aroused quite a lot of excitement and to be named after him is a real honour. Yeah, and I think he'd be very proud. You've done some artwork for that, have you? Yes. Yeah, well, so during lockdown, when I was just sort of on my own for the first time in my life and struggling a bit.

I ordered some paints and canvases and things and thought I have another go at art for the first time since my A-level 32 years ago. And I didn't really know what to paint. So I looked up some pictures of Bob and thought I'd do Bob's bowling action. And it's a sort of cubist homage to Bob. And yeah, people seem to like them. and then we showed Edward Asprey the trophy designer

and my image and he thought it would be a better way of trying to make the trophy so I mean that's a massive honour an unexpected honour for me as well what also is a kind of a tribute in a way is the way that everybody even those I remember

Alester Cook copying Bob Willis's bowling action so I've now seen two absurd efforts at Bob's bowling action, take test wickets. One was Alan Lamb in Calcutta. In 1984, Victor was there when he ran from the boundary. No one else got a wicked

I don't think of the entire game. He ran for the boundary with that right hand going, raking away like it did, like Bob did. And he got Prabaka LBW. And then the next one was Alastairc, who would never have seen Bob Bowell. But he did a Bob Bullish impersonation and getting a wicked at Trent Bridge a few

years ago. And that's... I know. Bob was very proud of that. But Maybe they were all just laughing so much. They couldn't concentrate on defending their wicket. But, no, I mean, I think that his bowling action was very unique. I've been looking at a lot of photos of it. And, you know, I like the left arm above the head and all that sort of stuff. And you couldn't teach someone to bowl like that, I don't think.

No. No, and then when they did try to teach him, he couldn't actually bowl straight. So it was better left to that strange style that he came up with. himself did he always have that david you also played in the garden together would it was it did he come oh yeah he could have on 43 yards i don't suppose of it no but he could be quite fierce even in in the garden with the green the greenhouse is shattered with no pain of course um was the pavilion i think i'd like to just if i may i know we're clock ticking on us a bit three three groups of people should buy this book bob dillon fans because every chapter is named after of Bob Dylan's song quite appropriately.

So Bob Dylan fans must buy it. Cricket fans obviously must buy it. And the one thing we haven't spoken much about, but we're obviously very keen to mention, is the disease that killed Bob, prostate cancer. All the proceeds of the book are going to the charity. We think and hope the book will do very well. But anyone who's been touched by prostate cancer

needs to get involved, support the cause, read the book, and become a Bob Willis fan as well. Because I think all of those three groups of people, and there's lots of them, should go out and buy the book and make a donation. Yeah. I remember it's ironic we're doing it here. Three years ago, when my wife was going through this,

Bob took me to one side as a room at the back and sat down. We had about half an hour together talking about the whole business. And so I'll never forget that. How did he seem to you? Well, then he seemed, he was, He was having treatment and things were manageable. But he was just speaking about his experience of going through that disease.

And it was incredibly helpful. That's really nice. He didn't tell me that he'd ever said that to you, but that's typical of him as well. It's typical of the man that people of my age got to know. Intimidating, a bit aloof and deadpan from afar. He didn't mean to be like that. What a close and lovely man when he got to know.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC. We all miss Bob Willis And of course we wish his family all the very best You can watch highlights of today's play here at Old Trafford On today at the test, that's available on the eye player to watch at your leisure. There's a new Tail Enders podcast available featuring Stuart Broad with Greg James, Felix White and Jimmy Anderson And we're back on air tomorrow morning at 10.15 for our highlights half hour

on 5 Live Sports Extra and then from 1045 also on Radio 4 Longwave. Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.