Test Match Special - Day 1: Crawley comes of age

Episode Date: August 21, 2020

Jonathan Agnew presents from the Ageas Bowl where Zak Crawley's brilliant maiden century has put England in command of the 3rd and final Test against Pakistan. His 171 not out, and unbroken partnership of 205 with Jos Buttler, guided England from 127-4 to 332-4 at the close. Aggers is joined by Michael Vaughan and Azhar Mahmood to review the day, while Crawley tells Daniel Norcross how it feels to get his first century and why his dad will be the first person he calls. The outgoing ECB chairman Colin Graves explains how vital it's been for English cricket to have these series against Pakistan and West Indies and how he would improve the structure of county cricket, and Simon Hughes and the Rajasthan Royals owner Manoj Badale discuss their new book in which they outline how cricket can change post-COVID.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. This is the TMS Podcast. from BBC Radio 5 Live. I'm Jonathan Agnew.

Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast, looking back on an eventful opening day of the third England-Pakistan test at the Ageas Bowl. To come, we'll hear from Zach Crawley, who's scored his maiden test century today, and we'll get the views of Michael Vaughan and Azamamamud. We'll also hear from England's outgoing chairman,

Colin Graves, and we'll discuss how cricket could be changed by the COVID crisis. You're listening to the TMS podcast. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Close of play of the first day of the third and final test between England and Pakistan sees England on 332 for 4.

A fluctuating day, they were 127 for 4 at one stage and a stand of 205, still ongoing. Between Zach Crawley in his eighth test, has reached his first test century, and he's gone well beyond that. He's 177 not out. And so 23 more than. away from becoming the youngest double centurion for England since David Gower 41 years ago and before that Sir Leonard Hutton so he could be in really serious company if he gets those 23 runs tomorrow and let's mention Joss Butler too 87 not out seems a long time ago that he scored his first test century but he himself was 13 runs away from adding to that so that partnership of 205 really has swung things around after Burns fell to a 3D again the left armour

Beautifully taken low down at fourth slip by Shan for six. That was 12 for 1. 73 for 2 when Sibley was LBW to Yasser Shah, the wrist spinner. He was out for 22. Joe Root was out for 29. He was caught by Rizwaan. A terrific ball hit the scene, moved away, bounced. De Welter Nickett, really, off Nassim Shah.

For 29, 114 for 3. And shortly after that, Olly Pope was bowled by Yasser again for the second time. And the same way, really. he found himself on the back foot the ball scuttled through his bat was all over the place and he was bowled for three so Pakistan then firmly on top but they've been rather snuffed out with that stand 205 they got a bit ragged if we're honest after tea Shahina free one for 71 Muhammad Abbas no wickets for him and there we were saying how difficult he would be in these conditions

Yasashar two for 107 Nasim shah one for 66 and farad al-am bowleda bowl just six overs of his left arm spin so Michael Vaughan's alongside me that was an interesting day of test cricket. Yeah, I mean, you go back to that runchase at Old Traffa, that was dramatic. It was a fantastic partnership between Wokes and Butler. For me, that's been England's best day of the summer. Because at 127 for 4, you know, quite easy the test match could have gone the way of Pakistan. If, you know, Josh Butler hadn't come out and played the way that he did.

But it was the manner of which that partnership was developed from the get-go. It was control, composure, calmness, just playing real. good cricketing strokes, not risky, just good test match cricket in strokes. And in Zach Crawley, I don't think you can see a better century. You know, the way that he's just come out there, the first ball, he gets a leg some par folly, all right, it's a leg some path folly

and you should put it away, but it's his manner of arriving at the crease, and he goes, thank you very much, that's a four, and then he played a drive down the ground, then he got one three extra cover off the back foot, and straight away, he kind of was watching a young player, and he knows exactly what he's about. You know, that 50 that

he scored just the other day on that last afternoon where it was a dead rubber, nothing to play for. Well, clearly, he had a huge amount to play for, and he had a look at the Pakistan attack for an hour or two. Definitely helped, no question. Then he came out today, and the ball probably didn't do as much as England thought it was going to do. I think we all expected the ball to do a bit more today. And, you know, he just looks at the kind of player that, I always look at it as a captain think,

how would I keep him quiet? I think he's very difficult to keep quiet because he can drive down the ground, so you have to protect square. and then he plays defensively quite late so he lets the ball run onto the bat so he gets it down to third man in defence so you need to protect that area he can drive through the covers

he can punch through the covers off the back foot he's got the pull shot he's got the flick off the hip you know you're looking to think well you've probably got only a small margin of error as a bowl if not you know he's going to be able to continue to get the scoreboard ticking so pays a spinners well too it's not much of a day for spinners today

but I'm thinking of the winter the sweep he got and a reverse sweep again it's just something that will all go well but you go back to that 50 that he scored just a few days ago when the ball was spinning around and he danced down to yassie of Sean popped him over the top and thought yep like that and then he's got the hard sweep he gets back and punches it

you know and he hits the ball hard you know he hits it with power and timing and every time I watched today and thought oh there's a scoring opportunity very very rarely did he miss the gap you know when he got that four ball to hit he timed it into the gap and it went to the boundary You know, it's his first century

but there's some players that get the first century that they get it and you think oh, they've had to work so hard to get it. I thought he made that look very easy. And when you see a young player get a century make it look so easy, he should get many, many more. Yeah, as I'm a mood.

Funny old day for Pakistan. How do you sum that up? You had your moment there, 127 for four? Yeah, it was 124 for four. But I was so pleased to see these two guys, you know, especially Crowley, as Michael mentioned, you know, looking at the young player and, you know, the amount of control and discipline he showed, and then the short play that he had, you know, he got all the short in his book.

And the manner he played against PIN, especially Yashit Shah, you know, when he come round the stumps and he was trying to bowl from the rough and he went straight away, reverse sweep, and then reverse sweep again. And Yassir has to come back to the over the stumps and bowl from there. So putting pressure on the Pakistan straight away. If you see the start of the day, yes, Pakistan go to early wicket. And then this guy, Crowley, you know, put pressure on Pakistan. Pakistan managed to bowl the first, I think, mid and over after 24th to 25th hours.

Maybe I would say they bowled really well. I would say they were not as discipline as they were in the past. But today, condition was really tough for the fastball. If you see Yasser coming back after 11th hour from this end, it was tough condition. And that's why Captain used him, Nassim Shah from the pavilion. And it was tough condition for them, but full credit goes to Butler and Crowley. Just to put it into perspective, I don't suppose that Nassim Shah or Afridi would have played in blustery conditions like this because you just don't, at home he wouldn't get conditions like this, would you, wind howling across the ground like this?

No, no. And they are inexperienced. They have 30 first-class matches between them. And they're going to learn from this. and it was tough like we heard Joe Root said you know

on these type of condition our bowling struggles and if Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broad struggled with the wind so these guys are young they will learn from this look at England's

openers again Michael Rory Burns well Afridi's kind of got him on toast at the moment isn't he? Yeah I mean it's not a bad ball you know I thought the the ball he got in

the second test match was a beauty because it zipped off the surface today You know, I do have concern about that right foot. It keeps going over to outside off something, and he has to drag it back. So even a ball on off stump,

it doesn't have to do a great deal. You've been saying it's a long time now? Yeah, and his left shoulder comes in. He squares up to balls that aren't doing a great deal on and around that off stump. And I look at his technique, and I love his character because he works things out, and he worked a few things out last summer against Australia.

They bounced him, and he went away, and he worked. You know, after the Ireland game, when he had two failures, he went away and worked, and he came back with his hands closer in. But it's that right foot. Every time I see that go across, and it happens all the time.

I just watch him at this level against high quality seam bowlers Asra, you're going to see that and think I don't need to do that much with the ball early on in his innings to try and create that opportunity. Is it coachable? Can you get that? Very difficult. That looks to me like it's a technique

that's been with him for many, many years and it's worked he's got runs. You know, if you look to when he had success against Australia, what do the Aussies do, Cummins, Hayeswood? They whack the ball into the surface and generally you're playing from Midriff around your thigh pad height. You know, they don't generally bring you forward.

The short stuff, they're intimidating you. To me, this summer, that ball that's full of length, at 3D, a bass, just wobbling it on off. I'm basically saying, can you play a forward defence shot? So often he's getting squared up and either being out, LBW playing across the line because he's falling over to the offside or in the last two innings, just the decent balls. But again, with Joe Loo, I'll talk about Gerrit.

Joe's had a couple of good balls from Nassim's shop. I reckon when he's playing at his best and his alignment's perfect, I think he gets away with it. And I think because he's not quite in sync and I think his right shoulder's coming in. Today I thought his feet were too over to the offside. So then that right shoulder came in just a little bit too soon and then you get caught behind.

It looks at Jaffer and it is a good ball. But I just think when Joe's playing at his best, I think he gets away with that. I think he plays that ball a little bit better. That's being ultra-critical because Joe's a high-class player. But in Rory Burns, his quality will be, if he gets in and he got in here against the West Indies, he got to 34 and then he played a,

across the line he's going to have to capitalize and go big like Zach Crawley has them today you know with that technique I just think

he will get quite a lot of low scores so when he gets in he's going to have to get the big big scores Asso you put your hand up you had something to say yeah

Rory Burns you know like Michael said his foot across to off-storm if you see his head position when he does shuffle so his head goes first

and then a foot goes there if he can manage to get his foot towards the line of the ball I think this foot will be not going towards that side, you know. Just weight going forward rather than sideways. Because head is the heaviest past over your body.

If your head goes there, your foot and body will go. If you see compared to Patler in the first test match, you know, he slightly changed his technique a little bit. You know, he slightly opened a little bit. And that's why if you see the first test match when he got against West Indies, so his foot was going across the, towards the cover area. And now you see everything is going back towards the ball, where's the ball coming from?

The one thing for Rory Burns is after this test match, he's got an amount of time, you know, he's got until January to potentially just iron that slight defeat. I'm not saying he's going to be completely neutral with his feet because that could be a massive change for what he's done for many, many years. But if he can just get a little bit more neutral, so that right foot's not always going outside off-stum, but if it can just, it will go because that's what he's always done,

but if it can only go to just on off-stump, it might give him a better opportunity of surviving those balls on and around the off-stump. Now, what about Ollie Pope? twice now he's been bowled in the same way by Yasser and he's only twice and we know what a very talented young player he is but on the flip side of us saying how comfortable crawl

is looked against spin it wouldn't be right if we didn't say but Pope on the other hand has had these issues against the wrist spinner well and where England go in the winter Sri Lanka potentially test against India I'm surprised particularly today the first one in the second test I kind of watch go

you can get done by a spinning that way because you've not quite seen it and you just misread the length and it kind of scoots on but you then go to bay and go I'm not letting that happen again there's no way if anything you'd rather go past the outside edge but you have to cover your stunts you know Shane warn used to get so many with that straight on delivery you know and I always remember Duncan Fletcher saying to me just make sure you play for the straight one play for the straight one because that can get you our LBW and it can bowl you the one that spins and if you misread anything just play as if it's going to be straight because

if you don't, you're going to get done like Ollie Poe's been done in the last two games. You remember Alex Stewart was done a couple of times trying to cut the boy. It scoots on. And it always kind of embedded in my mind when Dunflete's, play for the... If you're in any doubt, play for the straight one. And I just wonder if Ollie Pope could learn from the other

day, and he certainly should have learnt to take it into this innings, that if he's in doubt to think, oh wait a minute, what's that, just play for the straight one. You seem to be done by the length as well today. Yeah, it did, yeah. Yeah, yeah, ball, that quicker one really well. It feels like, you know, like it's a, spinner as well, but because he pushes the ball from his fingers

and he comes really to you it's just like, you know, it's a leg spinner and you miss your length. If you're playing on the back foot against Jarser, you're in trouble because he bowled stump to stumps and it's very difficult. And because he's short, you know, you saw Joe Root play two or three attempted kind of cut shots that he made, he went

under the bat. And when you've sat in the balcony and seen that you know, as a younger player, they're the kind of things that you look for in young players. Are they assessing what's happening in the middle before they go out to bat. And that'll be the one thing I say to Ollie Pope is, look, Ollie, you've got to sit on that balcony.

You've seen the England captain go back and try and cut Yassie Ashah a few times and he's missed it. You know, you've got to be embedding that into your mind for when you go out and batting in the middle and go, okay, it doesn't look like it's the kind of pits that it's spitting and kind of bouncing for you to play the cook shot. You've got to play with a straight bat. So just little things that young players

can really pick up from sitting on the balcony watching before they go out there and bat. And Pakistan's plan tomorrow, Azah? It's a tough one. They need to get a couple of wickets and get... Wokes is in next. Wokes, Bess, Archer.

You know, it's a different ball game. You never know. They can come tomorrow morning and grab a couple of quick wickets and then games on. But otherwise, you know, the way they bet it, I think they're going to take the game away from Pakistan.

That session looked to me like the wheels of the bus just started to get a bit loose. Yes, they do. It looks a bit... Which is disappointing because they were so on it in the first test. They looked dejected, the body language wasn't great. You know, a few misfields. Yassir Shah looked tidy, he bowed 28 overs.

He chased after one in the last every. I'm not sure he'll get out of bed in the month. Running through quicksane. He might need some help. No, no, Yasser has been phenomenal. He can bowl 30 hours and next morning again, he will smile on his bed and he'll do the same thing again. You know, it was tough, tough situation today.

You know, like condition was really tough. It's not easy. M.S podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Thanks to Asamamamud and Michael Vaughn. Let's go some reaction from the undoubted man of the day. Zach Crawley has been speaking to Daniel Norcross. Zach, 171 not out. Is there any better feeling in the world

than walking off a test match ground knowing that you're going to wake up tomorrow and come back out to bat on 171? No, I haven't had a better feeling in cricket at that is for sure. So, you know, hopefully I can get a few more because it was one of the feelings that you definitely want again. You must have joked about this. You must have imagined it and sort of visualised it since you're, if you ever were, a small boy.

Is it how you imagined it was going to be? Yeah, it was. I mean, it was just an unbelievable feeling, you know, to finally get there. And you've got no more work to do to get there. And it was just, you know, it's just, it's hard to put into words. But it was just pure relation, really. And, you know, it was nice to kick on and get a few after, obviously, you know, I was pretty excited. after the 100 so um to get a few and kick on was nice and hopefully you know we can get a few more

tomorrow morning i was i was going to say it's quite reserved celebration when you got to the 100 was was that because you had sort of steeled yourself to go beyond that uh yeah i like to keep it quite calm just so um you know it's probably more work to do out there when i at the time i'd got my hundred so it was um you know inside i was i was jumping around but um you know you try and keep calm on the outside because you know you got more work to do who's gonna be the first person you thank when you get on the phone. I'll be my parents for sure. I mean, my old man, he's just been great for me

and support me the whole way and told me to go for cricket since I was 10 years old. So, you know, I wouldn't be here without him and obviously my mum alongside him as well. You were very fluent in the first session of the day, but England found themselves in more than a spot of bother at 127 for four when Ollie Pope was out. Josh Butler comes in, and again, he's involved in that crucial partnership

with Chris Wokes, of course, in the first game against Pakistan. on. Tell me what it was like batting with him. It was brilliant. He's such a cool head and, you know, he really helped me get near that milestone and he batted brilliantly himself and, you know, he scores so freely that he makes it a lot easier on you when you get back on strike. So, you know, it's the first time I'm back on with him and hopefully we can have a few more good partnerships. When the second new ball was taken, it seemed that you both had taken an approach to be aggressive.

That's what it looked like from the commentary box. Was that a deliberate approach? Not really. We were just both in and, you know, both feeling good and, you know, we were laughing about it and the newer ball comes off so nicely that you kind of want to hit every ball for but we had to rein ourselves in a little bit because you can't get too excited and I had a couple of play in-misses and you know so it was

that wasn't deliberate it was just we were both in and you know playing our shots tell us a bit about the wind we've been talking about it all day and the further up you are it's really heavy down here in the bowl was it as heavy as it looked like to us there were some moments when it was really heavy but it wasn't too bad throughout the day I mean it was

I assume it wasn't too easy to bowling but it wasn't a massive win so there was a couple of points when it was picked up but it wasn't too bad and the plan for tomorrow presumably bat big yeah bat big hopefully and then take a few a few wickets before the end of the day

and that would be a really good day and get just to his hundred that would be very nice he deserves it Zach you deserve all the pleasure you can have tonight you've played absolutely superbly congratulations your highest first class score as well as I'm sure you know I do thank you very much cheers Zach thank you

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So great to hear from Zach Corey. Congratulations to him, how well he played. Well, earlier today I was joined by the outgoing ECB chairman, Colin Graves. We talked about the changes he would make to county cricket and just why the hundred is needed to capture a larger audience. First, though, he explained how things are looking for English cricket compared to four months ago.

Yeah, at the start of the season, Jonathan, April, Maytime, we were staring down the barrel and things weren't looking good at all and then we came up with the idea of the biosecurity ground with no crowds and our guys worked on that and particularly Steve Elworthy who put a plan together

and we talked with government on a regular basis to get that up and ring and it's certainly saved us from even bigger losses than what we are going to end up with but we got international cricket back on which was the main thing Would there have changed been necessary in our game like now

with or without coronavirus? I mean, do think that it's inevitable that the English game does have to change in order to survive? I think coronavirus will concentrate minds. You know, we did the broadcasting deal, which the new broadcasting deal came in this year, 2020, for five years. and you know we had a very good budget to spread and spend across the game recreational cricket women's cricket schools cricket etc you know that's now changed

going forward because we won't have the money that we anticipated so I think it is a time for the game to just stop and reflect and it's what I said to the German when I spoke to them for the last time last week was now's time where really you need to sit down together you need to sit down with the ECB and all the other stakeholders and look at what we've got and just see if there's an opportunity to look at remodeling what we've got. Because it's like a lot of things, you know, you go along and you keep investing in things year after year after year. But when something changes dramatically, like COVID-19 has done to us, it's changed the world. It's changed lives. It's changed businesses. You know,

cricket, I believe, has got an opportunity just to stop and look at what we've got and what we can have going forward? Can we do it better? Can we do it differently? And that's the message that I've just left English cricket with because I think there's an opportunity just to consult about it and talk about it and look at it rather than just turn around and say, well, we all want to go back to where we were. I'll imagine that remodeling is an easier pill to swallow than closing down or reducing the number of counties or something. I mean, do you still see a future for the 18 counties, but albeit, well, remodeled, as you said. Yeah, and I've always said this, Jonathan.

Again, it annoyed me when I first took over that. People were saying I was anti-18 counties. I have never, ever been anti-18 counties, and I never will be. What I've said is there is a role for 18-counties, and there may be different roles for 18-counties. And it may be a different model that counties play under. And that's all I'm leaving the game with is a message to, look at the models that are available and could be available, because can we do it better?

We've got an opportunity now to just take stock of where we are, and just let's look at it, let's talk about it. We know roughly where we're going to be financial-wise, hopefully, at the end of September. The only thing which we don't know about is whether crowds are going to be here next year or 50% crowds or 30% crowds, that's the unknown factor at the present time. But at the end of the day, just let's talk about it. If you were leading the remodeling, rather than leaving the remodeling, if you were leading it, what would you like to do?

What would you like to, where would like to see it going? How would you see, I mean, you talked about some counties only playing whiteball crickets. They'd be involved in the blast or the 50 overs or whatever. But you really think that there is a future for counties to give up their first class status? I wouldn't say that. They give up the first class status, Jonathan. Again, people put different slants on things that I've said over the years, so I've got to be careful of what I say, but I can say it now.

You say it on the record, now? Because I'm leaving the ECB, so it's not down to me going forward. But I think there is something to look at where, basically, and people have said this to me on a regular basis over the last five years, the standard of the second division at the bottom is not very good. We're playing a lot of average cricket down there. A lot of the matches don't last four days. Personally, and this is me, so don't anybody take it.

This is an ECB proposition going forward. It is not. My personal choice would be to look at three divisions of six or three divisions of seven. You could introduce three new teams into that bottom division. And virtually I would have the top two, first and second division, that's four-day cricket. So you'd have 12 or 14 teams playing in the top two divisions. and the third division I would have playing three-day red ball cricket but semi-pro

and it's still be first-class cricket but it'd be a different slant to one and two divisions and that's that's my take on it that's what I would that's interesting that's what I would look at to say just let's take stock and how can we make it better and if it's if you're playing semi-pro in the third division three days I think you'll get a slant of people coming to play in that who are still working and want to break into cricket, it'll give them an opportunity to break into it. And it's taking nothing away from those counties. It's just saying, can you play a third division,

better standard and better intensity, really? I suspect there's probably somewhere where you might feel have also been misquoted or misunderstood or something you might want to clear up. It's the question of the hundred. And how it came to be, really. I mean, there's been so many rumours. and things about how the 100 actually came to exist,

or at least the concept of it hasn't actually happened yet. But what was the back, now you're going, you can say what was the background to this tournament and why did you feel that you needed it? The big thing, and we've said this all the way down the line, but a lot of people tend to forget why we looked at the 100. And we did a lot of research into the 100. We didn't do it on the back of the fag packet

and somebody getting up one morning, and Sanjay Patel saying, oh, this is a good idea. And he talked to Andrew Strauss, and Strauss, he said, yeah, I'll go along with that, etc. A lot of people looked at what we were doing, looked at the audience that we were having and the support that we're having. And when it boiled down to it,

we have constantly about a million people each year who turn up and watch cricket. That's right across test cricket, T20, the whole shooting man. So we had about a standard million people. And that was stagnant. It wasn't moving anywhere, really. And yet we've got 10 million people who follow cricket. So there's a massive gap of 9 million people who never came and watched.

So we then looked at something to attract a new audience. And that new audience is women, children, families, a bit of an entertainment product, a shorter game because in all the research that came out was cricket's too complicated. It goes on too long. We can't understand it. And that's why we don't come. so we looked at a model of what could attract that new audience into cricket

and the 100 ticked all those boxes and we have worked tirelessly for the last two and a half years and it's a pity this year we had to postpone it was the right decision to postpone it don't get me wrong but basically we've worked for two and a half years to get this model right for the 100 and the 100 board

who's worked tirelessly with our executive to build that and get that ready, it will be different. It will be a different form of entertainment. Yes, it's cricket. It's a shorter form cricket. It can be two and half hours. And we want to attract that new audience.

And that's what people forget. We don't want to turn the existing cricket audience away. That's the last thing we want. We want them to come as well as the new audience. Do you regret some of the PR at the time when I guess you were defensive of the 100, but the message seemed very much to be that it was not for existing.

cricket followers. It was for an entirely new audience. I think that certainly put the noses out of joint of a lot of people who love the game. Yeah, it did, and I think there was one or two mischiefers people who put that out. We didn't put that ourselves out categorically, just as you said it. One problem we had, and

this is a problem that the game has got, if we need to change anything within the game, within the constitution, within the formats, etc., we have to consult with our stakeholders, rightfully so. Nothing wrong with that at all. So we consulted with our stakeholders, us for a year, 18 months, and then we had to go to a vote to change the constitution

to get the new game, accepted by the game. During all that consultation, there was a lot of mischief put out there by various people, by various, and I'll say it now, by various journalists, by various stakeholders, who virtually tried to undermine it for various reasons that they thought fit. That didn't help us at all, and it made it a hundred times. difficult to do it. But when it came to the vote, and I remind people of this, when it came to the vote for the 100, we've got 41 stakeholders, it was 383. Now that to me is unanimous. Almost, yes, certainly. Can you afford it? I mean, you've talked about the cutbacks going to happen. Of course we can afford it. You could afford it next year? Yes, we can because

basically, another thing that a lot of people don't realize is that the new broadcasting deal, including the 100, brought BBC terrestrial television back into the frame, back onto the negotiating table, and the 100 is going to be on BBC terrestrial television as well as Sky. So from that perspective, that new money coming in substantially then allowed us to give the professional stakeholders 1.3 million each guaranteed. So if the hundred's not here next year, each county will be 1.3 million down on what they're anticipating.

That is fact. That is if you don't receive the money from the broadcasters, but you haven't had that this year. Well, we haven't had it this year because we haven't played it. No, exactly. So that... But if we decide and not we, I can't say we anymore, if ECB decide next year, if we've still got this COVID-19

and we're still playing behind closed doors and they decide to play the 100 behind closed doors, then the broadcasting money will still come in because we're still playing it. Do you think it would work behind closed doors because the whole idea of this is to get people in

and to be entertainment as you said and to try and imagine launching a new tournament of this type with no one there would be a real challenge, wouldn't it? It would be a challenge but at the end of the day what we have talked about

and we had a 100 board meeting last week and that 100 board was very positive that if we cannot have crowds next year they believe that we should go ahead with the tournament and create it as an entertainment product we've seen it on television this year with no crowds and I saw the viewing figures yesterday for the first time and the viewing figures both on Sky

and BBC highlights and everything for cricket are fantastic they have gone through the roof so to me if that's happened this year and that's all been done in a short space of time If we have to play behind closed doors next year, let's make it an entertainment product to get these viewers and to get these new audience watching the new 100 game. How much of a blow to the women's game do you think it has been

that it looks as if it's unlikely there'll be any women's internationals this summer? Well, it's disappointing certainly, and it's unfortunate that South Africa and India couldn't travel over here. We are talking at the present time to West Indies and hopefully we might be able to get the West Indies women over here for some international cricket so we're still working on that one and this is what the exec team's been doing ever since COVID-19 started

and that's why we've been able to secure international cricket with Pakistan with West Indies, Australia and Ireland to achieve that has been phenomenal behind closed doors and we're hoping to get some women's cricket not as much as we anticipated at the back end of September September-ish. Highlight of your five years, go on. Let me give you.

You can indulge yourself for 20 seconds, Colin. What was the time you stood there? Say, my word, that really, that's the best part of this. There was two mainly, winning the men's World Cup and winning the women's World Cup. To me, it were fantastic days. It was better still because it was on home soil at Lords. So those two achievements were absolutely fantastic. And I'll never forget those, and I've been proud to be part of the ECB for five years.

You're listening to this. the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, there was further discussion about the future of cricket when I spoke to Simon Hughes and the Rajasthan Royal's owner, Manoj Badali, about their new book and new innings in which they discuss how the sport can evolve in a post-COVID world. Manos told me how he thinks the pandemic might affect cricket going forwards. I mean, I think cricket's actually had a really exciting juncture. I mean, there's no question that coronavirus has forced

probably more conversation about the business of cricket and the economics of cricket than at any other time in the last 10 to 15 years, probably actually since the advent of the IPL, which is something we try and chart in the book. But I think when you take a step back and you look at the economic growth of South Asia, when you look at the transformation that digital and technology is bringing to all sports, when you look at the events of last summer, you look at the the growth of women's cricket, the growth of cricket in the US, the success of the shorter form formats. I mean, I think there's a huge amount to be excited about, but cricket's going

to have to make some important choices over the next two to three years. How much are you playing the traditionalist in all this, Simon? I mean, you are a traditionalist, but you also like innovation as well. So, I mean, you're interesting to how, the balance that you're having here. I suppose, really, that, you know, I know a lot of people probably listening a quiet anti the T20 format but my argument is it's still cricket it's just a different form of the game and it's still got a bat a ball a pitch 22 yards long which was from 17 you know 1700s is still exactly the same and in a way the the great advantage of T20 is it's drawn in new income both from broadcasters and investors like Manorj for instance and many other people

sponsors, which is enabled the game to be sustainable and then give us our luxuries, which are test cricket, first class cricket, which don't really pay for themselves. Certainly first class cricket doesn't. It's a drain on the resources of the game. But the opportunity to do that, and that's important because that is the quality, that is the elite version of the game, a lot of the top players still measure their own careers by how much they've achieved in test cricket, you know, the Joe Roots and Steve Smith, and they all want to play Josh Butler. Look at Josh Butler. He wants to play test cricket. He wants to prove himself by making

100 at test levels. So we still want to maintain that, but we see that the importance of T20 and the IPL. The IPL is a third of the world's cricket economy, 600 million it brings in in dollars every year, and that's a third of the cricket economy. So it's twice or three times more, I think, than the World Cup brought in. So you need that form of the game to, it's the shot window for cricket, but there's all that other sort of tremendous stuff going on underneath, which the players really still want to participate in. And in some countries, people still want to watch, but not in all. Do you worry, Manoj about the future of the financing of cricket, because the same broadcasters that we're talking about are probably going to be impacted in the same

way as everyone else has been. And the money for the rights and everything that they're paying out for, perhaps might not be there. And either they're going to default on the contracts is massive eye-watering sums that they've signed up for, or broadcasters are going to retreat from paying that sort of money in future. Not really, Agass. Because, you know, while we've got, while broadcasters have got challenges, while sponsors have got challenges, while the economy as a whole has got significant challenges, you know, one of the things that COVID has done and one of the things we've seen over the last three to five years is the, you know, emergence of completely new broadcasting

platforms and the emergence of big tech, you know, the Amazons, the Facebooks, the Googles, the YouTube, et cetera, all of whom are going to play a massive role in the next wave of how cricket gets funded. And so I think, again, it's back to embracing that change, accepting that cricket as a sport has got the ability to integrate data, integrate technology in a way that almost no other sport has. If you focus on those opportunities, I think cricket's got an opportunity to open up whole new sources of income that are as yet untapped.

So can you both leave me gently by the hand then and show me what this whole new world is going to look like in 15 years' time or however your time frame is for how the game is going to be changed as a result of what has happened? Go on, Man, just take me gently. Look, I think there's a few themes that you'll like and a few that you probably won't. I mean, I do think there's going to be a simplification of the formats. I think there's going to be a reduction of the number of professional clubs and franchises that play the game in the major nations. I think one of the biggest challenges facing the game is the sort of dominance in the economy of India.

I mean, there aren't many sports, many global sports where 90% of the income, comes from one country. And so I think balancing that power in India learning to lead is going to be a really important determinant of the success of this next wave. But I think fewer formats, I think more short form competitions, a greater integration globally across those different competitions so that there's a real purpose to the secondary tournaments and the tertiary tournaments. And I think you're going to see cricket have a real crack at the US as well.

I mean, it's something that, you know, we've heard about and we've seen about, we've had exhibition matches going over there. But the South Asian diaspora presents a really interesting economic opportunity in countries like the UK, the US, and the Middle East. And so I think cricket's got a kind of once-in-a-generational opportunity. And things like the Olympics, which play such an important role in promoting the inclusivity of all sports, have to address South Asia at some point. and if the IOC wants the Olympics to take off in South Asia,

there's only one sport that really matters. So those are just some of the things I think you're going to see. So do you see a way forward for test cricket is actually reducing the test cricket and actually the reducing number of teams, therefore reducing the amount of preparation that players have to have, because they do have to prepare for test cricket. You can't go out and play a series of test cricket, having purely played T20 cricket.

That's not what test cricket actually is about. But would fewer teams, and so on, and instead of less requirement for preparation amongst fewer players and so on, would that be a way that you're looking at going forward? I think, I mean, you just summarise beautifully the conclusions that we draw around test cricket, which is there's an old adage in sort of the business of sport, which is often less is more. You know, one of the worst things you could do for the Olympics is increase its frequency from every four years. It's special because it's every four years.

And actually the danger at the moment with cricket, is we are having too much of the tournaments and the events that generate the income like the ashes. I mean, the ashes, when I grew up as a kid, seem to be a lot less than they are today. And so I think fewer test match teams, making those test match series greater events and regularizing when they are in the calendar so that people can plan ahead a year or two years. I mean, one of the great things about test match atmospheres are the number of travelling fans and the fun that sort of wraps around the event.

One of the great things about Wimbledon is the fun that's wrapped around the event, but we all know when Wimbledon is going to be. I don't think there's anyone listening to this that knows what the World Test Series Championship is about, and there's even fewer listeners that know exactly when the next Ashes series is going to be. How do you stop people getting bored with T20?

That's a good question actually I mean I think you I think what will encourage people to watch it more and I know you're not the biggest fan aggers are you I enjoy watching it I just take a big lasting memory away No I mean that's obviously a problem It's always going to be a problem

It's a bit like a sort of fast food meal isn't it It gives you suss and it's at the time But it doesn't leave you with You know there's no way that you can compete With test cricket for the sort of fulfillment and depth of experience that you get in a test match from a playing point of view as much as from a watching point of view. I think just to see the best players in the world

throw their weight behind T20 and really enjoy it, I mean, I spoke to Steve Smith the other day. He loves T20, just as much as he loves building an innings and batting all day in a test match. He's getting a million bucks a year, I'm sure he loves it. Yeah, but it isn't only about money. I mean, he loves the opportunity. The thing is, the thing is maybe two million,

But the point is, he loves the opportunity that T20 offers to practice all day. And then he can go out and exploit his abilities in the evening on over sort of 10 or 15 overs. It's not going to leave you with the same deep sensation of satisfaction, either as a viewer or as a player. But it's still kind of got great exhibition of the skills of the game and the drama of the game. So just as a last, you know, just underlining what we would talk about here, I mean, how is seismic a change do you think this is going to be Manage or you see it necessary to make to get cricket through this,

well, into this new innings of yours? Yeah, I think it is pretty important. I mean, you know, conversations around where the game is played geographically, conversations around the number of formats that we continue to invest in, conversations about whether we have private ownership in countries like, the UK, which historically, in places like England where we've historically not had that, conversations around how we knit together, the number of global T20 tournaments, conversations around the Olympics.

I mean, these are important and difficult topics. And that's, and probably the two biggest topics that we haven't even talked about, are how we embrace gaming and gambling. In a new world, cricket's going to be looking for every single new source of income that can possibly get. And when you've got 27 out of the 44 Premier League championship clubs with betting companies on their front of shirt. Do you approve of that, by the way?

Do you think that's right? I actually don't. I think it's inevitable that sport has to embrace gambling income in some shape or form. And I think the way to do that is to legalize it. The way to do that is to regulate it. And the way to do that is to work with the gambling industry. But I think the almost ubiquitous presence of gambling brands across soccer is something we should be quite fearful of in cricket, because in a post-COVID world, the administrators, understandably, are going to look for new sources of income.

Quick one, Simon. I'll just sound a positive note to finish on, really, not that we've been negative, but cricket is a sport that's been going since the 1700s. It's the great survivor. It's always evolved to adapt to its circumstances, and it will continue to do so. And, you know, our book is really just exploring the kind of ways it will. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Today at the test, our highlights show is available to watch on the BBC Eye Player or the website. We're back on air at 10.15 on Five Live Sports Extra.