Test Match Special - Drones, toupees, and trees: Ask the umpire with Ian Gould.

Episode Date: June 23, 2026

Former international umpire Ian Gould joins Jonathan Agnew and Phil Tufnell to answer your questions about the weird and wonderful laws of the game. What happens if the ball strikes a drone or gets stuck in a falling toupee? If you think you’ve won, but celebrate by throwing the ball over the boundary are you penalised? And what’s the ruling if the ball gets stuck up a tree in your garden. Plus, some wonderful memories from Gould’s illustrious career as a top official.

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Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on good, bad billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Very warm welcome to an old adversary many years ago. Someone who we saw a lot on the circuit, umpiring of course. Ian Gould. That way to have you here, Gunner.

Johnny, it's an absolute pleasure. I've got to say, and I said this to tough as early on, I don't think I've been quite as nervous as this. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Well, he got big boots to fill. I mean, John Holder. Yeah.

John Dead Ball Holder. I might be taken over that man somewhere along the line. It always seemed to be, it was always, yes, his fallback position was dead ball. But you know what this is all about, don't you? I mean, you've been in folding cricket so long. You know what? I mean, it's a fascinating game. sorts of ways, isn't it? But this section that we do a couple of times a summer just raises the most extraordinary things. Only I think cricket could do.

Long-standing feuds of when someone was caught from a tree or something and the other team won or unpast, given, you know, not out and where they were all, all those sorts of things. But it's just what cricket's all about, isn't it? It's a completely mad game. Yes. Times you're standing out there and you're watching it and you think, why is that just happened? What made that happen? It's just, it's brilliant. But yeah, I'm still nervous, thanks for the great start. I'm still warming up. I mean, humor's never far away, though either, is it? No, hopefully not.

It's not. And it always amazes me. It always amazes me. There's something that crops up every year, isn't it? Oh, yeah. We go, oh, I don't quite know what that is. What happens then? Well, actually, yeah.

Every year there's something that pops in. Because, Ian, and you're interesting because you obviously played, and then became an umpire. It always seems to me that the players actually don't know the laws. And so you, that's a fair comment. Do you think the players know the laws as well as they should do? Well, I'll be wrong in saying that the players do know what they're doing. But when I came out of playing and coaching during Phillips time, I came into the unprime world and I knew everything.

Then two or two things happened in front of me. And I went, thank God, David Constant was standing on the other side. And then Merv Kitchen, the game, it just, as you rightly both say, something just crops up. Why? Yes. Why? You turn up, one of my first games had turned up and the stumps weren't straight. Oh, no.

And then you think to yourself, how much than I drink the night before? But, no, it does. It's fascinating and people really get into it. Yeah, did you then have to, in those early days of umpire, and sort of call on the experience of the other fellow quite a lot? Mervyn Kitchen David Constant Barry Ledbetter

who was probably my first coach worked completely outstanding and you know my well both of you know my character I was a bit of a Jack

the lad and they both said when you come in to one point you're going to have to change this you're going to have to do it very very straightforward signal properly stop talking

which is difficult for me as you know but they were absolutely fantastic to me and then I was lucky enough to go up the next run to be greeted by someone like Simon Torfel

who was unbelievably good unbelievably good. He knew everything about the game and he was so kind and I've got to say he was desperately kind to me when I first started because some of the gigs when you're away from home

and you don't really know the players when in England you know everyone he goes overseas and suddenly you're in Bangladesh or someone like he don't know anyone. He was outstanding Has he? Oh, unbelievable. It's a shame

that he got out of the game too early in my book but that's his choice. But then you had the characters. You had the madman from New Zealand. Billy Bowden. Well, Billy was probably the best decision maker

that I've seen. Really? One DRS came and he said to you, that's it in Leg's Dumb. It was. But the one thing about Billy, tough as you'll love this, He had a crooky finger.

He did. Supposedly. Supposedly. All right. Well, I went on a course to ICC course to Dubai, and we went 10-pin bowling. And he beat me. And I was a slough champion. But if you think about it, how do you get that bent finger in the ball?

How did you let go to the ball? Well, that's what I'm saying. Because it was straight. One barrel straight. The only ever time that finger was bent was when he was giving out. Yeah. But he did that. Brilliant.

It's a great character. I enjoyed a time. I did it. I didn't like when he used to start hopping and jumping about doing all the sixes when I was bowling. I must do it. Oh no. He thought he was like a little bit. Who was the bowler when Clayton Lambert hit? Was it Jimmy Anderson out of Barbados? Oh, by the bit. And he hit him miles out of Barbados and Billy then started running around signaling this six and Jimmy was like that very much. And I think he was that over-impressed.

Ah, it wouldn't be. Well right, Gunner, we've established you. Yeah, there's more. And so you know what this is all about. Just relax and enjoy it. Relax and enjoy it. Can I have a pint of lager? No, you can't. You can have one afterwards.

What about? All right, okay. No. Right. I'm starting though, because I have been distracted. We've all been distracted by this little drone that's buzzing about. In fact, I noticed this morning up on the big screen, there's an announcement about it, that Sky are using this drone to improve their coverage.

It actually, they do get some amazing shots from just outside the ground looking in. You've got London in the background and the river and the over. So it's nice. I haven't seen too many shots. And unlike Spider-Cam, it's quite low. And it seems to live just above the slips, just down here, which is why it keeps catching our eye, because it's right in our line.

And I was thinking to myself, because it's not so high up and so on. What happens if the ball hits it? I mean, what happens if, I don't know, Joe roots on naught and somehow gets up there, and the ball. ball flicks the drone and the fielder catches it, you know, it's it could cause a bit of a rumpus. So, so what do you think would happen there? Because it's happened with spider cam a couple of times, isn't it? It has and I thought coming here this morning that spider cam was still alive and well and it used to be a bug bear when you were umpiring.

How bad? Because it distracted you that the shadow came onto the pitch, bat has kept going, can you get rid of it? And the guy in the marquee over there was having a bit of fun with it and whatever, but it was a real distractive. And I think yesterday it happened in the game, in the ladies game where he got hit. So if it's hit out by the batter, it hits the drone or what is this called? This is a drone, you use to call Spider-Cam is a dead ball straight away. Straight away, regardless of what happens? The ball is not bold.

Restart. Restart. Right. So you can't be caught, you can't do anything. But judging it hitting the spider cam, hitting the wire, that takes a bit of doing. Oh, little Nick off the wire. Off the wire. Can you hear the ping off the wire?

Well, in front of 60,000 in Auckland, I don't think you don't it? Have you ever seen that happen? Yeah. Hit the wire? Yeah. Verac Koli hooked one and he was going to, it was going straight down five leg and it flipped the wire. Oh, was it? Well, it was always hitting the wire.

To be fair, we're not giving Virat out, are we? Not without a ride. No. If it was just say six to win at the last ball of the World Cup final and you leather it, bang. And it's flying. out the ground for six and just nicks the wire. Good luck. Where's good a good ball?

We ain't getting off that field, are you in any hurry? There would be, there would be, well, all sorts of trouble. But I had a great colleague, and he's an English lad, who's a brilliant, brilliant umpire. So I thought I'd seek a bit of solace on whether I've got this right, because I haven't been doing this for six years. So he said, yeah, yeah, the old man, you've got it right. But if the bowler throws it in and it hits the wire,

or the drone or the spider cam, it's run scored. What happened in that incident, it's run scored, it's dead ball, run scored, and the ball counts. Oh, right. Did you know that?

No. Nor did I. Until 25 to 8 this morning. It's a very good call. It's a great call by Richard Ketabro, getting up that early on the day off. Probably out jogging somewhere. But is that right?

So the fielder hits it. Yeah. Throws it and hits it? Yeah. It's dead ball. Right. And there's an old employee, you go, dead ball, can I have the ball, please.

Yeah. So he's had the ball off the fielders. Dead ball, run scored. And the ball, like with the other one, you replay the ball, you don't replay that. Right. Well, there you go. Right, I'm off then.

Thanks very much. No, no. Hold on. You've done very well, there, go. Yes. A nice little opener for you. One down to fine leg. Yeah.

I've got one from Ed from Newcastle, Newcastle upon time. Whilst playing garden cricket with my brother, if he hit the ball into the tree and it got stuck on a branch, I would then quickly climb up and collect the ball and claim it

as being out, as the ball had not touched the ground. With the same rule of playing Test Match cricket. Good afternoon, Ed. Obviously, you were desperately bored and you thought you'd try and catch me out here. I don't know many grounds in the country now or the world that have got a tree in it.

We used to have one at Canterbury. Yeah, we did. Used to say, I'd have done it. I'm not under it, yeah. A stinky hot day cat is going to find tough as underneath it. No. I'm full of admiration that you've got up the tree very quickly. I've got to say that, but you've wasted your time, mate.

Dead bull, let's move on. Yeah. So it's not for, for it was four, wasn't it? Yeah. If it hit it. Not in a back garden. No, no, no, no. Haven't got any rules and regulation.

No, you haven't. Not a Fisle upon time. No, but you'll get a number of these over the coming years. But yes, Canterbury, if you hit the ball into the tree, regardless of any part of the tree, it was four runs. On the full, it was four. You couldn't be caught off it. It was just four runs, bang.

Four runs. Yeah. How many times in your careers? Did you see it happen? Never. I think I did either. I don't think I did. It must have done once.

The Kent boys must have seen it happen. Yes. Right. Edward Blue. Hello, Edward. Thanks for joining us. In the last ball of a T20 match, this is one of these ones that hasn't actually quite happened, I think, but it could do. The batting side need five to win. Last ball T20, okay?

The batserone manages to get it out to cover point, who fields the ball, and they run a single. To celebrate the win, the field that turns round and hurls the ball into the crowd. But the batting side argue that counts as four overthrows. So they've got the five that they need to win. Are they correct? I think, quietly, thinking on my feet is what I used to do an awful lot standing out umpiring. Yes, that's correct. And what's the gentleman's name?

Edward. I'd go and find your P-45 before you got back in the changing room. Very much. Because why would you want to throw in the crowd? Well, I know. But if you do. Oh, that's it. It's five. Because if you throw, if you let the ball go over the boundary when you're fielding

in order to keep the bats on a certain ends, you get in trouble for that, don't you? Yeah. So what actually does happen if you do, if you do that? You get to it, or the runs, if you let it go for four, they don't count, do they? But if you throw it over, if you throw it over. Isn't? If you let it go, I think you're under the code of spirit of cricket. Correct.

I don't think that that's right. If you throw it into the crowd and the ball's not dead. You've lost the game. I don't know what you're thinking, to be honest with you. But you've lost the game, yeah. Well, it's a very, right, Edward, well done. And if we ever see it, we ever see it happen. Well, I think it's unlikely.

I think it's unlikely. Well, as we said at the start of this, things happen in front of us at the moment. We're not sure about it. You don't know what's coming next. No, you don't. There's going to be something over these next three and a half days. You're going to go, why did that happen?

Yep. Well, as an umpire, you stand there, and that's when you've got to start thinking on your feet. And do you take a deep breath and just sort of, Yeah, you try and find your partner as quickly as you can. Right. Just get in the middle and the side and just get together and just go, what happened?

Yeah. Because sometimes you don't sit. Things happen. Field is getting your way and at certain times, you know, you've got to be very, very on guard with your colleague. Yeah, interesting. Works as a team. Yeah, that's it, PCT, playing control team.

Oh, God, how many times did I hear that? Got one here for you, mate. Now, this wouldn't necessarily apply to Agers and I. What happens if a batter is given out by the umpire, but he or she simply refuses to leave the crease? Does the batting team forfeit the match? That's an interesting. I don't think that is one I don't think I've ever seen.

I've got to say that. And I've got to just to leg it off. Yeah. Most people I saw batting from six down just run off. Especially for Sussex, a lure and Imran running. Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, yeah, of me screaming behind them.

Yes, you did. It's quite annoying. I think you probably need to get a stretcher. Put them on the stretcher and take them off. Yeah. Oh, no, it would happen. What if they do? Well, you've got to go, haven't you?

Yes. You've got to go at some stage. It can't be there all right, surely. You'd be spirit of cricket again, would it? Yeah, yeah. And you'd probably be banned for the next three games or something. modern day world. That's brilliant.

I like that. We're going to come in front. I'm not going. No, I'm standing here. What are you going to do about it? Come on here. Who do you think you are big time, Charlie? Yeah, no.

Right. Well, let's say it's unlikely that Philip and I'd be in that scenario. Now, Jim from Hartford, good afternoon to you. As a very regular radio listener and TV viewer to all forms of cricket, is it in the interpretation of the umpire as to when an appeal has been? made. Many times over the audio of the radio or TV one can hear a range of noises from bowling sides from screaming Banshee to various forms of staccato guttural nondescript noises none of which seem to include the word how's that is that word actually

required and actually that's true you do see bowlers just running through going it is required and you have to turn as well as you're screaming how's that? Or how is that? How is that? How is that? And I've seen one of two bowlers, because you can get fined or get demerit points

for not addressing the umpire with the pill. Yes, well, Stuart would do that a bit, wouldn't he? He runs through. He did everything like what he wanted. No way about Stuart. His old man was a match referee, won't it? He could do what he wanted. His old man would put him in,

go to court with him. Yes. But no, technically by law, you have to say how's that. And turn around to say how's that. It's speaking to you. Yeah, I'm going to answer your question, but I'm not going to talk to you back. Wow.

But we see that a lot with it. Oh, you do, you do. And it's just, it's not polite. And I think if you didn't turn around to someone like Alan Whitehead. Oh, yes. And Jonathan. What do you think would be the next move? Well, it might be, yes.

It would be forceful. Yeah, it would be to the point. He's like boxing, Alan, didn't he? He used to warm up in the mornings. I'm trying to think, well, senior bumble used to call him. Yeah. No, that is law that is you should turn round. Right.

And you, the match referee can reprimand you for not doing that. Yes. Well, it's a slap on the wrist. So if you don't, but if you're, the reality is, if you're out there unparring and someone's nicked a big one behind and the bullesco is running through going, ah, you're going to give it out, aren't you? Yeah, you would hope you would give it out. But there's some people of the impression when I first started that if the bowler did what you asked him to do

and he nicked it to slip and the batter started walking off. By courtesy, you didn't give them out because they're doing the job for you. But as time's gone on, there's merit points. It's like being at school. So the amount of decisions that you make

add up and then there's a percentage of how many right decisions you've made in the game. So if you smack it to extra cover, there's certain umpires in the world give you out. Because they don't, they might be counted down.

Well, no, if you put your finger up, then the referee's got to log it, correct decision. Right. So we don't do anything. No. Oh. Oh, I didn't know that. No, I didn't know that. No, but it's a strange world. Yes. Because I had, you know, talking about David Constant and Mervon and people like that, they were the first people that, and Simon Taw, to a point, taught you in a manner that you, that you wanted, the way I wanted to umpile and

is the umpire, the umpire like me. Because at the end of it, someone speaks to you and says hello, you say hello back and whatever. Just be courteous. Yes, a bit of respect. Yeah, but there's a lot of people just stare at you and go. Ow.

And up there, or wherever the match referee sits up the top there, he's got a little computer and he's logging it in, correct decision. Tick. Wow, wow. Mad. Yeah. So he was a big, big slog out of it.

Like that last one at the end there, when the catch is taken the deep, and some will give it out because it you imagine doing one day international and you probably only get two decisions in the game all right so you don't give one of them out but you give the other one out you just get 50% for that game and that's that half hurt your back pocket or yeah that does hurt your bag pocket well that that that is that's enlightening well thank you yeah but i think it goes back to being cursed yes you know you don't want to go on the Philip, you remember the umpire?

And you, Jonathan, you remember the umpies that you went, I've got to be a bit careful, yeah. Got be a bit careful. Yeah. All the other ones, like Ray Julian. Yeah, all go. Oh, go. Oh, great.

Oh, you just smile at you. Love Ray. Love, come of tough. Come a tough as bowl him out, life, one. Back for a bench and an edge. You would bowl up hill into a gale on Ray Julian's end.

Wonderful umpire. Yeah. Unless it's your set of pads. Yeah. He does, he does. Before his time, Ray. Oh, dear. Before his time.

You can imagine him in this with DRS? Yeah. Oh my life. This is the TMS podcast. He's widely recognized as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandor Award five times. He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index,

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I've got one here. Dom from Macclesfield, afternoon TMST, this is my favourite segment. Oh, well, good, good. I have a very realistic scenario for you. A field is rather embarrassed about their bald spot. So they have decided to wear a toupee. As the bowler is running in, Augusta Wynn hits up. follically challenged fielder, which blows the hairpiece.

The ball, which blows off the hairpiece. The ball is guided away towards the boundary. However, it hits the hairpiece, slowing the ball up, enough to stop a certain boundary. What is the call? Five runs or good fielding? Tricky. That's a bit of a left view.

I said, go on. Have I read that wrong? He's got a toupee, it blows it off, hits the ball, the two-pay slows the ball down. Yes. Is that like hitting the helmet? It's not part of the equipment. Oh, it's not part of the equipment. Well, I don't know.

Perhaps he announced before the game, I was going to be part of his equipment. But no. I've got to say, quite a dense hair piece, isn't it? I mean, we're talking something that's going to stop the ball. It's not as a little, you know, little swindled on the blows in the wind. little squirrel. I can't answer this, does it? Well, I can, but I'll answer it without trying to be too rude, Dom.

No, it's not part of the equipment. It's just funny. Just funny. And I'm afraid I'd have it. That last batsman didn't want to walk off. I think I'd have walked off and never come back in the game again. As he say, I wonder if this has happened. Dream it up.

It must have happened. Well, yeah, he said a realistic scenario. It'd have looked quite a, Yeah. See, I assume that that the correspondent there was Keith Flat, our old friend for the beard liberation front. Right. But it wasn't, but this one is. Well, um... A player, you are gonna.

A player edges a ball to a slip fielder with a long WG Grace style beard. The ball lodges in the beard. lodges in the beard. Well, she got wax on it. Then after an interval of a few seconds, drops to the ground without the field are touching it. Is the bats one out? And I'm going to give you a little clue here possibly, because John Holder did rule out one from Keith Flett from the Beard Liberation Front. If the slips were lined up together, all bearded, and they linked with the...

they sort weaved their beards together, like a fisherman's net, and the ball went into it. He ruled that out because the beard is part of the person. Oh, without doubt it is, and is he in control of the ball? That's the thing. If he's in control the ball and he's got it stuck in his beard for a period of time, well, very good luck to him. He best shave the beard off and she's got a nick underneath.

He says a few seconds. I mean, how long would you need the ball to be in the beard for? If he feels that it's... if the umpire feels that he's in control of it then off you go yeah yeah anyway it'd be wonderful it'd be a great sight so he's not touched it in the beard it's locked in there yeah yeah how did you get me on this program right now i've been it down the middle now here we go here we go in a recent under 13th sorey league match the wicket keeper placed his unused helmet

directly behind the stumps rather than behind him as you'd typically expect. He was standing back to a medium pacer when the batsman took a quick single and as the fielder threw at the stumps it hit the helmet first

before hitting the stumps. The batsman was given out, run out. Is this right? Is this right or should it have been given five runs? My interpretation that, Philip, is that as soon as it is the helmet, it's five penalty runs. Yeah.

It's like a wicket keeper throwing his glove off, and the ball gets thrown, and it's the keeper's glove, the one that's lying on the floor. Right. That's five penalty runs. And the lesson behind that is put the helmet behind you. Yeah. I don't, I think you can,

I can't honestly answer this because I don't know whether it's law to have it, you have to have it behind. Right. The wicket keeper. Yeah. The thing is with it, I have a bug bear about the keeper and the helmet is the number of times where a seamer bowls one end

and the spinner bowls the other and the helmet's taken off because they don't want to get penalised five penalty runs. By the time that helmet gets taken from off the field to bring it onto the field for the spinner, the amount of time that is wasted. Yes. And how many times is it a keeper you're supposed to stop it, isn't you? Well, how to mother it?

I mean, do you remember that first. ball at laws last week, or week before, off Matt Henry. Oh, yeah. Tom Blunder was a great camera. Oh, yeah. He saved that like Peter Shelton. Because he bounced that many times to him.

He just dived on it to try and stop it. I'd say, I'd say the helmet's got me behind the keeper. Yeah. And if it hits it, it's five-pillant runs, yeah. Even if it deflects off it and then hits the gloves. I think if it's the helmet at any place, it's five-pilantly run.

Yeah, yeah. If there's two helmets and it hits both of the private. There's still five for it. I know where you go. I know where you're going on I've known your humour for a very long time and it's exceptionally good like a cannon

it's just be bouncing around 5 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 I saw a game in Sri Lanka when this thing turned and they had Mularitha and Pakistan Adjemal and I remember walking on that film and thinking I've got no chance here

but anyway for some reason which was a miracle they brought Seema on and behind was a row four helmets all the way back. And I was like, and the same thing as what you're saying, I actually went to my partner and went, what if it's all four?

And he just dismissed me as I was taking the Mickey. But I wasn't. I was actually being very, very serious. You don't see it often these days. I remember how he wanted to try something to play, but you don't often see the ball hit the help. No, you don't very often. Because it's normally sitting in that dugout

120 yards away. Yeah, true. If you had somebody in here now, sitting here with a stop clock how much time is wasted there and the amount of times that I've been battered since I've retired about not having 90 overs in a day some of this stuff

the drone the helmet off the field takes time yeah it's interesting and Matthew Fleming a bit of distraction it's worth asking you anyway Matthew Fleming when he was involved at MCC I think semi seriously we were talking about overrates what's you about it he said quite simple

fine the umpars Now how would that say? Oh, I support. Find the umpars because they will keep the game moving. Yes. Is that Matthew who's got a bank? Yes.

I wonder why he said, find the umpires. Could the umpires speed it up? No. The disrespect to this is amazing that you say to them no, drinks at this time, that time at all the wickets and whatever. If we've got a minute here, just a second?

Yeah. I did a one day international in India. That's a long time ago. And they had a young up and coming who's now turned into a brilliant cricket in Hardek Pandy. He was a very young 12th man in this game.

Anyway, we had real problems with M.S. Doni changing his gloves and bats. He must have changed. If he got 60, he changed his bats every six overs, ten times. So anyway, he said, right, we've got to stop this. So we had a pre-series meeting.

No more running on bats and gloves and things. like that. First game, Dony's gone, waved his bat, gloves, whatever. And this Hardec Pandy, he's about 19, has come running at me and I've given him that one. No. And he swerved round me, went to Dony, give him his new bat and a new pair of gloves and walked past. And I said, Ardick, we've made a law that you cannot bring that on. And he said, if MS Doni wants a bat and a pair of gloves, he's having them. The game was delayed five minutes because I was on the floor laughing at this kid

It was brilliant It's probably true, isn't it? No, it was true If you're not going to take that on for Donian, isn't it? No, no, no, you're in trouble It's like giving a satchin out LBW What would you've done? Well, I did do that.

Amously. Yeah, thankfully it was overturned and I got out of India after. I remember a game when Nigel Long gave, I think he gave Satching out once off Johnson. What was this, Michael Johnson? Slippery, back of a length bowler

just pitched outside, by a fingernail. Anyway, no DRS. We get to Hyderabad Airport and they're burning effigies of Longy. And I'm like, wow, I ain't giving him out. You gave Saturn out in the semi-final

of the World Cup. Yeah, I did, yeah. Right, Dave Neves, I'm a league umpire. Oh. I was officiating a T20 cup match on Sunday and a right-arm bowler was pulling to a left-handed batsman. He decided to bowl round the

wicket. His first delivery saw him finish right in front of me. I couldn't see where the ball ended up but I suspected it was a wide as I couldn't make a decision either way and so no team either benefited or lost out I called it a dead ball. Fielding side weren't happy about this but did I make the correct decision? The only thing that you give away in that is the guess that it may have been a wide yeah and I'd say umpiring is not a great vehicle to be guessing in. A few have had a go, though.

Yeah, I don't worry. Don't worry. I've had more than my share. Don't worry. And when it's come up on that screen cat, correct, oh, blah. It's not a dead ball.

What you've got to do is insist that the bowler moves away. Yes. Because you cannot judge. So you can tell him that. Oh, yeah. Very much so.

Get off the pitch. Get off. This is my pitch. It's not yours. Right. No, and that's the big thing in modern day cricket, is that I don't think on occasions we're strong enough for it.

Though the differences, the pitches are much harder in England and places like that, Australia, New Zealand, they don't make so much damage. But as you know, going to India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, the soils are lighter, and bowlers running up and down there makes serious craters scuffing up. Proper scuffing. So you have to be very aware. And the other thing about it, it's a bit like Keith Barker, he came over the wicket and he run down a wicket where you couldn't see the moon let alone

wickets I mean he's a big boy cove yeah right got with here yes we had an amazing situation ball came through to me as keeper asked for a catch for a clear nick noise then looked the leg bail undisturbed off bail perched on off stump what is the decision outstanding brilliant decision and is you giving it out? I don't know. No, what's the decision? Not out.

The bales are still there. They're undisturbing the other ones on top of the stump. Got to be on the deck. What, not just out of the grooves? It's actually got to fall on the floor. So if it's, oh right, so if it's just sort of perched there, swizzled round and stays on top of it, that's not out. I thought it was understood.

Did you see every year you'd heard something? I might be totally wrong there, but I thought, I hope not. You're the professional. No, I'm not. You know that cat. The thing is about it, I had a miracle, you know when you say about guessing?

Yes. I had a miracle decision of a greatest guess I've ever had in my life. It was at Cape Town. And Dale Stain, who was one of the greatest out swing bowlers at him through, was bowling to a very unhelpful Harbourjohn singing. He didn't want to get behind a ball here, Arbor John.

And Dale's bowl one that's pitched off and just held its line. And Arbor John is playing it through Midwitchin. So in my humble opinion He cannot hit this I hear a noise But I think I'm going with my gut feeling So I gave it not out

They went bonkers Absolutely bonkers South Africa's trying to bowl India out Anyway it came up It did it at the bail And everyone said that it was great decisions It was the greatest guess in history

Because I didn't think the battle was good enough to Oh no Oh so you used a little bit of your A quick cricket sort of... Yeah, you do, cat. Yeah. You do a little bit, you know,

you know, I've John it in that. No. Thatching ain't it in it. If Sachin ain't it in it, he ain't it in it. I mean, especially when he's a couple of feet, leg side of it. Yeah. And that face is going over the back of you.

So it must have been the stump. That's what... That's how you sort of worked in it. Bell ringing in the distance, for a couple more. Oh, thank God. No, you haven't finished yet. If this ever happens, I'd love to see it.

But Stuart from Berkhamstead, in a T-20 international, the bats from clubs are six over deep midwicked. It triggers the fire cannons that surround the boundary into action. Unfortunately, just as the ball is flying over the rope, the closest fire cannon shoots up into the sky and incinerates the cricket ball, leaving a mere puff of dust. Is it a six, or is it a dead ball?

Where is you doing this game? Gibraltar or somewhere like that. I don't know where he's doing it, but it's... A cannon? They do go off, don't there, those things? They shoot up. Are you talking about on the boundary? On the boundary edge, poof, those...

Hopefully they're behind. It'll be a high if they're in front. It's already gone for six. It's already gone. Yeah, so it can incinerate the ball all the night. And then we've got to find another one. The ball. Got to find another ball of the similar ilk.

Yep, there you are, Stuart. It's not easy. No, it's not. I'd like to see it. Have you been past one of those cannons when they go off? Yeah, they're not. They're not fun, are they? No, no.

You feel the heat from them. Not with a bry nylon umpiring shirt on. They're not too clever. You do, you feel the heat. Yeah. You do feel the heat. Tough is you got another one? Yes, here we go.

I was watching the Women's World Cup game on Monday. the ball was heading towards the boundary when someone stopped the ball short of the rope and threw it to a fielder. The person who stopped it was not a player but perhaps a member of one of the teams is it still four? It's a bit like here all the time, isn't it?

With the pigeons, if it's the pigeon. Yes, bless them. If, yeah, the umpires of the sole, I believe the umpires are the sole judges of whether it would have gone for four and that's it. Yeah. You know, I had it in India once,

one of the boys were fielding, ball boys were running it outside. And he just, incitement, just come running on and hurled it back. You left the field ringing because it was still going like a trace the bullet. I think common sense approaches if you think it's going for four. Just give it a four. I like the signal cap. Yeah, did you used to practice? Did you sort of be in the mirror?

Did you? According to Law 29, right? of the laws of cricket. At least one bail must be fully removed from its grooves. A temporary disturbance of the bail if it shifts but

stays on the stumps does not count as a dismissal. Oh. Look at that right. Gunna, you are correct. Oh, my life. You are correct. You've passed your first test.

Right, I'm straight into the beehive. Good God. A bit of pressure on, but you've come through it. Yeah. If you'd have seen the state of me, after the last couple of days, trying to go through that little blue book.

And as Grandfather once said, I can't see you being an umpire because you've got a tension span of a nap. I can't thank Graham for that. Well, that's a tremendous debut. Yes. Can I know well done? The bail done me.

No, no, you've got it right. I've got sweaty armpits in the bail. You got it right. You're there. Well done, mate. Thank you. Lovely to see you. And we'll see you again.

We'll see him again. If you're right. Yeah, we'll have you back. Is that right? Yeah, we'll think of some more weird and wonderful ones, man.

There's some there, cat. There's some there that I've, well on, well on, Ian. And welcome, welcome to the team.

Yes. Love it to have you with us. There we go. Ian, Ian Gould. Terrific. Great stuff. And bang on there

with the, with the challenging one at the end. So well done. The TMS podcast. From BBC Radio 5 Live. Five Lights for...

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