Test Match Special - Day 5: England win the series as Broad joins the 500 club

Episode Date: July 28, 2020

Jonathan Agnew presents from Old Trafford where England have won the third Test and the series against West Indies. It was a momentous day for Stuart Broad as he became only the second Englishman to take 500 Test wickets. Aggers, Michael Vaughan and Carlos Brathwaite review the series while we get reaction from Broad and the respective captains, Joe Root and Jason Holder. Broad's partner-in-crime Jimmy Anderson discusses their close relationship on and off the pitch, plus there are further tributes from former England skipper Alastair Cook and the chairman of the club where Broad played as a youngster.

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looking back on England's 269 run victory in the third and deciding test at Emirates Old Trafford. To come, we'll have all the reaction, including from Stuart Broad, which took his 500th wicket today, and one of analysis from Michael Vaughn and Carlos Brathwaite. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Carlos, how do you reflect on this series as a whole?

I think the team ran out of steam. They would have been here for a month before the first test. I guess it would have been chomping at the bit to get out and play in Southampton. They did. And I think that game is the blueprint for how West Indies will win majority of the games, bowling the opposition out for under 300, batting and getting somewhat close to it, hopefully over it. and then again back in the bowlers to give them less than 300 to chase.

I think 300 at this moment is the magic number. They obviously haven't gotten close to it in this test, but there's a sense that even within the toss, the captain and the management staff aren't confident enough in the batting unit to say let's back first. And I think when I play for Barbados and Craig Bradford is captain, we know if we turn up to play on his sand, water or whatever, we know that once Craig Barthet win the toss, we're going to back first.

and we custom getting 300, 350, 400. And the opposite is true for the rest in these teams. So I think the bowling lineup has settled itself a bit. And the pleasing thing for me is the progression that they would have shown. First test, down the channel it worked. Second test, down the channel, it didn't work. And they then would have seen what England would have done. They came into the third test.

Then you saw a lot more short balls being bowled, a bigger effort to incorporate the sharp balls. So they obviously learned from test to test. It's a lot easier to learn and implement your learning as a bowler as opposed to being a batsman. You have to reprogram and rework all the things you would have done. And the batting lineup just wasn't skillful enough to handle Broaden Anderson. And there's no disrespect to them. They've been more senior, more acclaimed batsmen, batting partnerships, batting lineups

that have failed in English conditions and have failed under the pressure of Stuart Broad and Jimmy Anderson. but it's important for them to go and learn from it. I think 2017 would have been a bit too early in their careers. It would just be a case of coming and failing and learning, but they probably didn't know how to implement it. They would have gone away from that, put up some decent numbers in different conditions, come back a more knowledgeable side but still not as skillful.

The challenge is now to move on from this defeat. And if they come back to England a year, two years later, then for there to be a lot more improvement on this performance is a batting unit. What's the one thing or two things that they need to work on? They need to learn playing in England? I think getting a stride in

and is not necessarily a massive stride with your front foot, but getting your head forward and over the ball, your foot will react as a response to your head getting forward. A lot of time they've been happy to just play from the crease

and when the ball hits the bat and you think you play late then it's fine. But when the ball tracks back has has been the problem throughout the series, then you're searching with your hands. Majority of them have come over to off-stamp on middle and off

to kind of negate the nick-off and the expansive drive because that is how they play the cricket. So it's a two-edged sword. You stay on middle-stump and you get nicked off or you go over to off-stump and you worry about getting trapped to W-W. But I think Port got hit

just outside and he's just the stride alone that saved him. And That is a lesson for them going forward. The Caribbean pitch is a slower, so they will have to get into it. And I think with the advent of the short ball and trying to be balanced enough to get back to play the short ball, they stop them from coming out. But they need to then find ways,

if I think batting at my best is going to be me coming out and driving the ball or me coming out and defending, then practicing to play the short ball from that base of actually looking to get forward, looking to drive, looking to defend on the front foot. and not worrying about the short ball because Jason Holder played it perfectly. Michael alluded to it.

He watched the ball. He was on the front foot. If it was too short, he ducked onto it, he watched it all the way. And the bowled was five overs of short balls at Jason Holder. After he played it, as well as he did,

it was like cool. We need to go back down the channel like him. That obviously isn't affecting his footwork. But any time you bowl short balls at a batter and he starts to jump like Dowich did or take his eyes off the ball, you just always think this though you're in with a chance. You come over the wicket then, and you know you have two options.

Now the short ball that they're uncomfortable with or the full of ball because you know they're not going to get forward because of the short ball. So it's just that confidence in the game to understand and appreciate and accept that their best strength is getting into the ball, whether they drive it, all the boys are brilliant drivers of the ball. Get into the ball, drive the ball, and likewise, if the ball's just back of a line that you can't drive, still get your weight into the ball, employ your forward defense,

and when the short ball comes, watch it all the way along. Probably, the only good hookers in the team probably be Jason Holder. He would take the short ball on, and John Campbell. All the others were ducked and refrain from playing a shot, so you then need to back your forward defense

or your drive because you're not going to score off the short ball. What about changes? What about players that after this tour, selectors might say actually time to take a break I think Shea Hope's name would come up for debate and more so because of

the luxury I guess of Darren Bravo, Shemron Hetmaier if I had to pick a team tomorrow from everyone available I think Hettinger would get in before Shea Hope Brooks would go to three potentially chase four

Hetmaier 5 Blackwood 6 or Blackwood 5 Hetmaier 6 Shane Dowrich I don't think would be looking over his shoulders yet but Joshua the Silver has thrown up a canny little bit of debate he's got the only hundred on tour

in the Warwick game he opened the batting then but he don't think he's opened the batting since so they played another game and he bought it at five or six he obviously took the gloves in the second innings so you see that there's a keeper there if Shea Hope was in farm and Dorwich was not you'd think drop Shea Hope

down when him take the gloves would you want to push Joshua the Silver into opening after one solid year of first class cricket? So there's a bit of debate there and these are the times that you don't be emotional you don't just think we failed as a batting unit make three or four changes because that has a negative effect

because John Campbell will go back to first class cricket he'll score runs and then he'll come back Joshua the Silver may have a rough time just to get started and then you see a situation as you had with Devon Smith where you bring him in, he play four tests, you drop him back to first class cricket, 500, 600, 700 runs, you pick him for four tests. That doesn't help neither Devon Smith or the people that he's replacing. So you may have to take the tough decision and say, John Campbell, you're in for the next series, potentially even the next series after that, but it would give Jeremy

Solisano, who's back home, Shane Mosley, who's on this trip, Joshua de Silva, who's on this strip a chance amongst themselves and give another young guy a chance to fight at first class level for that one spot as opposed to chuck in one of them into early. When I was playing with Ginger Chandrika, he got rushed in at a deep end, good player, but wasn't ready for test cricket level, and then you find yourself having to keep him on for an extra series, then a extra series, and then he dropped him, and he's never regained his play since. They much rather than those guys find defeat at first class level and they come to international grade

when you think they're ready to get a full run. Michael, what have you made of West Indies in this series? I think the last two weeks it's just been a little bit too far for them in terms of the gulfing quality playing against this kind of England side in these conditions, clouds around, the Duke ball, a bit of movement. It's not easy.

That first week surprised me. I've been looking at that from an England perspective thinking, you know, having seen the way that the Westings have played the last two weeks, you know, I'll be looking at again, you've got to look at it a bit cynically and go, how do you lose a test match to the team that we've seen play the last two weeks? But it was because the Weston has produced a wonderful performance. England weren't quite at the races. The batting didn't stand up to high-class scene bowling.

And I think that's where probably the Westiners have really struggled, the fact that they couldn't freshen up that scene bowling department. you know the batting as carl has said they're a batting unit that can get 300 and again I look back to the toss this week and thought wait a minute jason you've got two offspiners surely you've got to bat first you've won the toss you've just got to ask him a different question to what they were asked last week would it have made the result different I don't think so might have lasted a little bit longer it might have been a closer contest but I just think England are a better team in these conditions but we owe the westerners a great deal you know

I think the game of cricket in the UK, I dread to think where it would be without the West Indies agreeing to come over and play this series. The finances were so important for our game. And I just hope in time that the Westerners are rewarded with maybe a series or two, or I'm sure the handouts from the Power 3 might have to differ going forward

to try and help teams like the Westers out more with finances to improve their game. But the series doesn't surprise me. It's surprised me that it wasn't 3-0. That is a surprise for me. What have we learnt from England? We've learned that, you know, Dom Sibley at the top of the order, I don't quite get a little bit of negative chat about him.

I know he's a player that plays with great attrition. I know he's not probably going to be the one that you rush out the bar to watch, but as a team in Test Match cricket, he's the kind of play you desperately need. So we should be applauding his style of play for the England side because we've been crying out for that. that kind of player for a few years. I guess the spin department will be, again,

a little bit of concern for England. We didn't see Donbess at all this week. But ultimately, I don't think, I mean, I don't think we've found out a huge amount about the side because these are English conditions that they play so well in. Let's get some reaction from the England camp. Now, Jonathan Agnew is down in the rain.

Yeah, it's just started, Joe. I'm sorry about this. Do you want to get your umbrella up quickly? there you are, it's just started to pour with rain, just as, oh no, that's, his umbrella's got inside out. That's not a good look. You're not having to repair, prepare Joe Roots umbrella. There you go, right, look at it.

That rather sums everything up. Well done, Jay. I must be delighted. Yeah, brilliant performance. Since that partnership between Hopi and Josh, really, I thought we've been in control of the game from that point onwards. And our bowling performance this week was actually, exceptional, I think, throughout both innings.

And I think 300 partnerships with the bat, which is another stride forward in that department. So I feel like we're really growing as a team. We've always been quite a hard team to beat in these conditions, but this last couple of games, I feel like things are really coming together for us. And we've just got to keep looking to improve, learn, and keep getting better all the time. And to come back from 1-0 down, that's only happened,

I think it's 2008 was the last time I've managed to do that in a three-match series. You'll be pleased with that. very pleased and we knew we had a few things to contend with today the weather being one of them but something slightly crazy about this yeah but the way as I said the way the guys have bowled all the last two weeks have

been outstanding and you know you look at the headaches ahead of the series in terms of selection and things like that it's a great position to be in with guys being out of coming and putting brilliant performances and I'm sure you'll get to this but Stuart's been unbelievable

this week but as well it's going to the fastest 50 or one of the fastest 50s from his position in the order and with the ball he's just been exceptional yeah and to put himself out there as he did after the first test you've really set himself up in a way

yeah it's worked a treat hasn't it so really pleased for him and to 500 wickets is an incredible achievement 10th for in the game as well you know I couldn't be more pleased for him I really couldn't I've been training with him in the lockdown period

at Trent Bridge and watching the hard work he's been doing and the different skills he's been even now still developing so to see all that hard work pay off out in the middle I'm really pleased for him it's interesting now the selection isn't it I mean it's not easy

leaving out these bowlers and you see what happens when he leave him out it gets grumpy I mean how do you handle it well I think it's I mean it's worked out very well in the end we've won the series and throughout that we've had a good look

at a number of different guys, different combinations, and we're learning all the time in that department. But as I said, for Stuart to come in and make an impact on the series like he has done, is testament to how good a player he is. I'm sure he don't say something about the West Indies, the fact that they've come here. Yeah, it's an amazing effort from them as a side. Not only have they played really good hard cricket out on the field, I think the way they've gone about it and the way Jason's led them,

testament to them and their team. and in this tough time to come out here and to give the world international cricket throughout a very tough period for so many people across the globe is amazing things, so very appreciative of them being part of this series and also, you know, they play some really good cricket too.

You're going home, Joe. Yeah, looking forward to it. It does feel good. It feels very strange saying that in an English summer, but the guys are all very much looking forward to getting away, spending some time with loved ones

and now then coming back and join the second half of it all. Okay. Haircuts all round? I'm not sure I'll be able to get one in. I'm kidding. There's some strict rules in place for haircuts. Oh, still? Of course, yeah, we've got to make sure we do the right thing

and we'll look after the bubble. So I'm sure there's a few lads that will look very different next time you see them. Well on, Joe, thanks to talk to us. Cheers, thank you. In these conditions as well. It's absolutely throwing it down. You'll have heard, I suspect, the rain on the umbrellas there.

Now, okay, I just, hang, I think I can see Stuart Broad here. Stuart? Are you allowed to come? Come on. No, he's going over there. Sorry, Danny, I'm being bossy. He's been here. I think they're about with the presentations, but it's going to be a shambles,

because it's pouring with rain. So it's a question of trying to hold his umbrellas up. Well done, Joe Root for doing that interview. I can see Jason Holder making his way over. Michael, did you pick anything up out of that? I mean, that selection thing is interesting. I remember by captain's perspective, you know, obviously. Oh, it's great to have all these bowlers, but it's not easy managing it.

No, but he responded to said. You know, they've won the series. You know, I guess in hindsight, they may feel that they got it wrong because you want to start the series well, England continuously go 1-0 down and that's a concern, particularly against the better teams away from him, you're just not going to get away with that. But let's not forget, it was the batsman that didn't arrive in Southampton.

We can make it the narrative of Stuart Broad not playing because he's done so well here, but you go back to that fourth afternoon, Ben Stokes, Zach Crawley, were completely controlling the test match. They were batted like they should have done, batted into that fifth day, I'm pretty sure England would have won that test match comfortably. We wouldn't have even discussed it. So, yes, it was an issue. Yes, it's a talking point.

Yes, it's a lovely narrative, but you know, they've won the series and Stuart Brod has done exactly what he's done many, many times. Every time he's been doubted or prodded, he's generally had the last laugh and what a laugh he's had this week with 10th for and a 50. Wonderful performance. Well, he's the England player of the series.

Rost and Chase is the West Indian player of the series. I might get Jason instead. That's nice. Thank you. very much indeed he's going to pop over quickly i think very quickly yeah it's it's all a bit ad hoc there's umbrellas everywhere it's it's pouring the rain jason it's a bizarre way for it all to finish but thank you for coming to see us how do you feel disappointed with how it's all panned out in the end yeah definitely disappointed um yeah i felt we were definitely out played here in this test

match um credit must be given to england i think they played in our standard test series you know to fight back the way they did uh i've thought that guys we had a lot of positives in our group You know, probably one of the biggest disappointments that we didn't get 100 in the series. But overall, it wasn't a bad series for us, but just unfortunately, away. Could you have freshened up the bowling attack? I mean, you asked a lot of them in this series.

Yeah, it's a hard one to debate, man. You know, you're looking to clincher test series. You know, you're probably looking to play the strongest team. You know, we've not had cricket for a little well, and we, you know, we don't really have the luxury rotation that's probably, you do have... But in hindsight, you know, you can look back and say a few things, but more or less, you know,

we wanted to win this series, and, you know, we felt so we need to put our best team out. Yeah, and what's been a real positive for you in the course of this series? What will you take away most? No, just to fight, you know, I think the guys fought really well. You know, we had a lot of starts with the bat, you know, from various players in the team. And I know, obviously our bowling, you know, has definitely stood up again, you know. Some tough conditions here in Manchester particularly, but the test match I thought we won in.

So Fempton was a really well-played test match, and I think our bowlers must have given credit for the way they performed. Yeah. And your team as a whole, seven weeks, you've been, well, six of them, in that hope, hotel behind you there and just that one week's break in Southampton in another bubble was it harder than you thought it might be even yeah definitely harder um mentally obviously is a bit draining you know just seeing the same environment not being able to leave um yeah it has been a challenge mentally and you know more or less you know we've got to find ways to to get you know get some more activity going on um it's only so much you can do inside a team room with a few activities but you know more or less

people need to need to change and scenery change the environment but I guess it is what it is we're still thankful that we were able to play some cricket hopefully we can get some more cricket at the end of the year but everything is up it's more obviously with the situation with COVID

so I guess we take it in strides you look forward to going home yeah definitely looking forward to going home it's been a while you know good to see the family again and you know refresh recharge your batteries and then head off to CPL well on behalf of everybody

of our listeners thank you all for coming thank you so much it's been really as you know, crucial for English cricket and I'm really glad you're taking something away as well thank you thank you thank you there we go well he's a lovely fellow talks so nicely

as well and there we go he's off to go and talk to BBC television I think now he's giving Joe Routel the thump on the fist there as it goes past still waiting for Stuart Broad he's holding up a bright red umbrella

over to our right so we'll just wait and see when he'll come over here but hopefully he'll be coming over shortly Carlos any thoughts that you had there

from the skipper one that as I thought you know just mentally you're talking about international sport and

Dorwich is not your most elegant keeper but if we could use him as an example the way he played in Southampton with authority he didn't obviously

face much of Don Best since the way he kept as well remember him taking a fantastic catch and just think the way finished I think his performance from match one to match three epitomized the way the West Indies performed as well

in match one everyone had looked up for it and is almost as though being in the bubble for the previous four weeks gave them an extra a extra drive in that first test you were so happy to get out there

and everybody was buzzing and the intensity was up. And then you had to drive up to Manchester. Everybody looked a bit leggy. Three days later, you're back into another test. And it just got progressively worse since that first day in the second test. So I'd say his transformation from match one to Matt Street, epitomized and summed up the US Indies decline as well.

Right. Stuart Broad is coming over. He's umpteenth interview over there. I think, is it stopped raining? No, sorry, Stuart, I'm just pop mine up again. So I've got one of these microphones that might explode if it gets wet, I think. So hang on a sec, there we go, wind up. Well, where do we start?

Well, we've timed that well, haven't we? That's a good thing. Where do we start? What a day, what a triumph, what a series for you? And bearing about what the starting point was. Yeah, I mean, I chatted to you at the Rose Bowl, didn't I? and I was, I said that I was frustrated and angry and stuff. And I was really down that week,

but I've got some brilliant people around me to pick me up. And, you know, I knew I was bowling well. I knew I felt in good rhythm. So it was great to get an opportunity when we got here to be able to, you know, have the chance to take some wickets. And I couldn't, I don't, you know, I feel in a great rhythm. I've been looking to hit the stumps, make batsmen play, and the pitches have suited that with some sort of slow nibble,

bringing the LBWs into play. But, you know, I feel great. Great. I'm looking forward to a little break at home. I think we get four days after this biosecure we came in on the 23rd of June. But also, I'm looking forward to playing again. You know, when you're in these sort of relaxed rhythms and you feel like you can cause batsman problem, you want to be bowling overs.

Are you more comfortable after Southampton now? I mean, you must have asked some questions, and did you get... Oh, no, my water's gone. It's all over my shoes. Did you get... Did you get answers and explanations that you wanted? Yeah, I did, actually. I had a really good chat with Silverwood and Ed Smith.

And to be honest, it was always unrealistic to think that any scene would play all six of these test matches this summer with them being back-to-back and workloads and stuff. I was just disappointed that I wasn't chosen for that first game, but I sort of knew deep down I would get an opportunity. And you know me, if I get challenged or if I, you know, if I feel like there's something to, a bit of a point to prove, you know, I'm a competitive person anyway, but I came to Manchester with the bit between my teeth,

and it does feel really good to have been able to put some performances in. I think, you know, it's not as if the management staff were thinking that I couldn't do it anymore, because my record over the last 18 months, particularly, has been pretty strong, but it's always good to be on winning sides for England and have contributed to winning test matches, because, you know, when you cross 30 almost, it's easy to write you off. When you're 34, it's much easier to write you off.

But I hope I've quietened the writer's offer for a little bit. Yeah, but to be man of the series, having missed a third of it, I mean, in terms of all your achievements, this would rank pretty high, wouldn't it? It does feel very special. And particularly in the sort of environment we've been staying in, obviously you've been a part of that as well. It is different. You can't get away from the cricket ground.

You are living, breathing it. all of the time so that you do put yourself under a bit of pressure and I think that's why I felt particularly low at the Adjiaz Bowl because I was left out and it was hard to really get a break and get away from it so you know I do I do there is a slightly different pressure when you're fully in an environment like this but you know I think when when you are when I've come out the other other side and bowling well and taking wickets it also makes you want to keep going and keep bowling So go on then today Were you searching for a little bit there

To be honest It was really windy today Which probably one of the windiest conditions We've played in in England And I think that gave us hope And the fact that when it did rain The wind was going to blow through the rain Pretty quickly

But also relatively unsettling I felt like it was blowing me Around a little bit when I was bowling So I sort of missed my length quite a few times And to be honest I don't think as a unit Until Woksey got going We didn't bowl particularly well

today, but I think we were going to take a few boundaries to try and finish this game as quickly as possible. We had 98 overs to play with, but in all honesty, I don't think we were ever thinking that we'd get 98 in, so we were going to try and take wickets as soon as possible. And we said, look, if we're going to miss, miss on the full side, because you can still nick a full ball on a slow pitch. And then once wickets started falling, Woksey, who's been bowling beautifully all summer, arguably for me, pick of the bowlers, having watched him perform all the way through got his rewards

today. Odds on you claiming breath weight after you and Jimmy Anderson are so close you've had this extraordinary relationship together what would the odds on that be? It's breathtaking isn't it? It's sort of stars aligning stuff really. He came to me yesterday

we were watching in the physio room and he said you know your 500's going to be don't you? I was like go on and he said it's going to be breath weight I was like, no chance. So much has to align for that. You know, it would have to be a third wicket,

so I've got a couple from the other end, and he's still going, and there it is. When he got on strike, Jimmy was just at mid-off going, you know, I've told you, I told you. I mean, that's just, we're great friends. We will be for life, and that's something that we'll smile about for a long time, because that is so strange that both of our 500th wickets were breath weight.

and horrible ball too well yeah just rolled along the ground doesn't it yeah it really started taking anything yeah I'm sure well we had Jeff Goodson from Edgdon Park on at lunchtime brilliant about your arrival there and he said you know for someone from that club state 500 test wickets I mean they're all

blown away there too oh that's very special yeah I mean I did a huge amount of my learning at Edgden Park cricket club and probably the most important learning about just how much to enjoy the game you know whether you win lose or draw try and play with a smile on the face and, you know, respect the game and respect your opposition. And I played with some brilliant people there.

And, yeah, I try and get back there as much as I can. Obviously, not so much this summer. But it's a club that I loved playing for, and they've played a huge part in me being able to play for England. Right. Well, it's a great achievement, Stuart. Many congratulations. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Well, it's wonderful to speak to Stuart Broad, albeit in the rain, and such a special day and achievement for him. The sun is out. Broad is in to Brathwaite. Brathwaite is struck on the pad, big appeal for him. It's giving him! That is Broad's 500th wicket in test cricket. And I think Brathwaite is walking off.

He was absolutely plumb. It went low. It struck him on the pad. Bang in front. And Broad has made the breakthrough. You said it, Carlos. It's the time for Broad. to wreak havoc, well he's done it and he's also got to that milestone.

It's 500th wicket in test cricket. It kept horribly low. Brathwick could do nothing with that. Struck on the pad, bang in front. Umpire didn't hesitate. Sometimes I do hate to be right. But congratulations, short broad. He's worked very, very hard.

Put himself under a bit of pressure after the first test and then he's coming back to it up on the field and virtually deserved. richly deserved. Craig Brathleth won't be happy tour in England. He was 500 for Jimmy Anderson. Three years ago, he's 500 for Stuart Broad now. Well, well.

Chris Walsh, Geoff Archer, actually, might be 400 on the next time Craig Tour's England. But now, probably unplayable. It was, actually. We were seeing a replay of that. There was nothing that Brathaway could do. There's no disrespect to the batsman. Nothing you

could do at all. That went about, oh, A foot off the ground, if that. Yeah. And it jagged back sharply. He was, it was an impossible delivery to face. It was an absolute brute. But he got there and that's the main thing.

Let's get some statistical context in, shall we? Andy, can you put that achievement, that milestone into context? Well, he's the seventh bowler to reach 500 wickets in tests, the fourth seamer. after Courtney Walsh, the Great West Indian, Glenn McGrath, the perennial tormentor of England in the ashes and his long-time teammate, friend and colleague Jimmy Anderson. Broad's reached it at the age of 34,

the second youngest of those seven to reach 500 behind Murilly, so the youngest of the four seamers. And his 140th test, that's the longest of any of those seven bowlers to reach that. It's interesting looking at the breakdown of his career as we were talking about earlier on. His last 100 of the 500 wickets, we break it up into, you know, his average from wicket 1 to 100, then 101 to 200, has been the lowest average, averaging 22.7 for his last 100 wickets. Previously, his third 100 was the best in terms of average at 26.5, also the best strike rate at 48.4. And the second best economy has gone at 2.8 per over.

So he's had a great sort of resurgence after a slight dip in his career. had some bad stats over a period, but the wickets had dried up a bit. He was down to about three wickets a game, still useful without those magic spells that we talked about. And when it comes to his, you know, the magic spells that have defined his career, as I mentioned this is his fourth three wicket spell in the two matches he's had this series. And looking at his stats innings in which he's taken four or more wickets, he has one of the

best averages of bowlers in those innings. It shows how, you know, when he's on one of his hot. streaks on form. He's been especially effective. I think only Vernon Philander has a better average innings in which bowlers have taken four or more wickets. He's tied with SF Barnes for the most sixth for England. He's taken 12 sixths for England. Jimmy Anderson, I think only has five. So again, that's further evidence that Broad's hot streets on a roll have been particularly hot. Well, there's some nice symmetry about it all with Craig Brathick being the 500th wicket for Broad, also for his partner in crime, Jimmy Anderson.

And I've been talking to James about his old mate joining him in the 500 club. I'm absolutely delighted for him. He's worked so hard, particularly the last few years, the work he's put in on his action, behind the scenes that people don't see, I think, just to credit to himself, really. And absolutely deserves 500 wickets. He's been phenomenal for England. He's led the attack. He's, you know, hat-tricks, fifers.

amazing spells, match winning spells and yeah, fortunately for me I've been able to be a big part of that and see quite a lot of that and we've shared some amazing moments together and I think yeah I think creating memories like this just makes us want to go on and do more

we both feel fit and still hungry to get wicket so hopefully we've both got a few more left in the tank any spell or performance that really sticks out in your mind as being something that we're not in favourable conditions or something that really think, cracky, that is

a great performance. The one that always sticks out in my mind is 2009 at the Oval when the game was sort of not really going anywhere. We needed to win the game to win the series. Pitch was flat, wasn't much swing, and he just came on and

blew people away. Blue, got ponting out and, you know, got the big wickets and got, I think you got five or six wickets in that innings and that that won us the game effectively. Obviously people talk about Trent Bridge and the 815, but for me, the ones that,

where it's not in the bowler's favour when it's a flat wicket and not doing a lot, and he just makes something happen. It's a very special gift to have because not many people who've played the game have got that ability to change games. Yeah. You clearly are a very close couple on the field. What about off?

Are you generally big mates off the field as well? Yes, we are. Yeah, I'd say we're very close friends, yeah. Do you talk about bowling off when you were just being friends away from cricket? We're normally dissecting Michael Vaughn's comments that he's made about us in the media. No, we speak most days, to be honest, whether it can be about cricket, it might not be. I think that it's certainly having that sort of relationships helped us on the field, definitely. Being able to have those awkward conversations as well.

It's not always nice things you've got to say to each other. You've got to maybe give each other a kick up the backside every now and then. So it's having those difficult conversations as well. And I think when you have that relationship where you're quite close, you know that you can have an argument and then brush it off 10 minutes later. So that's definitely helped us. But yeah, I mean, someone who, you know, I'll try and I see him quite a lot as well away from cricket. We play golf together quite a lot.

Got lots of interests outside the game. So that's another nice thing that we've got is that I'm sure in years to come we'll still be catching up and talking about the wickets we took. There's something typical about Stuart that this series actually he gets dropped, he's angry.

He makes it clear he's angry. It's a brave thing to do to go out there and put yourself up, I should be playing because you've got to back it up and there's something's actually typical about him, the fact that he has done that. Yeah, I think it sums his character up completely. he's very determined very sort of narrow-minded I guess in some respects

and you know when when his back is up against the wall he finds a way of showing everyone what he can do and the sort of player that he is and yeah getting dropped obviously hurt him at Southampton especially after the last couple of years that he's had he's been brilliant for England and as I said earlier led the attack absolutely brilliantly and he was hurt and he obviously said what he said he's come back and backed his words up

and he's been doing that for years so to be honest every time he gets dropped or there's something said about him he manages to show people what he can do and always backs it up with his actions well that's Jimmy Anderson who bowled alongside Brawl for of course for so many years

Broad's captain for most of those 500 wickets was Sir Alistair Cook and he's been telling Stefan Schemilt of the BBC Sport website when he first came across broad. Well we've been on a couple of camps together

but not very many I think I was in the academy and I think he was around a little bit there on a part time but not very much because we didn't he didn't do under 19 cricket really I played against him at school which if you

had to ask him what happened he was actually an opening batter last day open a school we went to oakum school but not our pals didn't cross really we played a one

I played a T20 finals day would you believe against him and you know he was very hard to hit well I find everyone fine to hit

but and it was really until we got called up to England that we really spent a bit of time for them what did you think

both as a bloke and as a bowler well first at facing him until it was that 2020 at Leicester and I know it's going to sound

was really cliched, but he delivered on a really big performance straight away as a 19, I think he might be 19 at the time. You got Ronnie and then he bowled a handful of balls before I ran myself out. No free hit, no, you know, no, no, no, no, it didn't see many nerves, he saw a bloke who would relish a big occasion. And I know people say, oh, that's what you, you're looking back now, but that's what my first impression was. I thought a tall bloke, quick but liked the big occasion which actually it's a good trait to have and as a character coming into the england dressing room i think it like anything just takes a while to to to feel confident in the dress room and like he was a young young man but the one thing is always you know

is always certain of and i think a trait of of of of a great is you know he knew his own mind and knew which direction he wanted to take his game, how he wanted a bowl, and what he needed to do. And, you know, he learned he went from being England's enforcer for a couple of years, which, you know, actually probably wasn't the best thing in one sense for him, but good because it gave him a real clear role. And probably he didn't quite know his game as well as he did. And then he worked it out.

Then he was like, no, I'm better than that. And this is the lens ball. And you can see over the last couple of years, almost every five years, so he's got fuller and fuller. And, yeah, I mean, I'm trying, I've only got admiration for him. I think he's, you know, he's always been slightly overshadowed by Jimmy Anderson. There's always a bloke ahead of you. If you get five in wickets first, or 400 wickets first, there's always a big fuss.

But his record is as good as they can as well. You talk about him has those different roles he's had as a bowler, the enforcer, latterly changing his run-up bowl in a full of length. People have seen that and the changes of him as a bowler. what about the way he's changed as a person if at all but he's always had the stubborn streak in him I think me and him would be very similar cats if you're going to go and have an argument with him

or a discussion with him you better be very clear on his on your stats and your argument because you know if he knows it's coming he'll be very well prepared for him he's grown into the leadership role I think in terms of he likes he likes being involved in leadership decisions he likes being around that kind of thing.

You know, you'd use him, you'd use him for that. And he'd also appreciates, he's a bit, he's got that old-skillness in him that he does, he plays sports for, I think, all the right reasons. He enjoy enjoyment of it. And then also getting out and about playing his golf and for the experience of it as well, not just, you know, not just for playing sports, that makes it.

You said he was stubborn. What's he like to captain? Can he be grumpy and single-minded and difficult to persuade? You can be at certain times. But again, we're talking the difference really of what makes people, and what makes James Anson? What's good as he is in? What makes Stuart Broad as good as he?

And is that single-mindedness? I think you need it. They're bred slightly differently to a few people in that way. And yes, there's some moments where it's frustrating where he desperately wants an ex-recover a new desperate on a third slip but that's what makes him the bowler he is and that you know that will that power of his you know that's so so determined that and you know so willful in one sense it's not malicious it's never malicious it's not like a you know it's just him in his in his

moment trying to do what he thinks is best and i say you'd rather have as a captain you'd rather have a character who thinks like that than just a total yes man because If everyone's just agreed with everything, I don't think you progress, I don't think you make the right decision a number of times. But there's never, as I said, there's no grudge, there was no maliciousness,

there's no, you know, there's nothing behind it, apart from just the heat of the competition. I'm always trying to work out with Brody, like, you know, you look back at your career, well obviously I started to look back at my international career. And the one thing I'd always look back at Brody, he could lie in bed every night going,

Do you know, when there was a big occasion or a big moment in a high-pressure game, I delivered over my fair share of times. And that must be a great feeling. You know, and some people say, do you know what I mean? Some people you hear, you know, when it, you know, they got, not easy runs or easy wickets. When he's made a difference, it was certain spells at certain times in massive series. It obviously started with, say, the one in 2009, and that one in the oval. And that must be a great feeling, knowing when the pressure was the most, he delivered his skills.

skills as well as he could do so I think that's one of his greatest attribute as captain could you tell or as a teammate could you tell when they were when those spells were coming no I know I don't think you could really like you never have said you don't say if people say they do oh he picks his knees up better then he'd pick his knees up every single time I just think when it absolutely clicks 100% for him he's so skillful at hitting length him you know what he's you're He's such a good length bowler, and he finds the perfect length for that wicket, a loss of the time, very well.

And when he's got that perfect rhythm, it's, you know, like everything, you need to be working perfect. When he hits it, he's got height, he's got pace, and he moves the ball, so it's always going to be a handful. It's like if you go back to that eight-for, the eight-for-fifteen, everyone said, oh, you know, it's happened. Well, he wanted to bat first, so. And that was going to be my next question.

What are your memories of the eight-for-fifteen? I remember it had been quite a dry wicket underneath, but we've quite a lot of live grass and knowing that it does tend to flatten out at Trent Bridge. And he'd obviously played a lot there. He missed Jimmy Anderson. Jimmy Anderson was injured. You know, everyone's thinking it was a big loss.

Of course, it's a big loss. But who steps up, who delivers the performance, which changes the game. But he does only be won for, saying we're going to bow first when he wanted to met. What's your favourite time that you spent with him, either well on the field and off the field do you know what I was going earlier

the interview I said he plays it for the right reason is that changing room sat at the end of the change room next to him or near him knowing what kind of he appreciates what we go through as an opening batter and you kind of we and I obviously really appreciate you know what he goes through physically as a bowler through in a session just sat there with him

some people and at the end of the game that's what I remember just the conversation and just looking at each other going, well, I think we played 120 or test matches together. It's a lot of memories, a lot of bad times, a lot of good times, and I think that's just sat there to the end. That would be a moment of just enjoyment of a job well done because we won quite a few games together.

Last one, from all angles, from every angle that you would look at it, as an opening batsman, as a captain, as a friend, how good is he? Well, his records just suggesting 500 test wickets. You know, we're kind of like get blasé about it in one sense because we've got a Jimmy on 580 or another guy with the 500 test match wicket era. I mean, that's a lot of wickets, isn't it? And I don't care what area are you playing?

What wickets you bowl on? To get 500 test wickets, it's a quality of playing. To play 130 test matches he played now. To survive in all conditions is bloody good, isn't he? I think that's a, I don't think we'll ever, I don't think, like all these things, I think when people finish, you remind that you, yeah, a little good pulse. Alistair-Cook talking to Stefan Schemel. So we're looking back at Stuart Broad's career,

having reached the landmark of 500 test wickets today. He's been associated with Leicestershire since he was eight years old. He represented them to under nines, and he played for the Melton Mowbray Club, Edgerton Park, which also I know very well. The chairman of the club at the time is Jeff Goodson, who's now ground manager. I don't know if I was your ground manager these days.

Jeff, now, come on. You were there when Stuart first turned up. What do you remember? Well, I mean, yeah, it must have been the early 90s and Stewart came down. I think he must have been at the school in Oakham, not Oakham school, because he was still only under 11, I think, when he came down and started playing for our,

team in the juniors and running around the outfield when the men were playing as well coming in the nets yeah in those days I mean he was he wasn't tall for his age really at the

time and he was more considered to be a batsman following his father's footsteps I suppose an opening batsman I think wasn't he he wasn't opening back yeah well he probably started in men's cricket playing on Sundays in the local league

because we've always tried to introduce juniors into the Sunday matches and then graduated into the second team on Saturdays and ultimately the first team obviously How good a batsom was he, Geoff, for his age? We thought he was a good baseman.

We thought he would make a batsman. In fact, you know, with his pedigree and everything, we didn't really he did try to bowl a bit but he was certainly not quick even as a youngster but no I mean he was just a lab really

like all the others and we thought you know perhaps take it as far as he can but with no real aspirations of him becoming a 500 wicked no but the club has an association with a with a small club in Victoria in Australia doesn't it? Yes yeah we're

for a number of years just before Stuart got of that age we'd arranged a exchange with a club called Hoppers Crossing in Melbourne and he went out I think he was probably about 18, 17 perhaps as far as we were concerned he was going out as a batsman but while he was there he grew quite a lot

because he's now 6'7 he probably went out about 5'10 and came back 6 foot 6 or something that's what it seemed to us when he came back his mum didn't recognise him at the airport I don't think No, he went out as a batsman, and it came back as an all-rounder, you know, because he was still batting quite well, and as we all know, he's been capable of batting and getting a century for England until he got that nasty ball in the face. Yes. So, yeah, but then he went to Leicestershire, on and off, playing for us, but going to the county, but he'd been playing for them as a junior and through the age groups, and that's probably when we didn't. see him anymore as far as a player but he's always been someone who's come back to the club

and he's always had the club at heart and whenever he'd got any uh any kit that was he was too big for he would donate it to somebody in the juniors or whatever you know so he's been a fantastic club member and uh yeah credit to everybody locally so yeah enjoy enjoy your enjoy your birthday jeff and i'll catch up with you soon okay then thanks very much jonathan bye bye bye jeff There we go. Jeff Goodson from Edgerton Park. We're just looking back at Stuart Broad's career, which, of course, everyone hopes, and he will certainly hope, is far from over.

He made his test debut in 2007 in Colombo, taking one for 95. It was one of the hottest test matches I think I've ever seen. And young Stuart made his debut in that. His first week, it was Chiminda Vass. And his captioned that day was Michael Vaughn. He's sitting alongside here, It was a brutal, it's a brutal, or the flattest, slowest pitch.

Good luck, Stuart. I can't make it debut. Yeah, I think of her, remember, we batted first. I think we got off to a flyer. I think I was all right at lunch. I think I was 70-odd knots out at lunch. And then usually what happened in those days, Morley spun his magic, and we were bowled out.

And I think we maybe batted the day, I'm not too sure. And we certainly were bowling early on the second day, if not. And I think we fielded for pretty much two days, two and a half days. Jaya Warden had got a big one and you know I remember giving before I gave him his cap actually I'd heard a lot about him you know this is 2007 so I've been the captain since 2003 and there's names that pop up even even when you're kind of a young player a 17 year old and 18 year on this now obviously his name's famous anyway but you know the whispers from around lester at the time a few of my good pals in cricket were playing at

Lester, Paul Nixon, and he kept on texting me, probably I reckon he must have been around 2005 saying we've got one here. I've got one here. Stuart Roads a cricketer, proper cricketer. So he kind of study and you see them playing for the under-19s and then when his name cropped up in around

2007 to tour, you know, he'd had a decent season and I'd done a little bit of research and the selectors obviously go and watch them play and I just went get him in because I'd heard about his character. Yeah. I said, get him in, let's get him on tour and let's have a look. It's not an easy tour. Sri Lanka you know it's going to be difficult but you know what you find out about characters on tours like that and straight away you knew I never thought and I don't think anyone that gives a player a debut cap thinks what you'll get 500 wickets but straight away I knew he had the right determination the right thought process which you require at the highest level to have a long career

it was his thought process when he bowled you know a lot of England bowlers love them dearly but they like me as a captain to set the field you know you you what do you want Skipper. It was one of those where Stuart brought, even as a 21-year-old, it'd come on. I don't know if it was his first spell, but it was certainly early in his first spell. I remember him saying Skipper want X, Y and Z, and I went, no problem, that's fine. And the sunballers

again, that would ask for that and you kind of go, can I can I negotiate? Because it wasn't quite right, but I always found with Stuart, and particularly when he came into the team in New Zealand, 2008, when I had to get rid of hoggy and harm me, which was difficult for me,

captain they'd done so much for me to bring in Stuart and Jimmy Anderson I remember that game in Wellington and you know when you think they'd replaced two you know in my eyes legends from what they'd done for English cricket you know you could have been quite nervous as a young player to take over a Matthew

Hoggard or a Steve Harmeson mantle but straight away he had confidence in his own game you know he knew what he was trying to deliver he knew what he was trying to achieve I think you know in Wellaggers he's he's the kind of character that he almost like maps his years out. I think now he knows what he's going to do in five years' time.

I think he knows where he's going to be. I think he's got an idea of where he wants his career to end. I think he's that kind of personality. You know, and whatever he does from here or near. I honestly hope that he can get past Glenn McGraths. What is it? 63 is it? Because wouldn't it be great for English cricket

if we had Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broad, the two leading scene bowls in a history of test match cricket. And when you think about what happens in cricket these days with the T20 format, will we see seen bowlers get to that 500 mark, maybe, Rabada maybe, Bolt maybe,

Ishani maybe, but you could argue that we might have just seen the last ever 500 test match wicket. It's funny because when we talk about well sportsmen but in this case bowlers you often sort of categorise them Jimmy Anderson swing or you sort of categorise them in that way

but for me with Stuart Broad it is character almost he's highly skilled of course he is magnificent at hitting that length time after time after time at good pace but it does seem to be

there's so much he has been challenged during his career people writing him off saying that he's lost pace the business of standing at Trent Bridge and the reception he got in Australia after that

being dropped the other day I mean it hasn't always been straightforward for him but he's always got this determination about him. I'll be the first to admit that my pencil sharpness sometimes been sharpened a little bit

more so for Stuart Broad. Purely because I know you get a reaction. Yes. You know, there's a little bit of the captain in me when I write columns about Stuart that I know that he's that kind of character and I know that, you know, if you trigger him,

I'm pretty sure he's one of only a few that really do actually have that kind of mentality of go, I'll prove you wrong, which is great for the team. You know, It's that ability, like we've seen in the last two test matches, to put yourself under pressure with an interview. I know he's played lots of cricket and his experience, but to put yourself under that amount of pressure,

I'm going to 1-0 down in the series. It could be the flattest pitch of all time here, and he got naught for 100. What people have said then? Well, he was naught for until that second new ball in the first inning. So he was feeling it a little bit. And, you know, he's always answered. He's always had that answer.

You know, however long he plays for, and I hope he carries on for as long as he can because he's bowling as well as you could argue that we've ever seen. With that pace element and that run-up, everything looks smooth. He found his batting this week, which is great for the team,

great for him. But I always feel for him because we always have a conversation about Stuart and then it's Jimmy Anderson. And I always, yeah, I get that. I understand that that partnership's strong and you need a partnership and Jimmy bowled in dots

and producing his magic from one and of course it helps you as a bowler. But let's not underestimate it's Stuart that's got the 500 wicket. on his own. He's the one that gets up in the morning. He's the one that's, you know, had things said about him and he's come back. He's the one that's had, you know, injuries, been on that

massage table, been on all the tours, been an international cricketer for 13, no one else. So this is the time where we actually should just completely highlight Stuart as the individual because it's only he that's done it. You know, again, his dad, Chris always gets to mention, and he's done a wonderful job with him, but it's

Stuart that has had 13 years on a plane, in a hotel, the discipline element, the sacrifices that you have to make. He deserves everything that comes his way over the next few days. There were so many columns written about him, but I hope it triggers him to think, come on, I can get 600 because he's bowling well enough and his body looks

like it's strong enough at this stage to go on and get 600 wickets, because they'll also have that moment, Jimmy and Stuart, they'll wake up one day and it will come to an end, and they've earned the right, both of them, whenever that may be, whether it's in a year, in Australia in a year and a half the summer afterwards

whenever that day is that the way you come and go I just don't want to do this anymore I think not one person could say that they've got it wrong because when you play for 14, 15 years in Jimmy's case what will it be?

How long has Jimmy been played? 20 years? Yes, absolutely. 20 years at the highest level you've earned the right to decide when you decide to pull up your kind of boots and say that's it. The TMS podcast

from BBC Radio 5 Live. Yes, wonderful achievement for Stuart Broad today. You can watch all the highlights on today at the test on the BBC Sport website and the eye player. Check out BBC Sounds for plenty of TMS podcasts, including Carlos Brathwaite special and a look back on the Graham Gouche 333 30 years on.

We're back on air for the Royal London One Day International series from 145 on Thursday, and then the first test against Pakistan starts on Wednesday the 5th of August. Yergen, Yergan, you're a big fan of the BBC Sounds app Oh yes, oh yes Well, we've heard reports that you've been enjoying The Football Daily podcast on him

I loved it, that makes me quite happy to be honest Jose, Football Daily is bringing top analysis and comment on BBC Sounds How do you feel about that? Of course, it's the best thing in football Are you a fan, Oli? Yeah, I love that. Wow, this is massive.

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