Test Match Special - England find form ahead of World Cup defence.

Episode Date: September 15, 2023

Jonathan Agnew is joined by James Anderson and Jeremy Coney to assess how England’s ODI team look ahead of the World Cup. They review the series win against New Zealand, hear from England captain Jos Buttler, player of the series Dawid Malan and Kiwi captain Tom Latham. Plus the journalist panel of Stephan Shemilt, John Etheridge and Will Macpherson discuss the Harry Brook conundrum, the ODI return of Ben Stokes and Andrew Flintoff working with the England side.

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Follow every ball of every match on Sports Extra and BBC Sounds. I'm Jonathan Agnew and welcome to the TMS podcast. To come, we'll be assessing how England's white ball team are looking after competing a series win against New Zealand. We'll hear from Josh Bacler and David Boulan and get analysis from Jimmy Anderson and Jeremy Coney and our journalist panel discuss the Harry Brook conundrum, the one-day international return of Ben Stokes

and Andrew Flintoff working with the England side. I'm going to chew over what we've seen here today and over the last week or so in this series. But just to quickly put some detail onto today, England chose to bat first. They made some changes, including Ben Stokes being rested today. And also Chris Wokes, 311 for 9, built spectacularly around that 100 by David Boulogne. He made 127, Route 29, dropped a couple times in that. Harry Brooke made just 10. Doss Butler made 36, so 311 for 9.

In the course of that, New Zealand did suffer a couple of injuries and actually quite a potentially serious ones, Tim Southey, who's had a fractured thumb and also dislocated. That was one of the catches actually that Joe Root offered. And that must surely put a bit of a doubt on Southey's availability, certainly for the start of the World Cup. But anyway, we'll keep an eye on all of that. And then New Zealand chasing 312 to win, never really got going.

Nichols made 41 England just chipped away but it was an excellent 61 there from Revingra from 48 boards at least livening things up at the end albeit inevitably in a losing cause 211 all out

and the main wicket taker was Moinelli 4 for 50 he was on a hat trick at one stage and others chipped in Willie Cass Curran and Livingston taking a wicket each so England in the series 3-1 having been hammered in the first match of this series

and actually found themselves in all sorts of trouble in the second as well but they extricated themselves from that thanks to Liam Livingston and then the comfortable victories over the last three days or so of the Oval and then to hear so jimmy anderson is alongside me so to jeremy codyous to go through things let's start with you jeremy shall be because i mean i think new zealand after that first win in cardiff and the way they won we're pretty disappointed this evening it's been a chastening visit to london certainly hasn't for the for the two games that have been held here in the venues.

I don't know what to say, really. I mean, the top order, just not functioning really with the bat. Not able to stay into some accurate bowling. Certainly, wokes can be a bit difficult. There's no doubt about that. And so can the ball moving. But these are international players. They are experienced players.

100 for Conway and then nothing else. You need to be better than that at international level. And so that's been very disappointing to watch for me. And then, of course, having exposed the middle order to it, New Zealand's order basically finishes at seven. So five down and you can nearly be all out. Because who's number eight? It's usually one of the bowlers.

and they don't use the bat. So it's, you know, that's quite brittle the whole thing. And therefore, our bowlers have got to, if you're going to play them, they've got to be hell of a good bowlers. They've got to get wickets, you know. And it includes certainly people like Jameson who they're bringing here to get overs and their legs and get some confidence and build up some pace again

and some consistency. Yes, that's a slightly different issue. But, you know, Saudi... Yeah, I mean, that's just quite serious, potential, isn't it? Oh, that's a big loss for New Zealand, but at the same time his pace has come down so significantly

that the distance between his slower pace off and pace on is now getting quite close together, so almost as a batsman you set up for the slower one. And when he puts the pace on, that's okay, we can handle that as well. So he hasn't got much option, you see.

When he drags down short a bit, he gets hammered and he's gone for 70 odd in the one and he's gone for 69 and another and so he's actually leaking runs quite badly and he's one of the centre pieces of the attack Henry's, I mean he's okay but I'm not quite sure whether he's a you know he's a death bowler at this stage

it's all a bit little bit the same for me and I think you need to do things in the modern game a wee bit differently at the end So can you see Jameson potentially going He might take it? I mean just say Saudi is not fit at least the stars The World stuff It's got to be really those two I think

It's got to be out of those two. And at least I don't know how serious his hamstring is or not, I don't know. Well, they pushed him out to bat. Jimmy, on the other hand, I mean, even from having been hammered in that first game, really, and in all sorts of trouble in the second, I mean, in some ways, actually, I suspect England will look back at that second game at the Ajeas and think, well, you know, if we can get ourselves out of that sort of a mess and go on to win a game. I mean, that was the big sort of turnaround in confidence, wasn't it?

Yeah, well, I think ideally you don't get yourself into that situation. but if you do, it's nice to have people to get yourself out of it. Livingston play brilliantly, along with Curran as well, coming in an eight. I think he's really handy at eight and more than useful with the ball as well. So I'm sure he'll play a big part in India. But yeah, I feel like it's a positive few games for England. There's plenty of players in sort of decent touch with the bat. You know, there's one or two worries.

I'd say Bearstone Root, probably the two where you'd want to see a little bit more from them in this series but I think they're also experienced enough to be able to turn it on when they get out to India they're not really having to prove anything as such are they they just is whether they're in form or not really yeah yeah would you be concerned if say

South Africa really bowled well against them and let's say Norkey is there that they removed the first full ball four batsmen pretty quickly as to what's going to come after that yes exactly yeah Mouin and co down there is there I mean every

every team is going to be in trouble if you lose four quickly, to a certain extent. England did against New Zealand, let's face it, at the Adjia, and they still came back to win. Yeah, I mean,

what, sort of Livingston, Moing, exactly. Sam Curran, that's that sort of area. Yeah, there's some reasonable players in there. Oh, I think, I'm agreeing with you in a sense, but I just wondered if you lost that, the Malarns and so on, would those lower players be able to hand?

handle. Yeah, I think so. You even throw Wokes into that mix. Wokes has been a pivotal part of this one day. So for a long time, he's more than useful with the bat. Probably about eight or nine, depending on if they play him anchoring. But it just feels like England have got plenty of good options there.

And I feel like New Zealand have probably just... Oh, New Zealand haven't. Yeah, but one thing I would say about New Zealand is you put Kane Williamson back into that batting lineup and maybe that just then freeze up a Devon Conway. He frees up a Daryl Mitchell a little bit more having that solidity in that top top five. And I just, you know, he's a huge player for them. He has been for many years.

We can have the look of about two or three anchors. See, you know what I mean? You could have Conway, you could have Williams and you could have Latham. Yes. You know, they all look a little bit similar. And so I hope that it does free them up to play. I mean, we haven't see them being freeing up here at all. No.

Knocking a one, knocking a... Come on. show us what you can do. It didn't seem very busy, did they really? I think they're not very positive. What are England going to do with their final decision, I suppose, it is, isn't it? It's Roy Stroke Brook, who just hasn't made, he's been given three pretty decent chances, isn't? I know people say he was batting out of position when he opened, but that's not a bad place

to bat in this form of the game, is it? Let's be honest. And then he went back to number four today and didn't really look set. So, I mean, he's had its opportunities, which he hasn't taken. but yet there's no sign of Roy. So what are you going to do with that? I mean, I saw Jason Roy on the field today. He was taking high catches and playing with a rugby ball and running around.

He looked like he was pretty much pain free. Right. So for me, he goes in that World Cup squad because I feel like he's played a big enough part over the last couple of years. And Andy has talked about his stats and the hundreds that he's got for England. he's actually been in decent Nick when he has played. So for me, you know, Brooke wasn't in that initial World Cup squad, so he doesn't, he's not done anything to make me think he has to go or, you know,

you know what, I'm sure he will. If Roy is not fit to go on that play, and I'm sure Brooke will be the one to replace him. But at the minute, if Roy's fit, he definitely goes. You need someone at the top order to have a backup for the top order, don't you? Yes, yes. It would look a bit of a mistake by the selectors too, I guess, wouldn't it?

If they did that little switch and suddenly brooks in, it looked like it took a bit of pressure from, a bit of heat from outside. Yeah, well, something they've done over the, you know, even longer than the last four years, the last cycle, work-up cycle,

is show faith in players and particularly Jason Roy. He's been one who's been very, very up and down with his form. But the captain, whether it was Owen Morgan or Josh Butler, and the coaches as well, have shown faith in him. And then that started to bear fruit

in the last couple of years until he got injured here. you know, I feel like he's done enough to be in that team or certainly be in the squad. And then there will be a decision to make when they get out to Winderie. If he is in the squad, you know, Milan's done so well here in this series. Who opens the bat in? Does Milan slide down to three?

But then you've got Root Stokes. Does that make it too long in that sort of, you know, middle orderish? But that's getting to a point, I think, where that's a good one. You know, that's a good thing to ask yourself. do we, how do we fit them all in? And that's not a bad problem to happen.

Yeah, no, no, absolutely. We may get an interview before we say farewell. In fact, we can right now. Alison Mitchell, who's with you? Yes, I've got England captain. Josh Butler is here. Josh, you must be really pleased with the way the side has progressed through this one day series and some thumping victories.

Yeah, absolutely. We've improved no end from the first game, which is great. Obviously, been a while since the team had been together. So it's nice to see that progression and finish with a really good win in a series win here at Lords today. Has today particularly told you anything you didn't know

or cemented anything that you thought in terms of nailing this final World Cup squad? Yeah, I think the main thing it cements is the style of play that really suits us. We went out and tried to be aggressive on a little bit of a slow wicket. I thought Milan was excellent. Again, a fantastic 100.

He was positive. He took the game on. He really put the opposition under pressure. and we tried to do that throughout the whole lineup. And there weren't many other big contributions, but all the way through everyone who batted sort of impacted the game and got us up to what I thought

was a really good score on a pitch like today. Is it particularly significant for David that he's shown he's able to score runs and at that kind of tempo as an opener? Yeah, absolutely. I think he's played brilliantly. He's been very consistent every time he's had his opportunity. He can play in a couple of different styles,

obviously opening the batting or probably number three as well. Yeah, we know he's got that game. We've asked everyone to try and be a bit more aggressive and he certainly showed that as well today. We know the talent of Harry Brooke. Did you hope to see a little bit more of that tonight? Was that seen as another opportunity for him coming in to replace Ben Stokes?

Yeah, every game's an opportunity, isn't it? And good players like Harry, you know, you're expecting them to score runs. He's a top, top player. But it doesn't happen every day. Some days you get out and you don't read too much. And you gave me a bit of an update on injuries at the start of the match but in terms of the squad being named

we're told that's now going to be next week. Does that just give players like Adil Rashid, Jason Roy, still a little bit of time? Yeah, absolutely it allows us some time to gather information and especially when the games are going on, you know, it's a bit hard to know exactly where people are at

or there's lots of moving parts obviously and now the series is finished allows us to work out where everyone's at, how we We need to use that island series potentially as well. So yes, take a little bit of time. And just want to ask you as well about Andrew Flintoff being with the squad throughout this series.

What's, what's he brought for you guys? And what do you believe that you have given him in this time as well? Yeah, it's been absolutely amazing. I've loved having him around the dressing room. He's fitted in so well. It's quite surreal, to be honest, to have Andrew Flintoff in the dressing room with you. No sort of ego.

You wouldn't realize it's Andrew Flintoff and all of us, I think, been in awe a little bit of him. He's just given his sort of expertise where he can. He's helped out where he can. And he's just been great to have him around. So, yeah, if he wants to be involved in cricket more, I think we'd love to have him back if we could. He seems to enjoy being around the group as well.

Congratulations on the series win. And good luck in the further lead-up and heading off to India. Thank you. Thanks. Yeah, thanks to Ali and to Josh Butter. I think things pretty much into perspective there, didn't he? Yeah, I mean, he's not going to say that Harry Brooks missed an opportunity, but you sort of read it between the lines there, I think, I think. And also, I'm interested about him to about Milan.

Of course, he can bat at three. He dropped that in there as well. Yeah, well, I wouldn't be surprised if that happens. And, yeah, I mean, Harry Book, he had a few opportunities this series. And, you know, even if he'd have taken one or two of them, I still don't think he would have made that squad. Obviously, Roy's fitness depending. but yeah it's one of those things

as just said you can't do it every day he's had such a good international career so far Harry Brook in his very short international career and I'm sure he will get his time in the future but potentially it's not right now in this World Cup Big last question for you Jimmy you're not going to India but what about England's prospects

realistically do you think England can go and win a World Cup in India I do yeah I honestly do I feel like they've got the sort of balance of team that you need. They've got the options that they need. They've got the pace. They've got Atkinson and Wood, the extra pace that you need. They've got accuracy in Curran, Willie, Topley, Wokes.

You know, there's plenty there for that. The spin options. Rashid, I think, being fits quite a big one. But Livingston's shown you can do a decent job with a spin. Moeen with a spin as well. And then we've talked about England's batting line up and how you're going to fit them all in. Thanks, Jimmy. Well, let's hear from the player of the series, David Milan, speaking with Alison Mitchell. David, congratulations on the 100. This series has just got better and better for you, hasn't it?

Yeah, it's been nice. Obviously, leading into the World Cup, there's a little bit of talk about the squad and what have you, so it's nice to get some runs under the board and hopefully to get on the plane. Did you find it, have you found it easy or challenging putting talk out of your mind? And you mentioned that it's something that you've heard. Yeah, there's been a bit of noise around. There's always noise around World Cups. you know, especially when the media and the pundits want someone else in, there's always going to be a bit of noise. You know, but that's our job where there's always a bit of pressure when we play. And if there's no pressure, then I don't think it means as much.

So, yeah, look, it's nice to do it when it matters. And hopefully I can continue that if I get the nod. And three figures at Lords as well. So all eyes are on the World Cup. It's also nice to get your name up on the honours board here as well. Yeah, definitely. I've played so much cricket here at Lords. I've been part of Middlesex for years.

So, you know, sometimes you look in the change room, all you see is the England players on the board and the odd Middlesex captain and what have you so it's nice to be able to have my name on that board and yeah it's an extremely proud moment. Getting three figures, I mean just missing out at the Oval as well was just that little bit of extra determination to make sure you got over the line this time.

Yeah, definitely. When I got myself set today and got in, I was extremely determined to get to that three figure mark. You know, I felt I missed out the other day getting strangled on the leg side. I was absolutely gutted with that. But yeah, to be able to get there, I had a bit of luck just before I got to it

and, you know, thankfully I got there in the end. And how do you feel your game would translate, then, to pitches in India, somewhat different to conditions playing here? Yeah, look, I think they're either really, really good or they can turn. You know, I think one of the things that everyone forgets is that it's a high-scoring country as well when the wickets are good. Obviously, it does turn and it can turn, but, you know, I've played a little bit of cricket out there and hopefully the experience that I've had from there in Bangladesh

and playing in Pakistan can put me in good stead for that World Cup. The series was a little disrupted with you making a visit back home, birth of your second child as well how's everyone back home and does that also you know added motivation yeah brilliant um it's been a stressful sort of month i guess driving up and down and keep getting a few scares you know after the t-20 one we thought we my wife thought she was giving birth then and then that was drove back and then that was a false one then back to cardiff and then the next morning got the call hurry up so it's been a bit stressful has been a bit on my mind off the field um you know so thankfully that's out the way now and and both are healthy and

and safe at home um so yeah looking forward to spending a bit of time with them now Congratulations on the 100, David, and all best wishes to the family as well. Well done. Thanks, sir. That's Davy Milan with Alison, who also spoke with the New Zealand captain, Tom Latham. Tom, the series started off really strongly for you guys in Cardiff. Where do you see yourselves at now two and a half weeks away from the first game of the World Cup? Yeah, as you said, we started with a hiss and awe, I guess, in Cardiff.

But I guess the last three performances, probably haven't been up to where we would have liked. I think, you know, probably with the bat, we haven't been able to build partnerships, you know, throughout those three games. And when you're chasing big scores, it's important to put partnerships together and give yourself a chance at the back end of the game. But unfortunately, we haven't been able to do that the last couple of games. Big blow today with the injury to Tim Salvey. What's your understanding or your hope about the timeline for a fracture and a dislocation of the thumb? Yeah, obviously, a confirmed fracture there.

So obviously not ideal for Timmy, but I'm sure over the coming days, you know, when we get home, he'll be assessed. And I'm sure there'll be a plan to come up with. But, yeah, I'm sure he'll be doing all he can to be really. ready for the World Cup. Some players have got some time in Bangladesh, some going home. Do you think the rest will be as good as getting some game time in conditions more akin to India?

Yeah, absolutely. I think over the last sort of couple of months, guys have been at different stages, have been playing around the world. Different tournament. Some guys have been at home. So I guess a good mix of some guys are going to get a rest. And we've got a big sort of couple of months coming up, especially post-World cup as well. So I guess when you get the opportunity, it's important to get a bit of rest.

and some guys off to go to Bangladesh and hopefully continue a bit of form that they've got. Good luck, fingers crossed for all those injuries, Tom, and good luck for the World Cup. Cheers, thank you very much. The TMS podcast, watch the highlights of every day's play on BBC Eye Player. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms. A weighting depth of 900 millimetres and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca.

Maisie Adam here. Now, the Transfield window may have slammed shut, but Luke Edwards and I are going nowhere. Join us every weekday for Football Gossip Daily. Super, super stuff! The Football Gossip Daily podcast with Maisie Adam. If you're looking for the truth behind the whispers and insight into what is really happening across the football, World, then we're the podcast for you.

More drama, more twists, more turns. And you can find us only on BBC Sounds, so just search for Football Gossip Daily. The Football Gossip Daily podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. The TMS podcast. Follow the games live on the BBC Sport website and app, where you can watch highlights during the match. Now, this is, of course, the last one day international for the Fullington side, before they leave for India for the World

Cup. A lot of talking points around of course and we've been chatting them through haven't we? The last four games or so will Jason Roy be fit? What about Harry Brooke? He didn't do his chances a huge amount of good I didn't think today with that 10 from 15 balls but there are other opportunities

maybe with Roy's situation. Ben Stokes coming back and after all canning to retain the trophy one here against New Zealand four years ago. So our journalist panel, Will McPherson from the Telegraph John Etheridge from the son on our own Stefan Schemelt for the BBC Sport website. So, good afternoon, gentlemen.

Are we going to leave Milan alone now? What do we think? I mean, it's amazing, isn't it? How many times he's written out? I'm not accusing him, pointing fingers here necessarily. But it's extraordinary how he seems to be the one that people point the finger out. That's his fifth century in 15 innings. I'm a huge fan of Darwin, but I'm also happy to admit that when I was asked to name a 15-man squad for the World Cup, I left him out.

And I'm not leaving him out now, as you guess. They do have a difficult decision to make over the next few days. But Milan is just unbelievably consistent in this format. And you look at his England career as a whole. And Test cricket, he had his moments without ever really cracking it. And he sort of was working so hard, but it never just quite happened. T20 cricket, he's been an excellent servant for England. But there was always that sense that he was maybe a bit of a slow starter, reaching really hard.

But in this format, he's just absolutely perfect. combine those two issues and it sort of works it's worked so nicely and there's no way he should be in the starting 11th I met about on the 5th October that should be beyond question now I think that's Will McPherson from the telegraphed

John Etheridge he was sort of the victim if you like of the Harry Brook Juggernaut which everyone's impossible England can't go to the World Cup without Harry Brooke but that juggernaut has come to a bit of a bit of a halt to be perfectly honest and I think you know Milan has proved that he absolutely should be in the squad

and probably should be in the starting 11 as well, regardless of Jason Roy's form and fitness. So the only way I think Harry Brooke gets in now is if they decide that Roy is not fit enough to go. But Milan and Bear Star, I think they've got to open the innings in that first game. Done a word on Milan, Stefan? Just extraordinary, isn't it? He refuses to go away.

And I mean that in the nicest possible sense, in that there's been quite a few iterations of Darwin Milan as an international cricketer. And here he is towards the end of his career, or much nearer the end of his career than the start. and he seems to have found this perfect role for himself at the top of the order in one day cricket. And I do wonder, he was left out of the test side, wasn't he, at the end of that Ashes series? When he didn't, okay, he certainly hadn't done any worse than anyone else.

And the England test batting order almost ended up as the last men in the door got the chances under Stokes and McCollum. How might he have gone if he'd been given the chance in the test side? Yeah, indeed. Okay, let's try and sort this problem that they've got then. I mean, Jason Roy, it's looking, I guess, and you've all intimated it, that he's kind of looking as the replacement reserve, well, not replacement, but reserve bats in the squad now that Berto,

although he could do some runs, but he hasn't taken it, but they will play Bairstow and Milan had got going. So what, he's going to play against Ireland, presumably. Butler suggested it. I don't think that was the plan. Even as recently as a couple of days ago, I don't think it was the plan for Jason Roy to be playing in those games against Ireland. But Butler said it to Ali Mitchell earlier on that he might have a hit.

When England picked their squad, the intention was for Roy and Baxter to open, Root at 3, Stokes at 4, and Milan was going as the batting cover as someone who could either open the batting or play in the middle order. Now it looks like Milan has made his case that the opening position is his own. And so that Roy, if he is fit enough to go, is probably going to be the one who gets squeezed out of that top 4. so the question for England is one is Roy going to be fit enough to schlep around England for seven weeks on all those internal flights

and secondly is he versatile enough to be a batting reserve so we know that Harry Brooke gives you that little bit of versatility and that he covers a number of different positions now you could say well if you've got Milan anyway you could slide down the order and Jason Roy goes in to open

is that ideal I'm not sure England are back in Jason Roy, aren't there? He was such a key performer when they won the World Cup four years ago. They've backed a lot of players that won them the World Cup four years ago. I suppose the other interesting question is by not playing in this series, has he also not allowed himself or not been given the opportunity to be under pressure with a couple of low scores with that Harry Brooke juggernaut coming on?

It's like John quite rightly says. He hasn't really taken the chance, Brooke, that was unexpected. But it's a really interesting situation. I think Will's right when he says England have got a bit of a difficult decision to make over the next couple of days. I would argue that if we're settling on the fact that Milan is going to open the innings and then you're talking about a spare batter, then it's, and then you're comparing Brooke and Roy, I think it's Brooke every day of a week because he offers you an option at one to seven,

to be honest, one to five really, but one to seven if he's required. I think Stokes is like, there's a good chance he misses a game or two just because of a knee, just management, they might look at the fixture list, especially if things are going well, they might leave him out, and then Brooke would come in at number four and look like quite a nice replacement there, whereas Roy, he covers positions one and two, whereas I reckon Brooke covers one to seven, and David Willie, John and I think maybe you as well, Stephen, did a press conference with David Willie on Tuesday before the game at the Oval, and he, slightly strangely, without prompting, volunteered himself. He described himself as England's donkey for the World Cup.

which, you know, it was doing himself a bit of a disservice. But I actually think this tournament will be a tournament where you need a donkey or two. It's not going to be like 2019, where England, all these players were four years younger and they just about pick the same 11 for every game. I think Mark would miss one game. Liam Plunkett maybe missed one game. But otherwise, it was just everyone goes straight through. You've got a first choice 11.

It won't be like that. I think it was going to be a bit of rotation. Mark Woods, 34 in January. Chris Wokes is 34. Reese Topley's very injury prone. Ben Stokes, Johnny Bearstow's still not that long off a really bad injury and he's now not just keeping

but he's running around in the outfield as well so I think England need cricketers who can endure during this tournament and are not going to be pulling out with back spasms and muscle injuries. I was going to say if you take one of those into the tournament and they might not look too kindly anyway if you have another issue need to be replaced

well that's the point I mean but it is a long tournament it's seven weeks plus and England's we've got 10 round robbing matches before they even get to the lockout stage And, you know, people can come into form and Milan looks a million dollars now in a month. Maybe he can't buy a run.

A fortnight ago he couldn't buy a run. He scored three runs, 15 balls in his two 20-20 innings. So form does ebb and flow. And, you know, it looks fine now. You think, you know, it's going to be Berser and it's going to be Milan. But maybe in a month's time, one of those guys are completely out of Nick. I mean, Berser is, you know, very much a streaky player as well.

He comes, you know. And Roy could be the guy that want to come in with his power and aggression. But he's a streaky player as well. he goes nought, nought, nought, a hundred, nought, not, isn't he? I mean, so it's a tricky one. I think I'd be inclined to take Roy. I know he's got this issue with the back and, you know, and it is a worry that he keeps waking up with his spasms

and he can't move and so on and struggles to move. But maybe playing the first two games against Ireland, hope he gets a few runs there, gets a bit of form, gets a bit of confidence as well, you know, I think he's pretty distraught, but not playing in these games and seeing potentially his place in the World Cup being taken away from him. But I think I would probably take him ahead of Brook

and take Booker's the travelling reserve. It's going to be a tough tournament, isn't it? I mean, for those who aren't playing, well, tough for those who are playing. We don't know what the pitch is going to be like. You might have a couple of failures. How do you get some form of confidence back of off and batting in the nets?

And those who are waiting to come in, it's just nets, isn't it? And a bit of middle practice and that's a lot. You're travelling around all over the place. England have got 10 games in 10 different cities in the knockout stage, or this way, the round robbing stage. 10 different sort of conditions. Some are baking hot, some not so hot.

It's going to be some pitchers will suit the seamers, other will turn square. You know, it's difficult to get a kind of rhythm and form going, you know. So it's quite apart from the carbon footprint. Yeah, yeah. Were you sort of when the Harry Brooke handed the air, what's going on, why hasn't he been picked? I looked, I'll admit, I looked down the squad

and initially didn't notice he wasn't there because I was so confident that he would be in it. But when the Stokes news happened, something had to give. And I just, I think everyone was looking at Milan maybe. but kind of flew under the radar a little bit. I think the structure of the squad, I will say that.

Some people say, I'll just replace David Willie with Harry Brooke. I think they've got the structure of the squad right. I think they need lots of bowlers. I agree with the Stokes not bowling issue. That is what makes the squad what it is because they've got a top four butler at five, then essentially everyone else in the 11 is going to have to be able to bowl.

They haven't used a lot of Joe Root. I've been slightly surprised at that. Yeah, when you thought that actually it was, some of Roots Offspin might be quite useful in the World Cup in India. He hasn't bowled a lot. I mean, the pitches have been more sort of seamer-friendly across these one day, so you can see maybe why he hasn't been used. But Livingston getting some runs has been a real bonus,

not a bonus for England, but it's been good news for England because he's going to be such a key part. He is the all-rounder essentially replacing Stokes, who's now a specialist batter. So having Livingston in form, that sort of ticks a box for England, and it removes him from the equation of someone who might have been replaced by Harry Brooke. And then, as John sort of alluded to, all the different conditions that England are going to find going around India. This isn't just going to be a competition that's dominated by spin. Some of the pitches will be really good for batting.

Some might bounce. The ball might nip around in places. They're going to need all these different types of bowlers depending on where they are. Yeah, it is. It's going to be a very interesting tournament, actually. Were you surprised at Ben Stokes? I mean, coming back on it? I was.

I mean, because we spoke to him before the final test match of the Oval, and he was unequivocal I've retired from 50 over cricket that's the end of it I'm not going to change my mind but in fact it now transpires that he and Butler

had been sort of plotting this comeback since April since they first spoke he does like to close down conversations Stokes I mean I interviewed him a lot this summer and it was an interesting Ashley's series

obviously to keep interviewing the captain on one on one basis if there's something doesn't want to talk about an area doesn't want to go down he'll just close it down like that He didn't give answers, but the answers were very much, well, I'm not going to come back into 50 over cricket, and I want to get my knee sorted before the six-month window, get my knee sorted before the Test Series in India early in 2024. So he certainly pulled the world over most of our eyes.

But, I mean, I think he's enjoying being back in the team not as captain. Being test captain in the ashes, particularly, all that attention, the high-profile stuff. But it's hard work. So I think, you know, he's enjoying being here just as a player. Obviously, he's consulted by Butler and so on. But he's just a player, and obviously saw the other day. He's incredible. It's a special form, you know.

So once he made himself available, even though he can't bowl, it was a no-brainer to have him back. Yeah. You surprised Will or not? A little bit. I kind of felt certainly when it happened, when he retired last summer, I was surprised. And I just thought he's such an intransigent character sometimes. this won't be reversed and I was in

I did both the tours in South Africa and Bangladesh earlier this year and I had all the noises out of England were we're not you know you never know but we're not we're really not expecting this we're planning for World Cup entirely without him but then obviously as John mentioned him and Butler had a little chat of the IPL

and I think pretty much from then once Stokes got through the first couple of Ashes tests and Butler made it clear that he'd have him as a batsman only I think he was probably always going to go. Yeah, I mean, of course, that his knee is still issue. Well, this is the issue. So what's going to happen with this? Because again, that's somewhere where I tried the other day, again,

interviewed Mac Cardiff, to try and get some sort of idea of what he's going to do it. And again, he gave nothing away, really, except to say that he's going to be doing it between the World Cup and the India test series. He says he's got a plan in place, but I'm not quite sure. He didn't talk about surgery or anything. I'm not even sure he knows exactly what's going to happen. But it suggests, if he were to have serious surgery after the World Cup, I don't think he'd be fit to bowl in India. I mean, he'd be fit to play in India.

I mean, it's two months, isn't it? He said in Cardiff, and I think you interviewed him that day as well, I guess, that he, um, his, his aim is to be back bowling next summer. But being a full all-rounder next summer. So my reading of it is that he's going to, and he's got, so he's got tendinitis and I think the feeling is that an operation isn't guaranteed to sort anything out anyway. So after this World Cup, my best guess is he's going to have a kind of clean up

clean-out operation which might rule him out of six weeks cricket so he's back for India he'll play there as a specialist batter and then by next summer he's kind of built himself up to be bowling again I think he's going to he certainly when the news happened that he was going to go to the World Cup the feeling was that he was he is prepared to miss the IPL to have a go at winning the World Cup so whether he still feels he needs to not be at the IPI with all that's associated with that gig, we'll see. I think his exact words to you are something like this winter is about the World Cup and getting the knee sorted.

I don't think we've got time to sort of discuss the implications of Ben Stokes not bowling in India on England's 11. I mean, they might have to ask if they can pick about 14 players to balance the side out. I thought at the time when he was talking at the Oval, he was so convincing I'd never ever want to play poker. against Ben Stokes because it seemed like he had this whole story laid out of what he was going to do during what could have been a six-month break from cricket up to the India series, where that leaves him.

But again, closing it and closing down the conversation, didn't he? He said, did it quite deliberately. The only thing I can think of is just in that little huddle that we had in the nets at the Oval, where he just said, he got asked, oh, what are you going to do during that time? Like, you know, are you going to miss being around? And he said, oh, yeah, I'll get bored after three or four weeks. I might have to arrange a practice game amongst the lads. And I just wonder if that's a little hint of he knew what was coming.

He's gave a little bit away. I liked what he said too, but actually he's bored not bowling. He's fed up of just hanging around in the field and not actually bowling. His whole identity is all-rounder, isn't it? It's kind of action man, always doing something. That's what he said. I mean, I've always been an all-rounder, and I want to get back to that. I want to be a fully-fledged, proper, genuine all-rounder.

Just watching as if Joffra is still out there. He was bowling a moment or so ago. He was wearing headband, wasn't he? he was sort of doing his Stuart Broad impersonation before the start. I had a white headband on with Archer bowling and flint off catching him with a baseball mid.

I wouldn't have guessed on that a week or so I go, would you? No, no, you wouldn't. But in fact, I can't see it there now, but he was definitely bowling a few moments ago. But we're just sort of just quietly monitoring that and not expecting huge amounts at the moment and just see what happens.

It's interesting that England have sort of made these noises about Juffer Archer potentially being a travelling reserve for the World Cup. Well, firstly, I think my understanding is the travelling reserves don't actually have to travel. They're not going to travel.

Yeah, so they could just be reserves. In Dubai or something. Yeah, and certainly for someone like Harry Brooke, who I don't think barely slept in his own bed for the past year, to have him going around carrying the drinks in India when he could be at home and doing whatever he needs to do back here to be ready to be called up if needed. That seems like a much more sensible option.

I think with Geoffre Archer, the way that England are talking about, we might try and get him ready to see if he's ready for the back end of the tournament. would you really drop someone in who has not bowled since, even if it is Joffar Archer who bowled the Super Over four years ago, would you really bring him back to play a part in some, you know, a World Cup knockout game?

Is that realistic? It's a massive, massive ask, isn't it? I'd be, he might be the reserve, but the feeling is that just the time is running out a bit. I like the idea that he might be in the Caribbean with England at Christmas for that little whiteball tour again I would be

I would probably say he shouldn't go to India for the test tour I think England have got this England regime I think have got kind of a better handle on how to use their fast bowlers I think Mark Wood we are over the next two years when we look you know they're talking about the ashes in

25 six so two years time from now I think we will only see Mark Wood in genuine important events from now on he won't play any games like this one No. Do you think you'll see Joff Archer playing a test match again? No, probably not. I mean, I obviously don't have full information on his elbow,

but all the signs are when he tries to bowl more than a handful of overs, he breaks down again. And, you know, I'm sure he'd love to play, and he would love to have him. But he hasn't, he's barely paid for two years. No. Actually, there's a little thing coming up. Do they give him a central contract? I think they probably will.

I mean, he'll million pounds a year, we're not playing. It's a bit of a dilemma, isn't it? know, but... I was quite interested in what Ben... I don't know if he said it to you or not, but Ben Stokes, in this interview last week, I asked him if he as England test captain could imagine...

I mean, we would talk about Mark Wood, and you mentioned Mark Wood, whether he would countenance someone like him coming in and out of a test series and playing franchise cricket in between, which is... It's one of those tickliest subjects at the moment, isn't it? And he said, yes, absolutely.

I mean, he seemed very relaxed about that. Now, it's not all down to him, of course. And there's all complicated. things to that but that's with with cricket being sort of a floating thing at the moment and no one really knowing quite how it's all going to settle it's like moving continents isn't it I mean where do you think that that could happen that could that could happen yeah and it could happen as soon as the India tour I think we're in the era of the England management team being real pragmatists in that Rob Key is very much a lean back and let it happen kind of character

and if it means that he has his best players around for 80% of the time, but you let them go and do something else for a little while, then he might allow that. Brendan McCollum is obviously from the world of franchise cricket. That's where England found him. But then who's calling the shots? Is Test cricket calling the shots or is franchise cricket calling the shots? Does that even matter?

Well, it turns of their employment maybe. When Will's talk about McCollum coming from franchise cricket, Well, Stokes, really, bar a short spell of Kevin Peterson being in charge at a time when he really wasn't doing a great deal of franchise stuff. Ben Stokes is England's first test captain from the franchise world. He understands it in and out. He's been the most expensive player at the IPL. He's been the MVP at the IPL.

England and a lot of other countries have essentially got rid of warm-up games for test tours. Will's right. It's a pragmatism. And if you can have Mark Wood for three. test matches in India whilst appeasning to go and play a couple of games in the ILT20 in the UAE

why wouldn't you do it instead of saying well we're not going to have you at all? I guess I asked the question because therefore in what sort of space of time if we had the massive fallout with KP wanting to go and play a bit of franchise cricket here and there and even saying absolutely no you can't do it which kind of put everything

to a head with him to players floating in and out quite happily between franchise cricket and test cricket. It's not been that what 10 years? Yeah I mean Trent Bolt is welcome back Isn't he? By New Zealand, if he's not playing, he's taking three catches. I mean, so, yeah, I mean, I think possibly Kevin was perhaps more confrontational about it than he needed to be, but that's a long time ago now. And he was, I think, instead of sort of speaking to deadly daredevil's about it,

he was sort of laying down the law a little bit with England. But in many ways, he's been proved, I suppose. Two things I want to talk about quickly. The first is these games, can they survive? these 50 over games with no real jeopardy we've been here before 10 years ago actually for that champion's trophy

I think what's changed the last 10 years is that broadcasters are less interested in paying big money to broadcast them now and they would rather show a franchise tournament whereas 10 years ago there wasn't that competition in the market and when the broadcasters lose interest the players will follow because the money

kind of follows that. So I'm not sure they can survive. I was talking about it downstairs earlier actually because I thought coming into this series this would have quite a lot on it because of the context of a World Cup and actually we've got to them it hasn't really thought like it has.

Well, New Zealand they played three the other day who weren't even in the squad. I mean it just doesn't feel there's so much cut and thrust about all sport these days and cricket has to have that cut and thrust. Full house. Exactly. Full house at the Oval, every game sold out.

Absolutely. If we say to these people should these games be played, they'll say, of course they should. Is it great there? Yeah. And you shouldn't dismiss the views of 28,000. He would prepare to cough up 80 quid ahead. That's absolutely true.

And I think many people do come. Because they come every year with their same mates. It's a day watching the cricket with an old friend from club cricket days or school or something. And they come along and they watch every year. India winning the World Cup would be a good boost for 50 over cricket. Well, it would actually. Yeah, that's a good point. Second one is going to make Andrew Flintoff.

And how good is to see him back again. I could have potted round at the Oval. He had the mitt on. you never quite know Freddie what sort of reception you might get but actually he was really genuinely pleased if you see you're so thrilled to be back

it's been a quietly inspired little move isn't it? England tried to they didn't announce anything it went completely incognita at first but he was even in Cardiff last Friday but it's been a great move obviously he's great mates with Rob Keyhe also has professional links with Richard Thompson

the ECB chair so it's a really natural fit I wouldn't be that surprised if we see him again before the end of the year in some kind of capacity so good for him I've like you I've known Fred a long time 10 years I've ghosted his column in the sun but you know a few weeks ago he was he was sort of sticking into the old

test match wearing you know a scarf wrapped around his face almost you know hiding really incognito now he's on full show in front of 25,000 people in the middle of the home of cricket so that's it looks like a huge huge step forward lots of photographs in the press

and so on I mean he's you know he's had a horrible time hasn't he? I mean he's got some bad injuries there but he has made that step from hiding away to being to going out in public which must be a great thing for him I think he's loving it and the players who to them he was a hero in 2005 a childhood hero

as they were growing up with the current team they've loved having him around so it's great absolutely great that's the point so many of the England players would say that their earliest memory of cricket is 2005 and flintsoff will be their hero and just the other thing we often exist in a cricket bubble, we think that the whole country knows everything's going on with the England

team and cricket in this country. I still reckon if you ask most people to name a cricketer, they would either say Geoffrey Boycott, Ian Botham or Andrew Flintoff. And for that reason, it's absolutely fantastic to have him back in the game. And it might be, he had rather drifted away from mainstream cricket, hadn't he, that maybe this, we will see more of him, actually, more involved in the England setup, albeit just in a kind of a casual sort of way. But it's been really good, really good to see him. and I'm sure really good for him to feel back to. Thanks, gents.

The TMS podcast from BBC Sounds. Well, you can watch highlights of the England, New Zealand One Day Internationals on the BBC IPlayer, as well as England's women's series win over Sri Lanka. And also on the eye player, you can see the greatest game telling the story of England's 2019 World Cup final win. Now, still more cricket to come. We've got the one-day cup final on Saturday on the BBC Sport website on the app. England's one-day internationals against Ireland from Wednesday.

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