Test Match Special - Day 3: No play, Dhoni retires and Ask Ramps

Episode Date: August 15, 2020

No play at The Ageas Bowl as bad weather wiped out the third day of the 2nd Test between England and Pakistan. Bad light, rain and a wet outfield prevented Pakistan resuming on their overnight 223-9. Jonathan Agnew and Michael Vaughan reflect on what might have been and a surreal day in Southampton which involved squash, playing the banjo and someone singing ‘Sweet Caroline’. They discuss the retirement from international cricket of MS Dhoni, with Michael explaining why he’s the best one-day captain he’s seen. Lastly, we take advantage of the lack of play to sit down with Mark Ramprakash to reflect on his career: who was his most awkward opponent, how could he join Surrey from Middlesex and which of the current England side could emulate his success on Strictly?

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Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast. Unfortunately, we've had no play on the third day of the second test between England and Pakistan, but we've still got plenty to entertain you on this podcast. In a moment, we'll reflect on M.S. Doni announcing his retirement,

and Mark Graham Prokash answers your questions. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. So, what a completely frustrating day. unusual to have a whole day, a whole day of test cricket lost to bad light. That's what's happened here. There's been very little rain since this morning. It has been really all about the light and the covers haven't come off all day. The pitch, well, it didn't see any fresh air at all. The roller didn't get near it. And what a absolute waste of a day. It feels for everybody

involved. Really, the players have been mooching about walking backwards and forwards from end to end. Some of the Pakistani one-day players, particularly doing some training, even I think the manager I saw doing a couple of laps wandering round and a quite expansive track suit. It's been that sort of day Michael Vaughn, hasn't it? It just feels utterly futile. Yeah, it's probably been, I would say, up there

in the top ten of the most surreal days I've seen at a cricket venue. I had a spell this afternoon on my balcony and the light was fine. The clouds were around but it got brighter. There was no rain. All the covers were on. The ground staff were to my left entertaining with a game of cricket

on the concourse. To my there was two members of the ECB team playing squash against the wall and further to Maraite you were playing your banjo with Phil Tuftanel singing sweet Caroline It was quite bad, isn't it? Yeah, I honestly stood on my balcony

and looked down and went, what are we doing? I know, I know. Particularly the ground staff. I mean, I know that it's difficult. There's been a bit of rain and the light's not great but I just don't think there's been any urgency. It just felt today as if from a very early stage it was accepted that there wasn't going to be any play because it's very, very rare

that when it's not raining that you don't see at least work being done on the covers and it's just getting ready but that hover cover has not moved all day and it has not, by any stretch of the imagination, been raining all day. It has been the light what done it and it's absolutely infuriating.

Is there any way that, I mean, the forecast that we got this morning was that it's going to be more of the same over the next couple of days. But tomorrow morning is a little bit brighter, but can you see any way there's going to be any result in this? I mean, you can play two longer days. They can play 98 overs. But is that enough?

I don't think so. I mean, I think the forecasts for a little bit more. You mentioned thunder tomorrow afternoon. I don't think Monday looks great. So I don't think there's going to be enough cricket, particularly when the precedent is now set that as soon as the light comes in, you know, around 5ish, 530, it's only clouds around. We're not going to be playing any cricket.

So I'd be amazed if there is a result, but you never know. I mean, the weather could surprise us tomorrow. If you get a full 98 overs, there's certainly enough in terms of movement, and you've had a full day and a half of the hover on the wicket. I'm sure it'll do even more. So you never, never know, but it's frustrating for everyone. And when you think the amount of effort and time and cost that everyone has put in to put this series on, to think that for the three days realistically, I think there's been obviously time when it's raining,

you can't play in the rain, but I think there's probably been 60 or 70 hours that could have been play with the light as it was, and it's just been a case of the umpires decided upon the precedent and the light on that first day, they have to stick to that, and every time it hits that, they're not going to play any cricket,

which is frustrating for everybody. Yeah, I was so looking forward to seeing that Pakistan attack. It really was. How would he bowl in these conditions? How would England's Oakmers cope with him. Did you? Yeah, he came down the stairs where we were doing a TV link And as you came down the stairs, I said,

Morning, Muhammad. I looked up and I said, you're looking forward to today? He said, yes. And with a smile, he says, yes, bowling. He knows exactly what this pitch has been offering. He's the perfect kind of bowler for this kind of surface. Yeah, we're going to see England bat, aren't we, at some stage? And, you know, even though it's going to be difficult for a result,

it's still, you know, test match cricket. What does he how the openers cope with him? How they actually go over? about the business of being so technically perfect against him, that it's going to really challenge those two? Yeah, that's the word, the technique's going to be absolutely spot on. You're going to have to judge length very quickly. You're going to have to be very precise in your foot movement.

That forward defence is going to have to be balanced, a great foundation. No question, you're going to have to play and miss it a few because he's that kind of bowler. Knocking and running probably would be my suggestion. and get down the other end to try and sit from the non-strikers then. I don't think he's going to be a bowler that you're going to crash to the boundary regularly. So you're going to have to try and play an old-fashioned game of attrition to see him off because, again, in these conditions, you'd think he's going to bowl, what, seven or eight with that new ball? So you've got eight overs of Mohammed Abbas to try and see off.

And at the other end, you'll have a left arm swinging it back in as a right-handed batsman. And I'm looking forward to Nassim Shah, because I thought last week he bowled a tremendous length, A length that I was watching that old tramp, oh, if he gets conditions where it's hooping around a bit and you bowl that length, he boils the aggressive attacking length. And if he gets it right tomorrow, I think we could be in for a treat.

So I think, Michael, the biggest development today was the retirement of M.S. Dony that I think everyone would have expected to have come around. Right now he's been around for such a long time. But how do we remember him most? I think inevitably, through one day cricket, don't we? I mean, the biggest superstar of his generation to follow Sachin Tendulka,

an incredible fan base, helicopter shot, World Cup final, the six into the pavilion to finish it. Well, there's so many things you remember out of the best. Oh, yeah, I think he's in my time been the best one-day captain I've seen. I think he's a pioneer with the way that he's maneuvered the one-day game from behind the stumps, you know, the calmness, the coolness, just the flapping of the wicket-keeping gloves for his field us to know exactly where to maneuver, out of the box thinking. Some of his tactical maneuvers were so kind of inventive that you kind of watch some time on what you're doing, but pretty

much all the time he got it right. Again, probably the best finisher that I've seen in one day cricket, almost set the scene for the rate to go up to allow him to have the superstardom at the end in terms of hitting a few sixes to get either, obviously, Indy. He's going to play on, I would think, in the IPL for the Chennai Super Kings. But He just had that ability to absorb the pressure and absorb the game, knowing that he had the power to finish it off at the end. And that takes some courage to kind of block, you know, I've seen him, I saw him playing innings a couple of years ago in Melbourne,

where he played out a couple of maidens in about the 43rd and 45th over. And we were all on coming, but what are you doing? And the rate went from someone like seven and a half to 12s, and he finished it with an over to spare. Because he almost like brought it on himself, and he kind of put all the pressure onto his power. and he just went, okay, I'll hit some sixes now and finish the game. You know, a wonderful cricket, a great guy.

You know, I think he's... Proper charisma about him. Yeah, he's got so much about him other than cricket. You know, we all know him for his great leadership, great play for India and for Chennai. But, you know, he's links with the army. You know, he's motorbike love. You know, he's a love of football.

Big, big football fan. He's a great guy. So Indian cricket, we'll miss him, but I'm pretty sure we'll see him in the T20 IPL for a couple more years. yes yes his wicket keeping it was sort of efficient

you know he most struck me as if he really enjoyed keeping wicket very much I mean you rarely saw him rush up to the stumps to take a throw he'd often let someone

else back it up wasn't he wasn't he wasn't a natural keeper is that is that fair I think in test match cricket absolutely fair I just don't think test match cricket

suited his style I just think he played test match cricket because he had to really for a while and then it was kind of like a bit boring it was a bit long for MST and he's a short format player

I thought he's keeping and the way that he takes his gloves to the ball as the ball's beating the bat is one of only a few wicketkeepers that actually meets the ball as it's beaten the bat and he can get to the stumps quicker because of that rather than take the ball take it away from the stumps and bring it back he has this wonderful technique of meeting the ball as it passes the outside edge so he just is that split second quicker so any stumpings than any keeper that i've ever seen i just think he's cool you know he's a cool cricketer and i can only imagine how how great it was to play with him.

He talked, something like Sam Billings played with him for Chennai. And he says that he's the coolest kid in town. He doesn't like team meetings, doesn't agree with that much practice. He just thinks that you should turn up and play cricket. Watch it through your eyes. He's not massive on data. He doesn't want his analyst to kind of throw a load of data at him. He just wants to play the game.

And I like that. I think there's so much innovation of data these days, which is great. But to see a cricketer like MS have some. much success and play it through his eyes and just through his feel and through a huge amount of power with the batting hand as you mentioned the helicopter shot the amount of times i've seen him play that shot under pressure it's uh it's a remarkable there's something different about the way he played it i mean he didn't he didn't invent it but he kind of built it didn't he and there was something about the flourish at the end of his particular helicom's a shot they don't think anyone else it's a real

physical physical business no one else has ever quite come up with that no it's an amazing skill and it's just hand speed and power yeah um but you you make mentioned that Wilco final in 2011 the fact that he moved himself up the order and said I'll finish this off and he went out there

and just played with so much calmness and that big big six to finish it off me and you couldn't get a taxi to get back to the hotel after the game that was quite a good fun but you know

he is with Satchin Tendulke you'd say and I guess Virac Koli now he's kind of a similar kind of mantle a real real legend of the game we'll finish it with a message from Satchin Tendulke that was posted

less than an hour ago, 45 minutes ago I've already got 106,000 lights from Satchin Tendulka your contribution to Indian cricket has been immense

winning the 2011 World Cup together has been the best moment of my life and that's not bad praise going from Satchin Tendulka with it Well you can just remember those scenes

You can remember MS hitting the 6th It was incredible Satchin being carried around the ground and it was almost all about Satchin but realistically that World Cup winning 2011 was masterminded by M.S. Dernie. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Well, it's great to have the former England player batting coach and strictly come dancing champion Mark Ramprakash with us again this summer. During the rain delay, he answered your questions, hosted by Andy Zaltzman and Atif Nawaz. The first question for you, Ramps, is from Martin in Brighton, who says, do you think you'll be the last batsman to score 100 first class hundreds? And if so, how proud would that make you feel? Martin, what a question just to open up.

You know, that was a nice little leg stump half volley. I hope that all the questions are as friendly as that. Well, for me to personally, to finally get to 100,00s, I remember being at Headingley, and Darren Goff was the captain of Yorkshire, and he was there playing, and it was wonderful to have him there, and Surrey were battling for a draw.

And, yeah, of course, it really took a while to sink in, actually, that you know taken a long time to get there over 20 years and I guess you know my view was and this is an honest view is that it was a reward for sort of longevity for retaining a love of the game not always you know it sort of came and went to a degree throughout the career but certainly the latter part of the career I got back to having a love of the game and not taking the game for granted you know, really enjoying what I was doing because so many of my friends and mates, you know, they had proper jobs and were sort of working nine to five,

you know. So playing a sport for a living was tremendously privileged to do that. And so I think it was a reward for longevity and the sort of, you know, practice and training that I managed to do. But at the same time, I realized that it'd come about pretty much as a consequence of that longevity. fact that I played my cricket in in England and we had the first class structure and you got the opportunity to play a lot of matches. So, you know, I was very, very grateful for that.

As for the continuing debate about whether people will will get close to that or achieve it, it looks unlikely just purely because, you know, times are changing and the first class, the emphasis on first class cricket really seems to be changing. You know, we see that with a pop-up T20 leagues all over the play. and the prioritization, oh, I nearly said that. Nearly. Prioritizing commercial, I think, probably means where the short format is getting a preference. And although there's been a slight redress in the balance of playing more championship cricket,

we hope throughout the season, not just bookending it in April and in September, it's made life very, very difficult for batsmen. And I keep particular eye on people that I've, worked with throughout countercricot so people like Sam Robson and David Milan and people like that and you know they're very very good players but they are finding conditions in recent years very very difficult so I think the chances of achieving something like that are are weighted in favour that it won't happen but it's not because the players

aren't good enough it's just just the format and the pitches and things like that we often see now like certain players are kind of labelled test specialists or long-form specialists I mean maybe someone like that has a chance like somebody who focuses on the longer game and eschews the riches, as it were, of the T20 game. Yeah, definitely. I think you're absolutely right. I think it would be that type of person

who has got more chance. So someone like Ian Bell, for example, who is still continuing to play for Warwickshire and is absolute class player and still wants to do well. You know, if he can retain his fitness and his motivation, there's absolutely no reason why he can't continue into his late 30s, early 40s, no reason whatsoever.

I suppose out here, I mean, Dominic Sibley, of course, now playing international cricket, maybe his chances will become less. If he was playing a lot of county cricket, then he would absolutely have a, because he has a lot of batting, doesn't he? He does. He doesn't give it away, court cover. You've got to work very, very hard to get him out. It's interesting.

When you think about your own career mark, like, you know, in your 20s, you had this noticeably more aggressive temperament and then you kind of mellowed a little bit as your career went on how much of that do you think impacted on you know how much more time you spent in the middle and the way you approached it was it like a genuine temperament switch or is it just something people imagined gosh yeah that's uh where do i start with that you had you had the nickname at the club level right they used to yeah and i think that really it came about I think that in my 20s, it came about through expectation. So I remember being selected for my debut test at 21 in the first test of a five test series against West Indies,

who were still reasonably good at that time, you know, Ambrose Walsh Marshall and the offspinner Patrick Patterson. Quite handy. Yeah, they were pretty good. So I guess that was a tough initiation. I mean, when I look back at that, I mean, I think as a professional player, you always look first at what you could. have done better. But when I do look back, now that I'm in the coaching and, you know, have to a degree of been involved in selection chats and stuff like that, when you introduce a young player, you're hoping to introduce them at ideally a time when they will make the transition

and make the jump. It's not always possible. We know that. But I think, I wonder what the unit selectors were thinking then in terms of introducing a young batter into that series, because it was always going to be hugely challenging. But of course, you don't get to pick and choose. Nash was saying, of course, you know, he went to the Caribbean the previous winter and that was incredibly tough. So, you know, good that they picked, I suppose, young players. But, you know, I do think that more recently we've tried to introduce players when they're

more likely to have an opportunity to settle down and play well. But, yeah, I think then have being in and out suffering with. with a sort of doubt and, you know, not sure of whether I belonged at that international level. A lot of pressure came on to me. Some of it obviously put on to myself, by myself, but you're in the spotlight. Every time Dick and Harry has an opinion about your game. And so that, what you're talking about there, it was a kind of a culmination of factors that came together that actually made cricket not very enjoyable for quite a long time.

and I was in and out of the international arena and every time I was picked again, having been dropped, you know, the pressure increased. So it was very difficult to handle. But, I mean, happily, I managed to sort of keep buggering on, if you like, for Middlesex, keep trying to score runs and enjoying that and trying to keep knocking on the door. So it was a difficult time.

To get back to your question, I think in my 30s, I certainly got a better way of feeling focused but relaxed. And, you know, other life changes come along, you know, children and perhaps a better balance in my life, you know, took all of the focus off, you know, all my eggs in one basket with cricket. Interesting. Andy. I'm just going to ask, do you think if you'd played the start of your career in the era of central contracts,

that would have made things easier? for you. Your first test summer was, you badded very well for a long time against all the best pace of attacks has ever come to this country and then you went to New Zealand and you weren't picked in the team. Was that, I mean, did you feel that was a, you know, the sort

of start of almost, you know, those doubts that you were talking about? Yeah, absolutely. So I think throughout the West Indies series, you know, I had a top score of 29, I played five tests. I didn't really feel particularly nervous in that series. I enjoyed it. I didn't have great expectation on myself. And then I missed out against Sri Lanka last test at the summer. And that was the

start really, yeah, being left out in New Zealand, coming back for the first test, the following summer against Pakistan, getting Nought at Edgberston, dropped, then coming back later in the series, you know, struggled. And that's really when the self-doubts crept in. And, you know, there's a lot a discussion about mental toughness and the definition and there are apparently a lot of very different definitions of mental toughness but I would say that for me um looking back at that time I lost the ability to think clearly um so it would come to an international match full house I'd really be wanting to do very well um and I remember an occasion at the oval where um I was just so nervous and wazemakran was at the top of his mark and i just a little voice said to me or just

push forward no matter what just push forward and i went forward and it was a full toss and i missed it lbw and that's that's kind of what happened really and so um although there were some bright spots uh away i remember in perth in 95 i flew over there from the a tour and did okay um yes it was a very up and down experience for me um i think when players coming to a new environment you're you really hoping to help them settle down and that's why a lot of the time now england invite players to come along and experience the test match they're not selected but they come along and spend a bit of time so when i was coaching paul farbrace was very very keen on getting talented players who perhaps they felt may have a future at international level to come to the test match for a day

or two maybe watch a bit of practice you know be around on the first day and i think um that's the sort of thing that can really help players settle down that if selection does come their way and then and i guess the central contract system i mean the beauty of it was it gave england a real team feel and i think in the 90s it would be fair to say that you know we had so many coming and going i mean often we said goodbye at the end of a test match not really knowing that we would see each other the following week so um i think the central contract system gives players that a little bit of continuity more of a team focus at the start of say in English summer that the players will be in and around that international arena

and that their preparation and practice will be aimed at the challenges that the tourists will provide as opposed to perhaps in the 90s where we were still going back and playing county cricket and you know I mean there's famous stories of I think I remember actually playing a test match at Lords finishing on the Monday and on that night Middlesex got a coach down to Cornwall

to play a NatWest game the following morning. So we arrived in Cornwall about 1.30 in the early morning and we were up at, I don't know, 8.30 to go to the ground and start at 10.30 a NatWest knockout match. Very, very different times. Very different times, indeed. We've got another one here from Faraz Big in Mumbai, all the way in Mumbai, who says,

you were in a partnership with Mark Butcher headingly in 2001 while chasing over 300 in the fourth inings to beat Australia. Have you ever seen anyone chase better than he did on that day, except, of course, for Lara or maybe Ben Stokes last year? And why couldn't he replicate his potential enough more often? Was it something technically different in that innings from Mark Butcher? Farah, you know your cricket and you've got an excellent memory.

And it's a really good point about Mark, actually, because, I mean, I remember. You can remember, like, almost a photographic memory of certain experiences in your career. And I can remember Mark, you know, cutting hard, you know, McGrath and Lee in that innings. And he just had the bit between his teeth. He was like, you know, he often, you'll hear this phrase, you know, in the zone or in the bubble. And he certainly was just in a world of his own there. And it was almost as though he had thrown caution to the wind. He was incredibly confident and almost feeling that, you know, well,

I'm not, I'm going to go down. If I'm going to get out, I'm going to go down swinging here. And it was a fantastic innings, you know, high, high class innings. I mean, you look back at that Australian attack. And to play in that manner, to take the attack to them, rarely has people played in such an aggressive manner to, to that attack. I think Mark, I remember him with the advent of T20, which was quite soon after that innings.

And he really enjoyed the introduction of. T20 because he was having a net at the over one day and he really freed up and you know was hitting balls over the top of the bowler's head and that's how he can he has those shots and he could play like that as a kid but sometimes you get caught up in first glass cricket and trying to play in a more correct orthodox conservative way he was put at number three for England and he did a great job but it is that very very tricky balance to get when you're playing test cricket and you encounter different conditions and you want to try

and be consistent is how you adapt. In some days I guess Mark at Headingley was just feeling great seeing the ball really well and he sort of let himself go a little bit but other times perhaps if it's a more tricky day perhaps at Headingley with overcast weather you know it may not be possible

Andy. Well he also did have a lot of consistency from the start of the 2001 summer before which he'd had a very difficult time over previous of 10 or 15 tests 30 tests average 46, 600s, 11 other 50s. So for sort of good, you know, his three-year peak, he actually was a very consistent test match player.

Absolutely. Very fond memories, I'm sure for a lot of Sari fans watching him as well. Another question from Richard Foulds. Given that your two test hundreds were against Walsh and Ambrose in Barbados and Warren and McGrath at the Oval, is it fair to say you saved your best for the best? Is motivation a factor, rams? Richard, I wish I could say that it was.

No, I think, you know, I look back very fondly on those endings, obviously. I think anyone's dream when they're growing up, if they love cricket, is to try and score 100 for the country. And, you know, I was no different. You know, I remember playing that little test match game, you know, like a little Sub-Buteo game when I was about six or seven. And, you know, my dad and I used to write down the teams. And, you know, I'd have names like, you know, Tony Gregg and Alan Nott and Derek Underwood in my team.

And, you know, I'd seen them on the television, Bob Walmer, you know, get 100 in the 75 and 76 series. And to then go on and achieve, finally achieve, getting 100 in Barbados, you know, that was a wonderful thing that, you know, you can never really be taken away from you. And because I'd had a few ups and downs, it's fair to say, for the previous seven years after my debut, you know, that was particularly satisfying. I think, yeah, it was just finally nice to get one back on, you know, Mrs. Ambrose and Walsh. I always get asked, actually, you know, who is the most difficult opponent? I get asked about who's the quickest, and I say, well, there's a lot of different spells that I can remember from very quick bowlers. But the most awkward bowler, if I could take one bowler out of my career, it'd be Mr. Walsh. And I don't, it's nothing personal because he's such a lovely guy.

But he was very, very awkward to face. And I found that because he was so tall, he had an awkward action, he could bowl long spells. And he always seemed to be bowling when I came into bat. So, yeah, Courtney, nothing personal. It's not just yourself. I'm sure there's a lot of other batsmen who would have, who would like to see the back of him. But getting those hundreds, I mean, it must have really, you know, been sort of feeling, feeling of vindication, really, because you know you've done it against, you know, who are the very best of that area.

are people who, as you say, have tormented you to have that moment where you come back. Do you remember the exact moment you pushed the ball out and you got your first century in test cricket? Do you remember the feeling? Yes, that's right. I mean, Nixon McLean was playing in that match and I'd come, I think I was 18 not out over at Barbados. And the following morning we resumed and Walsh bowled, I think, for about an hour and 20 minutes at one end. And, you know, it was very difficult, even though the pitch was very good. and there was not a lot of movement

certainly compared to English conditions but I sort of inched my way closer and then Nixon McLean came on and you know a shortish ball which I'd done a lot of practice on actually in preparation for the Caribbean that year is that you know the ball is going to be about waist height or above

and I've done a lot of practice not necessarily playing a lot of pool shots but playing a lot of straight bat forcing shots because that tends to be their natural length you know especially against tall bowlers So it was a ball that I feel I'd sort of practiced for at least. And so the preparation had paid off. Yeah.

And then it was clearly a lot of elation. Of course, it was so many English people in the ground as well. I mean, it was incredible. There's a support. And it's really nice, actually. I still get people come up and say, you know, I was in Barbados, you know, in 1998. And that's lovely to reminisce. Something you'll remember forever.

And as well, many cricket fans. Ed in Bloxham says, how important is dressing room culture? and individuals fitting in amongst the team in terms of ongoing selection. Seems as though Joss Butler is considered an integral team member and secure over place despite constantly ending up in negative in terms of runs scored versus runs conceded in a given test match. Do you think personality was ever a factor in selection during your time?

Well, Ed, I think you might be being a little bit unkind to Joss Butler there, but it is quite interesting. Personality, how does that factor in when you're picking your team? We know England have this history of, you know, reintroducing players and I'm thinking of Kevin Pete's and specifically but I mean that must play some part and you don't you don't always pick your best 11 players for their ability do you that is a great question and I think I've seen a huge change over my time in cricket so when I came in say to the middlesex dressing room 1987 Mike Gatting was captain and it was a very

boisterous dressing room I can tell you you know people did not hold back if they had something to say they said it and Gat kind of encouraged that really and he felt it was better off that the people get get it off their chest you know have it out and then move on and I mean that was the important thing of course is that you're able to get it get it out there and then move on and we did and Middlesex were hugely successful but it was a it wasn't one of these you know lovey-dovey kind of you know dressing rooms where everyone got on there was a lot of strong characters in there and you had to be a strong character to kind of survive and do well and there was a lot of hard Mickey taking as well

if you didn't do well so a lot of characters didn't like it and a lot of characters didn't flourish in that environment but that's just the way it was back then I think more recently I remember doing the level four coaching course in 2006 and there was a lot of discussion

about attitude versus talent and do you do coaches go for the talented youngster who perhaps is you know maybe a bit rough around the edges or do you go for the guy who's got the right attitude and that you know he's committed and of course

I think in recent times there's been a lot of emphasis put on character you know you constantly hear it spoken about you know that he's a good bloke and he's a well-rounded person and I always marvel at really at how articulate and and

balanced the England team is at the moment the individual just within there and what they have to cope with and the spotlight that they're under. I always think they come across brilliantly in the media. Someone like Olli Pope, who we heard from this morning, you know, he's a very articulate young man who speaks very sensibly in a balanced way

for someone so young in this international environment. However, are we, to a degree, missing out on some of the rough diamonds? That would be my worry as a coach. But I think that there's much more emphasis now on environment, people fitting into the environment and wanting a happy environment so that people can flourish. But every coach will have their own opinion about the importance of that. And at what point does a player need to be left out, even though he may be good for the

environment if he's not fulfilling his role in the side? Emma in Windsor has another question for you, Ramps. What is the secret to long-term success? The film The Edge shows a side who raced a success and fell away, revealing perhaps a corrosive divided dressing room. Did you experience a cultural reformation geared more towards morale and welfare when you were in the England coaching staff? Did you see The Edge, by the way?

I haven't, I've only seen clips. I haven't seen the whole thing through, so probably not best qualified to talk about that specifically. But not that I'm dodging the question here, but I think it's a really interesting question. and I can probably relate that best to my time at Surrey actually because when this Surrey side got together probably in the early 90s so people like Martin Bicknell, Mark Butcher, Alex Stewart, Graham Thorpe,

Alistair Brown, you know, they came through together and then Adam Holliak joined there and they had these wonderfully talented players all similar age coming up together and from what I understand Keith Medlicott, the coach, when he became coach, He was quite hands-on. He had a pretty young team, but he was quite hands-on, and he felt that they needed a firm hand to sort of help guide them. Adam, of course, gravitated to be a fantastic leader. And then as they became more mature and knew their game,

and the coach could then, the skill of the coach was to back off a little bit and allow them the space as mature young men who were quality cricketers to make their own decisions. decisions and again the team flourished we may we may have dropped off the wrong end of it if you like so the end of the story I guess was unfortunately out the leader of the side Adam had this personal tragedy that affected him and his attitude greatly which perhaps knocked us off course a little bit and you know that that was where I think you know a change in the leadership that perhaps the coach could have then come back in and been a little bit more

firm in in the way that he guided the group there so look it's it's a really tough thing for a coach to gauge um how to be coaches have got to be authentic haven't they they've got to be you know you get your authoritative ones and you get your lay safe air very laid back ones I think a quality coach might be able to adapt to the group that he has in front of him so it may be that if you have a youngish group that winning is not necessarily everything you're looking for progress within the group uh within individual performances hopefully and and maybe over time that will lead to winning of course if you take over a mature side with a lot of quality players you're absolutely hoping to win pretty much straight away yeah absolutely so it's very interesting mentality and i recommend the

film if you get a chance mark we might have plenty of time over the course of this test So you might get some time in to watch it. Phoebe Jones is a lighter question for you. Have you taken or used any of the techniques you learned in strictly come dancing into your cricket coaching? Wow. Now, I was surprised it took that long, actually. We may have edited the order a little bit. Okay.

Well, thank you for that, yes. Yes, I mean, obviously one or two comments about dancing down the wicket and things like that come to mind. And I guess a question I often get asked is about the crossover. Does anything transfer? So I remember doing Strictly, which was way back in 2006. And at the end of the season, 2006, Surrey had got promoted and I'd had a good season. And I went along to the dance studio, actually, to meet my partner, Karen Hardy. And this was in Old Street and the cameras were there rolling.

and I met Karen and she took me for a few steps of cha-cha-cha-cha, you know, for about an hour. And then she sort of took out her phone and she said, oh, look, Mark, you know, can I take your mobile number? And I thought, yeah, I still got it. She said, she said, look, what's your surname? So I said, well, it's long. So she wrote in L-O-N-G. Excellent. So she had absolutely no clue

of what my surname was and pretty much what I did. But that kind of sort of broke the ice between us and, you know, I had a great time. And what I realized was that within dancing, of course, you're on your feet a lot of the time practicing.

You need great stability and mobility and balance. So, yeah, there's plenty that there's a crossover, particularly with batting, actually. I must just say as well, I mean, from memory, is that waiting in the wings to go on, now that was nerves. Is it comparable to waiting to go out there to bat? Yes, very much so. But, oh my God, at least batting, I've got some idea of what I was meant to be doing. I mean, the dancing was, oh, it's dreadful.

I mean, on a Saturday performance, I'd go to the BBC and we'd have a dress rehearsal in the afternoon. but I'd have to watch football focus, you know, at 12.30, you know, first of all. And then it'd get to 6 o'clock or whatever. And, of course, it's live. You know, it's a live TV show. And, you know, I would know very, very quickly in the first few seconds of the routine, whether it was going to be a reasonable night or not, you know. But I did try and, I called upon, actually, some of the things that I'd learned in cricket.

When I first met Steve Ball, which was the England sports. psychologist in 1998. That was the first time they'd employed a sports psychologist. And, uh, you know, we had a meeting for about an hour in Guyana around the swimming pool there. And, um, you know, he was amazing how, uh, he kind of gave me a little bit of a strategy, a bit of a framework to cope with the nerves. And I did call upon that, uh, to when I, when it came to doing the dart show, yeah. That's interesting. I mean, how often do you meet people and, like, in a professional environment, even in an environment like this and people say, Show us a few steps.

Does that happen often? Well, I wish I could. I do remember occasion in Newcastle after the show. So I went up to Newcastle for a function. There was about 400 people there in a black tie event. And we'd had the dinner and they said, look, Mark, can you come up and help with the auction? And they did the 10 auction items. And then they said, over the loudspeaker, they said, right, now, well, the lady who bid to dance with Mark, please come up.

And they started playing this music. I don't know what they expected from me But we did a bit of a two-step for about 30 seconds And then that was it Because of course, you know You don't really learn to dance on strictly You know, you kind of learn a series of steps And my partner used to push me around

And get me in the right place But yeah, there's no way I could have done a full-on routine So that was a bit of a letdown, I'm afraid That's interesting We've got a question here from Fred Pennell From a Wimborn Cricket Club And he says

I've been lucky enough to play a couple of football games for the wonderful Corinthian casuals football club with ramps and can attest to his competitive spirit, Westminster School sticking in the memory. But it all pales into insignificance to his somewhat charged last ball catch and shirt-wielding reaction at the T20 match of the Rose Bowl right here where we are now. He's been taking a bit of banter mildly put from the partisan evening crowd

and in his defence the assembled loved his response. Does he recall the evening and on the first point, how much did he enjoy his football, knowing that alongside of the famous cricketing, Corinthians such as Alex Stewart, he might be on show at all times. Well, Fred, thanks for bringing all that up. Yes, fond memories, actually.

I mean, there's several things there, I guess. The Corinthian casuals, yeah, fond memories of making a few appearances for them. And that team used to go around playing a lot of the school first elevens. And they were very competitive matches, I have to say. And, yes, and Westminster would particularly feisty first 11. And I remember they had a couple of teachers on the sideline who sort of thought they were Sir Alex Ferguson or something.

They were straight into the ref. And, yeah, it was a competitive match. But, yeah, I think I played football from a young age, and I had a love of the game for that. And I think it gave me many things. You know, it gives you a natural fitness base, athleticism. But, you know, you have to have that. competitive spirit of course it comes out in different ways with different people but i don't mind

seeing a bit of fire and passion in the belly for from some youngsters and i think sometimes you know we're maybe a bit too quick to to um coach that out of people um and that's kind of what i was alluding to earlier about you know rough diamonds and and looking to polish them and work with them and help educate them really um for me i i had that love of football and um you know i that that was great fun for me and it gave me that balance i was talking about you know football in the winter cricket in the summer so that that was great fun and in terms of the the t20 well of course that's the passion and emotion isn't it i mean it it of course it was here um it wasn't quite a full house there were one or two more people in here than than today yeah but um i can

remember the air there was an area actually as i look out onto the field so if you come out from the pavilion on the left kind of square of the wicket there was a few guys down there and they were just giving me a little bit of a little bit of stick throughout the 20 overs and I we were struggling surrey and um we hadn't made a particularly big score in the first innings well in the in our innings and you know it looked like we were going to you know probably lose again and we'd had a pretty rough old time and so um I think the ball was pushed to me in the last over and I managed to somehow pick it up throw down the stumps and then I kind of ran over to them just to let them know that you know I was quite happy

with the result and that we'd won the game. So I wouldn't recommend it though, really. In hindsight, I do cringe. The next one is from Chris in North Wales, who like me is a lifelong middle sex supporter. He previously lived in St. John's word. He says, I remember a one-day cup final, I think in 1987 when he came in with a scorer around 20 for four

and this unknown youngster won the game for Middlesex with a half century. I think I recall a partnership with John Embury. Am I right in thinking you around 17 at the time? Was that your debut and what are your memories of the occasion? Why did you move to our arch rival, Surrey? I was so disappointed. You know what, Chris? I'm with you.

I too was very disappointed when that happened. I was kind of surprised. It wasn't as controversial at the time, to be honest with you. But do remember that match, Raps. I do remember the match. I'm talking of a controversial. I mean, it wasn't quite Sol Campbell moving from Tottenham to Arsenal. But, yeah, there was a, there's some, it's amazing.

Yeah, there are still some middle-sex supporters who really hold that against me. and rightfully so I'm just kidding I do remember the game 1988 and again I go back to that middlesex environment because I hadn't played

in any of the previous rounds for the NatWest trophy and they were big games I mean they were like FA Cup games and the competition was a fantastic competition in fact I wish actually they would reinstate it

because I think it would be a great to have a knockout competition but of course we know that the summer is so congested but it was a great competition to play in and a great competition to progress in. Surrey had had a... Millisex had beaten Surrey actually in the semi-final,

and Keith Brown had got a really valuable 30-not-out to take the team home. And I remember I'd got into the side and played a few four-day games just before the final. And I remember coming back around from Hove on a Friday night, and we just finished playing a four-day game against Sussex,

And I was in the car with Norman Cowans. And I remember asking, you know, what do you think? You know, have I got a chance of playing? You know, and he was kind of a little bit noncommittal. And on the Saturday morning, made my way into Lords. And, of course, you know, that was a full house. There was a lot of people in there. And they were big occasions.

And anyway, Middosex went over to the nursery. And, of course, in those days, we had to warm up in your whites. None of this training gear to have your whites on, do it properly. And, you know, we'd had a few catches and hit a few. Gat just before he was just about to go out on the field to toss So this was just before 10 o'clock and he he just oh by the way Ramps you're playing you're in wow that that was a pretty late late call on his part But I guess it gave me no real time to think about the occasion

And but I have to give Gat you know a lot of credit there Because to pick me at that age with no matches 17 matches under my belt. I hadn't played in any of the previous rounds, no real experience of the one-day cricket. To play me in a final, that was a big decision, I think, for Middlesex there and for Gat. And obviously, I'll be very grateful to him for that opportunity. And, well, it was a wonderful occasion because we got over the line. I mean, it was a very typical Lord's final in those days, quite low-scoring, massive toss to win and against a very,

very good Worcestershire side. I mean, as for the move to Surrey, how long have we got? Well, it was a heck of an occasion, and you did take them over the line with that innings. Andy? Well, I'm going to ask about that game specifically Mike Gatting in that game. And talking about the quality of Worcestershire, an all-international bowling attack, Graham Dilley, Neil Radford, Richard Lillingworth, Phil. Newport, there are 15 current or future England players in the match as a whole.

Can you just talk to Mike Gatting's run-out in that game, which I think might be one of the funniest runouts in the entire hit he was run out for nought yeah well it wasn't funny for us at the time i mean we were we were there and we'd lost an early wicket um and uh gat had gone out and of course he was you know he was fantastic player mike i mean and i probably would have been close to his peak i reckon at that time 1988 um and uh very much a gun player you know world class player and uh he was at the non strikers end and the ball got pushed i think by Wilf Slack back past the bowler and it may have been a slightly late call but but Gat had sort of from backing up it had sort of turned round to go back into his crease at the non-striker's

end and then Wolf will settle it yep he wants to and then Gat kind of ran up the wicket but he wasn't really putting in the big ones to be honest it was a fairly casual jog up the other end and Neil Radford I think who was a bit of a live wire and you know quite an aggressive and he ran round and pinged it. He had a great arm, pinged it at the wicket-keeper's end. And Gap was short. And he was done,

he was caught napping a little bit, dare I say. But brilliant piece of fielding from Worcestershire and it kind of really, we really wobbled then, yeah. So we were very, very happy to kind of finally get over the line. Well,

it really set the stage for that innings that so many people remember of yours. And what a way to announce yourself on that stage. Fred Brown in Haydock says my question for Mark Ramprak Cash is where was he watching last year's ICC World Cup final and how was he feeling and what was his reaction to England beating New Zealand? Thank you Fred for that question. You went at the ground. Were you at the ground? I was at the ground. Yes, I was at the ground because

Gray Nichols, who I was sponsored by, they were doing, or they'd been running a competition and they were at lunchtime, which went out onto the outfield there at Lords and several people came along and took part in a competition and they had to hit some balls back at this target and try and dislodge the bales or something and so I was kind of involved in that now I remember it being quite a cold day a bit overcast and

I didn't look too closely at the first innings but I remember thinking at half time oh yeah you know we've got it in the back I felt I felt so confident especially given the way England had played in the previous matches that we had this in the bag and of course it didn't quite work out

as comfortable as I thought it was going to be and I wasn't aware that the rules had changed once it was tied in real time I wasn't aware that I just assumed that it would go on wickets and so I was as surprised there's a lot of people I think that the rule had changed good job it had actually

yeah so where were you when that super over happening where were you in lords uh well i was actually i wasn't really watching it live i was more in the indoor school i'd been stationed there for a lot of the time um so but i mean of course the noise the noise was was fantastic and i think um for me uh having seen if i go back to the previous world cup in 2015 and been involved in that and then involved in subsequent one-day series where Owen took over the reins along with Paul Farbrace

and they took on that New Zealand series which really was a huge shift from what had gone on before and to see those players who had come in there I mean a fresh face Jason Roy who had a quiet series against New Zealand but of course England you know to their credit

absolute credit Andrew Strausser and Morgan Paul Farbrace you know they had this firm belief and vision of what they wanted to try and create and they stuck with Jason So to see him, and of course I know Jason from his early days at Sari as well, but to see him and all of the other players who had been lucky enough to see develop, you know, once picked from England, Mowen Ali and Adil Rashid and all these different guys, to see them be involved in the World Cup

and go on to be winners, you know, was wonderful because you see how much hard work and you see goes into it and how much it means to them. And, you know, the fact that, you know, to be honest, campaigns had been so off the pace that to see this all come to fruition was it was magnificent it really was it was quite the occasion and you know I remember being fortunate enough to be there myself it was quite something to to behold right we've got another question from David at Basterfield and you've sort of addressed this before but I'll ask it again because I quite like the way the questions were did to be honest with you I played against Mark in men's cricket

when he was 12 at Parkfield he looked superb as a batsman then and was a lovely lovely polite lad two lovelies. I played against his father in several Sunday games. He was also a lovely charismatic man, a joy to play against. Later, I played against Mark when he was a first-class slash test cricketer when he turned out for Besbrough versus Acton in an end-of-season game. And he was a lovely, lovely man twice again.

However, at Stanmore, he had a reputation as a bad thrower and generally an angry young man. What was that all about? What caused the change of attitude? stroppy teenager syndrome his words not mine thank you David thank you very much

we're going to be hanging out a bit I don't want to make it awkward what happened at Stamwell there was no change of attitude I was always a passionate you know committed player who wanted to do his best

now you know I've made reference once or twice to you know trying to pick talented players who are not necessarily the finished article in terms of being balanced people and I kind of guess I'm drawing on my own experiences there and so when I look at you know middlesex and surrey right now and it's been the case for quite a number of years in their academies if they have 12 boys there between 16 and 18 definitely 11 will probably come from private schools why is that because I

think that the education and the way that they are taught helps them to one, listen to coaches and take on information, but also to articulate their thoughts. And it's a lot easier for coaches to perhaps work with them. And you get this phrase of coachability. I would argue that are we missing out on some very, very talented players who don't necessarily fit into that easy to coach mould? And so that's what I was alluding to again when I was talking about the level four, which I took in 2006, which was.

pretty much saying to coaches, pick attitude over talent, because you can do more. If someone's got a great attitude, you can do more with that. But I would say that if someone's talented for the game, that perhaps you can help educate them in other areas. So if I take that back to myself, look, I was someone who really wanted to do well, and I didn't handle disappointment very well at all. And I look back on that with disappointment, and I probably needed a bit more. more of a helping hand and a mentor to help me understand, you know, the right way to behave

and the bigger picture. And I was perhaps a bit wrapped up in my own little world of wanting to do well. But, you know, when you're 11 on 12 and 13, you know, that's that's kind of what happens. And I think you, you know, you need influences like that who can kind of help you deal with these different things. So I guess in terms of being a coached now, I have a great opportunity to try and help people, you know, handle everything that goes along with, you know, trying to do their best and pursue a dream to be as good as they can be.

Absolutely. Wonderful. Wonderful stuff, Mark. Another question from Victor Lane from Guernsey. How are things in Guernsey right now? I saw a young Mark Ramprakash play a very classy innings in Guernsey many years ago and could see then that he was something special. Then in 2010, I saw him play for Surrey against Glamorgan in the 40-over competition, and Surrey made their highest ever 40-over score.

Sadly, Rain stopped Glemorgan chasing. Does he have any memories of these innings? What do you remember about Guernsey? Gersie, yeah, very good memories of Guernsey. That was on a, I think, a Middlesex team that went over there to tour. And a number of the counties, I think Hampshire, Sussex, Kent, maybe sent teams to Guernsey. for this week of matches where we you know everyone played everyone and um yeah it was great fun

i remember we've stayed in this massive kind of like scout hut um and we had these camp beds that really were just like on these metal wire rim things you know very very very basic and of course they put it lobbed everyone in into this massive hall and well there was a lot of mischief that went on in it and but fond memories and some very good cricketers from from middlesex in in that time and you know those memories actually and those opportunities were so so important to my development so when I look back at the middlesex cults that I came through and I was very lucky to start at the age of 10 in the middlesex under 11s but they had very well-organized matches good grounds, good pitches, good umpires, and the guys who looked after us, they weren't really

coaches, but they were well-respected guys who related well, spoke well with parents, and they made the whole experience a very nice one. So I look back on those opportunities. They're very thankful for the people involved who gave up their time to run those boys' teams and progressing up through, you know, mid of six under 13s to mid of six under 15s, and a lot of great work that goes on at that level, you know, I'd be hugely grateful for that, really. Yeah, incredible memories, all these wonderful memories. And thank you so much, Mark, for taking the time. It's been a pleasure, really, just chatting. And, you know, we could do this all day. We've got a couple more questions before we wrap up. Peter has a question for you, Mark.

Fans love seeing current or former international players playing at county level. That extra bit of quality and time that they have is a treat to watch, and you can often see, and you can often see it's better, but is it tough to motivate yourself for domestic cricket after international cricket, and is the gap getting bigger or smaller? That's a great question. Yeah, great question. And I guess several things come to mind there. One is that, isn't it wonderful to have Alistair Cook playing at Essex? So in terms of motivation, he's not struggling for motivation. He He clearly has a love of Essex and playing for Essex and that environment. And a lot of people thought that when he played that last test match, that would be the end of him.

And I think a lot of people actually quite surprised that he's gone back and is playing for Essex. But good on him for that. And he's getting the enjoyment from it. Of course, there are other players who haven't done that. And once they've played international cricket, they do struggle to go back for their counties, perhaps, and play at domestic level. So it depends a little bit on the personality. If you feel that you've achieved all you have wanted to achieve in the game and you perhaps are running a bit low in terms of energy

and you feel your time has come, then you've got to make that decision. It's not always an easy one. I remember asking many ex-players about retirement because I was very unsure. I was still thinking, well, it got to 40 and 41. And I was still thinking, well, yeah, yeah, I kind of want to keep going. and they all said to me

well you'll know when the time comes you'll know when to retire well actually I didn't and in the end I probably embarked on the season in 2012 when I probably shouldn't have done but my mindset had been for such a long time yet just keep going keep training

keep playing but actually I think I had run out of juice and I got to sort of the middle of the season and was given a little bit of ultimatum by Chris Adams at Surrey where he said, look, you know, we're not going to pick in the first team, so you're going to either play second team or go on loan. And, you know, obviously that's quite a hard thing to hear at any stage of your career. And I was lucky I was meeting Justin Langer that afternoon, just purely by chance Australia were in town. And he was

fantastic. And because I respected him, he was able to talk to me honestly about managing the way you go out of the game. And it's such an important thing, you know, really. And I hadn't had anyone to talk about with it. And he helped me greatly in terms of saying, actually, how do you want to go out? And do you want to go on loan? Or is this the best time? And actually, the way it happened was for the best. And so I'm very thankful to him for his wise words. That's it. And for people who don't get to bump into Justin Langer, they've just got away for the feeling. They've just got away for the feeling. We've got a couple more questions for you, Mark. Lewis in Redding says, if it wasn't for cricket what would your job be and you can't say professional dancer no no without

doubt no um but yeah i i guess um i haven't really thought about this too much because um although i went to college um to do a couple of a levels um i wasn't there too often really i was kind of and when i was i mean at home i'd stare out the my bedroom window thinking about playing cricket rather than doing my economics. So I was pretty much at that age already 17, 18, thinking about professional cricket. In fact, I was offered a professional contract at 17 with Middlesex,

so I'd already kind of gone down that path. Although, funny enough, now I've got two daughters and one of them has been to Sheffield University and graduated in law. And the other one, of course, well, she's meant to have had her results. She's been involved in this shambolic fiasco at the moment. moment with the A level results and she's been badly affected by it. But I've always said to them, look, I think going to university is a great thing to do. And if I'd had my time again, I actually probably would have advised myself to go to university and enjoy that. And again, it could have

given me a bit more balance to your life. So I think, you know, that's something that that university time, you know, maybe I might have changed and having reflected on it. Andy? A question from Philip Chapman, tapping into your coaching expertise. He says most amateur players only play once a week, don't have time to practice. What would you say is the best way for them to prepare and do well in a game? Well, yeah, I mean, it's difficult if you have limited time. I think, you know, there's a lot of talk actually about, you know, whether you practice what you're weak on or practice what you're good on or your strengths, for example.

So I think ideally, you know, sometimes it's good to work on your strengths. So, for example, if you're really good at driving, then, you know, practice that and get plenty of drives. And that field, you know, that helps with confidence. At the same time, I do think, you know, if you're, you know, if you keep getting stumped or something like that, then, you know, you've got to sort of, you know, kind of work out a way of, you know, playing spin as well. So, you know, hitting, if you can't hit loads of volume of balls, then you've got to be quite specific in what you, the practice you do and make it specific to the challenges that you're going to face on a Saturday. That's probably the best thing to do.

So I'm involved a little bit with Stam or CC. And, you know, I always, the players there, they really struggle against spin and they kind of get block, block, and then not quite slog, but they go for a big shot. And I think a lot of players at club level particularly struggle to rotate the ball off the spinners. And that's something that I've tried to get them to think about. Yeah, good advice. And the last question for the session.

It's been a great session, again, Raps. Thanks for taking the time. It's been lovely just having you here generally. And lovely presence to have around in these times, especially when we're filling loads of gaps. And we've got the last question today. And it had to be about Strictly, obviously, right? This is from Thomas Day. He said, which current England player can you see winning strictly come dancing in the future?

future. God, there's so many, so many guys. So many. I think there's so many guys who could potentially do brilliantly. I mean, if I go back to yesteryear, Mike Gatting, I still think, could do a job on Strictly. You know, can't you? As a catering consultant or camera operator or master chef would be better, isn't it? You can't keep setting them up for us like that much.

Just don't think, I don't know. I just see the tight light. No, okay, maybe nobody don't want to visualize that. But, okay, if not Mike Gatting, then, out of the current crop, I mean, there's a lot of, you know, good-looking young men in that dressing room. You know, Chris Wokes is there. I mean, he's a natural athlete, you know, great footballer. He's really annoying, actually. He's a very good-looking young lad.

He's so polite, good at golf football, whatever you like. He could do well. I guess those who are coming, you know, to work. was the twilight stages of their careers, and Jimmy Anderson and Stuartport definitely could see them getting on strictly. And I hope they do. They'll have a great time, no question about it. I remember ringing up Darren Goff for a chat about whether I should go on strictly,

and after half an hour of listening to Darren, he was very encouraging and was saying, look, no, you must do it, you'll have a great time. But of course, he was very extrovert. Oh, he is very extrovert. very, very different to me, much more introvert. So you put the spotlight on Darren, he comes alive, and it's fantastic. He's got a great personality.

But for other people, it's maybe not quite as, you know, you're putting yourself out there, you know, with the whole costumes and everything else like that. But I think that Jimmy and Brody definitely would love to see them, you know, doing a little bit of salsa or something like that. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, thanks to Ateef Navajan, especially Mark Bracash, so we'll try again here for the fourth day.

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