Test Match Special - England in pole position for a series win

Episode Date: August 29, 2026

Daniel Norcross is joined by former England captain Michael Vaughan, former Pakistan captain Ramiz Raja and the BBC's chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew to look back at day three of the Second Test between England and Pakistan at Lord's.Hear from Dan Lawrence who hit an unbeaten 50, his second half-century in as many Tests on a day where less than 25 overs were bowled.We also speak to England's fielding coach Sarah Taylor.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Get more with BBC podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like evil genius, good, bad billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Why don't we look back now on the third day?

A second test match between England and Pakistan at Lords. I am joined by Jonathan Agnew, Michael Vaughan, Rami's Raja. To look back on a truncated day, just the 96 runs scored. Four wickets went down. 24 overs, pretty much we had. So refunds for the customers here. 50% refunds is pretty much the only bright spark on the horizon. But a day in which Pakistan has stuck at it.

stuck at it. They picked up those four wickets. Indened didn't get away, but Dan Lawrence did star with a bat, with an unbeaten 50, and it began early with the dismissal of Emilio Gay, who has proven to be one of the unluckiest cricketers around. Michael Vaughn, we talked about this a little bit on air.

That was a horrible ball to face, wasn't it, a shooter that did for him? Yeah, I mean, it'll probably be thinking in the dress room and watching back, why me? There was not one of the ball that rolled along the the deck, and it's not happened throughout the whole game, That's all the overs that England batted, all the overs that Pakistan batted, not too many from Pakistan,

but enough to suggest that Emilio Gay has been very, very unlucky. I mean, he's at that stage of his test career, five test matches in. He got a nice 50 here against New Zealand. And in recent times, he's got in and he's got out. He got caught down the leg side in the first, and he gets a roller in the second. He must be thinking, oh, his test cricket kind of working its way against me. But he's just got to keep believing. I think the way that he played, and he gets to 31, particularly yesterday.

30 not out that he arrived here with today. I thought he played well. You know, he's not a player that I'm looking at thinking, oh, do I see him at the minute having 50 to 80 test matches? Possibly not. But I think it's worth him giving him, obviously, the next test match. And if I was then, I'd give him the three games in South Africa

just to find out. That'd be nine test matches. And I think that's fair to find out about a player. If you suddenly start swapping and changing after six games on the back of, you know, the conditions have been pretty tough about him this summer. on the back of a couple of misfortunes. I think it would be fair for him to get the winter series in South Africa. And I think then you can make a more of a sensible judgment call on him.

John, you rate him, don't you? Yeah. It just got really unlucky today. I could have wet for him. I mean, that was a brutal ball, wasn't it? I mean, actually, funnily enough, in that brief period, we've seen the pitch to all sorts of things. I don't know whether it is just the overheads or what it was,

but more seamed, there were balls that were rearing with hitting Rizwan, standing up to the stumps. I mean, it was a completely different pitch, really. Talk we've seen the last couple of days, but that was just a horrible thing. And I do like him. I mean, we haven't seen him against proper pace bowling yet. And that's why I agree with Michael. I think South Africa would be good for him. Let's have a look. He's a tall man. He's a confident fellow. But how does he play the short ball? How does he handle that sort of attack? I like to see that. He plays some nice, attractive shots, particularly through the offside.

We know from having chatted to him out there and having some of you, some of having worked with him on the 100, he's certainly a character. He's, yeah, he's confident, isn't he? And that's a good thing too. So I'd just like to persevere with him, but that was a cruel, a very cruel delivery, and no one could have played that. It was a cruel delivery, but Rames, did Pakistan exploit the conditions well enough? Because although that was the only one that really shot and kept low,

but there were still lots of exaggerated movement. I mean, in the day, well, the bowling figures at the moment, Mohammed Abbas, three more wickets, three for 48, Kouram Shazad 256 Mahmad Ali 2 for 54 really the only three bowlers properly used but a couple of overs of spin And did they get as much out of it as they should have done 177 for seven which England closed on Looks like a good day for Pakistan, but was it? I mean it's been a problem because You know in that phase they could have exerted more pressure But we've seen Pakistan to be on and off

So three or four good overs and then you know there were easy runs to be having so the pressure was was released and I agree I mean it could have been a lot better day for them more wickets but even now I mean seven wickets down England are not struggling at all I mean look at the overall picture it's it's a bad one for Pakistan and so something to gee them up I I guess it was a day where they felt that you know they were a bit competitive courtesy the conditions the pitch the way England batted it's a difficult pitch to ban on I'm sitting at the end down there was watching the game Stuart Broad came in as Ali

husband was brought into the attack and Stuart said if this had happened to me in these conditions and a spinners brought on I'd walk straight off the field it did see a bit of a strange choice didn't it unless yeah and he got two overs for 17 they've bowled a lot of overs well they have but come on look at the ball was nipping around all over the place you know you're just got you've got they've had to keep going I'm afraid but he got he got he got whacked you know there's two overs no pressure well Salfrez Armad said yes today didn't he that if they could roll England for another 70 or 80 and chase around about 350 then a miracle could happen now actually they're not a million miles from that I mean

England have added what is that well 96 today and I know they've only lost the four wickets but come back tomorrow and can go bang bang and it could be all done is it to get 357 they would have to bat what at least 100 overs right? 110 120 overs in three innings so far they've about 75. I'm trying to help, Ram. I'm just giving you a realistic picture. The odds are against it, like Ram's saying. Yeah, okay.

Well, let's, I'll take that. You're almost as to say, you could give Pakistan three innings and the possible won't win this game because that's a huge target. On the pitch that we've seen today, I mean, 357 they're in front England with three wickets to go. We saw what Josh Tong did on that, that final wicket partnership with Gus Atkinson. So you would think England are going to get another thing.

30 or 40 and 400 be the chase and you know it's going to be it's all the order for Pakistan to look what you want from Pakistan is just a little bit of something sure you know you want a little bit of spirit and you want someone to go and get a 70 or 80 and just get them something that they could go okay yeah we've we've lost but we can take that to ways best so this is a this is a tour where Pakistan have arrived with a team that is not that good but what you can take away from this tour is a one of two individuals stepping up to the play playing nicely and you know that's all I can see from Pakistan this now this pitch isn't going to get better

you know it's not suddenly going to arrive on day four it's going to be a road and you've got an England quartet of quick bowlers that have been rested up and they'll be they'll be trying to get some some more wickets into their averages so it's not going to be easy for Pakistan well and his also told us earlier today that this pitch is showing the same amount of movement between over's 21 and 50 pretty much as it is between 1 and 20 that is very unusual And it's just kept on being incredibly hard to bat on this pitch has become a source of some concern. My concern for Pakistan and they were embarrassed yesterday that it could get even worse tomorrow for them. They're not careful.

If they arrive with any kind of negativity and start thinking about what happened in the first innings, you know, it could get really messy for them. That's their kind of their goal tomorrow is to make sure that us, the pundits, fans, aren't using that word embarrassing. We want to see a little bit of spirit from them. It might be still opening bats went down or are we? We don't really know what's happened to. No, where he is. Is he here?

There's been a updateer's there. No idea. No news on him. I mean, that was a disappointment. Yeah, I mean, you know, we've talked about, you know, being, you know, inspirational in the dugout. And he's a senior player. I don't know how bad he is, but we've seen, you know, guys with worse injuries come out and play for the team. We haven't seen that.

Now, I want to go back to the pitch a bit because, look, we had a terrible pitch here against New Zealand. It got a demerit point. It was that bad. The pitches at Lord's been getting. heading more and more and more difficult and these odds been given us all the numbers on that over the course of this test match and we have had a this is from the MCC regarding the pitch so as a where there's a lot of pitch chat currently so keen to share the pitch action plan they've got a pitch action plan guys okay and it's it's mostly management speaks on I'm going to bore you with all of it but it comes under the headings things like engagement of external expertise if I was the ground staff I would be a bit jittery about that because I know a bit about that. I bumped into Richard Robinson, the groundsman from Hedley, this morning. So he's been down having to look at the surface.

Well, it says independent specialists are identified and a programme of site visit set up to conduct a thorough assessment of the square. I think I know what Michael Hunt, the previous groundsen might have said to have someone else poking around his square. I don't think it's in any kind of... I think it's just, obviously, at the moment, you would say that Hedley is possibly the best pitch in the country. It seems to have the best challenge for batterers, bowlers.

it's got good carrying pace and I think that's sensible, isn't it, to get the ground staff down from the venue that seems to, at the minute, have the best pitch to say, okay, is there anything that you're noticing here that we could do? Or is there anything that you do to your pitches that we could add to ours? I think that's a sensible move. I think they also want us to understand that this shouldn't be seen in isolation. They say our ground is not alone in facing challenges around pitch preparation. And the executive have had productive conversations with their counterparts at other venues

facing similar challenges. Well, I think that's a fair point. I mean the pictures have not anywhere actually been particularly good this summer in test matches. Next point, an establishment of an agronomy advisory group. Can you explain that word place? Yeah, so it's a sort of technical term for horticulture really. Soil, soil, it's gastrointatus. So they're bringing four to six leading experts with diverse skill sets and knowledge being set up to provide independent advice to the club's management.

So they're acknowledging that this is a serious issue. There's investment in data informed monitoring and analysis. Is Andy involved in that? I'd like to hope so. A phased pitch relaying program and thing that really caught my eye, permanent drop-in pitches. As set out in the MCC cricket strategy, the club is also investing in the design and manufacture of drop-in pitch trays for use at Lord. So they are coming at it from a number of different angles. Do you think it has reached a point, Jonathan, having watched...

lots and lots of test cricket here at Lords, that there's something of a crisis. Well, it has changed. There's no question about that. I mean, I think we've been saying it changed, particularly ever since the outfield was made this very, very porous, sandy stuff. For the drainage.

Correct, and the water just goes straight through when it rains. Yes, which is great, but it also sucks all the water out of the square. It just takes it all with it, does it? And Lorde isn't alone. I mean, all the chess match grounds have got, I've got this type of outfield now. And I think that has really added to the problem for the ground staff. If they keep that square wet and which they have to do if it's draining away,

if it suddenly get a lot of wet weather as well, that compounds the issue for preparing pitches. I mean, I'm not a groundsman, but there's no doubt that the pitches here have changed. They just have. The thing for me was that the New Zealand pitch here looked at the time. I think Michael went out there with me. I think of the toss, it just looked, look, what we described it as looking like an old-fashioned hair transplant. It just like stuff had been planted in, you know, it looked really rough. It looked bad.

This looked like a normal pitch. I mean, had some grass on it, which given the weather and so one, is not necessarily surprising. But at least it was even, it was flat. It looked like a cricket pitch, whereas the other one didn't. And the first couple of days, I think it's played okay, isn't it? I mean, it's done a little bit, given the weather. And certainly the first day to have expected the ball to. moved and seen around but what's happened here is really surprising and not it's not

become a minefield but it's suddenly behaved in a surprising fashion you don't often see a ball seem more on the third day than on the second day for instance that doesn't really happen does it that must you to be the atmospheric you would have to be yeah I think you've got to be it might be this week this is been a week where the clouds have been around there's been more so you'd expect move each ball could be a different thing as well so they might might be that this particular ball is susceptible to swinging a lot or whatever it may be. So there are, there's a lot more to it than simply digging up the square.

But isn't it interesting where drop-in pitches were viewed upon with such massive suspicion? Just a few years ago, Carrie Packer introduced them, of course, for World Series, dropping them into AFL football grounds. It's any way they could get any cricket played. And here now at the headquarters of cricket, lords of all places, talking of using drop-in pitches. So that's a really interesting. It's a problem around the world as well. If you look at some of the iconic venues, you look at the MCG. We had a two-day test match.

That was a pitch that I've never seen now. I've seen pictures where the ball has zipped around, but nothing like what we saw in the Boxing Day test last time. Sydney, the last couple of years, there's been a pitch that's not quite played. Perth was lively as well. Perth is a new stadium. That's a lively day.

They also have a different ball, though, don't they as well? Yeah, yeah. It's like a perfect storm happening. Australia really you know I think it's it's clearly what I like is that you know they're gathering information from the expertise from different venues I think that's and I'm sure they've always done that all the ground stuff are very close across all the grounds across the UK they will will have a kind of I'm sure a WhatsApp group kind of communicating and I think it's really good that they pass on information to

but for them to have a pitch described as unsatisfactory wasn't it I think the New Zealand picture that'll shake them here you know that they'll really feel that you know the Lord's described unsatisfactory, you know, that's not something that they've probably ever had before. So that will have rattled them here. Well, you know, you spend 20, 30 million pound on a stand in the corner. There's no point in having that if you don't have. No, absolutely.

It's that you can watch for a few days. If it's going to be that you're spending all this money on the great surrounds of the stands and all the hospitality that comes with it here at Lords, well, you know, if you're getting all that right, but out in the middle, which is your bread and butter, you're not getting right. going to be a problem. They're going to grow the drop-ins, aren't they? On the nursery end, which people know here is the ground at the back where the nets are.

That's where the drop-ins, you know, they're going to go ferry them through and drop them in, literally drop them into the main square. Interesting to watch the television cameras will be down the first time that happens. It's quite an operation. I've seen it happen in New Zealand. Massive things come out in these trays. Must weigh a ton. Drop them in, massive of tons.

I don't think they carry them. No, I'd like to hear that. One thing, they will. get it right here. You know, they'll have a team of people that will know what they're doing and overtime. They'll, they'll absolutely, I mean, they've got the funds to be able to put money into it as well. They will get it right. Well, one person today who did, I don't say master the conditions, but actually batted really well in them, is a man probably was one of the most surprising selection for the squad really, Dan Lawrence coming in as England's spin bowling all rounder.

And his position in the team is fairly precarious Rammies, of course, because Jacob Bethel could come back in. or you'd expect him to come back in. And he average his high 20s. Well, today, pick at the battered by a mile, unbeaten on 50, off 66 balls, 6-4s, couple of sixes. He didn't get into his shell. He paid very few false shots, it felt like.

He found a method on a very difficult surface with the ball seeming about. What was your assessment? Yes, my assessment was there. It was, you know, he saw freedom from him. There was a plan, which was based on aggression. And he didn't really play the condition. conditions of the pitch. It was important from that point of view for Pakistani batsmen.

You know, if they come and bat, that's how you should be batting. Forget about the variations of the pitch. You've got to treat this as any other job and make sure that you watch the ball, which he did. And I think it was ultra aggressive at times when the situation demanded it to be because there's a kind of pitch where you need to slog a few, where you need to show a bit of ticker, common sense, good rotation of strike. We saw that from him. It was a very, very good Yeah, I think if you look back to the Oval Test match against New Zealand, it was crying out for a Dan Lawrence selection that week. You know, someone that would bat in the middle on his home venue, 500 to date at that stage, playing great for Surrey. So I've really enjoyed the fact that Marcus North has brought him into this England team.

Clearly, they like his offspin as well. You know, you've seen a lot of his offspin at Surrey. He's a better ospiner that people give him. I guess it's his action that makes his look. But he's actually releasing. Better than he looks. He's a couple of overs that he bowled at head, and he got nice drift, nice kind of dip.

So I think they'll come in really handy in time for England. But what I like about his batting is he seems to read the game. So today he walked out there. He's on Nort. He knew that Mohammed Abbas, with a keeper, stub back was going to land it on that lens. So he gambled and Dan's down. He got a bit fortunate.

It went down to third off the thick out of outside edge. But he read the play nicely. It was the right way to play at that moment. And he's clearly got a kind of quirky technique that has worked for him. So he's very confident. He knows his scoring areas. That dance down and put him over extra cover

was a Harry Brook style shot. And when you've got a player like Dan Lawrence who's in full confidence, he's clearly a better player than when he played for England last time. And when he opened the bat and we all were like, oh, that's just not fair. Not fair on him. I think he's a really good selection

and I think he's going to have a period in the England side that we're going to enjoy watching him back. I think he's one of those players that you look down quite enjoy watching Dan Lawrence bat. And I think in some, I think his off-spin's going to come in very handy indeed. Just a quick thing on Lawrence. Previously in his test career and in his first class career, had a much, much better record against spin than pace. And in this series, which has been dominated by Seymours,

75 runs without being dismissed from 123 balls that he's faced from Pakistan's Seema. So he's just been out once to a bowler, scored 118 runs, had that run out in the first innings. But good return. Other than that, there weren't too many other England batting performances to get too excited about. Harry Brooke made 34 before he was caught by Mahmard Rizwan standing up. There's a decent catch from the keeper Rammies and it's a plan that's been working in keeping Harry Brooke honest and deep in his crease and it picked up the wicket. Yeah, it's difficult pitch for the keeper also because the ball is staying low and rearing from the length as well. And he had won a few, Rezwan behind the stumps.

He had carried on, and was it really a smart catch because he rose with the height of the ball and took it quite neatly. I mean, he was brave today, actually. I mean, in a truncated day. Every time I looked up, I just saw him on the ground trying to stop balls that had kept low or ones that had risen high.

I mean, he took off his glove at one point, and he saw his every single finger had tape and stuff on it. He's a bit of a fighter, actually. I like Mohamed Rezwan. because he's got a lot to offer and he'll not flinch away, so he'll take up the task and be in that difficult situation for Pakistan. He's paid quite a few wonderful innings over the years,

especially in subcontinent conditions, but these conditions will challenge every Pakistan, including Rizwan. But it's keeping was outstanding actually. There was a lot of query, question mark regarding whether he's fit enough to take the gloves because he's struggling in the last series, but here I think it's really done with.

And they actually need somebody to have a bit of fight and mongrel and a bit of noise in them because they're a sort of anonymous team. It's not just about the sort of pedestrian nature of the skills at the rock show. It's just there's no, where's the character? Yeah, body language and all, yeah, absolutely. You've got to take pride in playing test cricket

for your country and we didn't see that. I didn't see that. I mean, it's a very, very unusual with playing the game, Pakistan have always been renowned for a bit of fight and feistiness and taking the game to the opposition. We haven't seen that at all in the series. Before we finish our wrap up, Andy Sautsfons was alongside. I don't suppose today was one that really got your statistical juices flowing, did it? No, not really, other than continuing this trend of wickets tumbling on this ground at a pretty much historically unprecedented rate.

those deviation stats we were talking about, looking at the over 21 to 50 in tests in England. There's never been a match with more lateral movement for the seamers, and we've seen increasingly inconsistent bounce. And in fact, Pakistan's bowlers have extracted more movement in the second innings than they did in the first. So, yeah, the pitch has not eased at all, if anything, it's got more difficult in terms of that lateral movement. So yeah, but not a lot statistically. Yeah, I thought England batted about as well as you could do and still lost three wickets for 80 odd. Three or four, wasn't it?

Oh, it was four in the area. Yeah, so I mean, yeah, there's, you'd have to say that they did pretty well. If they're batting well and getting 80 odd for four, then you sort of fear. Well, it's going to be difficult for Pakistan. Things to look out for in their earnings. Since the 19th century, there's only been two teams that have been bowled out. in under 50, it was in four consecutive innings. Oh.

Happened to Bangladesh in 2018 and Sri Lanka in 2016, including three innings in their series against England here. So that's something for Pakistan to try to avoid. And that 30-year gap since their last 50 opening stand, looking at the conditions, it might be a miracle if they can break that. So in the absence of a stat of the day, you're anticipating a stat of tomorrow? I am, yes. Yeah. Well, that's great. That's great.

BBC Podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows like evil genius, good, bad billionaire and you're dead to me with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad free with an Amazon music subscription. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So let's get some reaction. Alison Mitchell has been speaking with Dan Lawrence. Dan well battered and on off day with the lead you've got now there. You're in a strong position. to win the match tomorrow? Yeah, absolutely.

It was a tricky day, sort of coming on for half an hour, 40 minute intervals. But yeah, overall, decent day and the lead looks pretty big now. How did you manage to pace your innings today for your 50? I saw the ball was doing quite a lot off the wicket. So I was always going to try and be quite aggressive today. There were certain spells I tried to get through like Abbas and I was just hoping for a bit of luck.

And thankfully I got some and then I knew I had to gamble a few times. times and thankfully a few of the shots paid off. Was there a sense of trying to get onto the front foot for those couple of sixes say and score quickly when a ball could do anything? Yeah, it was more just trying to catch their bowlers off guard a little bit, play normally and then kind of jump out of my bunker every now and then.

Yeah, again, it was one of those surfaces where it was pretty tricky to try and survive on all day. So it was one of them where you just had to take a couple of punts and thankfully they paid off. Was Amelia gay a bit unlucky? Yeah, I mean, he played beautifully last night, Emilio. fought really hard for the team and took a little bit of the shine off the ball for us. I think sometimes in cricket you just can't help that.

I don't think anyone in the world sitting that ball and hopefully gets the luck next week. Two years out of the test side for you, since you've come back in, how different does it feel? Yeah, it's obviously pretty different with a different coach and a few different faces around the group. It's been a great atmosphere this week and the last week as well. The boys are really enjoying it and yeah, hopefully we can come tap off tomorrow with a nice win. And what's sort of the messaging for you batting at number six and what's your understanding of your role?

Well, it's a bit more of a familiar role for me. I bat middle order for my county, Surrey. Yeah, I mean, it's just play how I've been playing all summer. I've been in really good form for Surrey and I've come into this test series with quite a bit of confidence. So I was obviously a bit gutted that I gave it away last week at Headingley and I'm glad to have contributed today. Going into tomorrow then, big chance.

Do you believe the bowling attack can take 10 wickets in a day? it will take a bit of weather. Yeah, I think so. I mean, all four of them are in brilliant form. They've bowed beautifully throughout the series individually. I think first of all, we've got to try and eke out as many runs as possible in the morning and try and take the game to Pakistan a little bit. And then I think if they bolt to their potential, our boys, I think we can get it done tomorrow, yeah.

Good luck, thanks. Well played today. Thank you. Cheers. One of the big talking points has been the trend of wicketkeepers standing up to the stumps with Jamie Smith showing some impressive skills. He's been working with England's assistant coach, the legendary World Cup and Ash's winning wicket keeper Sarah Taylor. Taylor has been speaking to Isha Gura about the work

she's been doing with Jamie Smith, but first, Isha asked how much she is enjoying her role with the England men's team. I've absolutely loved it. Obviously came as a little bit of a shock, but absolutely jumped to the chance as soon as I was asked and the boys have made it unbably. It's just a great experience really. And I'm learning a lot. I'm still very young in my coaching career, but yeah, it's been a pretty good summer. You're looking very relaxed on the balcony, I have to say, watching on there. after obviously being involved as a player.

I was very fortunate to play alongside you, but this is a very different environment for yourself. Let's talk about the keeping, because a lot of attention has been focused on Jamie Smith and him standing up to the stumps. Obviously, you did it a lot in your career. You were the best at it. What have you noticed in his game that you've been working with him on?

And how often has he done it previously? I don't think he has done it that much previously. So this was obviously a little bit of a shock come this summer, where the services actually almost told him to go and stand up to the stumps. But we've worked extremely hard. Every training session we've had, he's been doing keeping, and standing up has obviously become a little bit more prevalent now. So in terms of kind of technical stuff, I mean, he's an extremely good keeper.

He's got an excellent pair of hands, so it was just in case of enhancing what he already had and keeping him slightly more still than what he used to. The direction of which he faces was slightly open and I think we've got a little bit more down the wicket. So there's just a couple of things that we've tinkered with. It's nothing major, I promise you, it is just more consistency in what he's doing. Yeah, just that push to try and do some form of standing up every single session that we do. And again, he's the one that's pushed it.

So he's working extremely hard and reaping all the benefits out there. Well, you can tell us because you did it so much. What are you looking at behind the stumps? What is important to you in terms of that being able to take those catches and having that reflex and that instinct, I guess, behind the stumps? For me, I think if the head's still, then the hands are in a good position to catch the ball. If the ball's moving left and right and up and down, I think you have to be then as still as possible. And yeah, Jamie's worked extremely hard at that.

But also, I think he's also six foot two. So you have to almost use what you've got. He has got a slightly wider stance the most because he can, which means he can access the leg side a little bit more, which is nice. But again, I can't harp on enough about how to stay extremely still and just trust your hands, just absolutely trust your hands, and assume that you will catch it. And then hopefully you'll be nice and aggressive with it.

Come on then, while we've got you. Yeah, no, come on. You're going to have to have the mic close to your mouth as you get down. but if you can just, the camera can just go on you, come on, just show us, you know, the kind of position you get yourself into. I'm doing this right now, am I? Yes. No, so obviously it's a, I would personally set up with my left foot for a right-handed batter on, um, there was the traditional that it was off-stump. It's going a little bit more leg stump, um, just because obviously then your head is, is over off-stump or just outside, that kind of fourth stump line, which is actually

what we ask the bowlers to to, so actually you might as well just be there. So that's, that's, that's, how I would set up keepers nowadays and also you are now generally a lot more towards the leg's side so that is again another benefit and a little bit of a cheat code and then obviously with the ball moving you can't move your head that quick either

so it's trusting that your hands can go so if you're nice and aggressive and attack on angles you are more likely to catch it if the ball moves but you have to trust your hands so I haven't actually got in any position that you needed me to be which is probably a good thing but ultimately

that kind of middle to level leg stump is where that left foot should start really. Because that's something I would say about you. You were so good with your hands. You get into position, but then you had the instinct to just move your hands to the right position. And what I'm seeing with Jamie Smith, obviously it's tough, facing 80 mile an hour bowling, it's quick.

How difficult is it here at Lord especially with the slope, with the uneven bouncer that we've seen? And how does he judge it to be able to get his hands in the right position? So I think, ultimately, because it is so quick, a lot of the times you can't actually look at the ball, you have to look at an area in front of you and then trust that your hands are going to get there. I'd love to say it's this massively technical thing. It is pure trust and the skill of that wicketkeeper at the time. Everyone does it differently as well, but in terms of what I've said previously about staying as still as you possibly can, and then

being really, really aggressive with the angle that you catch the ball. Because obviously, if you catch it behind you, the deviation essentially should be a little bit more. But if you catch it at an angle and you're aggressive with that, in theory, should be a lot closer to you. So yeah, that is ultimately a wicket keeping. And what is the expectation for him? Because, you know, it's not easy. And, you know, it's coming down at, what, 80 miles an hour. And he's having to judge the bounce.

Sometimes we've seen an uneven bounce here at Lords, that the slope's been quite tricky. What is the expectation if he does miss something or it doesn't quite go in as he wants it to? I mean, look, given where he was at the start of the summer, I'm not saying the expectation is low at all whatsoever, but I'm expecting him to take them all. But I'm very aware that that is also not possible.

He's human, and also this is a project for him, and he's been working extremely hard, and yeah, he will not get it right. And he knows that, and ultimately you look at it quite factually. Why did he miss that? What did he do wrong? Rather than, I guess, being annoyed that he's probably missed it, but ultimately he's doing a service to the bowlers when he's standing up, and I think I mentioned it yesterday just to enhance the skill of the bowlers by standing up and keeping the batsman in the crease and that is ultimately what he's there to do and yeah

I'll catch it I suppose I'm sure you're a great sounding board for him what about when he's standing back then what are the things that that you've seen that maybe none of us would have noticed he's just moving slightly more he's genuinely moving slightly more sideways body position just more down the wicket he was slightly open before and more aggressive You'll know me when it came to my keeping. I like to be extremely aggressive, whether that's stood up or back. And that's now what he's giving.

So there's slightly more energy in what he's doing, creating better angles in how he catches it. And ultimately, hopefully a lot more consistency with the repetition of doing what he's doing all the time. So he's doing really well. Yeah, you're right that a lot of people probably don't notice the difference in the changes, but we certainly do on the balcony. And yeah, we're just really proud of all the hard work

that he's put in. You talk about energy there. You were quite a vocal keeper, happy to have a few words. He's not so much that. Are you expecting him to be a bit more vocal out on the field? No, because it's not his personality. You can't change someone's personality. I think actually what you want from him is the energy

to come from him in terms of his body movements, how he's running into the stumps and catching the ball. He's asking for the ball all the time. I think that's a lot more important than potentially some words that come out of his mouth. And that has definitely changed. He's a lot more energetic and he's just putting in a hard shift for the team that, again, he has absolutely pushed himself. What have you learned about yourself as a coach?

Through that question in there. What have I learned about myself as a coach? I'm a lot more patient than I thought I was. I think you come in to these environments thinking that you should know everything because of your experience and what you did and how you did it. and the coaches that you've learned from throughout your career. But we're all still evolving, we're all still learning. Even the coaches up there that have been coaching for a very long time are all still learning. And the game's developing. And given the fact that we're not playing, we have to learn from the players.

So, yeah, it's actually been quite nice because you do fret. You think, I hope I know enough. But actually, I'm learning. I'm evolving as a coach. and there's still plenty to come hopefully. You've been part of high performance environments across your career. You know, Ash's winner, a World Cup winner. What's the difference being in the men's environment?

I don't know if there's too much of a difference. I think I'm essentially just coaching the player and I think that's how it always has to be, whether it's a men's environment or a female environment. Like you say, I'm lucky enough to do other franchise stuff and learning from a lot of the coaches and a lot of the players. but ultimately I've clicked with Jamie and that's amazing. That doesn't happen often, but I am genuinely coaching the player,

whether it's, I've had the luck. I've been able to work with players like Beth Mooney and Richard Gosch was unbelievable. And yeah, so I'm just extremely lucky at the minute. And to be fair, nothing's really different. It is purely the personality and, yeah, the cricket. It's great to see you doing it and thriving as well. What's next for Sarah Taylor? That is a great question.

I have absolutely no idea. I would love to do this for as long as I possibly can. Obviously, work with Jamie and then get to work with Joss in the Whiteball stuff. But we shall see. Let's not forget as well. You're an unbelievable batter. I do forget. We're not unbelievable, but I forget that I battered here.

Are they coming to you for tips on batting as well? It's not necessarily tips, but more just the conversations that you have around. You feel freely to talk to them about it, and then they're happy to, they want to talk as well. So what did you do when you do this? What do you do when you played here? And those conversations are great because it does remind me that I did I did used to bat. But it's, yeah, they just want to talk cricket. And that's what's been the beauty of this change room, that they love the game so much.

But yeah, batting is, I mean, I would love to be batting out there again. Not today. But it's something that I do forget that I did. But the conversations have been very good. Well, I can vouch for you. You were a safe pair of hands behind the stumps. It was an absolute pleasure being able to bowl and knowing you were there. So I'm sure it's going to be the same for Jamie as he evolves as a wicketkeeper.

But it's been just really great to chat to you. And so great to see you doing what you're doing. That's Sarah Taylor. Subscribe so you don't miss our podcast, including the view from the boundary with John Sopal. And don't miss highlights on BBC Eye Player. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. What's that saying about not letting the truth get in the way of a good story? Well, I'm Coral Prince and I'm in the way.

Online I catch out some of the biggest names in football holding their tall tails to account but now the tables have turned Can I spot the truth from the lies as those same guys who I try to catch and catch me out? Roll the tapes. I'm Crowell Prince, lie detector

on the Football Daily podcast Listen on BBC Sound. Get more with BBC podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows like evil genius, good bad billionaire and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription.