Test Match Special - Day 2: England in trouble

Episode Date: August 6, 2020

Jonathan Agnew presents from Old Trafford where Pakistan are firmly in control of the 1st Test against England. After the tourists were all out for 326, with Shan Masood scoring a superb 156, their bowlers seized the moment to leave England on 92-4 at the close. Aggers, Michael Vaughan and Azhar Mahmood look back on the day while Henry Moeran interviews Masood and England bowler Jofra Archer, who discusses England's display and how he felt to miss the 2nd Test against West Indies when he broke the bio-secure protocols. There's also an interview with PCB chairman Ehsan Mani on why he thinks England should tour in Pakistan once again and whether we could see a Test match against neighbours India soon.

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Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast, looking back on a really exciting second day of the England-Pakistan test here at Emirates Old Trafford. Despite a decent start from England, it's Pakistan who are very much in the ascendancy. We'll get the thoughts of a very excited former Pakistan bowling coach Azamamamud and from Michael Vaughn.

We'll hear from Joffa Archer, who took three wickets, and Pakistan's batting style today, Sean Massoud. And we'll find out why Pakistan and cricket board chairman Esen Marni believes England should have no issues touring the country.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. And the close of play of the second day of the first test match between England and Pakistan at Emirates Old Trafferts. He's England in a lot of trouble on a day in which 12 wickets fell for 279 runs. England finished the day on 92 for 4

so the 234 runs behind Pakistan's first inning score of 326. We'll go through that in a second but to begin with England's reply began badly with burns out to the fourth ball of the innings. Elbow W to the left arm quick bowler Shahina Fridi for just four runs. Dom Sibley, Elbidavli to the metronomic Abbas

for eight. That was 12 for two. Twelve for three when Stokes was bowled by Abbas for a duck batting well out of his crease. A ball it just held its own and beat the outside edge. 12 for three in the sixth over Well, Root and Pope put on 50 with Root taking 22 balls to get off the mark. He made 14

from 58 balls. We tried to cut a ball that was too close to him from Yasser, the leg spinner, and was caught behind of the bowling of Rizwan. So, from that moment on, Pope has breezed relatively to 45, is played very smoothly from 67 balls, and Butler

is 15, not out. 92 for 4. She mentioned, Mohamed Abbas, took two for 24. in that innings. Pakistan, well, it was a funny old day. They lost Barbara Azam to the sixth ball of the morning, caught by Routov Anderson for 69, so no addition to that. And shortly afterwards, Assad Shafik was caught by Stokes' second slip off broad for seven. So that was 150 for four. And Pakistan innings, really, was going absolutely nowhere. Mohamed Rizwan was caught by Butteroff Wokes for 9, 176 for 5, in England rubbing their hands. But then a really positive partnerships and terrific running between

between the wickets of Shadab Khan, who really did wind up the field as bringing them in, beating them with fine strokes. He put 105 on with Shah Mastud, the opening batsman, who of course gave two chances yesterday on 45. Eventually Shadab Khan was caught by route off Bess at midon for 45, and then the innings rather subsided. They lost the last five wickets for 45. The ninth man out was Shah Mousud for an excellent 156 from 319. Bowling-wise, Stuart Broad finished with 3 for 54.

Joffre Archer, 3 for 59, 3-26 all-out, England 92 for 4 at the close of play. Lots to digest with Azamamud and with Michael Vaughn. Where do we start? That's not with you, Azar. I reckon you've had a good day there. You'd be delighted with that. I'm very happy with that. I think start of the day belongs to first session belong to England,

and they were brilliant with the ball. And after that, you know, I was... can't get my head around when five hours ago and two spinner was bowling for a new ball. You're playing with four fast bowlers and you should be bowling that and they allow Pakistan to get settled and I thought

Shadab Khan and Shan Masood was very special and they put pressure on the bowlers and after that you know they build up a really great partnership and then the last session was especially for the bowlers and they were absolutely brilliant

well we saw the full range there There's just one wrist spinner, of course, Shadab, who we haven't seen yet. But that pace bowling attack, it's got everything. Yeah, they got everything, you know, like different angles. Shah-Shah, Fridi, bowled 85 miles an hour, swinging the ball both ways, you know, asking question all the time. And then Mohammed Abbas, he's not as quick as the other two, but he got enough skill and ability to get any person out on any...

pitch he got tenfer in Abu Dhabi so that's the skill shows from this point yeah yeah well Michael what do you make of that as a day it began so well with Baburazam out in the first over and well even after that England were shipping away but

it did all go wrong for them around about lunchtime yeah I mean full credit to Pakistan they're a tremendous cricket team to watch they've got high class players with a huge amount of skill I always felt this series was going to be a step up from the West Indies series from the skill levels, the discipline, the expertise that Pakistan were going to throw at England

and winning the toss batting. I look back to Jason Holder bowling again in that third game. I just think against this England side, nothing surprising. When the opposing team bat first and get a decent score, 326, not a massive score, but it's a decent score. It's a common trend aggers. We've got to be honest, when England bowl first and when they have bowed first continuously over the last three or four years and it's been under Joe Roots leadership and they struggle to read the play and they have moments like as I mentioned about the two spinners bowling just not realising that moment was so important for the test match

and had to win that moment and you go back to yesterday after lunch they just have an hour's play where you're looking at what's going on the balls falling to all parts and just seem to lose focus when they bowl first and then the batters as soon as they get put under pressure you know with half a score on the scoreboard before they've taken guard let's be honest how we sit up here and we go they will lose wickets

they're going to lose wickets it's just a common trend with the England's test match team if they bat first I have every confidence that they'll go out when they bat and play okay and I have more confidence

when they get the ball in hand that they'll read the situation and Joe himself as a captain will be reading the game better knowing that his team have batted whether it's because he's batted on it and the team have batted on it

and they know the kind of lems that are hard to face by the time they get the ball in hand but it's been a common trend for a while now that when England bowl first and then bat second, both disciplines don't seem to be able to operate the conditions as well as when they bat first. It's strange, isn't it?

And it's the first test of the series, so I don't know. But it's it because they don't know when to a tackle, just to just go dry as they call it these days and just bolves and maidens and get some control because having really kept things so tight in the morning and taken those wickets, they've yielded 20-odd runs in those five overs that we're talking about. That's really the point, isn't it?

It just absolutely, like a pressure cooker, let the steam out. Yeah, and the same thing happened yesterday after lunch. It's just, I don't know, I mean, the basics of the game is you have to make sure that you win the first 20 minutes of every session, and then you can control that session from there, and how do you do that? You generally start with your best two bowlers, if you possibly can. If the knacker from bowling before lunch, when you kind of go, right, who are the next best two? You know, to start with two spinners and to kind of create this momentum for Pakistan towards that, second new ball, you know, that was a tactical maneuver that, I don't think it's at this stage

costing them the test match, but I do see some maneuvers out there that, you know, are moving the momentum of the test match within 20, 30 minutes of play. And at this level, against the team like the Western as you get away with it. And it's not being, you know, disparaging towards the West Indies side. They were great to watch and they came over here and play. But Pakistan are at a level up. And then you go to an India side or an Australia side, they'll blow England away. You know, the talk of, you know, I've heard in the week,

or England want to be the number one test team in the world again, they're miles off it, Aggers. Absolutely miles off it. I mean, they've got some quality players, they've got a huge amount of skill, but, you know, you've got to say that tactically they get it wrong quite often, and, you know, this question marks over a few areas of the team, and to start talking now about being the number one team in the world, miles off.

Yeah, okay, that's interesting. It's the cost of every run, I think, isn't it? and that 326, people might be saying, well, why are you worried about that? That's only a middling sort of a score or a first inning's of a test match. But actually, we've seen quite a lot happening out there. And that's the point, isn't it, with Pakistan unable to bowl last one imagined. Yes, not 326, not the massive score. But I know the Pakistan mindset, you know, whenever we come to England,

we saw, okay, 300 in first inning, and then we got bowlers who can get 20 wickets. And we saw a lot of spin. We haven't seen Shadab Khan yet. But I think England got a trend for the last three, four series, lost the first test match and win the series. I hope not that the case to the rest of the series. But I think one thing I would say, you know, I haven't seen Jafar Archer because he bowled the first spell

before lunch, and we haven't seen him until before tea time. I think that's where you want your best bowler to bowling at Shadab Khan at that time. I totally agree. they allowed them. I wanted if he was fit. He's sort of hitting 82, 83 miles an hour and he had his hands on his hips quite a lot. Well, I think we're going to speak to him shortly. Maybe that question I'll be asked.

But, you know, there's been two days of cricket that Pakistan have been great. They really have. You said it on the first morning. We were just sat here watching them warm up and we both looked. We went, they're on it this lot. They look like a well-old unit. They're running between the wickets. I've not seen the team do that before.

Just tap and run and really frustrate Anderson and Broad and bring the fielded in and there was overfrows. You know, so Pakistan so far, I've come here. They've clearly done a lot of thinking. Eunice Khan, the batting card. I don't know what he writes on his pad, but he writes every single ball something. I don't know what he's up to, but it's working.

And, you know, they just look, you know, got Wachar Yunis, you can see him working with the bowlers. You've got Mistbar. He's in and around the team. You've got Mushtak who, if you've working with the spin bowlers, and they look like a quality team. I mean, I think they're batting. They'll be under a huge amount of pressure over the course of the next a couple of games as well because when you look at Shaddaub at 6 and Shadab at 7 you know it's light very similar to England when you look at England with Chris Wokes at 7 so I think both batting units have got some quality players and some fragility around it but this is a very common trend of the England side

talk Josh Butler a second because he's a poor game behind the Stubbs we know what his batting record is last nine tests average 22 lost 17 tests average 24 if if England continues to play four bowlers and Stokes is kind of a, maybe just one that you can use every now and then. Otherwise, what I'm saying is that the wicket keeper is going to bat at six. Could you see folks batting at six? I mean, if Butler's place really is under that sort of pressure, do you know what I'm saying? Well, yeah, no, the keeper's got, it's seven for me in this England team. That's why I look at it and say, how can you be number one in the world

when you haven't really got an out-and-out high-class spin bowl? there's question marks over the keeper you know two senior outstanding bowlers how much longer can they go on you know two or three of the top order you look at the technical side of the player of Rory Burns and Dom Sibley

you know as a scene bowler as aren't you yourself Jonathan when you're seeing those techniques moving over to the off stump you just know the ball that nips back I mean I would have sleepless nights facing Mohammed Abbas I'll openly admit that and I think Dom and Sibley will have quite a number

over the next three weeks of sleepless night, knowing that that ball's going to be way away, away, boom, he's going to knit one back. It's going to be so hard. He might have to come out of his crease, which England tried to do, but that ruins your rhythm as a player. I found it so hard to do that because you're just ruining your rhythm

of the way that you play. You look at Ben Stokes, he came out of his crease by a metre, and then he gets a good one, but he's playing on the move. He's not playing with any kind of stability or balance. So already Mohammed Abbas has got England thinking of doing something different before they'd really face a delivery, which tells you that they've done a bit of research,

and they feel that batting outside of the crease he's going to nullify LBW and bold. Well, he got an LBW and he got a bold. So that tactic didn't quite work today. And the keeper stands up anyway. Correct. It's you know, the England test team they're great to watch in a way because

you're never quite sure what you're going to get but now we do know what we're going to get when the opposing team bat in English conditions. I think Stefan Shelts, who works with the BBC read a stat out of it. If the opposing team come here and get over one 18, the first innings back and first.

I don't think England have won for many, many tests in this country. So always back first against England, I would suggest. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Let's get some reaction now from the England camp. And we can hear from Joffra Archer with Henry Moran. First of all, how do you read the match situation? Pretty even at the moment. Obviously, the new ball did a bit first yesterday,

and then it got a bit easier to bat on. It's pretty much gone the same way again. here today. Obviously, Josh and Puppy, you know, made it a lot easier than the first 15 overs and hopefully they can go on in about as long as possible tomorrow as well. And presumably the evenness disappears of that partnership is broken early tomorrow. Well, not really because then we got Babai pretty early this morning as well. So, you know, if it does, then it would pretty be even again. But hopefully we can do one better, you know, and put on a really big partnership tomorrow

and that pretty much just sets us up for the day ahead. Three wickets for you. bowling is at the moment. I bow well last series as well just in getting the wickets. I thought I bow well again and probably was really lucky to get those two late of time. But, you know,

as long as I'm bowling, obviously everyone wants wickets, but as long as I'm bowling, well, that's enough for me. Wickets will come. Cricket. Usually evens itself out so, you know, I'll just be patient. This series has got two stellar seam attacks, two of the finest in the world. How exciting is it to be a part of that?

part of it where you're polling but I don't think anyone would like to well obviously you'd like to score some runs on it as well so I think everyone will have a part to play because you said that the bowling is so good I think every single run

will be crucial the week that you spent in that hotel watching on how tough was that during the West Indies series um well it is what it is and I'm just glad that it's over, you know, I'm back here, playing

and doing what I love, so, you know, that's the most important day at the moment. And just finally, social media-wise, you're one of the more outspoken people on social media. Did you enjoy that interaction and speaking to people on Twitter and responding to things? Well, yeah.

Obviously, you start to watch what you say, because, you know, people can spend things totally out of proportion as well, so, you know, I'm, you know, try to get a little bit sarcastic with it. as well but you know i think a lot of people use social media as we have seen things and getting away with it and just like the guy last night so as i actually says i mean he um he made his

profile private very quickly so i mean if you're going to say something at least stand by what you say and you enjoy you know having that come and standing up for cricketers and sports people that perhaps don't respond as often as you do yeah you do and to be honest like after i sent the tweet out, I feel the guy's actually got behind me on what's that and stuff, I didn't even realize that they had seen it, even thought he was one. He was quick to show me that the guy even follows him as well,

so, you know, I think we really got to stop people from, you know, getting to be with a lot of stuff, and, you know, can't say it all the time. Everyone has their own opinion, but if I don't agree with their opinion, I'll say it. The TMS podcast, from BBC

Radio 5 Live. So interesting thoughts on Joffra Archer with Henry Moran. Henry also spoke to the Pakistan Centurion, Sean Massoud. Well, Shan, many congratulations. Three hundredth in three test matches. How do you rank that innings that you've played over the last couple of days? I think in terms of the contribution, the situation, the scenario, not having played any test cricket for three months.

And then everyone going through COVID, not the easiest of times for everyone around the world. It's coming back without any match practice, I think, on the surface, yes, it feels that it's been a great achievement, but you have to give credit to the management who's put in a lot of effort over the five weeks, to the 29 guys who've made sure they haven't had any issues with each other. I think we had a good five weeks and leading into the test, and we felt well prepared. And we thought that we had some as batsmen. We face some tricky conditions in Indhabi, but I think it's set us up in Goodstead,

the way Barber batted yesterday, the way Shadab batted today. So I think it's helped us the five weeks that we've had under our belt. Talk me through the emotions of reaching that hundred, particularly considering the tour last time over and coming back and performing like that. Look, I think cricket, again, it's a funny game, but it's a game that allows you second chances, and that's the beauty of sport.

like any other sports. So again, I'm not, I wasn't putting myself under any pressure. I just wanted, I feel lucky that I'm representing my country at this stage. We're playing the game we love when the world is facing a global pandemic. And we're playing in this beautiful ground. So we were just grateful and there was no sort of reasons to put ourselves under any pressure. Again, it's a world-class bowling attack. You've got two guys who've taken 500 plus.

wickets and that speaks volumes for themselves. They've got guys that are sitting outside that are good enough to fit in any international squad. So again, the thing was just to put yourself in the moment and then just capitalize on anything you got, stick to a game plan. And I think that that stage went quite quickly after lunch when I got from 77 to 100. So I think it was all the hard work that was put in those 200 odd balls before that. It was exciting enough watching up in the commentary boxes the early stages of the England innings. What was it like there in the middle? We were very excited in terms of our bowling attack.

I think the three paces, they complement each other very well, and then they put the ball in the right areas, and then they got some purchase of the wicket. So we're excited. Hopefully this is a bowling attack that serves Pakistan for a long time. In terms of the match situation, couldn't have gone much better today for Pakistan. It's a good day, but again, England bat deep down.

They've got some great batsmen. to follow even now. They've got good records. Even when we played here last year, they ran us around the ground. So, again, we can't be complacent. We have to back this day with another day. That's the beauty of test cricket.

Things change pretty quickly. It's a game of five days. And we have to make sure that we're on the ball and we produce performances that back a good day up as well. And just finally, you spoke about the five weeks you've had, the 29 players that you've been with. There will be tough times, of course,

in an environment like this. but how much has it brought you together as a side? I think that's important. And even with the test side, there's been this. We had a tough Australian tour together. When we came back to Pakistan, we drew the first test against Sri Lanka. And the second test, we got out cheaply

on a pretty flat batting wicket. But the camaraderie between the boys, there weren't any fingers pointing between ballers and batsmen. I think we fought it out. Ballers got Sri Lanka out on 280 and then the batsman backed it up with four centuries from the top four. it all started there. So I think as a test unit, we've been quite close. We enjoy each other's performances. And having the T20 guys and all the other guys, the reserve guys as well, the 29

people have been quite close together. And it's been a wonderful atmosphere that's been created by a wonderful management as well. A joy to watch you perform the last couple of days. Many congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. At lunch today I spoke to the PCB chairman Eshen Marni about whether England should tour in Pakistan once again the chances of them playing India soon and first whether the players needed much persuasion

to come and play in England. There was some nervousness particularly among the players and the families. We've seen our CEO did a great job in speaking to them, giving them the assurances, working very closely with the ECB's team. to provide the level of assurance that made the players comfortable. You know, it's very tough for young players to come and then we can find to a hotel.

That was going to be another challenge. I think we had one player whose family was nervous and he pulled out. But apart from that, everyone else had been prepared to come. We had some issues. You know, you know, in Pakistan and India, in fact, you get these joint family systems where you have the whole family, siblings, parents, grandchildren living together. So it's this concept of social distancing, not having a social contact becomes a serious challenge. And in the first round, we had, you know, about nine or ten of them who tested positive.

So we had to run through further steps of testing with them. But they're all here, which is a great thing. And it's been a unique experience for the players to be, while they've been confined in a hotel, in a bio bubble, the ECB has been fantastic. They've gone out with the way to make them comfortable. I have nothing, I heard nothing but praise for the arrangements. And that's helped, but my big concern is that you've got, you know, when you're coming into play test matches, you need to have the match fitness, you have to have the exposure to actually playing in a match competitively.

Our boys played two matches between themselves. One of them got interrupted by Rayne quite badly. So perhaps a little unprepared from a playing perspective. But they're young, they're very enthusiastic. We've got a great support team with them. So it's great to be here. Now, inevitably, there's been talk here about a quid pro quo, if you like, and some pressure from the Pakistan cricket board

as a result of their coming here and helping England out to keep their cricket fluent and obviously cash rich, as it were, as opposed to being bankrupt, which could have happened. And therefore, it'd be obviously persuasive. from Pakistan, therefore, for England to tour there. Now, where do you stand with that, Isan? I mean, is that a fact? I wouldn't use this series as a leverage in any way.

Pakistan is safe. We've now had Sri Lanka back. We've had Bangladesh back. We had a fabulous MCC team back with Kumar Sanghaara. He captained the side. And he was actually on the bus that was attacked in 2009. There cannot be a better endorsement of that, of where we are in Pakistan today.

Yes, there has been some nervousness by countries, but I do not think there will be any reasons for England not to come in 2021, end of 21, 22 when they're due to come. How would it work? Here we have the bio bubble, sort of protection against a pandemic, obviously, a virus. How would it work, or how could you see it working in Pakistan where it's actually a security issue. Can you say it amidst of a lockdown again?

No, it's not a lockdown at all. What we have done is, certainly for the first couple of teams that came, yes, had a very tight security, like head of state level of security. Yes, in hotels, controlled going out. But by the time the MCC got there, they wanted to get out and play golf. And I think they played golf virtually every day they were there.

you know, some of the team. They went outside seeing, they went to restaurants. Mike Lathen was there to do a program. He was out on, you know, in the evenings on his own. Well, he was taken out. But he went to restaurants. He got around. And I'm sure if you asked him,

you would say he didn't feel any way, sort of uncomfortable. So I think, you know, we've got a still got nearly, two years before England come. And I hope that by then things that have really settled down where there'll be more freedom of movement. I just don't think there's the need

for the level of security we've been giving the teams. In fact, some of the Sri Lankan team complained to us that they wanted to go out, go shopping, just get out of the hotel. So it's a balance, but you know, you can't take risks to begin. with, but as the levels of comfort by the people who are visiting Pakistan improves, a lot of this has got to do with the perception of the country. People, when they come to Pakistan,

are pleasantly surprised that what they had thought they would get and what they actually see are two different things. I suppose part of the issue is that with an England team, there's a big media pack and there are travelling supporters and you know they would want to come the media would want to be there so it's a big undertaking

for all that number to be secure I don't think this concept of what is secure is really an illusion take New Zealand recently it was unfortunate

the Bangladesh team was there lucky they weren't in the mosque when the attack took place you will get incidences like that around the world you're not getting them in any major city in Pakistan today Is it a good thing

or frustration for you that England have toured Bangladesh for instance when there was a big security issue there and of course Sri Lanka as well I mean you know England England have travelled in the past to areas that you might not necessarily feel are secure. So is that a good sign for you or is it frustrating that you understand what I mean?

No, no, it's not frustrating. There was a time when even I would have said don't come right now. But I honestly believe, and the MCC is an endorsement of that, that they felt so comfortable being in Pakistan. and we had one, we've had the chief executive, we've had Tom Harrison from England, we've had, with a board director who was a former security man, I think police force.

When you saw the security arrangements and the safe city projects we have in Pakistan, where, for example, in Lahore, they've got sort of camera monitoring movements through the city, not around the cricket grounds. His reaction was that if we had things like this England, there wouldn't be any street crime. So we have the infrastructure in place. One thing is clear. I mean, I will never,

I'd try none of us would ever want anyone to come if we weren't comfortable hosting them. But I'm also very clear we're not going to play in third countries. We either play in Pakistan or we won't play. You see, that's quite a determined stance then, isn't it? So if, so you really are, I mean, the UAE has done its bit as far as you're concerned. It's hosted you through that crisis, but it's now time, you think, ready, that if you don't come to Pakistan, well, but that, the games won't take place. Look, the price we've paid for UAE, not only in financial terms, that's been very high.

And yes, on financial terms, it cost us about 50,000. $1,000 per day extra over what we've paid in Pakistan. But far more important is for our players to have the home crowd behind them, to actually play matches within Pakistan with that sort of support. For our youngsters, if you're going to spread cricket in the country and make that strong, the youngsters and the kids have to come and see their matches and see cricket being played. And I'll tell you, the hunger is astronomical. We, on the, in the Ravel Pindi match against Sri Lanka, three days had been virtually washed off last day.

No chance of the result, we had a full crowd. That's the hunger. When Kumar brought out the MCC team, they played at the Gaddafi Stadium, you know, a club side, playing against one of our Pakistan Super League franchisees, one of their teams. And we had about 18,000 people. That's the passion in the country. country. But unless we capture it and unless we actually are able to get that out to our young people, eventually cricket will get diluted by other sports. So we cannot afford to do that. It's

important for the development of the game in Pakistan that we have cricket in Pakistan. Yes, we have to make certain arrangements to make sure that players feel comfortable, which we'll always do. So it's not as, you know, it's not saying you take it or leave it for no, no grounds. And we've had one of the European Anglo-Saxon, I would should say, chief executive and presidents who came out, at the end he was asked, what do you think? He said, I can't think of a reason not to come. What do you think the impact of the coronavirus is going to be on international cricket. I mean, you know, the whole global

structure of it. We've already lost the World T20 of course in October, November. Well, you know, there are lots of those down the line, I suppose, and they'll move it back. But just generally, the countries being able to play against each other

and to keep to sustain the World Test Championship, of course, as final that's supposed to be next year, that the whole structure, how do you think it'll be impacted? It is good to be impacted. I mean, England have to pull out of the tour to Sri Lanka after actually having got there they had to come back we've had similar cancellations by other countries and what's going to happen is that all these tours that have been cancelled with sort of a bunch up they've got to be somehow worked back

into the bilateral series and it will not be possible for countries to do that easily and quickly the pandemic is increasing at a fast rate in parts of Asia It's getting better in some other parts of the world. Australia, we thought it was doing really well until Melbourne happened. But it's still better far, far ahead than some of the other countries. So I think it's going to, this is going to have an impact. And I keep, you know, I'm back at the ICC as representing Pakistan. And what I tell people is that it's going to take three years to catch up with yourselves,

get your tours back, get your finances sorted out. So it is a major challenge for countries. For some of them, it's a critical challenge, you know, for the very fact that some of them literally depend on these iconic to us, England to the West Indies, big one always, England to Sri Lanka, big one always. Because it's not only, you know, the income they get from the game, it's the Balmy army turning up, the hotels, the restaurants, all of that. contributes to the country and to the game in a particular country. So it's going to take time. I think what the members have to do, like we've done here for England,

is to go out of one's way and make sure cricket carries on and make sure that no country is sidelined where they cannot play enough cricket to sort of continue to be playing cricket. Yeah. What about you and your neighbours? Yes, and I've got to ask you about that. You haven't played together in a bilateral series for years. Do you see any light at the end of that tunnel?

It's very sad because when you look at the ratings of an India-Pakistan match is higher than any other match in the world. I would expect somewhere between 200 to 250 million people who watch that match. And the numbers are amazing. We have a very simple approach in Pakistan. and we're not going to let politics come in our game. For some reason, our neighbours use that.

They think we're using it as a lever, but we don't engage in that. So we're not going to ask them to play with us, but if they are willing to play and want to play and approach us, we'll approach it with an open mind, totally open mind. We play them in the ICC events. We play them in the Asian Cricket Council events. We have no issues with that.

The only loser is the fan, and the fan engagement that you lose out of it, is just, it's very sad that that doesn't happen because people are passionate. And the sad thing is when you have cricket and people-to-people contact, there's no better way of improving relations between countries. Yeah. Is there any dialogue at the moment at all between you and the BCCI? Not really, because the BCCI itself is. in a sort of flux at the moment.

They've had a change of board. People who are there are still waiting to see whether they're allowed to carry on by their Supreme Court because officially their terms have expired and they have asked for the courts to change the system so they can stay on. So I think until they have certainty, there's no point of speaking to them

because they might be in transition. Yeah. So to be clear, you would happily send a Pakistan tea. to India or you'd be happy to host an Indian team within Pakistan. Absolutely. From a cricketing perspective, we have no problem. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. That's Aishan Marni, the PCB chairman.

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