Test Match Special - Day 4: Here comes the rain again

Episode Date: August 16, 2020

Jonathan Agnew presents from the Ageas Bowl where there was play for 60 minutes...and then the rain fell. Play was abandoned with England on 7-1 after having finally bowled Pakistan out for 236. Aggers is joined by Michael Vaughan to discuss the little cricket they saw, while Simon Mann chats with England batting consultant Jonathan Trott about his involvement with the team. Following MS Dhoni's international retirement yesterday, Simon, Mark Ramprakash, Isa Guha, Andy Zaltzman and Prakash Wakankar discuss the man, his playing career and his significance to people in India.

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from BBC Radio 5 Live. I'm Jonathan Agnew. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast. Another frustrating day here in Southampton, but at least we've had some action. We'll hear from Michael Vaughn and from the England batting consultant, Jonathan Trott. And we'll pay tribute to MS. Doni,

who announced his international retirement yesterday. You're listening to the TMS podcast. From BBC Radio 5 Live. We've had, what, five overs of England's innings. that was after they managed to wrap up Pakistan's innings they added 13 runs this morning all out for 236 the last one out was Muhammad Rizwan

for a very good 72 Stuart Broad had him he was looking to turn the ball away into the leg side and got a thick leading edge I was taken by Crawley in the cover so that was the end of Rizwan there was an amusing one not out from Nassim Shah

I think he's still wondering how he got it but he did he was one not out he managed to hang on in there and so 236 all out Ingo England in poor light We've talked to a lot about the light And whether what's poor or not To go out and face the new ball as they did

It was pretty grim out there The ball's going all over the place Burns edged his second delivery From Shaheen It didn't quite carry to slip The fourth did though It was a beautiful ball You can I suspect look at footwork or whatever

But in those conditions The ball's swinging away Burns pushed at it Nice catch taken by Shafik at second slips It burns out for a duck That was nought for one To the fourth ball of the inings Sible got a horrible blow high up

well almost in the stomach really it full turning around it bounced lifted rearing around low the place he and he and crawley were hopping about all over the place before finally the rain came down and spared them any more so that was seven for one after the five overs that were bowled in all in the game after four days

we've had 96 overs play and I can't remember scanning my limited memory a point after four days in which you've had such little cricket unless I suppose we go back to Centurion and the match that we don't really talk about anymore

but I suspect that was similar Michael Vaughan in fact that would be a little job for Andy Zaltzman down there to perhaps to keep him busy he's had a quiet couple of days he's just got grumpy down there wow what do we say

well I think that we must admit now that the power of the media it doesn't work because most of our media college in the far I think it's a shame worn stand have been tweeting all sorts about the ground staff and the lack of urgency. We have. We've been talking about it for four days.

Today, I reckon they've been at the best in terms of lack of urgency. There's been nothing. Maybe there's a ground staff here that don't love the game because you're absolutely right for pretty much a couple of hours. The rain has fell, but it's been so soft that there was a period where you just felt, get the super sopper out, get it on the covers, get the water off, as much as you possibly can, just to give us a glimmer of hope of potentially two, two and a half hours of play.

that's not been the case and the umpires again a little bit of a bug bearer of mine it was hardly raining but they walk across with umbrellas it's just such a negative look they walk off and they speak to the ground stuff and then we get the message that players been abandoned for the day it's clearly quite wet out there there's the tractor going around with the machine that drills holes into the outfield to try and make it to breathe a little bit of that's the one so clearly there's a little bit of dampness out there but yeah frustration that spell of back that we saw for the England top three, it was as hard as you can possibly get. The ball was going all over the place. Rory Burns gets a good one. There's a little bit with Rory Burns' foot movement. I just think that right foot that keeps going over to outside of something, he has to kind of drag it back.

So when the ball is around off-stump, middle-stump, which the delivery wasn't, it's just moving away. He has to bring his right foot back. So it's almost like his back comes across the line of the straight ball. And as soon as you get a little bit of movement when you're playing in that fashion, There's a chance that you're going to be finding the outside edge on a regular basis. The foot, where he's putting his foot, is preventing the back coming through straight. So he has a trigger that he goes bum bum, and then the right foot, you just watch, it goes outside of some, and then he has to bring it back for when it's straight.

That's an area that, you know, you look at his LBWs over the last few weeks. It's been very similar that he goes across and cross, goes outside of something. Shannon Gabriel had him here played nicely for his 30-odd, and all of a sudden, Gabriel went around the wicket. It went wide, wide, wide. He kind of went wider and wider with that right foot and then he threw one in straight and he had to drag it back and his back came across the line.

Today was a good ball. It's not a great deal but it's just that little technical fault that I'm looking at and thinking if there's any movement or you're just out of sink as a batsman you're going to be in trouble of time. So Zach Crowley looked good. I thought he came out. I mean, we're talking about a player on five, not out, but he looked okay.

Terrible time to come out. Awful with Mohammed Abbas. I mean, Mohammed Abbas bowl some deliveries. He has it on a piece of string. And it's like hitting the rope and one nips back and one nips away. But the one that he hit Sibley with, I think it was the first balled at him, actually. It squared him up, but bowled at about 77 miles an hour. The thing reared.

It's incredible how he, it must be the wrist, how he generates that nip at that sluggish pace. yeah and that ball we had it on Hawkeye that balled just a little bit wide with the crease and it was angling to go over leg stump possibly missing leg stump and you imagine that angle and then it's just turned Dom Sible

around and it's seen it's hit him on his back hit bone so that's the amount of seen that Mohammed Abbas was producing I was really excited about seeing England bat because it wasn't going to be easy on a pitch like we saw with that attack

you could quite easily have been 30 or 40 for 5 or 6 with the amount of movement that Pakistan were getting but I'm sure we'll see some cricket tomorrow certainly there's not going to be a result in this test match I don't think there'll be any chance that the captains will get together and create a match and that'll be for Friday's third test match but whatever we see tomorrow

as a batsman and ex-player it's not going to be easy no but it is fascinating isn't it you're right I was sitting absolutely glued to that passage of play an old bowler you want to see these at the very top and they are Abbas is at the top

Shaheen's learning but my word he's going to be good and of course we didn't see the 17 year old unfortunately but we will

tomorrow hopefully if the weather's good but it's it's contests like that that make test cricket what it is it isn't supposed to be easy and that was right

on the fringe of almost impossible with the conditions with the light and everything else but to see to see the bowlers exploiting

those conditions. I thought it was well sometimes box office. Yeah absolutely I mean sometimes in county cricket you know

you get conditions that are so tough and you get bowlers not quite at the standard of Mohammed Abbas but he's played for Lettyshire and had a field day

playing in the county game but you know David Masters at Essex for so many Darren Steven just got his 800s first last week but you know they're the kind of bowlers

when they get conditions of the hardest to face because they give you no pace you know what you want really is as an opening batsman in particular you want a little bit of pace that if you play a shot

and it just finds the outside it flies down to third man for four or you just kind of lean on one and it flies for extra cover for four against 78 miles an hour you have to put all the effort in you have to make the players a batsman so that's why they're so difficult

accuracy, skillful looking forward to seeing in Baltimore and also I mean over the course of the next few days I think the weather's going to be quite similar so you look towards the next test match which starts on Friday I think we'll be in for another week where the ball will be zipping around

so it's a week where the batsman will know that they're technically going to have to be strong and their minds are going to have to be very calm. And just a thought, I mean, there is a chance for Pakistan to strikes and blows tomorrow ahead of that game. I mean, it's not as though, yes, it's a dead day we suspect as far as the game is concerned, but there's a lot to be done.

An Englishman, Joe Root gets some runs, or Zach Crawley gets some runs. Yeah. The quick bowlers get some wickets. There's still plenty in it. There's never any dead days in test match cricket. There's always something to play for. Zach Crawley at three, look nice.

Can he get a score? Joe Root back at number four, his favourite spot. can he get a score, can pack his stand bowling than doubt cheaply. If they do so, you know, England will be arriving on Friday with a few players with a little bit of negativity. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, thank you, Michael. Andy Zaltzman, a bit bare of stats, I think, after just 96 overs. What have you found? Well, I mean, a stat on shortest test matches in England in terms of balls, bold.

It won't set a record. That was 17.2 overs and the Trent Bridge Ashes. tested in 1926. That was a four-day game. But it's, if there's no play tomorrow, it'll be in the top five most pointless games in the history of test cricket in England in terms of few as balls bowled. One stat that did come out of today's play, Rory Burns' duck, was the fourth by an England opener this summer, which ties the record for most England opener's ducks in a home summer with the disastrous year of 1989 when England got destroyed by Australia and there were four openers ducks then as well.

A suitably melancholy stat, I think, for the occasion. Thank you, Andy, very much indeed. Well, among those here with the squad this week is the former England batsman Jonathan Trott, who's working here as a batting consultant for these games. And Trott has been speaking with Simon Mann. Well, it's lovely to see you in England colours. Would you fancy batting out there in this test match? It's not been easy for the batsman, is it?

No, the previous one, maybe. I think a little bit tricky and the conditions today were certainly more conducive you'd say to bowling but I think the guys did well and there was some good deliveries flying around there and Pakistan started really well and

gave us an insight of how tough it's going to be tomorrow maybe what about someone like Rory Burns I mean you're the batting consultant here you play here for four days and then you're out from North and how do you do you speak to him or do you let him just think it through himself

How do you get involved in the situation like that? Well, I think it's important that, you know, he feels comfortable in that. I haven't really coached much with Rory Burns, and it's about building that relationship and trust, which is the most important thing. There's other coaches here that have been around for years, but I'd love to chat. I love chatting to him about batting,

and I think quite similarly in that way. He thinks a lot about his game. I mean, it'd be just bitterly disappointed, but, you know, looking forward to the next time he gets out there and straps on the pads and bats for a long time for England. Yeah, what do you say to bats, about batting in these conditions? You just got to play as late as possible

and try and get us into the ball and not really worry about whether it's going to seem if it's going to seem that's going to happen. I think you've got to be in good strong positions, defence and attack when you want to score, and leave well. That's a crucial thing. What about the fact that you're not playing very much?

How difficult is it for players when you build yourself up for a test match and then you hardly play? Yeah, certainly, especially of the excitement and the way the last game went. The guys were chomping at the bit to get out to you. We had two good days of practice. And it's really disappointing.

I know so much effort's gone into this game from the team up to all the administration at the top of the ECB and the media. So we're bitterly disappointed not to be able to play and play in front of the nation. But the guys are working extremely hard. They've been in the net today. They've been in the indoors and ready for tomorrow.

What about your role? Tell us a bit about your role. Batty consultant. What does that mean? I'm trying to figure it up as I go. I think just to come in and help out because obviously Graham Thorpe's not with us taking these two test matches off

and then going to be with the one days, I think. So I think it's just to come in and help out and get in amongst the guys. We're almost sleeves up, work really hard and try and help guys as much as possible. Yeah, well, what's your sort of unique selling point as a batting coach, do you think? I think just keep it really simple.

I think sometimes as cricket is, we sometimes complicate the game and sometimes breaking it down, and keeping it simple and making sure that you've got the right sort of processes in place to go out there and perform when under pressure. And what about as a career opportunity? How big an opportunity is this for you? Massive. Whenever you get the opportunity to come into the England dressing room,

it's always an opportunity to come in and add to it if you can and make sure you leave it in a better place and you find it. How different does it feel coming in as a sort of outsider rather than as a player when you were part of the dressing room? Well, I've been in and a run. I've done a few days coaching last year. But that's an amazing thing about the dressing room. You feel welcome all the time. I mean, I'm really thankful for the guys for that. It's been pretty easy coming in and sliding in

and finding a place in the change room. Don't forget, I've played with quite a lot of the guys as well. So I have that on my side, and they feel pretty comfortable, I hope, around me. And what about the future? Do you want to do more of this? What does the future hold for you? Well, yeah, I'm pretty ambitious for my coaching. I really enjoy it.

I've done quite a bit of in the short space of time that I haven't been playing cricket or retired from professional cricket so yeah I really enjoy it and being a batting coach you end up throwing a lot of balls and working with the players is just something I like doing

yeah people don't realise that actually you know there's quite a lot of just hard nitty gritty behind the scenes throwing balls and what's that like explain you know what you actually do I feel like in an interview here so like a job interview you are in an interview

I should say. Well, generally in the morning, a lot of guys, some guys like to hit on the side of the field. Some guys like to hit in the nets. I'll generally go to the nets and use the claws that we have to throw the ball. That simulates a pace that probably test bowlers with bowl at. And then just be around in chat with the guys and then also pick up during play,

especially being the sort of batting coach that's coming from the outside. You generally do the dog's body work and go and throw as many balls as bad as one in the net. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So another frustrating day here, but it did give us a chance to reflect more on the international career of the Indian legend M.S. Doni. Simon Mann led the discussion on the World Cup winning captain. You can pick out all sorts of facts from M.S. Doni's career.

I mean, one that strikes me as being amazing, really, is he played 538 times for India. 38 times for your country I mean we were talking about Alistair Cook not so long ago you know what was your greatest achievement well it was staying on the field for 150 odd consecutive test matches

so you had that amazing durability M. Estonian and of course he had tremendous success well he might have success if you picked that many times to play for India was appointed India captain in 2007 he led them in 199 one day internationals and

72 T20s the only player to captain in more than 50 matches in each of the three formats. He made his debut for India back in 2004. That was his one-day debut, his test debut the following year and his T-20 debut in 2006. Excellent batting average in one-day cricket as well. He averaged 50 in one-day cricket, 50 over the course of 350 one-day internationals. And he had one, I mean, of all the memories, he had won. that stood out, if you like, above all others and that happened in Mumbai in 2011.

271 for four, India need four. Klosakrab Bowles, he smashed it, smash it high down the ground for six. Into the seething crowd it goes to complete one of the great run chases in one day to national cricket, let alone a World Cup. And Donie, well, they're all running out, there are fireworks going off, his teammates are come rushing out and they're leaping all over him what a way to finish it you can only admire this extraordinary man the temperament that he's shown here today the character and the courage that he has he was having none of it and he simply launched poor old

color sacra into the crowd for six to complete this victory with nine balls and six wickets to spare i have to say as far as drama is concerned and a finishing touch You couldn't beat that as India win the World Cup for the second time. Sonny, it's all yours. What a moment, what a moment and what a way to finish the game. The Indian captain finishing it with a huge six, a big six. That is what Indian cricket is all about now. Indian cricket is a very, very aggressive beast now.

No longer is it diffident, very, very confident of itself. itself and that shows in the manner in which they have finished the game. The Indian captain, Minder Singh Doni, hitting that huge six. Well, we'll go live to India in a moment to find out how MS Doni's retirement is going down. But first, here are the thoughts of a fellow wicketkeeper and finisher, Josh Butler, who played against Donie for England and in the IPL. Ebony Rainford Brent asked Butler how big an impact he thought MS Dony has had. Yeah, massive.

untold contribution really isn't it and I think speaking personally an idol of mine growing up and I love the way he went about it is probably India's most successful whiteball captain and I think the guys brought up his numbers

yesterday they're quite incredible aren't they so a hero to so many it's an honour to get to play against him and you see the adulation that he has from Indian fans and other fans around the world quite titanic man of cricket some likenesses to you in some ways of finisher of the game. How do you rate him in the sort of list of finishes you've seen in your

career? Yeah, the best. I think the way he goes about it, the way he puts bowlers under pressure and takes the game deep. There's some unbelievable stats about the amount of games India win when he finishes not out at the end. So, you know, he's been a great role model for so many and I love the persona he's carried throughout his career as well. You think about the weight of expectation that he walks out to bat with every time he goes to the middle, the calmness he, um, the calmness he, um, exudes in the middle is quite amazing. One thing that he has done very well is captain and keep at the same time. How hard do you think that would have been as part of his career?

Yeah, tough, but as I say, he just seems to manage chaos, doesn't he? He just seems to manage everything that was thrown at him. He's obviously got a fantastic cricket brain and, you know, playing against India a few times since Coley has been captain of the one day side. You know, Doni still has obviously a big influence of master tactician behind the stumps. And yeah, as I would say, there's probably no praise high enough. for it. Well, that's Josh Butler. With us now is our India commentator, Prakash Wakanka. Isha is here as well. He's watched him a number of times in the IPL and Mark Radprakash, former England batting

coach, I'm sure, would have admired the way Donie went about his work. Let's start with Prakash. How did it go down this retirement? Was it expected Prakash? Well, Simon, good day to all of you there. Yes, I suppose you could argue that it was but I don't think it was expected to happen the way it happened or when it happened. Just as the country was sort of going into the evening of Independence Day celebrations came this bolt out of the blue. And I think it was about seven minutes post his Instagram and message that it went into just hundreds and thousands of people across all media. I mean, phone calls, people calling each other, just consoling each other. You thought something, some sort of tragedy had happened.

The tragedy had happened. But yes, that's the kind of following he's had. We all know that. And I think the country is still grappling and letting it sink in the mixed emotions are very evident. Yeah, I mean, but he's 39. He's not played since the World Cup semi-final last year when India lost to New Zealand.

I mean, people must have sensed he was coming towards the end. Yes, yes, absolutely. I think the only question, Simon, was, would the T20 World Cup happen on schedule, which we know now is not happening. And I think there was that sort of speculation about whether he would offer himself and whether he would be picked. And Swar of Ganguly was making sort of the right kind of noises, so was Ravi Shastri, the standard line about let a person of his calibre determine when he wants to go kind of thing.

So there might even have been a tiny nudge or two. One doesn't know. But certainly it wasn't unexpected, but trust him is to do it in that very unique style of his and with a bit of poetry at the end of it too. Yeah, so it would have been a difficult one. If he wanted to play on but it didn't necessarily want him to play on, is that sort of the feeling you get? I don't know. Just from the outside, one does get that feeling, isn't it? I mean, how long will you carry on?

Would have been one of the questions. And we seem to ask the question a lot in India. We all remember the big debate of Hatendulkar going on for months, if not longer. So I suppose there was that question somewhere in people's minds, but from a popular fan-based perspective, you would only ask that question at your own peril. He's going to play on in the IPL, though. Yes, he is. In fact, he made that announcement after the first practice session in the UAE.

And, of course, as we know, Suresh Vena followed straight after. So it almost looked like CSK had planned this out. And there's a lot of speculation, Simon. I don't know if you guys there have any ideas of the timing, 1929 hours. No idea as to what that is. But one of the theories going around is that it might have to do something with an auspicious time. Because the, you know, South of India, as you know, Simon is very, very sort of obsessed almost with this whole idea of what is a good and a bad time. and somebody came up with this last evening.

I don't know, there's no confirmation that the exact time he was run out against New Zealand in that semi-final in India was 1929. I have no idea to feel, no way to confirm that. I'm just telling you the kind of stories that are going around as a result of the news last evening. Can you shed some light on this, Isha? I can't actually.

And hello to Prakash as well, who's over in India. I hope you're doing well. It's just classic don'ty. I think, just to leave us with all this speculation. And Gorof Kalra, who is an Indian journalist, wrote on Twitter yesterday, very few interactions with MS Stoney over the years. And I am only venturing a guest here, but he is likely having a quiet chuckle to himself

that discomfort of sports journalists scrambling to handle this on a Saturday evening. I mean, I actually agree with that. I mean, when you've watched Emma Stoney across his career, he is the epitome of India, in a way, a land of contrasts you think about him and how private he could be but also very open you know he didn't give much away in the media you almost felt like you didn't get to know the real MS Thoney but in his home life you know he was very private with that and

certainly with his teammates I know that he was very open so you know as captain he would have his door wide open so people could come in and out as they pleased you know someone who was anti-establishment, but then could also tow the party line, someone who was super cool out in the middle, but could be explosive when he wanted to be. And, yeah, I just think that was his perfect way of sending the message that he was going to retire. What about his, take us back to his background. He came from Ranchi, which is a backwater, really, of Indian cricket. And now, of course, there's a magnificent stadium there, which we've been to and England

have played there. Is it a sort of going from humble origins to incredible fame? Is that the story we look at here with M.S. Tony? Yeah, so, you know, a lot of people will say that because I think

whether it's Ranchi as a place or whatever, I think it is the fact that he started this sort of movement inadvertently I think where people from small towns suddenly started believing that they could make it on the big stage up until then or you know for several years decades of Indian cricket which you all of you have followed it was a preserve of the four or five big metro cities I mean there were days when if there was one player less than seven in the Indian team from Mumbai people would ask questions and yet you saw what happened with that period though I must

think, I must credit Saur of Ganguli and Kieran Morey, who was chairman of selectors then, I think for widening the net, if you will, BCCI's talent program also unearths a lot of people. Yuvraj, Harbajan, Dhan, Dhan, you know, all these guys came through that sort of process. But yes, for a small town boy, and like Isha rightly said, in many ways, a very private person, remember his retirement from Test Match cricket in the middle of the Australia series, He's, again, caught all the journalists completely by surprise at a post-Matchcraft conference. I think that's who he is. He is somebody who has lived his life on his own terms, has had a share of ups and downs like everybody else does.

But I think that belief that he instilled in the nation as a whole, that it didn't matter where your roots were or where you came from. It is what you did in your chosen endeavor that would determine your place. what about him as a cricketer as well I mean I remember the first time I saw him he was playing those outrageous strokes the helicopter shot and he was an extremely attacking player

he was outrageous batsman actually I remember that test match in Mumbai where he India were trying to well notionally trying to save it on the last day and he was smashing the ball down the ground and Panasar dropped him and then he gave another chance to Panasar off shore Newdale

and Panasar caught it this time and I remember going to watch him playing in the one-day series afterwards and he played that amazing helicopter shot in Goa that became his trademark. But then he sort of changed his way of playing. He went from being outrageous to sort of his deadly, cool finisher.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you just look back to his debut back in 2004, which he worked incredibly hard for it. It didn't come for him straight away. And I think that was much to his frustration. Eventually got the opportunity against Bangladesh. He was run out for naught.

And then, you know, four games later, he's scoring 148 against Pakistan at Vizag, which became a place very close to his heart. And that's where we saw the real M.S. Thoney. And he was always aggressive, you know, growing up, playing locally to domestically. He was always that kind of wanted to make things happen. Looked relatively unorthodox when he was out in the middle. But really just fed off the first. fact that he could change a game situation and yeah as he evolved as a cricketer he became

you know arguably the best finisher in the world game and and you know many emulate his his runchase mindset the theory that the deeper you take it there is a tipping point whereby there is more pressure on the bowlers and that's when he pounces and that was very much his method um certainly towards at the end of his career um someone you know astonishing astonishing ability, the helicopter shot that you mentioned, that everyone now tries to try to copy, you know, from kids up until adults. They all want to play that shot. And, you know, that came from playing a lot of badminton. He loves his badminton. He still plays it now. He played it to keep fit. But as I say, just someone who really just tried to kind of to make himself

better as a cricket. It wasn't just the cricketing skills on the pitch. it was also his fitness, you know, trained with the army so that he could maintain those levels of fitness and sustain being able to play, you know, back-to-back games in limited over's cricket, but also in test matches. And, you know, he served his country incredibly well. Yeah, because it takes an enormous amount out of you as well

to be wicket-keeper, captain and batsman. I'm just on that point about, you know, changing his game because he was an outrageous striker of the ball when he first started. He thought, could he actually survive in international cricket playing this way? Because he would just go for it and, you know, it would leave you vulnerable. Of course it does. And then he did, how difficult is it to make that change, do you think, as a batsman? Well, afternoon everyone, I'm Prakash and in India afternoon.

Look, I think MS. Doni, like a lot of players, they come onto the scene, and often they play in a very natural, aggressive way. And then they realize, well, I've got to make a habit of this. got to be perhaps search for a little more consistency and sometimes they can adapt and that I guess the best players do adapt actually to become more consistent. I mean I thought he brought many things to the Indian side clearly as a batsman he brought power actually and in particularly in the one-day format where power has been increasingly sought after particularly in the middle of your batting line up and towards the death overs. So I

I think that was an important thing and he came along just at the right time for India with the T20 becoming more prevalent. I mean, he was also quite good off the back foot which is not necessarily something that a lot of the Indian players gravitate towards naturally and yet he could play the short ball very well.

So that was an important thing. I mean, his wicket keeping was perhaps rough and ready at times but if you give him a sniff of a stumping he generally took it. He had magnificent hands and was so quick when an opportunity arose to take a wicket as a stumping through his wicket-keeping. So I think as a player, he brought steel to an Indian team. You know, there was a lot of exciting talents around him. But although the crowd and the one-day cricket had an exuberance and excitement and vibrancy about it,

Doni remained incredibly calm and he was at the centre of the storm and I think all Indian supporters watching their team if Doni was there they remained fairly calm looking at Doni's stumping statistics he'd take more stumpings than any other wicket international cricket, 195

38 in tests that's the third most of joint third most of all time behind two players from the long distant past Bert O'Field and Godfrey Evans and level with another Indian and side kirmany, 123 in one-day international cricket, which is the most ever, and 34 in T20 international cricket, also the most ever.

In terms of captaining as a wicket-keeper, 332 games he captained India in as keeper. No other player has captained in more than 100 matches as keeper. That was Safraz Ahmed, had exactly 100 in. Doni's 60 tests. The next most is 28, 200 one-day internationals, the next most is 50 and 72 T20 internationals as keeper captain the next most is 37 so he is a truly extraordinary figure in terms of the role he played in the Indian team and that level of fitness as well yeah quickest sounds in the east that's what people used to call them but yeah the fitness and you know you just look at the outpouring of love for him since he made his retirement and Virac Koli very much at the helm of that really just kind of respected him from when he first got into the Indian team to all the support that he received

when he became captain you know he he does put emersoni up on a pedestal and there's a reason for that because he he changed the game for India you know running in parallel with India becoming this massive powerhouse as well the 2007 T20 World Cup win where you know India probably didn't take T20 cricket that seriously. but this is what Verac Koli said every cricketer has to end his journey one day but still when someone you've gotten to know so closely announces that decision

and I can't actually bring the rest of that because it's blocked but the mutual respect and what I've received from you will always stay in mind the world has seen achievements I've seen the person thanks for everything Skip I tip my hat to you and you mentioned the fitness

these two running between the wickets even towards the end there. I mean, you look back to the One Day World Cup and even before that. Just that that was part of their game. Batting out and the middle together and running fielders ragged. I remember watching a

match in Australia where David Warner was at long on and even he couldn't stop them from scoring a two. And he's one of the quickest to the ball. So I think yeah, that just kind of encapsulates who he was as a person as a cricketer that he wanted to keep improving.

How does it compare his retirement, Prakash, to Satchin Tendulka's retirement. I'm sure, I was sure that was going to come, Simon. I think two very different people in many ways. I mean, look, there was, I think, a very large part of India also, which reluctantly had been preparing for Satchin's retirement. He went out with this big planned series, some often say a series that was set up only for him.

and therefore there was the anticipation had time to find sort of manifestation if you will in many different ways in donny's case as we've talked just a moment ago it was all very sudden just the way he announced his his marriage to sarkhi or just the way he announced his retirement from test match cricket that was dony and so i don't think you can compare the two in terms of the the method of retirement or the build up to it because in don'ty's case there was none I do believe that in the newer India, in today's India, the resonance that Dhani has goes beyond cricket. And I actually like to say, I wrote this in a short piece somewhere a little while ago, that, you know, the M.S. Doni, the cricketer, isn't really the story.

That's the story that has limited shelf life and that retired last night. To me, Dhani is the mindset. And that is a universal, timeless mind. which I don't think can ever retire because it's done that to inspire a nation, a nation of youngsters, a nation of people, across both genders, mind you, you look at the women's team today and Isha would probably know more about it, but you look at the girls who are playing cricket for India or aspiring to, they've seen him as a hero. And where he began, I think there is a lot to do with this helicopter shot that Isha was talking about just a little while ago. He actually picked it up playing tennis ball cricket and he picked it from a mate of a helicopter shot that Isha was talking about just a little while ago. He actually picked it up playing tennis ball cricket and he picked it from a mate of called Santosh Lal in Ranchi on those dirt grounds with no pitches or anything of that sort. And so that's who he was. He's always been a mate. He's, I think, as a human being, he's phenomenal.

I remember that one comment after the 2010 T20 World Cup, India had lost, I think, to Australia, it was in the West Indies. And I was chatting with him after the post-match. And he said, so I said, my answer, what are you going to do now? And this was his comment. He said, I'm going back home to play with my dogs because they are the only ones who treat me exactly the same whether I come back having lost or coming back with the silverware. I think that just tells you what kind of person he is.

And his impact, I think, is going to be a much bigger one on India. That's really fascinating, Prakash. And I find it even more fascinating because of what happened. happens to you as a cricketer I can imagine when you're playing in India to go from humble beginnings to suddenly this big star and you've seen it so many times in India where you know it it almost takes hold in a way and he's very much wanted to stay as humble as possible even as the captain of the side I know that you know he's offered business class on a number of occasions that flying between states in

India and he will often give it up to, you know, a teammate. He wants to sit at the back with everyone else. So, yeah, that is an insight into his character. It is. The last seat in the team bus, I think Virat mentioned that again in some interview yesterday. Always in the last seat of the bus. Always, even when he was captain, he would do the honors of receiving the trophy or whatever and then immediately hand it over to a colleague.

You would typically see Doni in team pictures in one corner. of the group photograph and you know one could go on and narrate so many stories i know recently about four five months ago a tractor was delivered to his uh to his farmhouse because he'd ordered one and the five people who went to deliver it isha this man made them stay back had lunch prepared and sat and had lunch with them that's just who he is it comes naturally to him I think he doesn't have to, he doesn't play to the galleries. And I think that allows him to be who he is. And therefore, I think those of us who see him

are able to see what he really is, both on and off the field. So you're saying, Prakash, that he's had more influence on India and Indian cricket than Sachin? I'm saying on the youth of India. I think on the cricket, it will be foolhardy for me to say that, you know, anyone will come close to Sachin. but he will run him pretty close. And remember, I mean, Satchen was 10 years ago or more.

And I think, you know, howsoever great you are, memory fades. And I think, therefore, in this India today, this whole situation with the pandemic, you know, everybody locked in at home, thinking back, looking at old things. A generation, my nephew actually just messaged me last night. And he wrote a little piece where, again, I'm not going to bother to read it out. But his message was for us as a generation that grew up on Doni, it marks the end of our childhood. We realize today that after 15, 16 years of seeing him, it's time for us to grow up and carry on. That's the kind of emotion coming out from just common kids who are now sort of into their late 20s or early 30s.

It's remarkable the kind of impact he's had. It is extraordinary, though, Prakash, that a man who, you know, is. so humble, but then, and so private as well, that he decided to release his film, the untold story while he was still playing for India. I mean, I can't even imagine how vulnerable he would have felt with that going out to the world and everyone suddenly knowing everything about his life and, you know, personal tragedy as well within that. Yes. Yes. That's a very good question isha and i think again uh producing the film i suppose the film would have been made by the producer anyway uh either as an official or an unofficial biopic and and knowing ms he's the kind

of guy who as you've said yourself has chosen to be open but on his terms how and and that that that story the way he worked and it's a it's a real tragedy today that the person who played ms dony is no longer in the world with us either which is another tragedy which is nothing you do with cricket. But the fact that he chose to come out, I think it was in a way you look back on it today and you might almost say that it was a preparation to share his story and knowing that he was in the twilight

and he was going to soon sort of hang up his boots. But that's the unpredictable nature, if you will, of Donie. You never know what he'd do. What is he going to do? I mean, we know he's going to play for Chennai Super Kings, What is he going to do next, though? Do we know? Well, I mean, we're all speculating. We're all speculating, Simon. But look, he's got this, he's an honorary left and colonel in the parachute regiment

of the territorial army. He's not just a ceremonial left colonel. I know he's traveled up into the areas in Kashmir, including the terrorist affected ones. He trains very hard in the Ranchi regimental center. He often goes on these trips with the troops to. try and encourage them and motivate them spends time with them that's one part uh literally he could choose to be what he wants to be but if i was to bet i think we're not going to see a very public persona of don't see him accepting a nomination to the upper house of parliament like satchen i don't see him contesting uh the the elections like several of the cricketers

including people like azuruddin have done i just see him doing his own quiet work in chosen areas of charity that he may have and living his life on his terms doing and participating in events and activities that he would like. He's once said that he will never sit in a commentary box and talk about players on the ground. Lots of people say that, Pracash, though, didn't they? Lots of people say that. I'm not hinting at anyone, Simon. But, you know, we'll have to wait and see if he'll not do that.

And I won't be surprised if he doesn't, because the reason he gave was, look, by the time I get to sitting in the Combox, the game will have changed enough for me not to know enough about it. That was his point of view, right? So, you know, you don't know what the man will do. But, you know, like Isha said, I think he's a private person. He's got the world at his feet in some ways in terms of determining what he wants to do. And I think it will be another bolt out of the blue when we really. come to North. Or the moment he'll be wanting to get IPL

title to CSK, I suppose. Yeah. What were his best innings? What innings, performances stand out for you? I mean, presumably the World Cup final, we heard that. Any others? Or is that so far ahead of anything? No. No, no, no. For me,

Simon, the game against Sri Lanka in Jaipur, I think it was his third or fourth game, if memory serves me right. I think he scored about 180-od. when Tendulkar was out very early and came in at number three where Saurav had promoted him.

And he smashed 183 and everybody. I mean, it was like a sandstorm and hit Jaipur. I can never forget that in his. I was fortunate to be actually commentating on it. It was unreal. Then those, there are several innings in the IPL, of course,

where he's sort of come back and scored 26 runs in the last over, consecutive sixes at the end. the 2011 World Cup final of course again that decision to promote himself the double hundred in the test match against australia scored almost at a ball of run a ball so you know the number of winnings is just you could go on you'll have to look at all of them but the fact is that for him to take india over the line was was so so crucial and he did it so many times i think we were all there at at the semi-final against New Zealand and the crowd was chanting in Hindi Dhoni Karega, Doni will do it and you know

howsoever hopeless the situation was you almost believed that that fairy tale could never go wrong and I think in some ways it's prophetic that he was run out in his last international trainings as well just the way he began his career and somewhere I think that

most of us I think knew that it'll take a lot of luck to see him in India colors again Does it make you marvel sometimes wonder, Isha, how, you know, you've been there, you've seen it, the focus on one person, you know, around cricket, but cricket is such an important part of life in India. Everyone is looking at you. How do people deal with that?

I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't know. But, I mean, we saw it with Sachin, didn't we? And prior to that, Sunul Gavaskar and Kapoldev and. key members of that 1983 team it's just something that you learn to deal with

I think certainly with the event of the IPL as well players coming through the system they become accustomed to it a lot more just the packed houses the noise the passion the support for your team

I mean MS Doney was one player that he could go anywhere and he would receive that kind of adulation. I remember doing a game up in Mahali. Was it last year or the year before? And he was obviously playing for CSK, but he was out of the middle. And he had the loudest cheer of the night

because he just carried it everywhere he went. And it's something you look at these players and you can either be burdened by it or you absolutely just lap it up. And I think he was one of those players that just lapped it up. Yeah. You just actually love the adulation. You can deal with it. Does that resonate with you, Rabji?

I mean, do you find it hard to imagine what it would be like to be under that sort of scrutiny the whole time? Absolutely. I do find it really hard. You know, for a human being to play on the field is one thing in front of full houses. But to when they go home or they go out to a restaurant, I think that I really can't imagine that. And I think a lot of the Indian players actually quite like coming to. to London, or certainly when they've been on tour in the UK, because it's a bit more low-key for them and they can get out and about.

I think that's something that gives a good insight, really, to Doni's mindset and how he can cope with that sort of adulation is his social media post, which I'm not very well up on social media at all. But when he retired, he has, and I think Prakash is alluding to it, he has put out a series of photos that capture certain points in his career alongside a Bollywood song, which says, I am only momentarily a poet. These few moments define who I am. They tell my whole story

that just like there was a poet before me, there will be many more after me better than me. And I think that captures quite a lot about the man, really, is that he has been able to have this truly amazing career, so high profile. You know, we've heard all about the stats. It's been absolutely brilliant and he's rightly got all the adulation

and yet in his own mind he has remained incredibly grounded. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, some really interesting thoughts on the career of MS. Dony, thanks to Simon and all of his guests. So we are really hoping for more action on the final day.

You can watch highlights of what we did have on the fourth day on the BBC support website or the app. And we're back on air, crossing fingers. as 1015.