Test Match Special - Day 3: England back in it?

Episode Date: August 7, 2020

Jonathan Agnew presents from Old Trafford where England have fought back to give themselves a glimmer of hope of winning the 1st Test against Pakistan. The home side took four wickets for 27 runs late on, including two for Ben Stokes, to leave the tourists on 137-8 - a lead of 244. Earlier Joe Root's side, who were 92-4 overnight, had managed to reach 219 in their first innings. Aggers is joined by Michael Vaughan, Azhar Mahmood and Vic Marks to review the day, while Henry Moeran interviews England batsman Ollie Pope. We also hear from film-maker and historian Anwar Akhtar about the importance of cricket in the British-Pakistani community and there's an interview with 83-year-old Old Trafford steward Stan Pritchard about his rapport with West Indies captain Jason Holder.

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I'm Jonathan Agnew. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast, looking back on a highly eventful third day of this opening England-Pakistan test at Emirates Old Trafford. Pakistan are probably still favourites to win, but England's bowlers have given them a decent chance. To come, we'll get the thoughts of Michael Vaughn,

Azamamamud and Vic Marks, and we'll get reaction from Olli Pope. We'll speak to the Manchester filmmaker, Anwar Ahtar about his love for Javid, Biaandad, and will meet the 83-year-old Old Traffat. Stafford Stewart, who's become famous for giving advice to the West Indies captain, Jason Holder. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So we'll begin our review of the day, the third day of this first test match between England and Pakistan at Emirates-Old Trafford.

It's fascinating poised, too, because at the close, Pakistan are 137 for 8 in their second inning. so they lead by 244, having bowled England out for 219. Giving themselves a lead of 107 by having done so. The men out today for England, Pope for 62, Butler, very patient, 38 from 108 balls. Bess for one, Wokes for 19, Archer 16, Anderson last man out for seven, leaving Stuart Broad scoring. Well, who knows how useful that 29 from 25 balls might be. dropped on 23. He has a Shah with the wrist spinnet, took four for 66,

and he and Shedab Khan, who took two for 13, one imagines or with a main threat for England tomorrow, but don't discount the fast bowlers either. Sheena, three, you took one. Hubbard Abbas, two, and Nasim Shah, the young fast bowler, took one for 44. So, having scored the small matter of 156 in the first inning, Shah and Massoud was promptly trapped down the leg side,

caught by Butler off board for a duck. That was six for one in the six. second over. Aber Daly was out for 20, caught by Wokes, down at Deep Square Lake, off Bess. Babrazam made just five. Asa Ali took a long time to get off his pair. He was LBW to Wokes for 18. A lovely spell from Wokes at. He only bowled five overs. And that's quite interesting to wonder why, actually. We took two for 11 in that spell. Then Rizwan was Elb W to Stokes, Shadab Khan, Elbw to Broad. And this and that last few minutes there. Shane Friedi was caught by Burns

fending off that nasty bouncer from Stokes for two. So, 137 for 8. The target Michael Vaughn is 244 at the moment, 2.45 to win. What do you think? Well, it's been a really good test match to watch. It's had mainly Pakistan on top

for the majority, and then England have just fought back in that session, whether that's because Pakistan played badly, whether it's because the pitch has started to do more. I'm not too sure yet, but one thing's for sure patting on this wicket last, I don't think it's going to be easy at all. And the two-fifty-odd chase, which you think it's going to be,

is going to take some effort. You know, you look back to last year and Hedinley and obviously Ben Stokes, his remarkable innings. That pitch at Hedley... Different pitch. Yeah, it tends to... It did kind of quieten down. I don't think this one will do. It's going to spin a huge amount tomorrow,

but it's possible. But you have to say, I look at actually England's field in this week. You know, I look at the field. I think the bowling at times has been very good. They fought hard with the bat, particularly this morning where I thought Olly Pope and Josh Bullock

to survive that first hour when the ball was nipping all over the place and they played and missed they showed a huge amount of temperament and technique and the right kind of mentality for test match cricket put catches, fumbles in the field

miss stumpings again today Jimmy Anderson drop one Ben Stokes drop one there's been overfroes England haven't quite looked on it in the field and I think at the end of the week it might be that we look to an England side that played okay

but catching and the field and may let them down but it's been a great test match I think we'll get an ending tomorrow one way or the other but full credit to both teams they've given us great entertainment down we go to the outfield

and join Henry Moran with Ollie Pope thank you very much Agas Ollie your reflections after that dramatic day I think coming sort of well I've only just walked off the pitch but I think that bowling couldn't have gone as well as we could have basically

we bowled really nicely we backed it up in the field but frustrating not to get slightly closer to them with the bat but they bowled nicely this morning and yeah the wicket's offered a little bit for both seam and spin how has that wicket been out there because it's looked very tough watching on from the commentary boxes it's offered for the seamers as it always does a little bit in England

but I guess it's not your typical English wicket it's spun from sort of the get-go and bounce quite a lot as well so it's not it hasn't been easy facing the spin obviously they've got their two leggies it's not got its challenges. But yeah, we're going to have to find a way to cope with that tomorrow and the day after. The Pakistan bowling attack, is it the variation that makes it such a challenge and such a fearsome prospect? Yeah, I think they've got a little bit of everything. They've got sort of a bass with their skills. They've got the pace of the young lad Nassim and then

the left armour as well with Shaheen. So they have got the bases covered. But as it is with any new series, facing new bowlers, once you sort of get used to their style of style and their action and what they try and do with the ball, things will get easier for us badders. A word on Josh Butler, that was a gutsy performance this morning. Yeah, he played nicely, and he's showing great signs during that whole West Indies series. And, yeah, he's batting really nicely at the moment. I think he's sort of found a really good tempo. It's obviously a shame that we couldn't extend that partnership for longer,

but no, I think he's playing really nice at the moment. You'll have sympathy for the challenges keepers can have, and he's had a tough game, I think it's fair to say so far. Yeah, absolutely. It's not easy, especially standing up, keeping on that wicket. And with that extra spin and bounce, these chances aren't easy. I guess with those nicks, I guess sometimes it's just a matter of will they stick and will they not. I guess if it was a slightly thicker edge, it was going straight to first slip.

I get that one in the first dig, but that's keeping. You do need a bit of luck standing up to the stumps, especially on a wicket like this. A lot of people have said that playing three test matches at one venue would be a benefit to England. Does that prove to be the case? Can you get fatigue playing at one ground? I don't think obviously we're in pretty strange times at the moment and these things don't happen a lot we know what we're dealing with with the conditions here

is slightly drier up here on the pitches I wouldn't say fatigue's got much to do with it we added a nice little four days off and the boys still have a lot of energy we're still buzzing around in the field at the end there but yeah hopefully we can just keep extending that throughout this series how many do you fancy you can chase down

as many as they set I think whatever I think last summer's shown whatever the target is chastable. It's not going to be easy on this wicket, but it's definitely, definitely manageable with the badders that we got in store. I thought you might say that. Thanks for time. Cheers, Ollie.

No worries. Thanks, Henry, and Ollie Pope. And I've got the ground staff are out there, sorting things out, ready for resumption tomorrow. Azamamamud is here. Now then, Azar. You're very confident this morning. How do you feel now?

Game is on. 244 ahead. on a fourth innings it will be tough but if Pakistan managed to get another 15-20 down that will be a big boost for them I thought they didn't play well

England bowed really well in this session and a couple of run-out was always been on the card you know the way Pakistan were running and bit of a hesitation there I thought it will be a great game of cricket I wondered if they knew exactly what they were trying to do in that innings

did you know what I mean do they just bat along or do we try and push on and be positive they seem to get a bit caught in between I thought yeah it was a strange shot from Abid Ali you know normally he played spin really well and he dominated spin not on the first hour I thought the ball before he got out

there was a bounce and a spin you know got in him two-minded and that's why I rush off the blood and he see you know he come down so he slog sweep over to the mid-vickered Filled it. So, and then, you know, Sean Massoud,

and it was an important wicket from Barbar Azam, you know, they're banking on this guy. In the end, Shadab and Rizwan played really well. I thought they were busy. They were doing what they need to do. But in the end, I thought England bowed really well. England gives a little bit chance, you know, bowling spinner a bit long.

That's why, you know, it was easier for these batsmen to bat against spinner at that time. He's funny quite tough, I think, Beth, Certainly, living with that pressure of being the only front-line spinner in the side, the ball is spitting. I mean, the one before Aberdeley did hole out really did bounce a lot, doesn't it? But I mean, I know he's playing at this level, you've got to do it. But it's a big education, isn't it?

Yeah. It's a one spinner. Yeah, not easy. The expectation. Young off spinner. Just kind of making his way at this level. But, you know, you're expecting to bowl better than we saw today. He bowled too many short balls than a full toss or two.

I think Pakistan could really assess that. I think body language tells you everything as a batsman and he was a bit flat and he wasn't getting it right. He was bowling too many short balls. They played him nicely off the back foot. I actually thought the fact that England had to turn to Ben Stokes exposed a couple of England's bowlers. I think it exposed Joffre Archer today.

Joffre Archer bowled five overs of what I'd called Gus Fraser. No disrespect. He was bowling. He was bowling 8 to 2 miles an hour, pitch up bowling. I don't think Joffer Archer is in the team to bowl that style of bowling. Throughout this summer he's averaging 85 miles an hour with the ball in hand and maybe he isn't this quick, quick bowler that we thought he was.

Maybe he's got quick spells in him and that means the team in England have to assess his style of bowler and what he's delivering on a consistent basis more than we thought he was going to be in all the talk of this 90 miles an hour and it's going to be fizzing past the batsman's noses on a regular basis. Maybe he can't bowl like that. And what I've seen in test cricket this summer,

what I saw a bit in the winter, he had a bit of an elbow problem and last summer in the ashes. He produced two really quick spells, one at Lords, I think one at Headingley. Other than that, he bowled around 83 to 86 miles an hour, and maybe he's going to have to reassess that and realise that he's not going to be this rapido bowler that he thought he was. And when you've got wokes, when you've got broad, when you've got Anderson,

you know, you do need an ex-fat. So that's why Stokes had to grab the ball out of the captain's saying, said, I need to do something here. You know, you could see that he was limping in. I hope he hasn't done damage to that hip, which was the reason why he couldn't bowl in the last test and it's the reason why he didn't ball in the first innings in it was the reason why England didn't really want to bowl him in this innings.

I hope he hasn't done more damage to suggest that the next test match at Southampton he won't be able to play a full part of the nor rounder because it's a big, big risk in a three-match series when your key player has to grab the ball out the captain's down and say, I will do a job and he gets two wickets. The other thing is Chris works bowl five overs.

Why? That was very odd. I didn't quite understand that either. But he's been the pick of the bowlers. Without any question, yeah. I mean, and the difference is that, you know, because Chris Wokes is such a great lad, you know, sometimes you've got Ben Stokes

stood next to the captain at second slip and he's going, give me the ball, give me the ball now. And maybe Chris Wokes is just playing the game. He stood at mid-off. He went to extra cover. And maybe he could have gone to the skipper and go, come on, give me the ball. You know, let me have another go

because he's bowling that while he looks like he's going to get a wicket with every single ball. So, yeah, great test match. I didn't quite agree with Ollie when he said that the fielding was been good. I don't think it has. I think it's going to potentially really cost England this week. Drop catches, fumbles.

They've not quite looked on it. The first time I think ever I've looked down and thought, oh, Jimmy looks old. You know, twice in the field today. I looked down and he got, you know, beat at mid-off through his hand, and he dropped that one at backward point. He just had one of those days. I hope and I hope it's just one of those days,

and he can come back from that. Yeah, but we're in for a good test. Someone, I mean, there will be batsmen that get low scores on that wicket. You know, with what we've seen. It's just can one player do what Ben Stokes did at Heddingley? And it'll take that. Michael, you've got to go to other duties, I think. So thank you for your contribution.

Here, the grounds were there again, whacking away at the footholes down at this end. I guess the one thought I had, Asa, about Pakistan's bowling, is that they do have all their bases cover. They've got pace. They've got left arm. They've got the change of angle. They've got Mohammed Abbas just teasing away there all the time.

They've got the two wrist spinners. but what they don't have, and if they do get a partnership going, they haven't got that spinner who just come on and just hold an end and string some maidens. Because all of those bowlers, perhaps not Abbas, but the others, they can leak runs. The two young lads, a bit of pressure on, the two wrist spinners. What do you think?

I thought talking about Abbas, you know, he's a more consistent bowler in the world cricket at the moment about his consistency. And Shaheen Shahfredi, we saw him, and we've been seeing for last year or so, you know, he's a pro-bowler. He can't, he don't give you anything there, you know. They can contain as well. Then you've got two spinner.

They have a massive part to play. Yes. And Nasim Shah, yes, he's a young, he's the guy you can say, okay, he will give you some runs. But the other two are very consistent with their line and length. And then the spinner, if they're spinner bowling on this pitch, especially looking at this, rough marks, a lot of rough to play around.

And we saw Shadab Khan today, you know, he will be a different thread because he can bowl googly, flipper, and we saw more bounce than Yasser Shah on his delivery because he's a tall bowler, and I think he will create a lot of doubts in England batsmen. It's obviously going to be dangerous if England try and play positively against the spin bowlers.

I was suggesting that it might... It will put pressure on those spin bowlers if they do concede some runs and wrist-spinners do give you some bare balls. And actually, if all you're going to do is prod around and try and defend and there are men around the bat, that he might get out anyway. So England's best chance might be to not play recklessly, obviously, not stupidly, but try and be positive against those two.

Maybe the captain has to take one off and bring another seam bowler back on again. Yeah, they have to take up attacking option because bowling at this pitch, you know, Yassir Shah, known for bowling round the stumps on the fourth inning than, you know, using that rough. rough but England have a player who can change the game no doubt about like Ben Stoke the play in Innings he played in

Ash's Test match one of the best ending you will ever see and they have the ability they have the skills you know Ollie Paul's captain himself Joe Root they have the players but you know under pressure scoreboard pressure if Pakistan managed to get extra 20 to 25 runs tomorrow morning

they will be happy bowling on the fourth innings they will be happy Victor's arrived What do you think Victor was a great game I think Pakistan will be favourites but England are in a better position than they were this morning

they've been dominated for nearly all of three days and somehow even in that last session things seemed to be going wrong for England there were some drop catches some poor bowling but they've got seven wickets in that session 250

on that wicket is a lot to get But you only need two players to play a significant innings and you are close. And I agree with what Azah was saying that you're going to have I don't think you're going to block your way to 250. Someone

or a pair of players you have to make the bowlers bowl badly and even test bowlers when the pressure's on and they're getting attacked successfully they're more likely to bowl you some free runs. So that will be, it's a fascinating

equation. Everyone's got a bat in their own way. We're not going to see Dom Sibley come down to Yasser and say, I'm going to hit you over extra recovery old boy. But everyone has to work out their own way, but I think for England to win that, someone's going to have to play a brilliant or two players will have to play

a brilliant, probably quite aggressive innings to make the opposition bowl poorly. Because if you're going to be, as you were saying, prodding against Yashir Shah who's confident, when he's confident, he hits his length all the time, the balls turning and you feel anything could happen.

And we saw the change even today. Once he got Joss Butler out with a straight board, but the other one had turned, there weren't so many bad balls. He was on top of his game. He sensed a wicket at any moment. He was in control. He was loving it.

But they're all human. I mean, Don Bess is far less experienced, but he struggled today. Did you feel for him a bit? I said the pressure of being the only spinner in the side and the ball spitting and bouncing. Yeah, of course, yeah. I mean, he is the only one there, and I mean, it's easy from up here, isn't it?

One thing you understand, you know, he's a young bowler. He's making his way to international cricket, and he was bowling against Pakistan because these guys are used to bowling spin. And two guys, you know, who I think was the best Pakistani player against spin, you know, Rizwan and Asa Sashafik, they are not tall, they use their feet really well, they pick the length really well. And they don't let you settle. They don't let you settle.

They play the sweep shot. And England have the player who can play a sweep shot and reverse sweep. And that puts you as a bowler. I thought, you know, like everybody talking about Josh Butler, you know, you never know. He might think that's his last last name of a test match, come back and have a positive impact and change the game. That's right. I mean, we saw him actually, Josh Butler in Sri Lanka. He came out.

Remember when it was turning there? In Canada. And he played. He scored 50, and I think about 48 were from either sweeps reverse or orthodox sweep. So he could change the game. Who knows? But the great thing is we turn up tomorrow and there are so many possibilities. As I say, Pakistan logically will be the favourites, but not by a huge margin because 250 is getable on any surface if a couple of players have a great day.

Which thing for me, as far as the whole series is concerned too, to see how the two openers fare against Mohammed Ababa. because he's just somebody who's just preying on the unusual techniques of Sibley and Burns. Yeah. And he could lay down a marker, I think, in this game for what comes. That's absolutely right. It's bizarre, isn't it? In our generation, probably, you would just look at all those fast bowlers. Nowadays, bowlers are terrified of facing a Mohammed Abbas,

who's got no great pace, but he just torments them with a perfect length. terrified of being LBW, and he can mesmerize. So I think, again, you've got to look to be positive and not be dominated by him, because if you let him bowl, he won't give you a run. One thing I will tell you guys about Mohammed Abbas, he might be 80 miles an hour, but he's off the pitch really quick.

I kept him, you know, every morning. So the guy's bowling in 90 miles an hour, and, you know, his ball is bubbling, and doing all sort of things. He's off the pitch is really quick. How does he do that, then? Just wrist. It's wrist behind the ball.

If you see, you know, like kissing, what you say, if you stand next to the river and throw the stone in there, you feel, you know, sometimes the stone goes in and sometimes, you know, it skits and goes like that. So a basketballing is like that, like Vasimakram used to do that. So it's a kiss, kissing the surface, and not dying the pace in it. It's a lovely image, though, isn't it?

Yeah. So it's just, you know, like wrist behind the ball and backspin of the ball. That's what he does really well. And that's why he beats the bat and here and there, you know, hitting on the 5 to 6 metre length, asking questions, challenging length for batsmen

and allow them to have, you know, both edges of the bat. Challenges, both edges of the bat. So that's what he always does that. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. As we know, sadly, supporters from Manchester or elsewhere haven't been able to come and watch this test match or indeed any international cricket this summer.

One of those who would love to have been here is the British Pakistani filmmaker, theatre producer and historian Anwar Ahtar. His film, Pakistan's best-kept secret, Lahore Museum, is currently receiving international acclaim. Anwar is from Manchester, he's a huge cricket fan, and of the Pakistani team. So was his sporting hero one of their legendary bowlers? No, actually.

I always fancied myself with Javid Mian. One of my first introductions to cricket, I guess is going back into, I'd have been literally about four or five now. We're going into the 80s, was the famous Javid Meandad Dennis Lilly incident, which caused massive palpitations in the British Pakistani community in South Manchester.

I used to work on Hyde and Ashton markets, and there were various summits of the Pakistani market traders there. And they were none too pleased with Mr. Lilly's behaviour. And that, I think, was my earliest memory of cricket. And then later the epic ashes battle, where both them came to the fore. And I remember many of the market traders were delighted, and there was lots of cheering and horns blaring as England retained the ashes. So those were my introductions, and then later that great Pakistani team of the 90s.

And I think for many British Pakistanis, there was a real coming of age, rights of passage, identity, kind of awareness of your parents and your grandparents' heritage that I think played out with that generation of cricket and also was the racial tensions at the time and many British Asians felt marginalised. Similar to the great Caribbean story

that was with that West Indies team it gave a lot of people pride, I think, in their heritage. Well, I wanted to ask about that, the importance of cricket in the Pakistani community is exactly that. We talk a lot, don't we, about it in the 1970s and early 80s, about the Afro-Caribbean community,

especially in London. You see scenes of people at the Oval and Lords and how important it was at a time when they were challenges. I mean, there still are, but they were very definite challenges. And those teams helped to give a real sense of pride to the African-Caribbean community. There's a similar thing play out for the Pakistani community. here in Manchester?

Yeah, I mean, it's a very similar narrative to that wonderful that was fire in the Babylon, that wonderful movie that told, you know, about that amazing Caribbean team. But I think with the British Pakistani experience, because our parents and our grandparents, our parents that came here were very quiet and low-key and quite a conservative community and they didn't really, and I think that community was obviously, and there was so much latent hostility, whether it was Norman Tebitt

or Bernard Manning or the kind of mood music of the time. And I think for a lot of British Asians, there was a kind of, whether it was the British Indian community with the brilliant capital dev or Wazi Makram or Waka Yunus. I think it's just about awareness of your identity and your heritage. I mean, I don't think it's got anything necessarily to do with patriotism or loyalty to a country. I mean, I'm a Mancunian born and bred.

I love my hometown. And, I mean, I've always been a huge, supporter of Manchester City Football Club and the definition of optimism that in the 80s and 90s, but I was a regular stalwart on the Kippax. And I didn't see any contradiction between that and cheering on Pakistan in the cricket because it's where I'm born and where I grew up in relation to my parents' heritage. And I think many British, Irish, you know, people have a similar thing. The diaspras have those kind of global links.

So I think it's very positive. And I actually, you know, many of my nieces and nephews support England, but they've got a soft spot for Pakistan. So it's not didactic. It's an emotional thing and a cultural thing. Slight difference, I suppose, between the Pakistan story and the West Indies story is that West Indies was so dominant for so long, those 15 years. And that fed into a particular generation.

And then the sort of, I mean, I don't want to call it a collapse, but it really is a stark contrast. the year 2000. West Indies side has really struggled. Now, Pakistan has done a different thing to its fans. It keeps on offering hope and real expectation. And obviously, like every sports team does, it disappoints its fans.

But it has always produced these great, great moments in a way that West Indies cricket hasn't been quite so reliable. We talk about Pakistan being unreliable, but actually they're sort of reliably unreliable, if you know what I mean. So does that sort of ensure that that, there's a continuity to that passion. Yeah, I think it plays into,

there's an identity issue around Pakistan and cricket. That means there's so much kind of cultural, emotional baggage channeled into the team. We put far too much pressure on the players. And also I think, you know, Pakistan's a bit like Argentina in the football. They can defeat themselves. You never know who's going to turn up, you know. On that day, there can be utterly brilliant. and another day they can just fall apart and be a shambles.

And often they can do both on the same day. So it really is that kind of roller coaster. And I think that's something about Pakistan the nation as well. It's something that, I mean, I actually talk a bit about cricket in the Lahore Museum. So we explore the kind of what does it mean to be Pakistani, what does it mean to be British Pakistani? And I think the way Pakistan plays cricket is very different from the kind of, it's changed now with, you know people like broad and kind of stokes but you know the old stereotype used to be Pakistan played it in a much more aggressive way whilst England was much more cautious and

conservative but I don't think that applies anymore this is a large theme of your work isn't it it's of the of how the British Pakistani identity can interact with the Pakistani Pakistani identity if I can for want of a more succinct phrase can you sort of explain what you're what you're looking at here yeah i mean i think what i'm trying to do dan i'm someone that spent a lot of time in pakistan but i'm a brit and my i suppose my value system the way my mind works the way i've been educated is very much in the sort of british kind of um traditions and so i'm always trying to work how how pakistan works what on earth's going on what makes this country tip, what makes this country survive, what are the relationships?

And as a Brit, I'm also trying to work out just how on earth the East India Company pulled it off. How did 200,000 people manage to basically colonise the country of 500 million, 400 million? I mean, how do the maths work, apart from anything else? And so, I'm part of that led me to exploring Pakistan's history and its relationship with Britain. and partly I'm always looking for reference points or landing points to understand the country and I became slightly obsessed with the story of Dara, the son of Shah Jahan and Mongol prince who was due to succeed the succession of the peacock throne and the more I looked at the story of Dara and Arunzaab the more it felt like that sort of

Charles I first in Cromwell or Mary Queen of Scots and Elizabeth moment as well that's where it all started that's where it all comes from we need to understand this and the thing about Dara that became really interesting for me was the Mongol dynasty is extraordinary because

rather like the most empires you know it was migrant arrivals of about 5, 6, 7, 8 million led by Timberlan who was a descendant of Genghis Khan and they conquered most of India

and before then the Muslim presence in India had been quite small scale around a chap called Ibn Kassi but what the moguls did like most successful empires it was multicultural it was I mean empires are always built by force but they had Hindu princesses Hindu judges Hindu councillors and they basically ruled by consensus and treaty and then there was a moment where Dara was about to inherit the throne of Shah Jahan

the Taj Mahal had been built. And Dara started looking at a kind of coexistence between Muslim Sikh and Hindu and kind of religious shared traditions. And he basically really spent time immersed himself in Hindu culture and Hindu traditions and became very close to the developing Sikh faith. And so if Dara has succeeded the throne,

there is a theory that the events of 1947 might have been very different. But Arunzab, his younger brother challenged him for Mastansev, is very orthodox. Islam is the supreme religion. Islam has the authority of a Sikh and Hindu. And the short version, the mother of all civil wars, you know, seven, eight battles. Dara won the first few battles, refused to kill his brother. Arunzab wins a battle and, you know, has Dara beheaded for apostasy. And for me, that was very personal. because many people put that moment down as the starting point of partition

and the horrors of 1947 and for me the film Lahore Museum it's about a lot of it is about partition and it's also a love letter to India it's about saying we can't have another 75 years in this conflict and so the Lahore Museum film is about trying to find those points where there was always going to be some division

in terms of autonomy and federal relations and regional relations. But I've spent a lot of time talking to the people that were around Jinnah and Nero and Gandhi when partition happened. And the idea was it was going to be federal. It was going to be like Scotland and England, not a border between Lahore and Delhi. I mean, that's like a border between Liverpool and Manchester on the East Lankth Road. And so the film, and it all plays into British Asian identity, you know, whether it's the sensitivities of Kashmir and,

so on. So it's exploring those issues through the arts. Is there anything perhaps that the British Asian communities, both Indian and Pakistani, by how they work together, and indeed how cricket working within that, can influence or shine a light on or help with relations between these two countries, which are really very modern constructs, aren't they? Only 75 years old. yeah it's such a difficult the dream the great dream is peace between india and pakistan because without peace there can be no stability in south asia we'll have another 75 years of this cold war catastrophe we're not going to deal with poverty we're not going to deal with the environmental challenges of global warming

you either spend on education or you spend on the military you can't you know spend all your GDP on both And so my message to whether it's British Indians, British Pakistanis, people of Muslim, seek Hindu Christian, put aside your prejudices and try and talk about how we come together in terms of peace. The challenge is, if you look at, say, Northern Ireland, when the Good Friday peace process happened, you're dealing with a country of 10 million people and two versions of the same religion, essentially Catholicism and Protestantism. In Pakistan, we're dealing on India, we're dealing with 1.3 billion people. three religions and a much less developed set of institutions around peace building and conflict resolution and a much more visceral attitude to populist politics and i think you know that the reason why we made the film was to give people a way into an educational format through arts and culture and history as to these these are the issues that need to be resolved and also if you want to understand the neurosis the kind of of a relationship between india and pakistan and why there has to be peace

why the two have to come together and I mean what's India named after where does the name India derived from the river I presume yeah the land of the Indus and I think 70% of the Indus is in Pakistan you know you know it's the same culture it's the same heritage

I mean it is I mean it's a very glib simplistic thing for a British Asian to say oh why can't we be like Scotland and England you know why can't we just work it out But I also think there's something quite beautiful, and just saying we've got to work it out. We've got to find a solution where the hostility stops.

And I think, you know, I'm not obviously his biggest fan, but the one thing Tony Blair got right was education, education, education. And peace building works through education. So we made the film about Lahore Museum, basically to tell the story of the amazing heritage and artists and mobile history and the shared religious traditions, but also in the hope that the film would get on to A-level history curriculum and politics curriculum.

And there's a lot of anger around heritage and diversity and Commonwealth and empire. And we were hoping the film would be a more gentle way of having that conversation. So I think you'll be, I mean, hopefully you can share the film and we can get the film out on social media. It's available on my Twitter feed or just search Lahore Museum, Pakistan's Best Kept Secret. But yeah, I mean, watch the film. share it and hopefully that may bring people together as well.

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. It's fascinating to hear from Anwar Ahtar and we wish him well with his latest film. Well finally there are many people behind the scenes to thank for helping us get test cricket on this summer. One steward in particular

at Old Trafford has been singled out by none other than the West Indies captain Jason Holder. Daniel Norcross took up the story at lunchtime today. There was an article in the Daily Mail just after the West Indies left these shores and Jason Holder gave a long, long interview in which he talked about a wide range of subjects,

including how the poorer nations, perhaps within test cricket, need to be helped by the ICC and similar and his experience of being here and what he feels the West Indies have been able to achieve and what they've done to help make cricket happen in this curious and truncated things. summer. But one particular element just

sprang out to us in this piece and it was a concerned gentleman called Stan, Stan Pritchard and he is one of the stewards here. He's been a steward for many, many years and we can see him when we're commentating as we look away

to the pavilion. There's a walkway that connects the hotel to the point and the players get to use this space to go through and have some leisure activity in the point and then come back again and Stan was there for the entire time that the West Indies

were here and he's here also while the Pakistan team is in situ and Jason Holder made a very special point of thanking Stan because he'd seen Stan every day and spoken to him every day and indeed they struck up such a good rapport that

Jason gave him a signed shirt and they chatted about tactics on a daily basis and we thought well we ought to get Stan in because He's a very, very entertaining character. He's 82 years old. He's been here for nearly four decades. And I spoke to him this morning, a bunch of things, really.

First, he told me just how long he has worked here at Old Trafford. 39 years this year. 39 years. And in that time, we've seen many players come and go. He's seen many unusual situations, but possibly none more unusual than the bio bubble. What do you make of that? it's rather funny you know it's something we're not used to

because we're always active looking after people and now we're not really looking after spectators at anybody we're all in positions making sure the grounds by all secure that's correct yeah

and you're doing a magnificent job at it now the reason we really want to get you down is because you developed a really good relationship with Jason Holder the West Indies captain tell us how and why that that happened? Well, I got put in a position where the players come out of their

hotel room across the walkway into the pavilion. And it started with good morning. It would be quite nice speaking to them. And that's how it happened. And we got into deeper, different conversations of the state of cricket, the state of the game. And each day would have a bit of a laugh

about how he was doing better. England are them and, you know, and it developed really, really well. Now, you started giving him tips, though, didn't you? Because, I mean, you know this ground so well. You started basically telling England's enemy how to win the game, didn't you? You should just say it's, being here for so long, you watch the wicket and you can tell how it plays. I mean, many mornings you'll get your might struggle to get a wicket. Same in the afternoon.

But come after tea for some strength. reason but as an example of that yesterday from half past three to six wickets fell yeah it was I mean it's extraordinary you said that to me yesterday you said

you look out for the post tea session wickets are going to fall and you know we saw it on we've seen it actually in the West Indies series that happened a fair bit that's correct yeah yeah he did have to tea yeah and the best time to bat's after lunch isn't it after lunch yeah after the first hour because with the covers being on

it can have moisture and it can sweat and it helps the quickest example Jimmy said hey first over wicket and it was another house so we got another wicket afternoon you've seen that wonderful

innings of masseuse wonderful innings 156 well it was superb wasn't it and he made most of those conditions after after lunch but you told me that you you said to Jason you've got a bat first an old trafford

and he didn't listen to you didn't it? No, no, no. You'll always say if you're back first you've a better chance within the game because you come second

and you lose right there you did they lost they lost wickets you know and they got a small token a small token

but it didn't take me advice you see no well he no he didn't did he yeah you know and he's probably regretting it but I want to get back a little bit

to the bizarre circumstances of the bubble because you get to develop really quite good relations to the players as a result because the West Indies were here for what 41 days was it out of 51 I think yeah I did the test matches which was sat up on my little perch and as I say I seen them

the England players I see it they're seeing them on the all the old lot on all talk to me which I think is very very nice you know you know and it makes good relations for the club it puts the club in a good light

and this is what is the thing we like to do here, put the club in a good light what Jason was particularly complimentary about

though is he said you know it was quite difficult being here for all that time because you know there's not a lot of variety when you come on a normal tour

you'll go around the country and you'll see different people but actually having you to talk to he said he was particularly grateful for because otherwise you get a bit stuck

don't you seeing the same players every day and it must have been very difficult for the players Did you sort of feel that a little bit That they were just in a bit of a rut Maybe having to go through that same sort of routine day after day Yeah because sometimes we're coming out

They were looking a bit bored You know which she was obviously bored with life Now seeing somebody different they could talk to They made it a lot nicer for them You know especially with Jason I could not believe how a nicer person and Jason was. He was absolutely superb.

I mean, for the captain of the West Indies to talk to a steward, you know, I mean, what, 20, 30 years ago, it was unheard of, you know. You were kept away from the players, you know, but now it's a sort of appreciation for,

you know, you look after them and, you know, everybody does what Jason does. You know, it's the first time in 39 years that's ever happened to me. I mean, the last time I did get a show, a Lancashire shirt was the on my eighth year's birthday two years ago

we had the party I arranged for the party in the hotel with all the other stewards and some of the lads and they all got me a signed Lancashire shirt which included Jimmy and Josh and co which I you know that's the other signed shirt I got yeah so just to be clear Jason gave you a signed shirt a West Indies shirt West Indies shirt, yeah, I had best wishes. Oh, thank you. Best wishes, Jason Alder. Oh, lovely. I was shocked. I was gobsmacked.

I couldn't speak for it, but, you know, when you give it me, because it was something I never, ever expected. All I'm doing is my job, what I'm paid for to do, was to make sure people come in and out who should be there. My job is a security. It is to make sure nobody can go in there. in the place, part of the hotel. So you're basically protecting them from them?

Basically, yeah, yeah. Check everybody's ID because you never know. Somebody could put a West Indies shirt on and come up and say, my West Indies, you know, we would, you know, but if you've got, you're past, which we all have, it helps out, you know, we know who's who. Thanks ever so much for joining us.

Where is the shirt, by the way? Is it prior to place? Do you wear it or are you going to display it? It's in the hard robot home on the hangar, a special hunger. You've got to put it on. Is it the right size? No, no, not really. I think Jason's a bit bigger than me.

It probably droop on me because of more broad shoulders. I'm only in medium, he's in Excel. Yeah, well, that is true. Stan, thanks every so much. Have a great day. Welcome, thank you. Cheers. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Well, what a character, 83-year-old Stan Pritchard. Now, you can watch highlights on today at the test on the BBC Eye Player or on the BBC Sport website. Check out BBC Sounds for more archive view from the boundary interviews. And we're back on air on Saturday morning at 10.15 on 5 live sports extra for the highlights half hour and 1045 also on Radio 4 Longwave. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.